The first question is what happens to the donated cards?
I've referred them to rule 800.4a, but they are getting hung up with the statement "any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end.". If I am thinking correctly, Zedruu's ability is a one time thing. Once the permanent is donated, it cannot come back and there is no lasting effect that would say otherwise. If Zedruu is bounced or killed the donated permanents do not return to owner's control. Therefore that quoted part of the rule can be skipped.
The second question is what happens to Taniwha if it is phased out when the opponent is killed?
I referred them to rule 702.24: basically stating that the phased out creature is still considered on the battlefield (it doesnt change zones when it phases out, it just cannot be interacted with when phased out) so rule 800.4a would still apply
Please correct me if I am wrong. In either case can you please post a response to the thread listed above to either confirm my thoughts or dispute them?
Zedruu's ability creates a continuous control effect for the targeted player. That control effect will end when that player leaves the game, and the original controller (or whoever had the next most recent control effect) will regain control of the permanent.
If a player who owns a phased-out Taniwha leaves the game, Taniwha will leave the game.
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All control changing effects are continuous, not one-shot, even if they have no stated duration. In that case, their duration is "until the game end." That duration can end as in 800.4a.
Taniwha just won't phase in. It's not considered to exist for the purpose of exiling permanents.
If a player who owns a phased-out Taniwha leaves the game, Taniwha will leave the game.
The owner isn't leaving the game, the person who controlled it when it phased out is leaving the game.
All control changing effects are continuous, not one-shot, even if they have no stated duration. In that case, their duration is "until the game end." That duration can end as in 800.4a.
Taniwha just won't phase in. It's not considered to exist for the purpose of exiling permanents.
The owner isn't leaving the game, the person who controlled it when it phased out is leaving the game.
So if the phased out creature is still on the battlefield (per rule 702.24), wouldn't it be returned to it's owner (still phased out) and then phase back in when its owner's untap step begins?
That would be my interpretation, but I am seeking confirmation from more official sources.
702.24e Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it’s phased in. In particular, effects with “for as long as” durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.
702.24b If a permanent phases out, its status changes to “phased out.” Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist. It can’t affect or be affected by anything else in the game.
These rules don't make it clear what happens to a phased out permanent when a control effect ends because a player leaves the game.
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No, it won't phase back in under its owner's control. It didn't phase out under it's owner's control.
702.24a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap step. During each player’s untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all phased-in permanents with phasing that player controls “phase out.” Simultaneously, all phased-out permanents that had phased out under that player’s control “phase in.”
It doesn't get returned to its owner either.
702.24b If a permanent phases out, its status changes to “phased out.” Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist. It can’t affect or be affected by anything else in the game.
Ok, that sentence I apparently skimmed past makes sense. Then the question becomes where does the phased out permanent go when its controller leaves the game?
The most logical explanation is that the owner regains control, but the permanent cannot phase in (and it also isn't exiled when the other player leaves the game). Is that correct?
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It seems like there would need to be a rule that specifically has phased out permanents return to their owner, if that would happen, because of 702.24b. There isn't such a rule, so it looks like it has no controller.
That feels pretty awkward though, especially if Time and Tide is cast.
When I read the following, I interpret it as meaning it will phase in under its original controller's control:
702.24e Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is
phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it’s phased in. In particular,
effects with “for as long as” durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that
permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.
Am I reading something into this that isn't really there?
Except for this part of the first paragraph of the phasing rules already quoted:
702.24a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap step. During each player’s untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all phased-in permanents with phasing that player controls “phase out.” Simultaneously, all phased-out permanents that had phased out under that player’s control “phase in.”
Which suggests a phased-out permanent can only phase in under the control of whoever controlled it when it phased out. So while the control effect will end (presumably returning control to the original owner), that permanent will just remain phased out until something forces it to phase in (like Time and Tide). This is by no means perfectly clear in the Comp Rules, however. It almost seems like the phased-out permanent would have no controller, but that is nonsensical.
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Ah, I read that but the full implications of it didn't click with me.
I guess a phased out card would have to have no controller if its status puts it completely outside the reach and influence of the game. If it did have a controller, that last sentence of 702.24a would be written as "all phased out permanents he or she controls...", instead of the more awkward construction it has now.
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If a player who owns a phased-out Taniwha leaves the game, Taniwha will leave the game.
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27999777/Zedruu_Donate_ability_questions
All control changing effects are continuous, not one-shot, even if they have no stated duration. In that case, their duration is "until the game end." That duration can end as in 800.4a.
Taniwha just won't phase in. It's not considered to exist for the purpose of exiling permanents.
The owner isn't leaving the game, the person who controlled it when it phased out is leaving the game.
So if the phased out creature is still on the battlefield (per rule 702.24), wouldn't it be returned to it's owner (still phased out) and then phase back in when its owner's untap step begins?
EDH:▼
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Playing: Designing:
Retired:
These rules don't make it clear what happens to a phased out permanent when a control effect ends because a player leaves the game.
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702.24a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap step. During each player’s untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all phased-in permanents with phasing that player controls “phase out.” Simultaneously, all phased-out permanents that had phased out under that player’s control “phase in.”
It doesn't get returned to its owner either.
702.24b If a permanent phases out, its status changes to “phased out.” Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist. It can’t affect or be affected by anything else in the game.
EDH:▼
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Playing: Designing:
Retired:
The most logical explanation is that the owner regains control, but the permanent cannot phase in (and it also isn't exiled when the other player leaves the game). Is that correct?
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That feels pretty awkward though, especially if Time and Tide is cast.
Am I reading something into this that isn't really there?
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Which suggests a phased-out permanent can only phase in under the control of whoever controlled it when it phased out. So while the control effect will end (presumably returning control to the original owner), that permanent will just remain phased out until something forces it to phase in (like Time and Tide). This is by no means perfectly clear in the Comp Rules, however. It almost seems like the phased-out permanent would have no controller, but that is nonsensical.
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I guess a phased out card would have to have no controller if its status puts it completely outside the reach and influence of the game. If it did have a controller, that last sentence of 702.24a would be written as "all phased out permanents he or she controls...", instead of the more awkward construction it has now.
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