I have written a post elsewhere indicating why I run 4 duals in each of the 10 2-colour pairs in a 450-card cube.
I currently have a fair amount of symmetry in terms of the duals that I run (i.e. from which sets), but I'm looking at breaking that up so that each 2-colour pair runs the best 4 duals for that colour-pair. In other words, I want to maintain the same number of lands for each guild but they don't have to be the same set of lands.
I'll take it as given that the ABUR duals will rank at #1 for all 10 colour pairs. I don't run these for various reasons, but I think this is a safe assumption. What I'd be keen to get feedback on is what are the next 4 best duals for each guild? Looking at a variety of cube lists, this seems to be an area where there is less agreement than in other areas.
There are far fewer options for the enemy coloured guilds, with really only the Ravnica karoos being in contention other than those listed above. The allied colour guilds have quite a few more options.
Some initial thoughts are that perhaps B/R and G/R would benefit from the Scars duals as they are fairly aggressive colour pairs. Of course, some colour offer both aggro and control strategies so there may be a tradeoff there in terms of the kind of duals to run.
I also think that most people will recommend the allied coloured fetchlands, which is fine, but which to replace? The painlands across the board? Doesn't that give the allied colours strictly better mana fixing than the enemy colours?
The only filterland I like is the white/black one, the others are usually expendable. In my opinion filters are only good in 2 color decks where both colors have a pretty heavy color commitment. Fetch/Shocklands should always be on this list, as well as the manlands in allied colors. After that, the miscellaneous lands are Fetid Heath and Horizon Canopy, other than that, it's the painlands if it's an aggro pair, or the karoos if it's a control pair.
There are a lot of similarities; but the differences come in each guild's strengths.
Boros favors aggro, so I gave it Battlefield Forge.
Simic favors control and doesn't have a manland, so I gave it Simic Signet.
@meep98324: Thanks for the feedback. I just want to confirm each colour pair, really, since I think that some colour pairs can go in different directions.
@duckpants: Thanks for that - you do have more even balance that some other do. I also want to stay away from signets for now, and I guess that's where others have used karoos.
@Pringlesman: I just wanted to clarify that I'm not necessarily unable to purchase the allied-colour fetchlands. It might take a little time, but I can do it. My current configuration comes from a previously held but misguided sense of trying to 'balance' the guilds in terms of their mana fixing. All 10 guilds get a Ravnica shockland, a Shadowmoor filterland and a painland. In addition, the allied colour pairs get a dual man-land while the enemy colour pairs get a fetchland. I also think that I was originally worried about making 5-colour too easy if I ran 10 fetchlands, but I'm not worried about this anymore.
So, what I'd like to do is work out the correct configuration for each guild, given that I'm not currently planning to pick up the ABUR duals (who knows what the future holds?). As mentioned, I'm also not planning to run signets at this time.
I think I'd like to look at each colour combination individually and consider what archetypes are supported in those colours to determine the correct lands. It's probably what you've already recommended. However, it seems that if a guild contains Blue, it's automatically given the control configuration. But I also view Blue as the aggro-control supporting colour, which certainly has different needs than straight control.
WU
Seems pretty obvious that this is a control pair. I also think that an aggro-control combination is possible. UW fliers could also be something since I've supported that a bit more in Blue than some cubes do. However, it sounds like the advice here is to lean toward the control side of things. The filter land was here (in all colour combinations, really) as a concession to the fact that each colour does have some CC two-drops. However, the target list seems to be:
BR
For my cube, Rakdos is the intended home of hardcore aggro - Rakdos Deck Wins is really the combination of Red Deck Wins and Suicide Black. However, Rakdos also supports a more board-controlling "Sligh" style of deck. I was thinking Blackcleave Cliffs here as well. Given that we'll likely also add Bloodstained Mire, which cards go? Certainly Graven Cairns, but would you remove Lavaclaw Reaches or Sulfurous Springs, given that an all-in aggro deck wants to hit it's mana on turn one and the man-land is slower?
GU
Simic can be controlling but can also be aggro-control, which I've drafted myself (and very much enjoy). Still, Flooded Grove probably isn't awesome for either strategy.
All guilds should have the ABU duals, RAV duals, and fetches. Beyond that, basically what wtwlf said. I run five per guild. Here are my choices (asterisks beside the options I'd choose if I could only choose one):
This is pretty much what I prefer, though I may actually like the Scars duals over the bouncelands where appropriate, and probably the UG bounceland over the filter (small upside with Garruk, Time Spiral, Palinchron, etc. for this midrange guild). I'm also not opposed to the pain lands over the filters in certain combinations where I think they can get away with it (like in the junk colors because these combinations can play both aggro, control and midrange).
I think Horizon Canopy makes it in over the bounce/filter in that combination also.
Seems like a bit of debate in UR over Shivan Reef vs. Cascade Bluffs as the last inclusion. I don't really have a preference here and own both so can make whatever change is best. Looks like Reef has the edge currently.
Yeah, the Belgians originated french fries IIRC and I'm willing to take their advice. French fries most places in Europe are served with mayonnaise in fact, other than here in the UK. But they're SO good with both.
I prefer the aggro land for RW even though control is just as possible in that combination. I keep the maxim in mind to support aggro over control where possible as control doesn't need the help.
I decided that I would reward the allied colors with a bonus fixer. Each pair gets their ABU dual, fetchland, and shockland, then either 2 or 3 additional fixers, and like you, I tried to support the needs of that pair. The Karoo was the most common choice, but not quite universal. Blue has a big artifact subtheme in my cube, so it's fixers tend to be artifact based.
I'm American and I hate ketchup. It makes everything taste only like ketchup. It's almost offensive. Mayo is sweet and tastey and belongs on almost everything!
I'm American and I hate ketchup. It makes everything taste only like ketchup. It's almost offensive. Mayo is sweet and tastey and belongs on almost everything!
/skinny but fat american.
I thought at first that you might not like all the sugar that's in ketchup (this is why kids like it on everything) but then you like sweet Mayo.
I'd try some specialty ketchups that aren't as sweet, see if you like those?
I like ketchup, in moderation. Like, every other french fry gets a dab. When I see people coat their fries like it's batter they're about to deep fry (again!), I get kind of sick inside.
Oh, speaking of batter. Slightly-batter-coated fries are the best. Nice light crisp and flavor.
I like ketchup, in moderation. Like, every other french fry gets a dab. When I see people coat their fries like it's batter they're about to deep fry (again!), I get kind of sick inside.
My cousin once told me that he didn't believe I even liked french fries and that he thought I just used them as an excuse to eat ketchup. I put ketchup on everything that I can possibly put ketchup on.
Am I the only one who likes to eat their french fries with mustard? I haven't seen one mention of it so far.
[/offtopic]
Nope. I like them with Dijon mustard (the real stuff, not 'dijonnaise'). I also like them with ketchup, mayonnaise, and currently sweet chilli sauce. Though one at a time - not all at once. Probably my favourite ever was fritesauce in Belgium. SOOO good!
[/offtopic]
[ontopic]
As for the 4th (or 5th if you're running ABUR duals) RW land, would you really consider Rugged Prairie to be an aggro land? I mean, it obviously helps on turn 2 with WW and RR, as well as RW for Lightning Helix or maybe Goblin Legionnaire. Boros Garrison helps a little with landfall, I guess, if that matters.
@JSexton: For my cube, I disagree with Gruul Turf and Rakdos Carnarium unless you're adding a 5th (or 6th) land to every colour. For me, Copperline Gorge and Blackcleave Cliffs will be the choice in these colours to better support aggro. I also wonder about Golgari Rot Farm over Llanowar Wastes in BG. While Golgari is largely a mid-range guild, it also can be built more aggro, wanting to hit Putrid Leech and other early drops in both colours so I'd prefer the turn 1 fixer. Also, interesting that you mentioned Nantuko Monastery - although it's not a fixer, I've been trying to find a way to fit that card into my cube, but no luck so far. My sense of balancing the colours and guilds is getting in my way there.
I currently have a fair amount of symmetry in terms of the duals that I run (i.e. from which sets), but I'm looking at breaking that up so that each 2-colour pair runs the best 4 duals for that colour-pair. In other words, I want to maintain the same number of lands for each guild but they don't have to be the same set of lands.
I'll take it as given that the ABUR duals will rank at #1 for all 10 colour pairs. I don't run these for various reasons, but I think this is a safe assumption. What I'd be keen to get feedback on is what are the next 4 best duals for each guild? Looking at a variety of cube lists, this seems to be an area where there is less agreement than in other areas.
I currently run the following:
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Adarkar Wastes
U/B
1 Watery Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Underground River
B/R
1 Blood Crypt
1 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Sulfurous Springs
R/G
1 Stomping Ground
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Raging Ravine
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Temple Garden
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Brushland
W/B
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Caves of Koilos
B/G
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Twilight Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Llanowar Wastes
G/U
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Grove
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Steam Vents
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Shivan Reef
R/W
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Arid Mesa
1 Battlefield Forge
There are far fewer options for the enemy coloured guilds, with really only the Ravnica karoos being in contention other than those listed above. The allied colour guilds have quite a few more options.
Some initial thoughts are that perhaps B/R and G/R would benefit from the Scars duals as they are fairly aggressive colour pairs. Of course, some colour offer both aggro and control strategies so there may be a tradeoff there in terms of the kind of duals to run.
I also think that most people will recommend the allied coloured fetchlands, which is fine, but which to replace? The painlands across the board? Doesn't that give the allied colours strictly better mana fixing than the enemy colours?
What do you think?
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WUAzoriousUW
WRBorosRW
UBDimirBU
BGGolgariGB
RGGruulGR
URIzzetRU
WBOrzhovBW
BRRakdosRB
WGSelesnyaGW
UGSimicGU
There are a lot of similarities; but the differences come in each guild's strengths.
Boros favors aggro, so I gave it Battlefield Forge.
Simic favors control and doesn't have a manland, so I gave it Simic Signet.
Hope this helps!
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With that in mind, from your list I would try to do this.
WU
-Mystical Gate
+Azorius Chancery
UB
-Sunken Ruins
+Dimir Aqueduct
BR
-Graven Cairns
+Blackcleave Cliffs
RG
-Fire-Lit Thicket
+Copperline Gorge
GW
-Wooded Basion
+HOrizon Canopy
GU
-Flooded Grove/Yavimaya Coast
+Simic Growth Chamber
UR
-Shivan Reef/Cascade Bluffs
+Izzet Boilerworks
Do you run goldborder cards? If so you can pick up Gold Bordered Flooded Strands and Bloodstained Mires fairly cheeply. (remove pain lands)
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@meep98324: Thanks for the feedback. I just want to confirm each colour pair, really, since I think that some colour pairs can go in different directions.
@duckpants: Thanks for that - you do have more even balance that some other do. I also want to stay away from signets for now, and I guess that's where others have used karoos.
@Pringlesman: I just wanted to clarify that I'm not necessarily unable to purchase the allied-colour fetchlands. It might take a little time, but I can do it. My current configuration comes from a previously held but misguided sense of trying to 'balance' the guilds in terms of their mana fixing. All 10 guilds get a Ravnica shockland, a Shadowmoor filterland and a painland. In addition, the allied colour pairs get a dual man-land while the enemy colour pairs get a fetchland. I also think that I was originally worried about making 5-colour too easy if I ran 10 fetchlands, but I'm not worried about this anymore.
So, what I'd like to do is work out the correct configuration for each guild, given that I'm not currently planning to pick up the ABUR duals (who knows what the future holds?). As mentioned, I'm also not planning to run signets at this time.
I think I'd like to look at each colour combination individually and consider what archetypes are supported in those colours to determine the correct lands. It's probably what you've already recommended. However, it seems that if a guild contains Blue, it's automatically given the control configuration. But I also view Blue as the aggro-control supporting colour, which certainly has different needs than straight control.
WU
Seems pretty obvious that this is a control pair. I also think that an aggro-control combination is possible. UW fliers could also be something since I've supported that a bit more in Blue than some cubes do. However, it sounds like the advice here is to lean toward the control side of things. The filter land was here (in all colour combinations, really) as a concession to the fact that each colour does have some CC two-drops. However, the target list seems to be:
UB
Both Control and Aggro-Control are possible combinations. Again, it seems that the advice is to lean toward mana-fixing for control:
BR
For my cube, Rakdos is the intended home of hardcore aggro - Rakdos Deck Wins is really the combination of Red Deck Wins and Suicide Black. However, Rakdos also supports a more board-controlling "Sligh" style of deck. I was thinking Blackcleave Cliffs here as well. Given that we'll likely also add Bloodstained Mire, which cards go? Certainly Graven Cairns, but would you remove Lavaclaw Reaches or Sulfurous Springs, given that an all-in aggro deck wants to hit it's mana on turn one and the man-land is slower?
RG
Also an aggro pair, but can go mid-range, especially a ramp archetype. Same question as above re: man-land vs. turn one fixing (painland).
GW
Aggro, mid-range. Horizon Canopy seems to be an agreed inclusion. Again, man-land over turn-one fixing (painland or Shards dual?)
WB
No love for the WB controlling strategies?
BG
GU
Simic can be controlling but can also be aggro-control, which I've drafted myself (and very much enjoy). Still, Flooded Grove probably isn't awesome for either strategy.
UR
Any love here for Cascade Bluffs to help hold up Counterspell, Cryptic Command, etc.?
RW
Aggro. Can be controlling but most often just aggro.
Thoughts?
EDIT: BTW, no, I don't run gold-bordered cards. I'm fairly picky.
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1. ABU Duals
2. Shock Lands
3. Fetch Lands
4. Man-Lands (where available)
Aggro Guilds:
5. Scars Duals/Painlands
Control Guilds:
5. Bouncelands
Mid-Range Guilds:
5. Filter Lands
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1 Azorius Chancery
1 Celestial Colonnade *
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Creeping Tar Pit *
1 Graven Cairns
1 Sulfurous Springs *
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Raging Ravine *
1 Horizon Canopy *
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Fetid Heath *
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Twilight Mire *
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Flooded Grove
1 Simic Growth Chamber *
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Izzet Boilerworks *
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Battlefield Forge *
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This is spot on minus the growth chamber. In my experience Flooded Grove is better due to the high number of two cc cards in that color combination.
yep, on the nose. also, outside the big three (duals, fetch) in BW Filter is most important I have found.
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This is pretty much what I prefer, though I may actually like the Scars duals over the bouncelands where appropriate, and probably the UG bounceland over the filter (small upside with Garruk, Time Spiral, Palinchron, etc. for this midrange guild). I'm also not opposed to the pain lands over the filters in certain combinations where I think they can get away with it (like in the junk colors because these combinations can play both aggro, control and midrange).
I think Horizon Canopy makes it in over the bounce/filter in that combination also.
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Seems like a bit of debate in UR over Shivan Reef vs. Cascade Bluffs as the last inclusion. I don't really have a preference here and own both so can make whatever change is best. Looks like Reef has the edge currently.
Surprised to see Boros Garrison over Rugged Prairie but I could give it a try. Will update the list later...
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Here. I've had good success in general following eidolon's advice.
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That seems like a good way to ruin a perfectly good pile of ketchup.
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I prefer the aggro land for RW even though control is just as possible in that combination. I keep the maxim in mind to support aggro over control where possible as control doesn't need the help.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
BG: Golgari Rot Farm, Twilight Mire
BR: Rakdos Carnarium, Graven Cairns, Rakdos Signet
BU: Dimir Aqueduct, Dimir Signet, Talisman of Dominance
BW: Orzhov Basilica, Fetid Heath
GR: Gruul Turf, Raging Ravine, Copperline Gorge
GU: Simic Growth Chamber, Simic Signet
GW: Horizon Canopy, Stirring Wildwood, Nantuko Monastery
RU: Izzet Boilerworks, Izzet Signet
RW:Rugged Prairie, Battlefield Forge
UW: Azorius Chancery, Celestial Colonnade, Nimbus Maze
DO NOT DESECRATE THE SACRED PILE OF KETCHUP!
P.S. Making meatloaf tonight, going to love eating it with PILES OF KETCHUP!
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I'm American and I hate ketchup. It makes everything taste only like ketchup. It's almost offensive. Mayo is sweet and tastey and belongs on almost everything!
/skinny but fat american.
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I thought at first that you might not like all the sugar that's in ketchup (this is why kids like it on everything) but then you like sweet Mayo.
I'd try some specialty ketchups that aren't as sweet, see if you like those?
I like ketchup, in moderation. Like, every other french fry gets a dab. When I see people coat their fries like it's batter they're about to deep fry (again!), I get kind of sick inside.
Oh, speaking of batter. Slightly-batter-coated fries are the best. Nice light crisp and flavor.
[/offtopic]
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My cousin once told me that he didn't believe I even liked french fries and that he thought I just used them as an excuse to eat ketchup. I put ketchup on everything that I can possibly put ketchup on.
Ok, now...
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[/offtopic]
EDH Decks:
- Reya Dawnbringer // - Mistform Ultimus // - Balthor the Defiled // - Urabrask the Hidden // - Mirri, Cat Warrior
Nope. I like them with Dijon mustard (the real stuff, not 'dijonnaise'). I also like them with ketchup, mayonnaise, and currently sweet chilli sauce. Though one at a time - not all at once. Probably my favourite ever was fritesauce in Belgium. SOOO good!
[/offtopic]
[ontopic]
As for the 4th (or 5th if you're running ABUR duals) RW land, would you really consider Rugged Prairie to be an aggro land? I mean, it obviously helps on turn 2 with WW and RR, as well as RW for Lightning Helix or maybe Goblin Legionnaire. Boros Garrison helps a little with landfall, I guess, if that matters.
@JSexton: For my cube, I disagree with Gruul Turf and Rakdos Carnarium unless you're adding a 5th (or 6th) land to every colour. For me, Copperline Gorge and Blackcleave Cliffs will be the choice in these colours to better support aggro. I also wonder about Golgari Rot Farm over Llanowar Wastes in BG. While Golgari is largely a mid-range guild, it also can be built more aggro, wanting to hit Putrid Leech and other early drops in both colours so I'd prefer the turn 1 fixer. Also, interesting that you mentioned Nantuko Monastery - although it's not a fixer, I've been trying to find a way to fit that card into my cube, but no luck so far. My sense of balancing the colours and guilds is getting in my way there.
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