Well, I'm not really sure how good this could potentially be, but it at the very least looks like a lot of fun, and I do think it's worth a look into developing it. After reading some suggestions from posts below, and developing the deck a bit further, it's turning into a pretty cool bant based gifts deck with a Venser/Sun Titan based combo finish.
+ = Infinite Turns & other Shenanigans
Since getting into the format, I've started to discover just how stupidly powerful Eternal Witness is, especially when combined with Green Sun's Zenith. In any case, it randomly occurred to me that Venser, the Sojourner might actually have a place in Modern, if for no reason other than the fact that Blinking Eternal Witness is just stupidly powerful, and neither card is bad on it's own by default.
Just for example of the potential stupidity of Venser + Eternal Witness..
Witness + Venser + Time Warp = infinite turn combo
Witness + Venser + Plow Under = stops opponents from ever drawing cards, while putting 2 lands on top each turn
Witness + Venser + Cryptic Command = insane card advantage, and permanent fog
Witness + Venser + any other normal control spell = still awesome card advantage
Okay, well outside the realm of magical christmas land, this deck is good without venser shenanigans. Playing Eternal Witness in a control deck has always been solid, especially with so many instant speed answers and ways to tutor for things. While hitting the infinite turn lock is pretty sweet, you can typically just win via grinding out card advantage like a traditional non-tempo based control deck would normally do. Jace isn't necessary in here, since you're playing at instant speed for the most part. It's actually relatively easy to set up the infinite turn loop via Gifts Ungiven, although, it'll probably take a turn or two to get online unless you have 8-10 mana available.
Other awesome creatures to blink back with Venser
-Venser, Shaper Savant, the planeswalker's namesake gives you a bounce every turn, allowing you to short an opponent's mana supply, or keep just about anything you need off the board for +2.
-Coiling Oracle is a better wall of omens in this deck, since it effectively ramps, draws, and functions as a card advantage engine and early game blocker. Also tutorable via Green Sun's Zenith.
-Vendilion Clique gives you tons of control of your opponents hand when combined with the blink Function.
-Stoneforge Mystic gets to be reused with Venser
-Kitchen Finks staves off aggro, then gets blinked giving you more life, and removing persist counters.
-Trinket Mage gives you extra Engineered explosives/Chalices/spellbombs/ Pithing needles
Thoughts on development
Obviously, this would require being built in a control-heavy shell with plenty of permission, but I think the inevitability and late-game card advantage can be unreal, even in a format as crazy as this. Gifts ungiven fits perfectly with the witness/recursion theme, and instant speed gameplan.
I haven't really played this much, i've just been messing around with a few decklists, but I just felt it was something cool to share, since it's a really "fun" idea even if it's never going to be perfectly competitive. I've listed a preliminary list below just as an "idea" more than anything else. I do think it has at least some potential as a deck. 5 mana isn't out of question for any control deck in this format, especially if you're playing with late-game in mind. Especially when you have at least some options for ramping in mind as well.
really mana intensive.. plus venser will get killed pretty soon after he comes into play.
Obviously, but that's why you play the control route. Even if Venser gets killed after coming into play, he will still gain you value 9x out of 10 even if he does get killed. Second, you play heavy ** stress the heavy part ** control and more or less play Venser as your finisher. I'm not sure you would even try to play Time Warp or Plow Under, but simply playing a Bant control deck with Cryptic Commands, Witnesses, and Venser as a 3-of could be *enough*.
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Needs Wrath of God or something to actually have a chance of casting Venser against aggro. It's not amazingly synergistic with a plan involving creatures, but I don't think you can really have another choice. I'd suggest some signets or something as well; you don't have a ton of ramp as it is and you're going to need all the help you can get to get to casting Venser.
Needs Wrath of God or something to actually have a chance of casting Venser against aggro. It's not amazingly synergistic with a plan involving creatures, but I don't think you can really have another choice. I'd suggest some signets or something as well; you don't have a ton of ramp as it is and you're going to need all the help you can get to get to casting Venser.
Not necessarily. I mean, you can realistically just counter most of their plays, then simply path/bant charm/ chump block their other plays.
I don't see the point of signets. This is a control deck more than a tempo or combo deck. The goal isn't to play Venser Early, but rather, take control of the game via permission and the small creature package, then close out the game after stabilizing via venser. As I mentioned however, this isn't for the purpose of comboing out really fast. If you want that, play Elves or Hypergenesis. But being able to combo with 3 cards that are individually good, is pretty cool at the very least.
I mean I probably should stress this again. This is simply a bant control deck, that just so happens to take advantage of Venser's ability. Even without resolving venser, it's still going to control the game, get a lot of good cards back when casting witness, and do some awesome things. I will say, that I think Gifts could have a place in here however. Definitely something I forgot about that would be awesome with the Sun Titan/Time Warp/Witness package that's already a part of the deck.
** Edited - added a small gifts package and a single wrath. Definitely seemed like it was a good idea.
Needs more Jace and less cute. Why would I want to play this over a more traditional Bant list with Jace, Clique, and SFM?
needs moar finks
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Needs more Jace and less cute. Why would I want to play this over a more traditional Bant list with Jace, Clique, and SFM?
It's just an entirely different strategy. Comparing apples to oranges here.
This gains more card advantage than the Bant deck would, and plays more counterspells/control effects than a bant mystic deck would.
As far as "cute" there really is only 1 cute card in here, which is Time Warp as a 1-of. Everything else in here outside Venser has been an Extended staple at some time or another.
I'm not here to say that Mystic is a bad card, but look beyond standard and current extended trends. I don't agree with Jhoira about everything he says, but you really need to look beyond the stoneforge mystic trend (yes... it's a great card, but it's definitely a trend more than anything else right now).
In any case, I'm not saying that this is the best of anything, or you should drop your decks and play this since it's going to dominate the meta from here out. This is a thread for the purpose of developing ideas on how to build this.. With a headstart of playing a non-tempo oriented control deck (believe it or not, they do exist contrary to popular belief).
I think the whole Blink thing is cute especially Venser because he's a 5 CMC planeswalker who can't protect himself which has been historically unplayable in literally every format.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I think the whole Blink thing is cute especially Venser because he's a 5 CMC planeswalker who can't protect himself which has been historically unplayable in literally every format.
This is an absolutely terrible way to look at a deck.
Lots of cards have their place, and believe it or not, not every deck devolves into a battle of "play good cards" and win. Synergy sometimes is relatively important.
I'll list an example: Here is a Conley Woods deck that features another notoriously "unplayable" planeswalker as a finisher. In fact, despite that it's only a 1-of, he functions as the deck's namesake, as well as finisher.
This was an old extended Emeria based control deck using Martyr of Sands, Ajani Vengeant, as well as Sorin Markov to win the game. The deck was known as "markof Cocktail." It was never a huge portion of the meta, but it was a good deck that used synergy to beat otherwise popular netdecked strategies that were floating around at the time. It's the essence of a good rogue deck build.
Second, look at the decklist. It's pure control up until you play Venser. I don't wanna sound like i'm spouting off, but writing off an entire deck or strategy because a singular planeswalker hasn't been used in standard (lacks supporting cards to benefit from) or Legacy (no 5 drop that doesn't win on the spot is ever good in Legacy) just isn't solid logic or reasoning. Dark Depths was terrible until it had the pieces to make it playable. Same can be said about many cards that were featured as pseudo combo pieces. Heck, even Green sun's Zenith is unplayable in standard for the most part, but it's an all-star in Legacy and Extended. I get that they're different, and much more combo oriented, but resolving a Venser with a Witness on the board should by all means come out to being GG if you make it to that point.
-You answer all their threats, play witnesses, and gain back your answers (permission, removal, etc). You use witnesses to chump block, and use it as a means to set up the end-game. Green Sun's Zenith sets up more witnesses, a small toolbox (dryad arbor, Pridemage, Finks).
-At this point, you're already grinding out and winning the battle of card advantage in all likelihood, leaving you with a Sun Titan blowout (sun titan + anything in this deck is awesome) A Venser lock, or simply winning via grinding out card advantage and attacking in with small creatures.
Once again, I'm not saying it's good or bad, but if you're just going to write it off, at least test it. I could use some legit feedback other than just "venser is in the deck. It's bad."
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I think the whole Blink thing is cute especially Venser because he's a 5 CMC planeswalker who can't protect himself which has been historically unplayable in literally every format.
Not necessarily. I mean, you can realistically just counter most of their plays, then simply path/bant charm/ chump block their other plays.
You can counter most of their plays with...a grand total of six counterspells that cost less than four mana?
I understand how the deck is supposed to play, but I feel like it's going to have trouble with the aggro in the format. Other control decks have strongplays that come out in the early game. You...don't.
I want to be clear that I like the deck concept. Hell, I might mess around with a Venser/Witness build of my own. (I'll post what I come up with if I do.) I'm just not sure about the build you have.
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When you peer long enough through the depths, the depths peer also through you.
You can counter most of their plays with...a grand total of six counterspells that cost less than four mana?
I understand how the deck is supposed to play, but I feel like it's going to have trouble with the aggro in the format. Other control decks have strongplays that come out in the early game. You...don't.
I want to be clear that I like the deck concept. Hell, I might mess around with a Venser/Witness build of my own. (I'll post what I come up with if I do.) I'm just not sure about the build you have.
Ah, fair enough, and I can't entirely disagree with that. Although, I DO play removal believe it or not :p.
Let me know what you come up with however, i'd be interested to see.
FWIW, I did a bit of testing, and I definitely agree, Gifts is a necessity in here. I also cut down on the creature count and added more permission + less Vensers. 2 Vensers is all you really want. I updated the decklist in the OP just for kicks. The funny thing about Gifts, is you don't even need to add anything extra for it to work perfectly in here, as you can just add gifts, then search out Venser, Time Warp, Sun Titan, and Eternal Witness to have all of your combo pieces in one go without having to play additional recursion pieces.
And regardless of the Venser shenanigans, this deck is a sick Sun Titan/witness control deck.
Well, I'm not really sure how good this could potentially be, but it at the very least looks like a lot of fun, and I do think it's worth a look into developing it. After reading some suggestions from posts below, and developing the deck a bit further, it's turning into a pretty cool bant based gifts deck with a Venser/Sun Titan based combo finish.
+ = Infinite Turns & other Shenanigans
Since getting into the format, I've started to discover just how stupidly powerful Eternal Witness is, especially when combined with Green Sun's Zenith. In any case, it randomly occurred to me that Venser, the Sojourner might actually have a place in Modern, if for no reason other than the fact that Blinking Eternal Witness is just stupidly powerful, and neither card is bad on it's own by default.
Just for example of the potential stupidity of Venser + Eternal Witness..
Witness + Venser + Time Warp = infinite turn combo
Witness + Venser + Plow Under = stops opponents from ever drawing cards, while putting 2 lands on top each turn
Witness + Venser + Cryptic Command = insane card advantage, and permanent fog
Witness + Venser + any other normal control spell = still awesome card advantage
Okay, well outside the realm of magical christmas land, this deck is good without venser shenanigans. Playing Eternal Witness in a control deck has always been solid, especially with so many instant speed answers and ways to tutor for things. While hitting the infinite turn lock is pretty sweet, you can typically just win via grinding out card advantage like a traditional non-tempo based control deck would normally do. Jace isn't necessary in here, since you're playing at instant speed for the most part. It's actually relatively easy to set up the infinite turn loop via Gifts Ungiven, although, it'll probably take a turn or two to get online unless you have 8-10 mana available.
Other awesome creatures to blink back with Venser
-Venser, Shaper Savant, the planeswalker's namesake gives you a bounce every turn, allowing you to short an opponent's mana supply, or keep just about anything you need off the board for +2.
-Coiling Oracle is a better wall of omens in this deck, since it effectively ramps, draws, and functions as a card advantage engine and early game blocker. Also tutorable via Green Sun's Zenith.
-Vendilion Clique gives you tons of control of your opponents hand when combined with the blink Function.
-Stoneforge Mystic gets to be reused with Venser
-Kitchen Finks staves off aggro, then gets blinked giving you more life, and removing persist counters.
-Trinket Mage gives you extra Engineered explosives/Chalices/spellbombs/ Pithing needles
Thoughts on development
Obviously, this would require being built in a control-heavy shell with plenty of permission, but I think the inevitability and late-game card advantage can be unreal, even in a format as crazy as this. Gifts ungiven fits perfectly with the witness/recursion theme, and instant speed gameplan.
I haven't really played this much, i've just been messing around with a few decklists, but I just felt it was something cool to share, since it's a really "fun" idea even if it's never going to be perfectly competitive. I've listed a preliminary list below just as an "idea" more than anything else. I do think it has at least some potential as a deck. 5 mana isn't out of question for any control deck in this format, especially if you're playing with late-game in mind. Especially when you have at least some options for ramping in mind as well.
4x Preordain
1x Ponder
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Gifts Ungiven
1x Time Warp
Permission
3x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Mana Leak
3x Cryptic Command
Removal
3x Path to Exile
1x Bant Charm
1x Wrath of God
Creatures
4x Eternal Witness
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Sun titan
1x Celestial Colonnade
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Flooded Grove
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Breeding Pool
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Temple Garden
1x Glacial Fortress
2x Sunpetal Grove
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
4x Meddling Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Spell Pierce
1x Bant Charm
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Wrath of God
Obviously, but that's why you play the control route. Even if Venser gets killed after coming into play, he will still gain you value 9x out of 10 even if he does get killed. Second, you play heavy ** stress the heavy part ** control and more or less play Venser as your finisher. I'm not sure you would even try to play Time Warp or Plow Under, but simply playing a Bant control deck with Cryptic Commands, Witnesses, and Venser as a 3-of could be *enough*.
Could a Gifts Ungiven package work here?
Not necessarily. I mean, you can realistically just counter most of their plays, then simply path/bant charm/ chump block their other plays.
I don't see the point of signets. This is a control deck more than a tempo or combo deck. The goal isn't to play Venser Early, but rather, take control of the game via permission and the small creature package, then close out the game after stabilizing via venser. As I mentioned however, this isn't for the purpose of comboing out really fast. If you want that, play Elves or Hypergenesis. But being able to combo with 3 cards that are individually good, is pretty cool at the very least.
I mean I probably should stress this again. This is simply a bant control deck, that just so happens to take advantage of Venser's ability. Even without resolving venser, it's still going to control the game, get a lot of good cards back when casting witness, and do some awesome things. I will say, that I think Gifts could have a place in here however. Definitely something I forgot about that would be awesome with the Sun Titan/Time Warp/Witness package that's already a part of the deck.
** Edited - added a small gifts package and a single wrath. Definitely seemed like it was a good idea.
needs moar finks
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It's just an entirely different strategy. Comparing apples to oranges here.
This gains more card advantage than the Bant deck would, and plays more counterspells/control effects than a bant mystic deck would.
As far as "cute" there really is only 1 cute card in here, which is Time Warp as a 1-of. Everything else in here outside Venser has been an Extended staple at some time or another.
I'm not here to say that Mystic is a bad card, but look beyond standard and current extended trends. I don't agree with Jhoira about everything he says, but you really need to look beyond the stoneforge mystic trend (yes... it's a great card, but it's definitely a trend more than anything else right now).
In any case, I'm not saying that this is the best of anything, or you should drop your decks and play this since it's going to dominate the meta from here out. This is a thread for the purpose of developing ideas on how to build this.. With a headstart of playing a non-tempo oriented control deck (believe it or not, they do exist contrary to popular belief).
This is an absolutely terrible way to look at a deck.
Lots of cards have their place, and believe it or not, not every deck devolves into a battle of "play good cards" and win. Synergy sometimes is relatively important.
I'll list an example: Here is a Conley Woods deck that features another notoriously "unplayable" planeswalker as a finisher. In fact, despite that it's only a 1-of, he functions as the deck's namesake, as well as finisher.
This was an old extended Emeria based control deck using Martyr of Sands, Ajani Vengeant, as well as Sorin Markov to win the game. The deck was known as "markof Cocktail." It was never a huge portion of the meta, but it was a good deck that used synergy to beat otherwise popular netdecked strategies that were floating around at the time. It's the essence of a good rogue deck build.
60 cards
4 Arid Mesa
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
1 Mistveil Plains
6 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
25 lands
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Ranger of Eos
7 creatures
4 Castigate
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Lightning Helix
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sorin Markov
3 Wrath of God
28 other spells
3 Extirpate
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Kami of False Hope
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ranger of Eos
3 Sacred Mesa
Second, look at the decklist. It's pure control up until you play Venser. I don't wanna sound like i'm spouting off, but writing off an entire deck or strategy because a singular planeswalker hasn't been used in standard (lacks supporting cards to benefit from) or Legacy (no 5 drop that doesn't win on the spot is ever good in Legacy) just isn't solid logic or reasoning. Dark Depths was terrible until it had the pieces to make it playable. Same can be said about many cards that were featured as pseudo combo pieces. Heck, even Green sun's Zenith is unplayable in standard for the most part, but it's an all-star in Legacy and Extended. I get that they're different, and much more combo oriented, but resolving a Venser with a Witness on the board should by all means come out to being GG if you make it to that point.
-You answer all their threats, play witnesses, and gain back your answers (permission, removal, etc). You use witnesses to chump block, and use it as a means to set up the end-game. Green Sun's Zenith sets up more witnesses, a small toolbox (dryad arbor, Pridemage, Finks).
-At this point, you're already grinding out and winning the battle of card advantage in all likelihood, leaving you with a Sun Titan blowout (sun titan + anything in this deck is awesome) A Venser lock, or simply winning via grinding out card advantage and attacking in with small creatures.
Once again, I'm not saying it's good or bad, but if you're just going to write it off, at least test it. I could use some legit feedback other than just "venser is in the deck. It's bad."
hes decent in standard right now.
You can counter most of their plays with...a grand total of six counterspells that cost less than four mana?
I understand how the deck is supposed to play, but I feel like it's going to have trouble with the aggro in the format. Other control decks have strong plays that come out in the early game. You...don't.
I want to be clear that I like the deck concept. Hell, I might mess around with a Venser/Witness build of my own. (I'll post what I come up with if I do.) I'm just not sure about the build you have.
Ah, fair enough, and I can't entirely disagree with that. Although, I DO play removal believe it or not :p.
Let me know what you come up with however, i'd be interested to see.
FWIW, I did a bit of testing, and I definitely agree, Gifts is a necessity in here. I also cut down on the creature count and added more permission + less Vensers. 2 Vensers is all you really want. I updated the decklist in the OP just for kicks. The funny thing about Gifts, is you don't even need to add anything extra for it to work perfectly in here, as you can just add gifts, then search out Venser, Time Warp, Sun Titan, and Eternal Witness to have all of your combo pieces in one go without having to play additional recursion pieces.
And regardless of the Venser shenanigans, this deck is a sick Sun Titan/witness control deck.