Hey guys! Especially those I remember from the WotC boards! (tich and cadaverous I'm looking at you guys!) I'm currently putting together a Superfriends MP deck (read Planeswalker dedicated deck).
Why? Well there is so little planeswalker hate out there and in my meta which is very sweeper intensive creatures are not that threatening to be attacking my 'walkers. So without further ado here some my early thoughts I want to bounce off the community.
First of all my main colors are going to be Green and White and I can't decide if my third color should be Red or Blue. Red gives me haste basically and Blue gives me added card draw/Clockspinning (which is awesome)/and Jace, the Mind Sculptor!
First things first, Doubling Season is nutso in a deck like this. It doubles the counters of the 'walkers coming into play and most of the 'walkers I'm going to use are token producers which is an added bonus. Garruk, Primal Hunter is a house. With the season out he becomes a 5 mana Sorcery giving you 10 6/6 Wurm tokens basically. Which in my book is pretty good. Elspeth, Knight Errant or Elspeth Tirel you guys help me decide. Gideon Jura this guy is a house. He makes the cut. Karn Liberated don't know about him yet. You guys help me decide.
Depending on the colors.
If I go red I get: Ajani Vengeant, his abilites help control the board and his ultimate make a very bad day for someone. Sarkhan Vol, only really gives me haste (which shouldn't be underestimated), but his ultimate with a Doubling Season out is bonkers!
If I go blue I get: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, I have 3 copies of this bad mutha and let's not kid ourselves. He is a beast. Clockspinning, don't let this card deceive. For a mere blue mana you can get that last loyalty counter and with Doubling Season you can obviously get two.
As far as protection I'm thinking of Moment's Peace (if you don't know why this card is good I'm not bothering explaining it), Wrath of God, and Wall of Omens cuz I hear early blockers and card draw is pretty good.
If I splash black I get Death Cloud and a that resolved with a Garruk 2.0 in play is basically game over. Trust me on that. But I don't know if that is worth adding black to this list.
Anyway, this deck is in its early stages so maybe you guys can help me build this bad boy!
******edit*******
So here is my 1st draft of this bad boy.
Doubling Season - I don't think I really need to sing the praises of this card. Especially in a deck like this. It doubles the counters on your Planeswalkers when you cast them and it doubles the tokens you make from your Planeswalkers. Also off of (1) Contagion Engine activation it gives you (4) counters on each Planeswalker! Garruk, Primal Hunter - is an absolute house. With DubSeason out he is a 5 mana sorcery that basically gives you (10) 6/6 Wurm tokens. A nice little trick for card draw is to use Elspeth V1.0 2nd +1 ability to grant a beast token +3/+3 and flying and then draw (6) cards off of him using Garruks -3 ability. Elspeth, Knight Errant - is amazing. She creates token creatures which double with the Season out, she grants evasion to your beaters, and with a DubSeason in play she becomes a 4 mana sorcery making pretty much all your permanents indestrucible for the rest of the game! Elspeth Tirel - So far I've been loving this version of Elly. And after the 1st version grants you indestrucible for the rest of the game you can really start cranking out tokens with her. Karn Liberated - 1st of all thanks tich for this recommendation. I probably would have never thought of him. With DubSeason out he comes into play with whopping 12 counters! Use his +4 ability to exile 'walkers in hand for the inevitable restart coming. After playing several games with him I can't believe how insanely powerful his effects are. Any threats on the board? Exile 'em. Got a permanent in your hand you don't really need? Exile it. Know the reset is coming very soon? Exile a 'walker on your board. Trust me when Karn restarts the game and you drop 1-2 'walkers right off the bat most people will just scoop then and there. Gideon Jura - Believe it or not he is the weakest 'walker for this deck. He may actually end up being cut for more copies of the existing 'walkers, but I'm going to wait and see. Overgrown Battlement & Wall of Omens - Early protection and the Omens digs through the deck and the Battlement provides ramp. Not sure if they will make the final version of this deck or not. Wrath of God & Balance Sweepers. 'Nuff said. Moment's Peace - People are going to try and attack your 'walkers. This goes a long way into preventing that. Swords to Plowshares - My meta is creature heavy, so I thought it would be good to have a little spot removal. Who knows if this stays or not. Disenchant - I like having answers to pesky enchantments that are in my meta like Sneak Attack. Enlightened Tutor - Tutoring is good mmkay. Contagion Engine - A little expensive but I think a singleton works here. Even without a DubSeason in play your 'walkers get (2) loyalty counters for a mere (4) mana. Rings of Brighthearth - As much as I love the thought of this card in this deck I believe it may very well be overkill, but I will leave them in there for now. Sol Ring - Does it really need an explanation? Harmonize - This deck really wants its Planeswalkers and since there is not a way to tutor them up card draw is the thing I've got. I may even need to add some more cycling or cantripping spells to dig through my deck. Temple Garden, Wooded Bastion, Sunpetal Grove, Razorverge Thicket, Selesnya Sanctuary - Dual lands are good I hear. Plains & Forest - Soon as I get some Savannah I will be swapping these out.
So anyway there is the deck. Thoughts? I am also going to update the 1st post with this decklist.
*EDIT*
I ended up adding Ajani Goldmane. His -1 ability is sick with DubSeason and all the token creatures. His ultimate is cute with a Season in play as well. Ended up cutting the Rings of Brighthearth. Definitely a winmore card that was completely unneeded.
You'll want Elspeth, Knight-Errant for sure, especially in a removal heavy meta. Most of your "win conditions," such as Garruk and Sarkhan, rely on creature beats to seal the deal. Even with Haste I doubt that you'll be able to blitz everyone down in one fell swoop, so I think that the indestructibility will be needed. As far as Karn goes, I personally like him a lot. He is a LOT of loyalty, especially when you toss in DubSeason. Trying to burn through him will be like trying to burn through a second life total, and he'll be RFGing threats along the way. What I like about him is that he can pitch duplicate walkers so that when/if you restart the game, you'll have a full compliment of walkers ready to go. He's also a double Vindicate, which can sometimes come in handy. Do not run 4, but 1 isn't bad.
What I'm not sure is how to finish this deck. You mentioned Black for cards like Death Cloud, but I think you're overlooking Liliana Vess in a removal heavy meta. When you cast her with DubSeason in play, well, need I say more?
So I'm thinking that this deck will also need Coalition Relic or Prismatic Omen or something. Garruk is GGG, Liliana is BB, Elspeth and Gideon are WW, etc. Casting cards will be tough without some great fixing. Fellwar Stone is probably needed too actually.
Thanks for the advice tich, you definitely have me sold on at least 1 copy of Karn, maybe two. Definitely going to consider black and as far as my manabase goes I have a playset of Reflecting Pool which when added with some Vivid lands and things like City of Brass and Exotic Orchard, it becomes laughable how easy you can cast your spells.
Another question . . . how much should I worry about getting a "DubSeason" into play? Should I add Enlightened Tutor and things like Sterling Grove simply for it? Or just go with blue and get it with Jace and card draw?
So in your opinion is red not worth adding to this deck you think tich? I'm leaning towards no.
If anything it would just be for Vol. I don't like Vengeant because he's more of a tempo card which doesn't bring much to a multiplayer setting. Chandras 1-2 are very meh but Chandra 3 has a good ult and is easily splashable. You'd add above any other red walker IMO.
DubSeason is very important in this deck, if you had any Enlightened Tutorss or whatever I would add them. It's not like you'll have many other early plays, so it'll even give you something to do while you build up mana for walkers and whatnot. Being able to ult immediately is so powerful, you really can't forgo that advantage. I would tutor and power them out asap.
and Wall of Omens cuz I hear early blockers and card draw is pretty good.
How would Venser, the Sojourner be in conjunction with your other ideas? I think it might require a significantly greater investment of creatures for maximum effectiveness though and this run counter intuitive to your initial ideas.
I find Venser to be completely overrated. The problem with his ability is that it's not instant. As such, he cannot protect your other walkers effectively at all. Yes, he can blink them to reset their counters, but not much else. That's typically not a good enough reason to add a walker. His focus is far too narrow for a multiplayer setting IMO.
I'm much more of an Elspeth, Garruk, Chandra, Vess guy. We're looking for things like global ults, + abilities that create tokens, ults that can be used directly off of DubStep, etc. Vol isn't bad either for things like haste and more token generation. Sorin Markov is only needed if people love their lifegain decks, he's pretty weak otherwise. Gideon is incredibly durable but doesn't offer all that much in multiplayer, I could probably go either way on him. Karn is a house and with DubStrep in play he's a free "oops, I lost time to draw this game!" Take away the satisfaction people would get from winning the game! Nissa is obviously trash... Sarkhan the Mad is trash... Jace 1 and 2 are decent for draw if nothing else, not needed but certainly not bad. Jace 3 is utter trash though... Elspeth 2 is worse then Elly 1 but she does make a lot of bodies, you could easily field both. Umm... Tezzey 1 and 2 are useless... Koth has no mountains... Bolas is neat too actually as a 1 of. He's kinda like Karn. Not expecting him to outright win the game, but he easily can.
I find Venser to be completely overrated. The problem with his ability is that it's not instant. As such, he cannot protect your other walkers effectively at all. Yes, he can blink them to reset their counters, but not much else. That's typically not a good enough reason to add a walker. His focus is far too narrow for a multiplayer setting IMO.
Completely agree. I have a playset of Venser that has a good use in my Ally deck for both the blinking and the unblockable but he is worthless in this deck.
I'm much more of an Elspeth, Garruk, Chandra, Vess guy. We're looking for things like global ults, + abilities that create tokens, ults that can be used directly off of DubStep, etc. Vol isn't bad either for things like haste and more token generation.
I thought about Chandra V1.0 or V3.0, but I didn't think they added that much too the deck. Pretty much all the red walkers I'm on the fence about. I think Vengeant may be getting cut, but I can't decide if I like Vol or not.
I pretty much agree with your assessment of 'walkers. I didn't even think of adding at least 1 Bolas.
As far as protection goes I'm also going to field some of my own ***s and I'm wondering if any proliferate items are worth it. I think Contagion Engine is at least worth a 1 of. Thoughts?
Yeah in my old post I mentioned how I felt like Chandras 1 + 2 suck but Chandra 3 is ok on the back of her ult alone. Splashable at 3R, good ult, that's about it.
Contagion Engine is good, but you have to be careful about mana costs. It's 6 mana and something like 4 more to activate. If you're also throwing in Karn and Bolas, you might be top heavy. Most decks field 1-2 bullets but primarily rely on solid 4 ofs of the better, more aggressive cards. What about something like Tezzeret's Gambit for a 3-4 mana proliferate effect that also draw cards?
I mean a singleton Engine isn't bad, but your deck won't be fast out of the gate. How good or bad that is we can't know, that'll depend on your meta.
Since you're in white for defense, have you considered Norn's Annex? It, unlike most cards in the game, protects your Planeswalkers as well as you. You could also splash Black for Phyrexian Obliterator since it's super easy to cast at BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB :P. I swear to God that Obliterator is the best multiplayer creature ever printed. If it didn't have such an obnoxious mana cost and cost $25.00 for no reason at all (it sees ZERO competitive play FFS) it would be so good >.>. Unfortunately, cards like Island Sanctuary and Ghostly Prison don't help defend them at all. It's not the best card ever, but it can't be the worst thing to add to a PW deck. It can even come down on turn 3 if needed, which should hit before any (maybe?) of your walkers do. I personally don't like relying on "singe shot" effects like Wraths to defend myself in multiplayer. They do their job once, but leave you high and dry afterwards. I'm more fond of something like Norn's Annex or Ensnaring Bridge that can shut down creature-based aggression entirely. As dumb as it sounds, you can easily hide behind it, built up creatures and counters, and even just exile it with Karn when you want/are ready to attack. It works quite well, especially if Karn is keeping your hand empty while prepping for "game 2."
Otherwise, good cards to add would be things like Rhystic Study, Syphon Mind, Land Tax (+ Scroll Rack), Mind's Eye, Mystic Remora, etc. Just some solid draw spells basically. I also still think that 4x Fellwar Stone should be an auto include, with maybe a Sol Ring and 2x Coalition Relic tossed in for good measure. I like these cheap artifacts and cards like Remora/Study because they give you great turn 1-3 plays since most of your walkers are 4+ mana. I like how a turn 1 Sol Ring, turn 2 Fellwar Stone (or player off the Ring in T1, whatever, you get the idea), turn 3 Rhystic Study just sets you up so well for the long-run. You have accel, color fixing, and solid draw all setup before you start casting threats. I mean my basic shell would be:
I find Venser to be completely overrated. The problem with his ability is that it's not instant. As such, he cannot protect your other walkers effectively at all. Yes, he can blink them to reset their counters, but not much else. That's typically not a good enough reason to add a walker. His focus is far too narrow for a multiplayer setting IMO.
I'm much more of an Elspeth, Garruk, Chandra, Vess guy. We're looking for things like global ults, + abilities that create tokens, ults that can be used directly off of DubStep, etc. Vol isn't bad either for things like haste and more token generation. Sorin Markov is only needed if people love their lifegain decks, he's pretty weak otherwise. Gideon is incredibly durable but doesn't offer all that much in multiplayer, I could probably go either way on him. Karn is a house and with DubStrep in play he's a free "oops, I lost time to draw this game!" Take away the satisfaction people would get from winning the game! Nissa is obviously trash... Sarkhan the Mad is trash... Jace 1 and 2 are decent for draw if nothing else, not needed but certainly not bad. Jace 3 is utter trash though... Elspeth 2 is worse then Elly 1 but she does make a lot of bodies, you could easily field both. Umm... Tezzey 1 and 2 are useless... Koth has no mountains... Bolas is neat too actually as a 1 of. He's kinda like Karn. Not expecting him to outright win the game, but he easily can.
While I wouldn't totally agree with you on all your opinions about the PWs, I do tend to agree with most.
One thing that I think you are totally missing the boat on, however, is that Nissa is so bad, she's actually hilarious, which makes her awesome.
I simply have to make a MP deck based around her just to laugh with my buddies...
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My typical MP format is 5 total players, star-format. FFA, but you only need to eliminate your 2 non-adjacent opponents to win.
Everything I said about the Walkers was with respect to the context of this particular deck, not their overall play-ability. Nissa is obviously good in Elf decks, which isn't the case here. All the Chandras and Koths and such that require Mountains and Red spells are clearly useless here, but Koth is a fine Walker in Big Red decks. He's actually one of the stronger multiplayer Walkers in my mind, if only because Red is great at clearing the field (so he can actually stay alive) and that Emblem is disgusting. Koth can easily win multiplayer games single-handidly. Tezzeret the Seeker is probably the strongest overall PWer because he both tutors for and untaps Time Vault. Any one card win condition against any number of opponents is HUGE in my book. Great card, but useless in this context. The 2nd best has to be Sorin Markov if only because he dominates EDH games and other, casual formats like 2HG. Not very good in big FFAs obviously, but his -3 is pretty amazing in a wide range of situations where no other card can really work. Well, there's that like 6-7 CMC sphinx that costs costs like 3WBU or whatever, but good luck "splashing" for that. Again though, this isn't EDH, so he has little value.
I'm basically looking for global effects, token generation or a good ult that you can instantly use off of DubStep for this deck. If a PWer doesn't have one or more of these traits then it's probably not optimal. The reason why I don't mind singleton Karns and Bolases and such is because I find that decks tend to dwindle and die as time goes on. Adding a "trump" card or two that can cause some relevant, repeatable damage can be very useful. I am not saying that your deck should have 4 copies of the card, but I've actually started putting things like a singleton Karn in my decks. He is a ****ing beast. Like, 10 loyalty is a ****ton. When people are already stressed on resources, trying to efficiently take him out can be all but impossible. It's really not designed to be some magical backup plan, but it's actually pretty nice playing 7 mana spells when you have 7 mana doing nothing anyways. I try out lots of cards, like Cabal Conditioning, Myojin of Night's Reach, Decree of Pain, Dregs of Sorrow, just 1-2 really big, dumb spells. You'd be amazed how often they can be relevant.
I guess this is something that I probably don't mention enough, but you really have to build your deck with your meta in mind. If people like long, slow games then a big chunk of your deck should be big, slow cards. I mean why play Vindicate when a Karn Liberated will always be just as good if not better? Why play a 4/4 when you can wait another turn to play that 26/26 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer instead? If you know that games are going to drag on, have something that you can play when the late-late stage of the game arrives.
So I'm finally starting to put this deck together and I really am struggling (because I think of personal attachments to Jace ver 2.0) with the decision for the 3rd color being blue, black or red.
Green and White are the meat and potatoes of this build we've established that.
Red gives me Vol and haste and that is about it.
Blue gives me counterspells, Jace 2, and Clockspinning which in my mind is very powerful.
Black gives me Vess and just the standard great MP black cards (which I use in about every other deck since I'm primarily a black mage).
Counters and Clockspinning feel very weak. If you add blue, do it for draw spells such as Rhystic Study. Adding Blue for anything other than Jace 2.0, Rhystis Study and like Mystic Remora feels like a mistake.
Red gives you access to cards like Earthquake which not only clear the field, but also deal damage to each opponent. If people attack your walkers then they're not attacking you, which makes chaining global damage very effective. That's probably not the angle that you want, but do not overlook Red's offense capabilities. It's a strong color.
Still, Black has some of hands-down best MP effects. Syphon Mind, Exsanguinate, Liana Vess, Barter in Blood and so much more all spring to mind. I think that most multiplayer decks should run Black or Blue if only to bring consistency to their decks. You probably have to play one of these 2 colors.
By the way, have you considered the Armageddon route? Plays walkers, wait for someone to Wrath, then blow up lands. Balance + Zuran Orb can work amazingly too. Play walkers, float your mana, and destroy each creature/land. Like, this deck doesn't have to be 3 colors, Green White could easily work. You could even add blue just for a bit of extra draw and dig post Geddon, putting that Jace to use.
While I agree with the strength of black I just don't think I'm going to go that route here simply because of all my other black decks I play.
Your right about red being strong, but it isn't the route I want to take (read direct damage).
I have thought about Armageddon and the aforementioned Death Cloud, but mass LD is frowned upon in meta so I think I will stray from that.
With all that being said with the cards laying in the floor in front of me now and with our conversation I think I'm going to go with a G/W build at first and go from there. I also think I'm going to go with at least 1-2 of Elpeth 2.0 because after Elspeth 1.0 blows her ult she is pretty weak, it would be nice to drop Elly 2.0 and let her go to work.
With that being said do you think I should go with an enchantment subtheme of some version with the like of Sterling Grove and Enlightened Tutor (which both are obviously for the DubSeason)?
A while back I built a deck that abused that very idea. To top it off, I also added Avatar of Might. The idea was to set up defense using cards other than creatures (say, Maze of Ith, Enchantments, Forcefield, etc.), wait/get an opponent to have 4 creatures in play (Forbidden Orchard, etc.), cast Avatar of Might on the cheap, then Balance. Ideally, if you had Zuran Orb in play, you'd take everyone to zero lands & trash all their creatures but one.
I rationalized that it would be hard to defend yourself with an 8/8 Trampler bearing down on you with 1 creature (which is even better if it's one of the 1/1 spirit creatures from Forbidden Orchard) and no lands.
In any case, +1 to that combo as a potential option
[b]Doubling Season[/b] - I don't think I really need to sing the praises of this card. Especially in a deck like this. It doubles the counters on your Planeswalkers when you cast them and it doubles the tokens you make from your Planeswalkers. Also off of (1) Contagion Engine activation it gives you (4) counters on each Planeswalker!
[b]Garruk, Primal Hunter[/b] - is an absolute house. With DubSeason out he is a 5 mana sorcery that basically gives you (10) 6/6 Wurm tokens. A nice little trick for card draw is to use Elspeth V1.0 2nd +1 ability to grant a beast token +3/+3 and flying and then draw (6) cards off of him using Garruks -3 ability.
[b]Elspeth, Knight Errant[/b] - is amazing. She creates token creatures which double with the Season out, she grants evasion to your beaters, and with a DubSeason in play she becomes a 4 mana sorcery making pretty much all your permanents indestrucible for the rest of the game!
[b]Elspeth Tirel[/b] - So far I've been loving this version of Elly. And after the 1st version grants you indestrucible for the rest of the game you can really start cranking out tokens with her.
[b]Karn Liberated[/b] - 1st of all thanks tich for this recommendation. I probably would have never thought of him. With DubSeason out he comes into play with whopping 12 counters! Use his +4 ability to exile 'walkers in hand for the inevitable restart coming.
[b]Gideon Jura[/b] - Believe it or not he is the weakest 'walker for this deck. He may actually end up being cut for more copies of the existing 'walkers, but I'm going to wait and see.
[b]Overgrown Battlement & Wall of Omens[/b] - Early protection and the Omens digs through the deck and the Battlement provides ramp. Not sure if they will make the final version of this deck or not.
[b]Wrath of God & Balance[/b] Sweepers. 'Nuff said.
[b]Moment's Peace[/b] - People are going to try and attack your 'walkers. This goes a long way into preventing that.
[b]Swords to Plowshares[/b] - My meta is creature heavy, so I thought it would be good to have a little spot removal. Who knows if this stays or not.
[b]Disenchant[/b] - I like having answers to pesky enchantments that are in my meta like [card]Sneak Attack[/b].
[b]Enlightened Tutor[/b] - Tutoring is good mmkay.
[b]Contagion Engine[/b] - A little expensive but I think a singleton works here. Even without a DubSeason in play your 'walkers get (2) loyalty counters for a mere (4) mana.
[b]Rings of Brighthearth[/b] - As much as I love the thought of this card in this deck I believe it may very well be overkill, but I will leave them in there for now.
[b]Sol Ring[/b] - Does it really need an explanation?
[b]Harmonize[/b] - This deck really wants its Planeswalkers and since there is not a way to tutor them up card draw is the thing I've got. I may even need to add some more cycling or cantripping spells to dig through my deck.
[b]Temple Garden, Wooded Bastion, Sunpetal Grove, Razorverge Thicket, Selesnya Sanctuary[/b] - Dual lands are good I hear.
[b]Plains & Forest[/b] - Soon as I get some Savannah I will be swapping these out.
So anyway there is the deck. Thoughts? I am also going to update the 1st post with this decklist.
Okay, so after a little playtesting and some thought I'm seriously thinking of cutting Gideon in favor of Ajani Goldmane.
He lowers my curve slightly and he acts as a lord to all my token creatures. And again with DubSeason out his "lordship" ability really kicks into high gear. Not to mention his ultimate with DubSeason out is pretty funny.
Okay, so after a little playtesting and some thought I'm seriously thinking of cutting Gideon in favor of Ajani Goldmane.
He lowers my curve slightly and he acts as a lord to all my token creatures. And again with DubSeason out his "lordship" ability really kicks into high gear. Not to mention his ultimate with DubSeason out is pretty funny.
Type "4x Doubling Season" in your deck tag.
Not "x4 Doubling Season" etc.
Is Balance w/o Zorb really worthwhile? I mean you're even likely to have creatures in play given your walls and token producers. Your deck is also fairly slow, so it's not like you're dumping your had by turn 3. I don't see what Balance bring to the deck. Toss in Zorb or toss out Balance IMO.
And to answer, no I don't think Balance is worthwhile at all. Your right I end up having creatures out whenever I may want to cast it . . . and with the way this deck has been playing, generally quite a few creatures out.
Also, I'm not sold on the Wall subtheme. It is cute, but that is about it. I would like to add some non-artifact mana ramp but with all the nonbasics there isn't much out there. Recross the Path is about all I could find. If I take out the Wall of Omens though I have to have something that cantrips or cycles in its place.
The Rings of Brighthearth are most likely coming out. I hardly every activate them and when I do it really is overkill.
I'm strongly thinking of adding a 2nd Karn. He has blown me away with his power.
I maintain my stance that this deck could use a few Norn's Annexes. I'm pretty sure that the card sells for next to nothing, and it really does help protect Walkers. I mean especially if you have creatures out yourself, it makes attacking you so hard. Paying 2 life per creature to attack walkers with tons of loyalty is not easy, especially when people still have to kill you afterwards. Do not underestimate it.
I could see Karn going up to a 2-of. Like I said, he is a ****TON of loyalty and all of his abilities are relevant. I'm also not a big fan of the Rings. I agree that they are gimmicky and win-more most of the time.
As far as mana ramp goes, I still stand by 4x Fellwar Stone, 1x Sol Ring and 2x Coalition Relic. This is especially true because those cards work in every single deck you will ever make. 5 color deck? No problem. 3 colo deck? No problem. Mono color deck? No problem. It's an investment into an acceleration package that will serve you for life. You can look at it as 7 cards out of 60 for all of your future decks. That seems like a pretty solid deal to me.
As far as white/green cantripping, there isn't much good stuff to pick and choose from. Land Tax + Scroll Rack is an Ancestral Recall every turn which helps you hit your land drops early on. Green has Sylvan Library which can control your draws and give you some extra ones at a steep cost. If you do add Adjani, he can help offset the life-loss somewhat. Maybe Inheritance? It's pretty good in removal-heavy metas. Remember, you can use it whenever ANY creature dies!
Norn's may be what I add when I drop my stubborn attachment to this wall subtheme. I've got several (I think) and it may just be the gem I need.
Got any ideas on good/cheap (read mana cost cheap) cyclers or cantrippers since you can't tutor straight for planeswalkers....yet. (Which I guess I could always splash black for the tutor power.)
Well, other than the 3 that I added in my other post (you might not have seen them, I always update my posts like 20 times :P), the only thing that really comes to mind is say Astral Slide. Play a deck with cycle lands (see Secluded Steppe, Tranquil Thicket, Drifting Meadow, Slippery Karst), maybe some cards cards like Krosan Tusker, toss in Life from the Loam, and proceed to rift your Wall of Omens/Wall of Blossoms to draw tons of cards. It also stops attacking creatures dead in their tracks if needed. I dunno, adding Planeswalkers to a "Rifter" style deck might work.
I ended up adding Ajani Goldmane. His -1 ability is sick with DubSeason and all the token creatures. His ultimate is cute with a Season in play as well. Ended up cutting the Rings of Brighthearth. Definitely a winmore card that was completely unneeded.
So far the wall package has been useful. Digging through the deck with the Omens and the added ramp from the Battlement has been useful so for now I think I will keep it.
Why? Well there is so little planeswalker hate out there and in my meta which is very sweeper intensive creatures are not that threatening to be attacking my 'walkers. So without further ado here some my early thoughts I want to bounce off the community.
First of all my main colors are going to be Green and White and I can't decide if my third color should be Red or Blue. Red gives me haste basically and Blue gives me added card draw/Clockspinning (which is awesome)/and Jace, the Mind Sculptor!
First things first, Doubling Season is nutso in a deck like this. It doubles the counters of the 'walkers coming into play and most of the 'walkers I'm going to use are token producers which is an added bonus.
Garruk, Primal Hunter is a house. With the season out he becomes a 5 mana Sorcery giving you 10 6/6 Wurm tokens basically. Which in my book is pretty good.
Elspeth, Knight Errant or Elspeth Tirel you guys help me decide.
Gideon Jura this guy is a house. He makes the cut.
Karn Liberated don't know about him yet. You guys help me decide.
Depending on the colors.
If I go red I get:
Ajani Vengeant, his abilites help control the board and his ultimate make a very bad day for someone.
Sarkhan Vol, only really gives me haste (which shouldn't be underestimated), but his ultimate with a Doubling Season out is bonkers!
If I go blue I get:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor, I have 3 copies of this bad mutha and let's not kid ourselves. He is a beast.
Clockspinning, don't let this card deceive. For a mere blue mana you can get that last loyalty counter and with Doubling Season you can obviously get two.
As far as protection I'm thinking of Moment's Peace (if you don't know why this card is good I'm not bothering explaining it), Wrath of God, and Wall of Omens cuz I hear early blockers and card draw is pretty good.
If I splash black I get Death Cloud and a that resolved with a Garruk 2.0 in play is basically game over. Trust me on that. But I don't know if that is worth adding black to this list.
Anyway, this deck is in its early stages so maybe you guys can help me build this bad boy!
******edit*******
So here is my 1st draft of this bad boy.
3x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Karn Liberated
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Elspeth Tirel
1x Gideon Jura
2x Ajani Goldmane
WALLS and PROTECTION (17)
4x Wall of Omens
4x Overgrown Battlement
2x Wrath of God
3x Moment's Peace
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Disenchant
1x Naturalize
3x Doubling Season
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Contagion Engine
OTHER (4)
1x Sol Ring
3x Harmonize
LANDS (22)
4x Temple Garden
4x Wooded Bastion
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Selesnya Sanctuary
1x Plains
2x Forest
Doubling Season - I don't think I really need to sing the praises of this card. Especially in a deck like this. It doubles the counters on your Planeswalkers when you cast them and it doubles the tokens you make from your Planeswalkers. Also off of (1) Contagion Engine activation it gives you (4) counters on each Planeswalker!
Garruk, Primal Hunter - is an absolute house. With DubSeason out he is a 5 mana sorcery that basically gives you (10) 6/6 Wurm tokens. A nice little trick for card draw is to use Elspeth V1.0 2nd +1 ability to grant a beast token +3/+3 and flying and then draw (6) cards off of him using Garruks -3 ability.
Elspeth, Knight Errant - is amazing. She creates token creatures which double with the Season out, she grants evasion to your beaters, and with a DubSeason in play she becomes a 4 mana sorcery making pretty much all your permanents indestrucible for the rest of the game!
Elspeth Tirel - So far I've been loving this version of Elly. And after the 1st version grants you indestrucible for the rest of the game you can really start cranking out tokens with her.
Karn Liberated - 1st of all thanks tich for this recommendation. I probably would have never thought of him. With DubSeason out he comes into play with whopping 12 counters! Use his +4 ability to exile 'walkers in hand for the inevitable restart coming. After playing several games with him I can't believe how insanely powerful his effects are. Any threats on the board? Exile 'em. Got a permanent in your hand you don't really need? Exile it. Know the reset is coming very soon? Exile a 'walker on your board. Trust me when Karn restarts the game and you drop 1-2 'walkers right off the bat most people will just scoop then and there.
Gideon Jura - Believe it or not he is the weakest 'walker for this deck. He may actually end up being cut for more copies of the existing 'walkers, but I'm going to wait and see.
Overgrown Battlement & Wall of Omens - Early protection and the Omens digs through the deck and the Battlement provides ramp. Not sure if they will make the final version of this deck or not.
Wrath of God & Balance Sweepers. 'Nuff said.
Moment's Peace - People are going to try and attack your 'walkers. This goes a long way into preventing that.
Swords to Plowshares - My meta is creature heavy, so I thought it would be good to have a little spot removal. Who knows if this stays or not.
Disenchant - I like having answers to pesky enchantments that are in my meta like Sneak Attack.
Enlightened Tutor - Tutoring is good mmkay.
Contagion Engine - A little expensive but I think a singleton works here. Even without a DubSeason in play your 'walkers get (2) loyalty counters for a mere (4) mana.
Rings of Brighthearth - As much as I love the thought of this card in this deck I believe it may very well be overkill, but I will leave them in there for now.
Sol Ring - Does it really need an explanation?
Harmonize - This deck really wants its Planeswalkers and since there is not a way to tutor them up card draw is the thing I've got. I may even need to add some more cycling or cantripping spells to dig through my deck.
Temple Garden, Wooded Bastion, Sunpetal Grove, Razorverge Thicket, Selesnya Sanctuary - Dual lands are good I hear.
Plains & Forest - Soon as I get some Savannah I will be swapping these out.
So anyway there is the deck. Thoughts? I am also going to update the 1st post with this decklist.
*EDIT*
I ended up adding Ajani Goldmane. His -1 ability is sick with DubSeason and all the token creatures. His ultimate is cute with a Season in play as well. Ended up cutting the Rings of Brighthearth. Definitely a winmore card that was completely unneeded.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
What I'm not sure is how to finish this deck. You mentioned Black for cards like Death Cloud, but I think you're overlooking Liliana Vess in a removal heavy meta. When you cast her with DubSeason in play, well, need I say more?
So I'm thinking that this deck will also need Coalition Relic or Prismatic Omen or something. Garruk is GGG, Liliana is BB, Elspeth and Gideon are WW, etc. Casting cards will be tough without some great fixing. Fellwar Stone is probably needed too actually.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Another question . . . how much should I worry about getting a "DubSeason" into play? Should I add Enlightened Tutor and things like Sterling Grove simply for it? Or just go with blue and get it with Jace and card draw?
So in your opinion is red not worth adding to this deck you think tich? I'm leaning towards no.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
DubSeason is very important in this deck, if you had any Enlightened Tutorss or whatever I would add them. It's not like you'll have many other early plays, so it'll even give you something to do while you build up mana for walkers and whatnot. Being able to ult immediately is so powerful, you really can't forgo that advantage. I would tutor and power them out asap.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
How would Venser, the Sojourner be in conjunction with your other ideas? I think it might require a significantly greater investment of creatures for maximum effectiveness though and this run counter intuitive to your initial ideas.
I'm much more of an Elspeth, Garruk, Chandra, Vess guy. We're looking for things like global ults, + abilities that create tokens, ults that can be used directly off of DubStep, etc. Vol isn't bad either for things like haste and more token generation. Sorin Markov is only needed if people love their lifegain decks, he's pretty weak otherwise. Gideon is incredibly durable but doesn't offer all that much in multiplayer, I could probably go either way on him. Karn is a house and with DubStrep in play he's a free "oops, I lost time to draw this game!" Take away the satisfaction people would get from winning the game! Nissa is obviously trash... Sarkhan the Mad is trash... Jace 1 and 2 are decent for draw if nothing else, not needed but certainly not bad. Jace 3 is utter trash though... Elspeth 2 is worse then Elly 1 but she does make a lot of bodies, you could easily field both. Umm... Tezzey 1 and 2 are useless... Koth has no mountains... Bolas is neat too actually as a 1 of. He's kinda like Karn. Not expecting him to outright win the game, but he easily can.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Completely agree. I have a playset of Venser that has a good use in my Ally deck for both the blinking and the unblockable but he is worthless in this deck.
I thought about Chandra V1.0 or V3.0, but I didn't think they added that much too the deck. Pretty much all the red walkers I'm on the fence about. I think Vengeant may be getting cut, but I can't decide if I like Vol or not.
I pretty much agree with your assessment of 'walkers. I didn't even think of adding at least 1 Bolas.
As far as protection goes I'm also going to field some of my own ***s and I'm wondering if any proliferate items are worth it. I think Contagion Engine is at least worth a 1 of. Thoughts?
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Contagion Engine is good, but you have to be careful about mana costs. It's 6 mana and something like 4 more to activate. If you're also throwing in Karn and Bolas, you might be top heavy. Most decks field 1-2 bullets but primarily rely on solid 4 ofs of the better, more aggressive cards. What about something like Tezzeret's Gambit for a 3-4 mana proliferate effect that also draw cards?
I mean a singleton Engine isn't bad, but your deck won't be fast out of the gate. How good or bad that is we can't know, that'll depend on your meta.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Otherwise, good cards to add would be things like Rhystic Study, Syphon Mind, Land Tax (+ Scroll Rack), Mind's Eye, Mystic Remora, etc. Just some solid draw spells basically. I also still think that 4x Fellwar Stone should be an auto include, with maybe a Sol Ring and 2x Coalition Relic tossed in for good measure. I like these cheap artifacts and cards like Remora/Study because they give you great turn 1-3 plays since most of your walkers are 4+ mana. I like how a turn 1 Sol Ring, turn 2 Fellwar Stone (or player off the Ring in T1, whatever, you get the idea), turn 3 Rhystic Study just sets you up so well for the long-run. You have accel, color fixing, and solid draw all setup before you start casting threats. I mean my basic shell would be:
24x Lands
Accel (7)
4x Fellwar Stone
2x Coalition Relic
1x Sol Ring
3x Rhystic Study
2x Mystic Remora
DubStep (3)
3x Doubling Season
3x Norn's Annex
4x Wrath of God
Walkers (14)
14x Walkers
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
While I wouldn't totally agree with you on all your opinions about the PWs, I do tend to agree with most.
One thing that I think you are totally missing the boat on, however, is that Nissa is so bad, she's actually hilarious, which makes her awesome.
I simply have to make a MP deck based around her just to laugh with my buddies...
Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
I'm basically looking for global effects, token generation or a good ult that you can instantly use off of DubStep for this deck. If a PWer doesn't have one or more of these traits then it's probably not optimal. The reason why I don't mind singleton Karns and Bolases and such is because I find that decks tend to dwindle and die as time goes on. Adding a "trump" card or two that can cause some relevant, repeatable damage can be very useful. I am not saying that your deck should have 4 copies of the card, but I've actually started putting things like a singleton Karn in my decks. He is a ****ing beast. Like, 10 loyalty is a ****ton. When people are already stressed on resources, trying to efficiently take him out can be all but impossible. It's really not designed to be some magical backup plan, but it's actually pretty nice playing 7 mana spells when you have 7 mana doing nothing anyways. I try out lots of cards, like Cabal Conditioning, Myojin of Night's Reach, Decree of Pain, Dregs of Sorrow, just 1-2 really big, dumb spells. You'd be amazed how often they can be relevant.
I guess this is something that I probably don't mention enough, but you really have to build your deck with your meta in mind. If people like long, slow games then a big chunk of your deck should be big, slow cards. I mean why play Vindicate when a Karn Liberated will always be just as good if not better? Why play a 4/4 when you can wait another turn to play that 26/26 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer instead? If you know that games are going to drag on, have something that you can play when the late-late stage of the game arrives.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Green and White are the meat and potatoes of this build we've established that.
Red gives me Vol and haste and that is about it.
Blue gives me counterspells, Jace 2, and Clockspinning which in my mind is very powerful.
Black gives me Vess and just the standard great MP black cards (which I use in about every other deck since I'm primarily a black mage).
So someone help me decide my 3rd color.
Also is Rings of Brighthearth a win more card?
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Red gives you access to cards like Earthquake which not only clear the field, but also deal damage to each opponent. If people attack your walkers then they're not attacking you, which makes chaining global damage very effective. That's probably not the angle that you want, but do not overlook Red's offense capabilities. It's a strong color.
Still, Black has some of hands-down best MP effects. Syphon Mind, Exsanguinate, Liana Vess, Barter in Blood and so much more all spring to mind. I think that most multiplayer decks should run Black or Blue if only to bring consistency to their decks. You probably have to play one of these 2 colors.
By the way, have you considered the Armageddon route? Plays walkers, wait for someone to Wrath, then blow up lands. Balance + Zuran Orb can work amazingly too. Play walkers, float your mana, and destroy each creature/land. Like, this deck doesn't have to be 3 colors, Green White could easily work. You could even add blue just for a bit of extra draw and dig post Geddon, putting that Jace to use.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Your right about red being strong, but it isn't the route I want to take (read direct damage).
I have thought about Armageddon and the aforementioned Death Cloud, but mass LD is frowned upon in meta so I think I will stray from that.
With all that being said with the cards laying in the floor in front of me now and with our conversation I think I'm going to go with a G/W build at first and go from there. I also think I'm going to go with at least 1-2 of Elpeth 2.0 because after Elspeth 1.0 blows her ult she is pretty weak, it would be nice to drop Elly 2.0 and let her go to work.
With that being said do you think I should go with an enchantment subtheme of some version with the like of Sterling Grove and Enlightened Tutor (which both are obviously for the DubSeason)?
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
That is one of my favorite combos to pull.
A while back I built a deck that abused that very idea. To top it off, I also added Avatar of Might. The idea was to set up defense using cards other than creatures (say, Maze of Ith, Enchantments, Forcefield, etc.), wait/get an opponent to have 4 creatures in play (Forbidden Orchard, etc.), cast Avatar of Might on the cheap, then Balance. Ideally, if you had Zuran Orb in play, you'd take everyone to zero lands & trash all their creatures but one.
I rationalized that it would be hard to defend yourself with an 8/8 Trampler bearing down on you with 1 creature (which is even better if it's one of the 1/1 spirit creatures from Forbidden Orchard) and no lands.
In any case, +1 to that combo as a potential option
Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
Also what would be some good land ramp because with it being strictly G/W I have enough nonbasic duals to fill the entire deck.
I'm think Oracle of Mul Daya, but am definitely open to suggestions.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
3x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Karn Liberated
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Elspeth Tirel
2x Gideon Jura
WALLS and PROTECTION (18)
4x Wall of Omens
4x Overgrown Battlement
2x Wrath of God
1x Balance
3x Moment's Peace
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Disenchant
3x Doubling Season
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Contagion Engine
OTHER (6)
2x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Sol Ring
3x Harmonize
LANDS (22)
4x Temple Garden
4x Wooded Bastion
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Selesnya Sanctuary
1x Plains
2x Forest
[b]Doubling Season[/b] - I don't think I really need to sing the praises of this card. Especially in a deck like this. It doubles the counters on your Planeswalkers when you cast them and it doubles the tokens you make from your Planeswalkers. Also off of (1) Contagion Engine activation it gives you (4) counters on each Planeswalker!
[b]Garruk, Primal Hunter[/b] - is an absolute house. With DubSeason out he is a 5 mana sorcery that basically gives you (10) 6/6 Wurm tokens. A nice little trick for card draw is to use Elspeth V1.0 2nd +1 ability to grant a beast token +3/+3 and flying and then draw (6) cards off of him using Garruks -3 ability.
[b]Elspeth, Knight Errant[/b] - is amazing. She creates token creatures which double with the Season out, she grants evasion to your beaters, and with a DubSeason in play she becomes a 4 mana sorcery making pretty much all your permanents indestrucible for the rest of the game!
[b]Elspeth Tirel[/b] - So far I've been loving this version of Elly. And after the 1st version grants you indestrucible for the rest of the game you can really start cranking out tokens with her.
[b]Karn Liberated[/b] - 1st of all thanks tich for this recommendation. I probably would have never thought of him. With DubSeason out he comes into play with whopping 12 counters! Use his +4 ability to exile 'walkers in hand for the inevitable restart coming.
[b]Gideon Jura[/b] - Believe it or not he is the weakest 'walker for this deck. He may actually end up being cut for more copies of the existing 'walkers, but I'm going to wait and see.
[b]Overgrown Battlement & Wall of Omens[/b] - Early protection and the Omens digs through the deck and the Battlement provides ramp. Not sure if they will make the final version of this deck or not.
[b]Wrath of God & Balance[/b] Sweepers. 'Nuff said.
[b]Moment's Peace[/b] - People are going to try and attack your 'walkers. This goes a long way into preventing that.
[b]Swords to Plowshares[/b] - My meta is creature heavy, so I thought it would be good to have a little spot removal. Who knows if this stays or not.
[b]Disenchant[/b] - I like having answers to pesky enchantments that are in my meta like [card]Sneak Attack[/b].
[b]Enlightened Tutor[/b] - Tutoring is good mmkay.
[b]Contagion Engine[/b] - A little expensive but I think a singleton works here. Even without a DubSeason in play your 'walkers get (2) loyalty counters for a mere (4) mana.
[b]Rings of Brighthearth[/b] - As much as I love the thought of this card in this deck I believe it may very well be overkill, but I will leave them in there for now.
[b]Sol Ring[/b] - Does it really need an explanation?
[b]Harmonize[/b] - This deck really wants its Planeswalkers and since there is not a way to tutor them up card draw is the thing I've got. I may even need to add some more cycling or cantripping spells to dig through my deck.
[b]Temple Garden, Wooded Bastion, Sunpetal Grove, Razorverge Thicket, Selesnya Sanctuary[/b] - Dual lands are good I hear.
[b]Plains & Forest[/b] - Soon as I get some Savannah I will be swapping these out.
So anyway there is the deck. Thoughts? I am also going to update the 1st post with this decklist.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
He lowers my curve slightly and he acts as a lord to all my token creatures. And again with DubSeason out his "lordship" ability really kicks into high gear. Not to mention his ultimate with DubSeason out is pretty funny.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Type "4x Doubling Season" in your deck tag.
Not "x4 Doubling Season" etc.
Is Balance w/o Zorb really worthwhile? I mean you're even likely to have creatures in play given your walls and token producers. Your deck is also fairly slow, so it's not like you're dumping your had by turn 3. I don't see what Balance bring to the deck. Toss in Zorb or toss out Balance IMO.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
And to answer, no I don't think Balance is worthwhile at all. Your right I end up having creatures out whenever I may want to cast it . . . and with the way this deck has been playing, generally quite a few creatures out.
Also, I'm not sold on the Wall subtheme. It is cute, but that is about it. I would like to add some non-artifact mana ramp but with all the nonbasics there isn't much out there. Recross the Path is about all I could find. If I take out the Wall of Omens though I have to have something that cantrips or cycles in its place.
The Rings of Brighthearth are most likely coming out. I hardly every activate them and when I do it really is overkill.
I'm strongly thinking of adding a 2nd Karn. He has blown me away with his power.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
I could see Karn going up to a 2-of. Like I said, he is a ****TON of loyalty and all of his abilities are relevant. I'm also not a big fan of the Rings. I agree that they are gimmicky and win-more most of the time.
As far as mana ramp goes, I still stand by 4x Fellwar Stone, 1x Sol Ring and 2x Coalition Relic. This is especially true because those cards work in every single deck you will ever make. 5 color deck? No problem. 3 colo deck? No problem. Mono color deck? No problem. It's an investment into an acceleration package that will serve you for life. You can look at it as 7 cards out of 60 for all of your future decks. That seems like a pretty solid deal to me.
As far as white/green cantripping, there isn't much good stuff to pick and choose from. Land Tax + Scroll Rack is an Ancestral Recall every turn which helps you hit your land drops early on. Green has Sylvan Library which can control your draws and give you some extra ones at a steep cost. If you do add Adjani, he can help offset the life-loss somewhat. Maybe Inheritance? It's pretty good in removal-heavy metas. Remember, you can use it whenever ANY creature dies!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Got any ideas on good/cheap (read mana cost cheap) cyclers or cantrippers since you can't tutor straight for planeswalkers....yet. (Which I guess I could always splash black for the tutor power.)
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
So far the wall package has been useful. Digging through the deck with the Omens and the added ramp from the Battlement has been useful so for now I think I will keep it.
My MP Decks:
BKorlashB
WGSuperfriendsGW
GRBTorrent of SoulsBRG
UWDeath CannonWU
WUBRG5 Color AllyGRBUW
WUBMaster TransmuterBUW