I originally posted this in the Vintage forum (mods, feel free to combine these threads in this forum if you'd like), then realized it's much better in a Legacy environment (after replacing banned cards), so I revamped it - no pun intended. Anyway, I just played my first-ever "Wednesday Night Magic" Legacy tournament tonight at my LGS tonight ($1 entry; prize was a promo card) - and, shockingly, I won! So I thought I'd share my list and ask for any suggestions.
P.S. It was a very "casual" Legacy tournament, as you can see in the spoiler below.
My first match-up was against mono-G Eldrazi ramp (which included Adaptive Automaton as an Eldrazi lord). The first game took forever for me to find the combo pieces, despite having a turn-1 Top, but eventually I got a Dark Confidant to help me draw through my deck. I even managed to survive a hard-casted Emrakul (via Urza-tron + Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple, even after 2 Wastelands took out Urza lands), since the 15/15 annihilator was his only flyer, and hence the only permanent that could block Marit Lage when my combo came out just one turn earlier. I sideboarded out Mental Missteps and Duresses in exchange for Despises and Surgical Extractions, but took a loss in the second game when I couldn't get any black mana. Then everything fell together in game 3: turn 1 Urborg + Dark Ritual + Inquisition of Kozilek + Despise + Expedition Map, he played a forest; turn 2 Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage -> Marit Lage; he drew a card and scooped.
Match 3 was my first real challenge. Opponent was playing a Stax deck. He won the die roll and the game went: turn 2 Chalice of the Void (X=1); turn 3 Trinisphere; turn 4 Chalice of the Void (X=2) and I was locked out. He followed that with Wasteland/Crucible of Worlds and a Smokestack and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for good measure. I made him play it out since I wanted to see what else was in his deck, and he eventually beat me down with a morphed creature that he never flipped over. As I discarded down to 7 cards each turn, I was careful not to reveal any of my combo pieces, so he only knew it was MBC from me discarding Inquisition of Kozileks and Dark Rituals (and maybe a Duress). The only thing I was able to do was drop a Bojuka Bog, which disrupted his Crucible/Wasteland combo. I chose to sideboard in a Pithing Needle, Bojuka Bog, and Surgical Extractions and removed the Go for the Throats. Game 2 I went first... and he incorrectly chose not to mulligan, keeping a hand with only 1 land - which he discarded to play a Mox Diamond on turn 1 (with 2x Leyline of Sanctity in play from his opening hand). I went t1 Urborg ToY + Dark Ritual + Expedition Map tapped and sacced. He LOL'ed at Dark Depths when I showed it to him. He drew and passed turn 2. I played Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage on turn 2, and he scooped. Game 3, he sideboarded some stuff. I faced two Ghostly Prisons, but I managed to get a turn 1 Dark Ritual + Duress + Dark Confidant, turn 2 Sensei's Divining Top, quickly drew my combo pieces, removed other threats, paid the prison taxes, and swung for the win.
- adding a 2nd or 3rd Hex Parasite for the main board; it has done very well for me during testing; acts as an excellent blocker (can surprise an inattentive opponent by becoming a 5/1 or whatever), in addition to serving as a 5th/6th Vampire Hexmage-esque combo piece.
- switching all Swamps to their Snow-covered versions, and putting 2x Scrying Sheets in there so I can draw through the deck a bit quicker when searching for the combo pieces (e.g. when I have lots of disruption but no "Hex" (n)or Dark Depths in my opening hand). I'd probably drop down to 3x Dark Depths and 3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (can usually tutor them up anyway via Expedition Map), and might move the Shizo, Death's Storehouse to the sideboard and drop Lake of the Dead (sometimes it's awesome, but most of the time I don't need the 6-mana boost it can bring) to make room for a few more Snow-covered Swamps. Also, I think I'd have to rename the deck "Icy Depths", what with so many Coldsnap and Ice Age cards (I'm even using Ice Age Dark Rituals).
I'd start by cutting some number of Grim Discovery, and perhaps some of the removal, for 4x Hymn to Tourach. It's among the most powerful cards in Legacy, and is a primary reasons to run a black-heavy deck.
Does Spawning Pool actually do anything for you other than hold back a Knight too lazy to fetch up a Waste? I'd swap it with a Volrath's Stronghold to allow reusing Hexmages beyond Grim Discovery.
Try out that Scrying Sheets, you need a snow count of ~18 to really make it draw you much. Grabbing a fetch + Underground Sea or even a Watery Grave would be a huge improvement due to being able to grab the color when wanted as well as providing an additional shuffle in the deck which ups the synergy with Top some beyond enabling your Sunburst better.
Really should find a way to squeeze in another Dark Confidant since he's just so stupid good. I'd probably cut the Dark Rituals for him and maybe say, three Hymn to Tourachs. Going fast is nice, but in my thoughts, I'd rather safely deploy your wincon than shove it out there slightly faster since you need Depths + Mana producer + Rit to gain speed off from that. Screwing up your opponent's plan in general isn't a bad idea either.
Just some thoughts; I do love the sight of Hex Parasite in here though, I'd overlooked including that in my own thoughts previously.
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I'd start by cutting some number of Grim Discovery, and perhaps some of the removal, for 4x Hymn to Tourach. It's among the most powerful cards in Legacy, and is a primary reasons to run a black-heavy deck.
I have a much larger "test sideboard" from testing this deck over the past couple weeks (the 15 cards in the original post were from tonight's tournament; I'd never played in this group so wasn't sure what the meta was). It includes:
4x Thoughtseize (removed because I often kill myself) 2x Bitterblossom (ditto) 1x Extirpate (prefer Surgical Extraction so far) 4x Dismember (prefer Go for the Throat; also can kill me via Bob) 4x Sadistic Sacrament (ditto re: death via Bob) 2x AEther Snap (unnecessary with Hex Parasite; ditto re: death via Bob) 1x Whispersilk Cloak (currently prefer Shizo or Rite of Consumption) 1x Creeping Tar Pit (left over from B/u Vintage version) 3x Drowned Catacomb (ditto) 2x Homeward Path (1 is enough via Expedition Map) 1x Urborg (prefer a basic Swamp unless I encounter a meta that needs it) 4x Hymn to Tourach (see below)
I like the 1-cmc "my choice" discard spells because (a) they're cheap to cast (usually turn 1), (b) they don't kill me via Bob, and (c) I get to choose the biggest threat. However, they sometimes whiff ("what do you mean you have no non-land non-creature cards (or < 4 cmc cards) in hand?"), and sometimes it would be nice to make an opponent discard their last two cards (or 2 out of 3) - especially when one is a Wasteland. Hymn to Tourach is certainly a better card mid-game. I'm definitely considering purchasing a playset. I could use advice on which art to get.
The reason I'm running 4x Grim Discovery is it's insurance. My deck really only has one wincon. Grim Discovery lets me recover quickly from a countered combo. Tonight, there were at least a couple of times when my I sent my opponent from smiling to groaning - after he countered my combo or bounced my token only to see me shrug and immediately recur both combo pieces for 1 card. In testing, it's common to recover by casting Grim Discovery, drop the Dark Depths, cast the Hexmage (using the Dark Depths via Urborg ToY), and put Marit Lage in play, all in a single turn (and often a surprisingly early turn via Dark Ritual). It allows me to pretty much ignore that top-decked StP, or that Stifle I missed when I ran out of Duresses, and really rubs it in the face of someone who just spent a Force of Will (+ another blue card) on my Vampire Hexmage thinking they'd foiled me. And it has other uses: It also brings back my Urborg ToY that got Wasted, or returns my own Wasteland for reuse. It's been an all-star in this deck - it's basically Life from the Loam that says "return a land and maybe a creature to your hand, or pay an additional BB and return Marit Lage to the battlefield") - and I feel I need 4 of it... despite seeing other (professional) "Hex Depths" lists that only run 2 or 3 (but are usually BWG running KotR/Goyf with a Dark Depths alt-wincon).
I might try running 2x Hymn to Tourach instead of 2x Engineered Explosives (move them to the side board); or keep the Explosives but drop the Go for the Throat count. Tonight's first two opponents had a surprisingly high creature count, but I could have defeated them almost as easily without 4x GftT (maybe easier if I had 4x Hymns). It's more the non-creature decks that scare me.
Does Spawning Pool actually do anything for you other than hold back a Knight too lazy to fetch up a Waste? I'd swap it with a Volrath's Stronghold to allow reusing Hexmages beyond Grim Discovery.
Good point. I only had the singleton Spawning Pool in play once tonight (didn't tutor for it) and it was against the creatureless deck (4th match). I included it after removing a Creeping Tar Pit, which provided an alternate wincon in the B/u Vintage version of this deck (running Demonic Tutor + Vampiric Tutor + Demonic Consultation to find combo pieces, and used some U due to (proxies of) Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Mox Jet, and Black Lotus). I could definitely take it out.
Try out that Scrying Sheets, you need a snow count of ~18 to really make it draw you much. Grabbing a fetch + Underground Sea or even a Watery Grave would be a huge improvement due to being able to grab the color when wanted as well as providing an additional shuffle in the deck which ups the synergy with Top some beyond enabling your Sunburst better.
I hope to get an Underground Sea soon. It's not even really necessary, but it helps out Mental Misstep (marginally) and gives me Engineered Explosives with X=2 (otherwise just have X=0,1... but those are the X values I use most). But putting 4x Polluted Delta in there gives me shuffling + thins my deck + mana fixes. That might be better than the Scrying Sheets idea. Even with 4x Dark Depths, 4x Urborg ToY, 2x Wasteland, 2x Scrying Sheets, and 8x Snow-covered Swamp, that's only a total of 14 snow cards (including the Scrying Sheets themselves) - perhaps not enough to justify it when I could just use fetch lands.
Shizo came from my paranoia of "what if my 20/20 indestructible flyer can't swing through?" (see Vintage thread). Unfortunately fear doesn't mean unblockable (Bitterblossom could spell trouble, for instance). But besides being non-basic, Shizo doesn't have any drawbacks (which an opponent commented on tonight).
Really should find a way to squeeze in another Dark Confidant since he's just so stupid good. I'd probably cut the Dark Rituals for him and maybe say, three Hymn to Tourachs. Going fast is nice, but in my thoughts, I'd rather safely deploy your wincon than shove it out there slightly faster since you need Depths + Mana producer + Rit to gain speed off from that. Screwing up your opponent's plan in general isn't a bad idea either.
I'd run 4x Dark Confidant except I currently own 3. And I got my 3 at about 15% of their current market value - like, 2 months ago! The irony is I didn't even want them, but they were part of a larger trade. When I saw their new value a few weeks ago, I thought... "why not make an eternal format deck?" [/brag]
Anyway, when I have a Dark Ritual in my opening hand, I usually use it to run multiple Duress-like effects (mainly to see what I'm up against and remove an immediate threat), and if I'm satisfied after 1 (or 2) of those 1-drop spells, then I drop a Dark Confidant or Expedition Map or Divining Top or whatever. I rarely go for the combo until I already know it will work (unless I already have both combo pieces AND a Grim Discovery but no Duress-like cards in hand), and I still find the Dark Rituals very valuable. Another common opener is Dark Ritual + Dark Confidant + Divining Top to get the card draw engine going. And against some decks, it is a race to see who can get their wincon on board first (like against Stax effectively locking me down on turn 2, or aggro/stompy decks), so I'm pretty reluctant to drop the Rituals.
Just some thoughts; I do love the sight of Hex Parasite in here though, I'd overlooked including that in my own thoughts previously.
Hex Parasite is also an answer to an X=2 Chalice of the Void - a major concern of this deck. The Parasite works best with Lake of the Dead (which is the primary reason why I was running that land), but it can work OK without it. During testing, I found that with 2x Hex Parasite, I was hitting the combo about 1/8 of the time via it (and Vampire Hexmage the other 7/8 of the time).
By the way, if you can think of any other anti-Chalice tech (esp X=2; e.g. Ratchet Bomb is useless here) in mono-B, please let me know. So far, my best answer is using 3 mana to cast Engineered Explosives with 2 colours of mana (e.g. X=3 for cmc on the stack, but Sunburst=2 for counters purposes).
You'll need 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn to Tourach first and foremost. You are a combo/control deck so your 1 mana hand disruption must be a catch-all. Inquisition and Duress fall short. Sometimes you just want that FoW out of there and other times you want to get rid of a creature to buy time. Thoughtseize guarantees you'll get what you want, even if 2 life can sometimes mean a loss.
Confidant is also necessary as a four-of. It draws cards and draws the opponent's attention. This is exactly what you want. Sensei's Top, while vulnerable to Misstep, is an excellent card in combination with Confidant and enough fetchland. The fact that you play Thoughtseize and Hymn means you can even sandbag a Top, and play it when you know it'll resolve. I'd go up to three Tops and four Confidants.
I don't think you'll need four Missteps. If you do, put them in the side. Having Seize and Hymn already is pretty crushing and you don't want to make late topdecks worse when you need to control the game or combo out. The lifeloss starts to stack up and Seize beats Misstep for a main deck spot. Even if Inquisition and Duress are solid cards in their own right.
EE is terrible in a mono colored deck. It's just so narrow. It needs to be cut.
Just play more spot removal. Diversify between Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Go for the Throat and Dismember. They're all good, Dismember being a bit tricky, but still very strong.
Stuff like Hex Parasite is useless. You just need to control the early game, spin your top, and create a 20/20. Play cards that work toward that goal. If Chalice for 2 hits it hurts, but it's not that easy when you get the chance to get in a Seize/Hymn before his turn 2,3. Either way, against Chalice decks you just aim to resolve one (mull aggressively) before Chalice hits. Then worry about his wastelands for you depths.
About that, this is really a problem. A Wasteland on the table staring at you makes your life so much worse. Is that why you play so many non-basics? Just lure them into destroying the wrong land? That's actually pretty cool. I'd suggest playing Urborg, I don't like the ones that come into play tapped.
You'll need 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn to Tourach first and foremost. You are a combo/control deck so your 1 mana hand disruption must be a catch-all. Inquisition and Duress fall short. Sometimes you just want that FoW out of there and other times you want to get rid of a creature to buy time. Thoughtseize guarantees you'll get what you want, even if 2 life can sometimes mean a loss.
Confidant is also necessary as a four-of. It draws cards and draws the opponent's attention. This is exactly what you want. Sensei's Top, while vulnerable to Misstep, is an excellent card in combination with Confidant and enough fetchland. The fact that you play Thoughtseize and Hymn means you can even sandbag a Top, and play it when you know it'll resolve. I'd go up to three Tops and four Confidants.
I don't think you'll need four Missteps. If you do, put them in the side. Having Seize and Hymn already is pretty crushing and you don't want to make late topdecks worse when you need to control the game or combo out. The lifeloss starts to stack up and Seize beats Misstep for a main deck spot. Even if Inquisition and Duress are solid cards in their own right.
EE is terrible in a mono colored deck. It's just so narrow. It needs to be cut.
Just play more spot removal. Diversify between Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Go for the Throat and Dismember. They're all good, Dismember being a bit tricky, but still very strong.
Stuff like Hex Parasite is useless. You just need to control the early game, spin your top, and create a 20/20. Play cards that work toward that goal. If Chalice for 2 hits it hurts, but it's not that easy when you get the chance to get in a Seize/Hymn before his turn 2,3. Either way, against Chalice decks you just aim to resolve one (mull aggressively) before Chalice hits. Then worry about his wastelands for you depths.
What you describe sounds like where I started: All about getting out the combo, with 4x Thoughtseize as the primary disruption, and Dark Confidant + Vampire Hexmage as the only creatures (I didn't consider Hymn to Tourach until I started net-decking to see what other peoples' "Hex Depths" decks looked like). During testing, I found that Thoughtseize cost me some games; between it and Dark Confidant, I was often down to ~ 8 life and my opponent finished me off just as I found my combo pieces. But I'll try it again with more Tops.
Anyway, then I started considering my opponent's answers to this deck. That's where Mental Misstep comes in. Pre-New Phyrexia "Hex Depths" decks were "easy to disrupt" because Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Stifle, etc, could easily 2-for-1 me. Mental Misstep is defense against all of those, and can handle various other 1-drops as well (Divining Top, GSZ for Dryad Arbor against elves/NO decks, etc).
Next, Chalice of the Void is a major concern (and sure enough, it locked me out of a game Wednesday night). I felt I needed an answer besides my 1-drop disruption. That's where Engineered Explosives comes in. With X=0, it takes out Chalices, and it can also take out my opponent's tokens if I'm up against a token combo deck (leaves Marit Lage alone). And having a single dual land in there (which can be fetched with Expedition Map... and I'll move to Polluted Deltas once I get that Underground Sea), I can play EE with X=0, 1, or 2. So it's narrow in that it will usually be X=0 or 1, but it's pretty much my only answer to one of my most dreaded threats (and by threat, I mean my opponent's answer to my deck).
Regarding removal spells, I plan to stick with Go for the Throat for now, and will tune it to the meta. I tried Geth's Verdict (better than Diabolic Edict in mono-black imo), but it's only useful in this deck when my opponent only has 1 creature (or they're all equally threatening). Dismember would be my only 3 cmc spell (which I avoid due to Bob), and I haven't yet faced a deck where it would be better than GftT. And Innocent Blood is only good if I don't have any creatures (I rarely have more than 1 in play); I often get Bob in play turn 1 (via Dark Ritual) or 2, so that makes Innocent Blood into a 2-for-1 against me.
Hex Parasite was added as another way to dodge Chalice (at least, with X=2), and gives me another way to get Marit Lage in play (e.g. acts like a 5th and 6th Hexmage). It's won me some games during testing, but I can see an argument for replacing it with more disruption. I'm reluctant to take it out, but it's probably the worst card in my deck.
About that, this is really a problem. A Wasteland on the table staring at you makes your life so much worse. Is that why you play so many non-basics? Just lure them into destroying the wrong land? That's actually pretty cool. I'd suggest playing Urborg, I don't like the ones that come into play tapped.
Between 4x Expedition Map and 4x Grim Discovery, I'm not too worried about Wasteland... except when they also have Crucible of Worlds in play. And while I hadn't "designed" it this way on purpose, you're right: On Wednesday, everybody targeted my Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with their Wastelands (usually immediately after playing it). They probably felt that it would sufficiently disrupt my mana base, and that my Urborg ToY was probably a 1-of. Another time, I had Dark Depths in hand (but no Vampire Hexmage or Hex Parasite) with little else to do with my mana (had already removed all the non-land cards from my opponent's hand), so I played Expedition Map to find my dual land (Tainted Isle until I can get an Underground Sea). My opponent immediately blew up the dual, and I was free to play Dark Depths when the time came.
The only "comes into play tapped" lands I've been playing are Spawning Pool (which has been underwhelming in general and will be pulled) and Bojuka Bog. I used to sideboard 2x Bojuka Bog, but now I keep one in the main deck. It's a silver bullet vs dredge, and has already come in handy vs Wasteland/Crucible (although there was no chance of me winning that game). Shizo, Death's Storehouse has no drawback besides being non-basic/legendary, but I can't imagine anybody Wasting it... and I haven't ever "needed" it to win, so it could be pulled for a basic (e.g. fetchable with Polluted Delta).
I've taken out Lake of the Dead because I rarely need the mana it can provide, and it's a huge target for Wasteland after I've sacced two of my own lands. Basically it was only good if I could win the game the turn it came into play (for 6 mana), but if my opponent top-decked an answer for Marit Lage, it left me 2 turns behind. But I might add a Cabal Coffers... purely as a bluff. It would certainly be an obvious target for my opponent's Wasteland... and they don't know that I don't actually have a use for its mana!
Look at train wreck for ideas. As they are the only mono black deck in legacy.
All the versions of Train Wreck I've seen are B/g "big mana" decks (to iterate a mana-intensive Helldozer/Staff of Domination combo) that run 3-4x Cabal Coffers and can't run Bob (too many high-cmc spells). They pack some disruption (it more-or-less plays like MBC for much of the game), but besides that, they don't have much in common with this deck. Train Wreck is about controlling the game for many turns, eliminating their hand, board, lands, and then finally going in for the kill. My deck wants some early disruption, then beat them over the head with a 20/20 that can come out as early as turn 2. I generally don't want the game to go to turn 6-7, but have enough disruption and card draw for mid-game that hopefully I can hit my combo before my opponent stabilizes and locks the board.
(still considering a couple of Hex Parasites, and 4x Duress instead of 4x Thoughtseize, or perhaps instead of 4x Mental Misstep; I'll test various combinations against decks I expect to face and see what wins - or loses - me games in each case)
By the way, notice some interesting synergy when I add fetch lands:
- Grim Discovery can be used to bring back Vampire Hexmage (or Dark Confidant if no Hexmage) + Polluted Delta when there aren't any more important lands in my graveyard (e.g. Dark Depths, Wasteland, maybe Urborg ToY when I otherwise can't generate black mana)
- Urborg ToY makes fetch lands tap for B, so if I'm running low on targets (or the 1 life becomes relevant), I don't need to sac/fetch with it for it to be useful.
But the way the combo works allows the opponent to waste your depths in response to yo the depths trigger, the "when there are no counters..." trigger.
Innocent Blood was a bad suggestion, you're right. I took a page out of Deedstills removal suite but that's just silly. They play no creatures at all.
But the way the combo works allows the opponent to waste your depths in response to yo the depths trigger, the "when there are no counters..." trigger.
Misunderstanding. I realize that I have to get them to use any Wastelands they have on the battlefield before dropping the combo. If they're patient enough to leave my other lands alone, then eventually I have to either have a back-up for my Dark Depths (e.g. let them waste it; then play a second one, or recur the first one via Grim Discovery, or tutor one up via Expedition Map), or play a Wasteland of my own targeting theirs (and they get to take out one of my other non-basics for free)... before I can play Dark Depths for the combo. It's certainly not ideal, but I can deal with it. Basically, I've got so much redundancy in my deck that they'll have to deal with Dark Depths / Marit Lage over and over again; a one-shot answer isn't enough.
I've used it and Hex Parasite (preferably the latter, since it gets pumped rather than sacced) to take out planeswalkers during testing. They can also take counters off of Chalice of the Void (making it X=0), but they have to find their way onto the battlefield first (e.g. usually have to get there before Chalice does). Ditto for Smokestack, Joraga Warcaller, anything with the "level up" mechanic, etc.
4 missteps is a must to counter stp. No pair of forests for a living wish board?
I've thought about splashing green, but more for Crop Rotation. For various reasons (not the least of which is the crucial need to generate BB in this deck), I'd prefer to keep it mono-B (with the exception of Mental Misstep and a single dual land). If I run into match-ups where I'm a heavy dog and another colour would allow this deck to be competive, then I'll consider more colours (e.g. Junk featuring KotR), but then the tendency is to build around a different archetype (e.g. Junk control) with Dark Depths as a secondary "oops: 20/20" wincon.
(also, my budget would be stretched if I needed several revised dual lands, a playset of Tarmogoyfs, etc)
I'm playing in a local legacy tournament tomorrow, so I thought I'd post my most recent list. It hasn't changed much from post #7, except during testing I found that I often removed my opponent's entire hand (mostly thanks to Hymn to Tourach) and then I'd end up with a bunch of dead cards in hand (more Hymns, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek) while my opponent was in top-deck mode. As a result, I decided to cut 2x Thoughtseize and put 2x Surgical Extraction in the main deck, since it tends to be more useful at any point in the game (e.g. prevents opponents from top-decking previously used counterspells or threats I've removed from their hands). There might be better options. I'm open to suggestions. It's too bad there's no Duress-like card with cycling.
- optionally omit 2x Pithing Needle vs creature-heavy decks without activated abilities (or planeswalkers), and instead leave in 2x Engineered Explosives; it's especially useful vs token decks and zoo.
When side-boarded in, Rite of Consumption has some interesting synergy with other cards in the deck. Besides throwing Marit Lage at my opponent's face for 20 damage, it can be used to fling a pumped up Hex Parasite (perhaps after taking out a troublesome planeswalker) for some quick damage + life gain. It can also be used to remove Bob before he kills me. One recurring series of events involves attacking with Bob when my life is low (which my opponent opts not to block, aware of my desire to dump Bob), then casting Rite of Consumption during my second main phase. The net result is a 6 life swing.
upkeep/draw phase: draw the Polluted Delta (with or without Bob's help).
play the Polluted Delta as my land drop. If I drew more than 1 card (via Bob), then "Top" again (desperately searching for Vampire Hexmage) with the intention of using its tap ability to draw it.
if no luck, activate the fetch land, putting a Snow-covered Swamp in play, and shuffle away the chaff.
then "Top": use it's tap ability to draw Vampire Hexmage if it's there; otherwise...
If I am to try to keep this deck alive, I have no reason to splash U anymore. Do I splash G instead to give me Crop Rotation and Living Wish? Or do I more sincerely splash U for Mana Leak or Negate (or even change the deck to CounterTop with Hex/Depths as a wincon)?
If I am to try to keep this deck alive, I have no reason to splash U anymore. Do I splash G instead to give me Crop Rotation and Living Wish? Or do I more sincerely splash U for Mana Leak or Negate (or even change the deck to CounterTop with Hex/Depths as a wincon)?
countertop could work, but then you might as well port the old extended counter-top/hex depths/thopter sword deck and have one mean control deck.
As far as just splashing blue for counters goes, and you're worried about instants, I would think that dispel or spell pierce would be more useful?
Since this deck is more of a mid-range control/combo deck, would Mana Leak be more effective than Daze (despite not being a "free" spell)?
Also, the abundance of "3-ofs" is due to me not really knowing which cards are best in this deck at this point - e.g. Brainstorm vs Ponder; Daze (or Mana Leak) vs Spell Pierce; Grim Discovery (it was a champ in the old version); Hymn to Tourach (I'd like my opponent cardless while I counter anything they top-deck). I'll adjust these to "4-ofs" and "2-ofs" (or cut altogether) after some testing.
I've decided not to go with Living Wish at this point, and instead a more straight-forward U/ Counter-Top build. So far, this deck has been doing OK in testing:
I added Phyrexian Arena for even more drawing power, and to give me 3-drop counters via Counterbalance. It has been working surprisingly well, and so far I've been able to avoid paying 3 life via Dark Confidant.
I'm thinking of adding Lim-Dul's Vault to help me find the combo pieces. It's like a Vampiric Tutor combined with a 5-deep (total) top-deck fix for UB, and it's instant-speed. The problem is I'm not sure what to cut for it.
Can I get away with cutting 1x Couterbalance and/or a Sensei's Divining Top? They're often dead draws after the first is in play - but that requires me to find them and get them to stick. I might be able to cut 1x Dark Confidant and/or Phyrexian Arena, since I don't need quite that much total drawing power (I'm often discarding down to 7, tossing away extra Urborgs, Counterbalances, and Divining Tops).
I can also use more mana fixing, and thought that Sunken Ruins will especially help with generating either UU (Counterbalance) or BB (Vampire Hexmage, Hymn to Tourach, Phyrexian Arena). With the added "tutor", I think I can get away with 3x each of the legendary lands. Here's the list I might try:
After a lot of testing, I'm not impressed with the Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top combo. Sometimes I'd have trouble making UU, other times I just wouldn't draw into it, and when I did finally get it working it would be turn 4+ and my opponent wouldn't be playing 1-2 cmc spells anymore... so it was completely useless and a waste of effort more times than not. I guess if I'm up against a deck comprised of only 1 and 2-cmc spells, it would work, but...
In the end, I found myself wishing it was just a Counterspell. Since then, it's evolved towards a UB Draw-Go style of deck. I'm not running FoW because (a) I don't have any and (b) I have a lot of non-blue cards in here, so I'm playing 2-cmc counterspells. Here's my current list:
I'm now playing 4x creature removal main (can side in Countersqualls against creatureless decks), since there are a lot of creature-heavy decks in my meta. There are 4x more creature removal in the sideboard to swap with Spell Pierce vs particularly aggro creatures with few other spells.
The more I test this deck, the more I wonder why Lim-Dul's Vault isn't played more. It seems like the perfect card for UB control/combo. Or is it because nobody plays UB control/combo? I'll quote myself and say "It's like a Vampiric Tutor combined with a 5-deep (total) top-deck fix for UB, and it's instant-speed." What more can you ask for? And somehow it hasn't been banned (perhaps because it costs 2 rather than 1).
P.S. It was a very "casual" Legacy tournament, as you can see in the spoiler below.
4x Dark Depths
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Lake of the Dead
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Spawning Pool
1x Tainted Isle
2x Wasteland
5x Swamp
Creatures (8)
4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
1x Hex Parasite
4x Expedition Map
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Engineered Explosives
Sorceries (12)
4x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Grim Discovery
Instants (12)
4x Go for the Throat
4x Mental Misstep
4x Dark Ritual
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Homeward Path
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pithing Needle
4x Despise
4x Geth's Verdict
1x Rite of Consumption
1x Damnation
My first match-up was against mono-G Eldrazi ramp (which included Adaptive Automaton as an Eldrazi lord). The first game took forever for me to find the combo pieces, despite having a turn-1 Top, but eventually I got a Dark Confidant to help me draw through my deck. I even managed to survive a hard-casted Emrakul (via Urza-tron + Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple, even after 2 Wastelands took out Urza lands), since the 15/15 annihilator was his only flyer, and hence the only permanent that could block Marit Lage when my combo came out just one turn earlier. I sideboarded out Mental Missteps and Duresses in exchange for Despises and Surgical Extractions, but took a loss in the second game when I couldn't get any black mana. Then everything fell together in game 3: turn 1 Urborg + Dark Ritual + Inquisition of Kozilek + Despise + Expedition Map, he played a forest; turn 2 Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage -> Marit Lage; he drew a card and scooped.
Match 2 was against a standard deck (G/W deck with Grazing Gladehart, Gideon's Avenger, Doubling Chant, Gideon Jura, Primordial Hydra as his finisher... and Karn Liberated for kicks?). I went 2-0 pretty easily, powering out the combo while Go for the Throating his (Doubling Chanted) Gideon's Avengers. For the second game, I made a similar side-board move as with the Eldrazi deck; basically more creature disruption, since I didn't have to worry too much about Stifle/Swords to Plowshares/Force of Will/etc.
Match 3 was my first real challenge. Opponent was playing a Stax deck. He won the die roll and the game went: turn 2 Chalice of the Void (X=1); turn 3 Trinisphere; turn 4 Chalice of the Void (X=2) and I was locked out. He followed that with Wasteland/Crucible of Worlds and a Smokestack and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for good measure. I made him play it out since I wanted to see what else was in his deck, and he eventually beat me down with a morphed creature that he never flipped over. As I discarded down to 7 cards each turn, I was careful not to reveal any of my combo pieces, so he only knew it was MBC from me discarding Inquisition of Kozileks and Dark Rituals (and maybe a Duress). The only thing I was able to do was drop a Bojuka Bog, which disrupted his Crucible/Wasteland combo. I chose to sideboard in a Pithing Needle, Bojuka Bog, and Surgical Extractions and removed the Go for the Throats. Game 2 I went first... and he incorrectly chose not to mulligan, keeping a hand with only 1 land - which he discarded to play a Mox Diamond on turn 1 (with 2x Leyline of Sanctity in play from his opening hand). I went t1 Urborg ToY + Dark Ritual + Expedition Map tapped and sacced. He LOL'ed at Dark Depths when I showed it to him. He drew and passed turn 2. I played Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage on turn 2, and he scooped. Game 3, he sideboarded some stuff. I faced two Ghostly Prisons, but I managed to get a turn 1 Dark Ritual + Duress + Dark Confidant, turn 2 Sensei's Divining Top, quickly drew my combo pieces, removed other threats, paid the prison taxes, and swung for the win.
Match 4 was against another Stax-ish deck. This build had 4x Force of Will, 4x Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, 4x Tangling Wire, 4x Repeal, 4x Psychic Venom, and 4x Rishadan Port to win through tapping my venomous land. I don't remember the first game very well, but I do remember having 2x Vampire Hexmage in my opening hand, and either a Dark Depths or an Expedition Map that I used early to fetch it. In any case, he Dazed my first Hexmage, Forced my second, and Wastelanded my Dark Depths, and had 2x Psychic Venom on my only Swamp... but I used Grim Discovery to get back my combo pieces and got it through when he ran out of answers, swinging for the win. I chose to make the same sideboard moves as vs the previous Stax deck, except I also brought in Rite of Consumption (aka "a better Fling"). The second game, I used a turn 1 Duress to remove his Force of Will, then Surgically Extracted it. Then used 2x Inquisition of Kozilek's to remove a Standstill and a Repeal before (successfully) attempting the Hex Depths combo. His 2x Tangling Wires and 2x Maze of Iths on board kept my Dark Confidant and Marit Lage tapped. He also got 2x Psychic Venom on one of my Swamps, and kept tapping it with a Rishidan Port, putting me on a 5-turn clock. And he top-decked another Repeal to eliminate Marit Lage. But I immediately got it back via a Grim Discovery. Then I Expedition Mapped into a Wasteland, took out a Maze of Ith, used Grim Discovery the next turn to get it back and Waste the other Maze of Ith, and was finally able to keep Marit Lage untapped for the winning blow. I certainly could have saved some turns if I'd been able to draw into that Rite of Consumption, though (e.g. wouldn't have needed Marit Lage to be untapped).
Oh, and note that I don't have to pay The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale's cost for Marit Lage since she's indestructible...
- adding a 2nd or 3rd Hex Parasite for the main board; it has done very well for me during testing; acts as an excellent blocker (can surprise an inattentive opponent by becoming a 5/1 or whatever), in addition to serving as a 5th/6th Vampire Hexmage-esque combo piece.
- switching all Swamps to their Snow-covered versions, and putting 2x Scrying Sheets in there so I can draw through the deck a bit quicker when searching for the combo pieces (e.g. when I have lots of disruption but no "Hex" (n)or Dark Depths in my opening hand). I'd probably drop down to 3x Dark Depths and 3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (can usually tutor them up anyway via Expedition Map), and might move the Shizo, Death's Storehouse to the sideboard and drop Lake of the Dead (sometimes it's awesome, but most of the time I don't need the 6-mana boost it can bring) to make room for a few more Snow-covered Swamps. Also, I think I'd have to rename the deck "Icy Depths", what with so many Coldsnap and Ice Age cards (I'm even using Ice Age Dark Rituals).
The deck might look like this:
3x Dark Depths
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Scrying Sheets
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Spawning Pool (?)
1x Tainted Isle (wannabe Underground Sea)
2x Wasteland
7x Snow-covered Swamp
Creatures (9)
4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
2x Hex Parasite
4x Expedition Map
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
Sorceries (12)
4x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Grim Discovery
Instants (12)
4x Go for the Throat
4x Mental Misstep
4x Dark Ritual
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Homeward Path
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Despise
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
Try out that Scrying Sheets, you need a snow count of ~18 to really make it draw you much. Grabbing a fetch + Underground Sea or even a Watery Grave would be a huge improvement due to being able to grab the color when wanted as well as providing an additional shuffle in the deck which ups the synergy with Top some beyond enabling your Sunburst better.
Shizo, Death's Storehouse I'd deem unneeded unless there's a lot of flyers in your meta.
Really should find a way to squeeze in another Dark Confidant since he's just so stupid good. I'd probably cut the Dark Rituals for him and maybe say, three Hymn to Tourachs. Going fast is nice, but in my thoughts, I'd rather safely deploy your wincon than shove it out there slightly faster since you need Depths + Mana producer + Rit to gain speed off from that. Screwing up your opponent's plan in general isn't a bad idea either.
Just some thoughts; I do love the sight of Hex Parasite in here though, I'd overlooked including that in my own thoughts previously.
BWG Dark Horizons
UWB Esper Stoneblade
GUB Lands
BGB (Pact) Spanish Inquisition
EDH:
BGW Karador, Spirit Warmage
I have a much larger "test sideboard" from testing this deck over the past couple weeks (the 15 cards in the original post were from tonight's tournament; I'd never played in this group so wasn't sure what the meta was). It includes:
2x Bitterblossom (ditto)
1x Extirpate (prefer Surgical Extraction so far)
4x Dismember (prefer Go for the Throat; also can kill me via Bob)
4x Sadistic Sacrament (ditto re: death via Bob)
2x AEther Snap (unnecessary with Hex Parasite; ditto re: death via Bob)
1x Whispersilk Cloak (currently prefer Shizo or Rite of Consumption)
1x Creeping Tar Pit (left over from B/u Vintage version)
3x Drowned Catacomb (ditto)
2x Homeward Path (1 is enough via Expedition Map)
1x Urborg (prefer a basic Swamp unless I encounter a meta that needs it)
4x Hymn to Tourach (see below)
I like the 1-cmc "my choice" discard spells because (a) they're cheap to cast (usually turn 1), (b) they don't kill me via Bob, and (c) I get to choose the biggest threat. However, they sometimes whiff ("what do you mean you have no non-land non-creature cards (or < 4 cmc cards) in hand?"), and sometimes it would be nice to make an opponent discard their last two cards (or 2 out of 3) - especially when one is a Wasteland. Hymn to Tourach is certainly a better card mid-game. I'm definitely considering purchasing a playset. I could use advice on which art to get.
The reason I'm running 4x Grim Discovery is it's insurance. My deck really only has one wincon. Grim Discovery lets me recover quickly from a countered combo. Tonight, there were at least a couple of times when my I sent my opponent from smiling to groaning - after he countered my combo or bounced my token only to see me shrug and immediately recur both combo pieces for 1 card. In testing, it's common to recover by casting Grim Discovery, drop the Dark Depths, cast the Hexmage (using the Dark Depths via Urborg ToY), and put Marit Lage in play, all in a single turn (and often a surprisingly early turn via Dark Ritual). It allows me to pretty much ignore that top-decked StP, or that Stifle I missed when I ran out of Duresses, and really rubs it in the face of someone who just spent a Force of Will (+ another blue card) on my Vampire Hexmage thinking they'd foiled me. And it has other uses: It also brings back my Urborg ToY that got Wasted, or returns my own Wasteland for reuse. It's been an all-star in this deck - it's basically Life from the Loam that says "return a land and maybe a creature to your hand, or pay an additional BB and return Marit Lage to the battlefield") - and I feel I need 4 of it... despite seeing other (professional) "Hex Depths" lists that only run 2 or 3 (but are usually BWG running KotR/Goyf with a Dark Depths alt-wincon).
I might try running 2x Hymn to Tourach instead of 2x Engineered Explosives (move them to the side board); or keep the Explosives but drop the Go for the Throat count. Tonight's first two opponents had a surprisingly high creature count, but I could have defeated them almost as easily without 4x GftT (maybe easier if I had 4x Hymns). It's more the non-creature decks that scare me.
*edit*
Good point. I only had the singleton Spawning Pool in play once tonight (didn't tutor for it) and it was against the creatureless deck (4th match). I included it after removing a Creeping Tar Pit, which provided an alternate wincon in the B/u Vintage version of this deck (running Demonic Tutor + Vampiric Tutor + Demonic Consultation to find combo pieces, and used some U due to (proxies of) Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Mox Jet, and Black Lotus). I could definitely take it out.
Volrath's Stronghold might let me take out a Grim Discovery since (a) it covers Vampire Hexmage/Hex Parasite/Dark Confidant, and (b) it can be tutored via Expedition Map. And that frees up a slot for a Hymn to Tourach...
I hope to get an Underground Sea soon. It's not even really necessary, but it helps out Mental Misstep (marginally) and gives me Engineered Explosives with X=2 (otherwise just have X=0,1... but those are the X values I use most). But putting 4x Polluted Delta in there gives me shuffling + thins my deck + mana fixes. That might be better than the Scrying Sheets idea. Even with 4x Dark Depths, 4x Urborg ToY, 2x Wasteland, 2x Scrying Sheets, and 8x Snow-covered Swamp, that's only a total of 14 snow cards (including the Scrying Sheets themselves) - perhaps not enough to justify it when I could just use fetch lands.
Shizo came from my paranoia of "what if my 20/20 indestructible flyer can't swing through?" (see Vintage thread). Unfortunately fear doesn't mean unblockable (Bitterblossom could spell trouble, for instance). But besides being non-basic, Shizo doesn't have any drawbacks (which an opponent commented on tonight).
I'd run 4x Dark Confidant except I currently own 3. And I got my 3 at about 15% of their current market value - like, 2 months ago! The irony is I didn't even want them, but they were part of a larger trade. When I saw their new value a few weeks ago, I thought... "why not make an eternal format deck?"
Anyway, when I have a Dark Ritual in my opening hand, I usually use it to run multiple Duress-like effects (mainly to see what I'm up against and remove an immediate threat), and if I'm satisfied after 1 (or 2) of those 1-drop spells, then I drop a Dark Confidant or Expedition Map or Divining Top or whatever. I rarely go for the combo until I already know it will work (unless I already have both combo pieces AND a Grim Discovery but no Duress-like cards in hand), and I still find the Dark Rituals very valuable. Another common opener is Dark Ritual + Dark Confidant + Divining Top to get the card draw engine going. And against some decks, it is a race to see who can get their wincon on board first (like against Stax effectively locking me down on turn 2, or aggro/stompy decks), so I'm pretty reluctant to drop the Rituals.
Hex Parasite is also an answer to an X=2 Chalice of the Void - a major concern of this deck. The Parasite works best with Lake of the Dead (which is the primary reason why I was running that land), but it can work OK without it. During testing, I found that with 2x Hex Parasite, I was hitting the combo about 1/8 of the time via it (and Vampire Hexmage the other 7/8 of the time).
By the way, if you can think of any other anti-Chalice tech (esp X=2; e.g. Ratchet Bomb is useless here) in mono-B, please let me know. So far, my best answer is using 3 mana to cast Engineered Explosives with 2 colours of mana (e.g. X=3 for cmc on the stack, but Sunburst=2 for counters purposes).
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
Confidant is also necessary as a four-of. It draws cards and draws the opponent's attention. This is exactly what you want. Sensei's Top, while vulnerable to Misstep, is an excellent card in combination with Confidant and enough fetchland. The fact that you play Thoughtseize and Hymn means you can even sandbag a Top, and play it when you know it'll resolve. I'd go up to three Tops and four Confidants.
I don't think you'll need four Missteps. If you do, put them in the side. Having Seize and Hymn already is pretty crushing and you don't want to make late topdecks worse when you need to control the game or combo out. The lifeloss starts to stack up and Seize beats Misstep for a main deck spot. Even if Inquisition and Duress are solid cards in their own right.
EE is terrible in a mono colored deck. It's just so narrow. It needs to be cut.
Just play more spot removal. Diversify between Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Go for the Throat and Dismember. They're all good, Dismember being a bit tricky, but still very strong.
Stuff like Hex Parasite is useless. You just need to control the early game, spin your top, and create a 20/20. Play cards that work toward that goal. If Chalice for 2 hits it hurts, but it's not that easy when you get the chance to get in a Seize/Hymn before his turn 2,3. Either way, against Chalice decks you just aim to resolve one (mull aggressively) before Chalice hits. Then worry about his wastelands for you depths.
About that, this is really a problem. A Wasteland on the table staring at you makes your life so much worse. Is that why you play so many non-basics? Just lure them into destroying the wrong land? That's actually pretty cool. I'd suggest playing Urborg, I don't like the ones that come into play tapped.
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
What you describe sounds like where I started: All about getting out the combo, with 4x Thoughtseize as the primary disruption, and Dark Confidant + Vampire Hexmage as the only creatures (I didn't consider Hymn to Tourach until I started net-decking to see what other peoples' "Hex Depths" decks looked like). During testing, I found that Thoughtseize cost me some games; between it and Dark Confidant, I was often down to ~ 8 life and my opponent finished me off just as I found my combo pieces. But I'll try it again with more Tops.
Anyway, then I started considering my opponent's answers to this deck. That's where Mental Misstep comes in. Pre-New Phyrexia "Hex Depths" decks were "easy to disrupt" because Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Stifle, etc, could easily 2-for-1 me. Mental Misstep is defense against all of those, and can handle various other 1-drops as well (Divining Top, GSZ for Dryad Arbor against elves/NO decks, etc).
Next, Chalice of the Void is a major concern (and sure enough, it locked me out of a game Wednesday night). I felt I needed an answer besides my 1-drop disruption. That's where Engineered Explosives comes in. With X=0, it takes out Chalices, and it can also take out my opponent's tokens if I'm up against a token combo deck (leaves Marit Lage alone). And having a single dual land in there (which can be fetched with Expedition Map... and I'll move to Polluted Deltas once I get that Underground Sea), I can play EE with X=0, 1, or 2. So it's narrow in that it will usually be X=0 or 1, but it's pretty much my only answer to one of my most dreaded threats (and by threat, I mean my opponent's answer to my deck).
Regarding removal spells, I plan to stick with Go for the Throat for now, and will tune it to the meta. I tried Geth's Verdict (better than Diabolic Edict in mono-black imo), but it's only useful in this deck when my opponent only has 1 creature (or they're all equally threatening). Dismember would be my only 3 cmc spell (which I avoid due to Bob), and I haven't yet faced a deck where it would be better than GftT. And Innocent Blood is only good if I don't have any creatures (I rarely have more than 1 in play); I often get Bob in play turn 1 (via Dark Ritual) or 2, so that makes Innocent Blood into a 2-for-1 against me.
Hex Parasite was added as another way to dodge Chalice (at least, with X=2), and gives me another way to get Marit Lage in play (e.g. acts like a 5th and 6th Hexmage). It's won me some games during testing, but I can see an argument for replacing it with more disruption. I'm reluctant to take it out, but it's probably the worst card in my deck.
Between 4x Expedition Map and 4x Grim Discovery, I'm not too worried about Wasteland... except when they also have Crucible of Worlds in play. And while I hadn't "designed" it this way on purpose, you're right: On Wednesday, everybody targeted my Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with their Wastelands (usually immediately after playing it). They probably felt that it would sufficiently disrupt my mana base, and that my Urborg ToY was probably a 1-of. Another time, I had Dark Depths in hand (but no Vampire Hexmage or Hex Parasite) with little else to do with my mana (had already removed all the non-land cards from my opponent's hand), so I played Expedition Map to find my dual land (Tainted Isle until I can get an Underground Sea). My opponent immediately blew up the dual, and I was free to play Dark Depths when the time came.
By the way, I never play Dark Depths unless I will play Vampire Hexmage (or Hex Parasite) on the same turn, or I have the means to immediately recover it (via Expedition Map or Grim Discovery, or I have a second Dark Depths in hand). This way, they'll need more than one Wasteland to ruin my day (or Life from the Loam, or Crucible of Worlds... which is one of the reasons I have a Bojuka Bog in the main deck).
The only "comes into play tapped" lands I've been playing are Spawning Pool (which has been underwhelming in general and will be pulled) and Bojuka Bog. I used to sideboard 2x Bojuka Bog, but now I keep one in the main deck. It's a silver bullet vs dredge, and has already come in handy vs Wasteland/Crucible (although there was no chance of me winning that game). Shizo, Death's Storehouse has no drawback besides being non-basic/legendary, but I can't imagine anybody Wasting it... and I haven't ever "needed" it to win, so it could be pulled for a basic (e.g. fetchable with Polluted Delta).
I've taken out Lake of the Dead because I rarely need the mana it can provide, and it's a huge target for Wasteland after I've sacced two of my own lands. Basically it was only good if I could win the game the turn it came into play (for 6 mana), but if my opponent top-decked an answer for Marit Lage, it left me 2 turns behind. But I might add a Cabal Coffers... purely as a bluff. It would certainly be an obvious target for my opponent's Wasteland... and they don't know that I don't actually have a use for its mana!
All the versions of Train Wreck I've seen are B/g "big mana" decks (to iterate a mana-intensive Helldozer/Staff of Domination combo) that run 3-4x Cabal Coffers and can't run Bob (too many high-cmc spells). They pack some disruption (it more-or-less plays like MBC for much of the game), but besides that, they don't have much in common with this deck. Train Wreck is about controlling the game for many turns, eliminating their hand, board, lands, and then finally going in for the kill. My deck wants some early disruption, then beat them over the head with a 20/20 that can come out as early as turn 2. I generally don't want the game to go to turn 6-7, but have enough disruption and card draw for mid-game that hopefully I can hit my combo before my opponent stabilizes and locks the board.
---------
My revised list looks like this right now:
4x Dark Depths
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Wasteland
Instants (8)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mental Misstep
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Grim Discovery
4x Hymn to Tourach
Artifact (9)
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Expedition Map
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures (7)
3x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Despise
4x Go for the Throat
1x Homeward Path
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rite of Consumption
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2x Surgical Extraction
(still considering a couple of Hex Parasites, and 4x Duress instead of 4x Thoughtseize, or perhaps instead of 4x Mental Misstep; I'll test various combinations against decks I expect to face and see what wins - or loses - me games in each case)
If I had one more Dark Confidant, I'd probably swap it in and drop to 3x Mental Misstep.
I've been thinking about the Scrying Sheets/Snow-covered Swamp idea and I might test it, but fetch lands and an Underground Sea will probably be more powerful most of the time.
By the way, notice some interesting synergy when I add fetch lands:
- Grim Discovery can be used to bring back Vampire Hexmage (or Dark Confidant if no Hexmage) + Polluted Delta when there aren't any more important lands in my graveyard (e.g. Dark Depths, Wasteland, maybe Urborg ToY when I otherwise can't generate black mana)
- Urborg ToY makes fetch lands tap for B, so if I'm running low on targets (or the 1 life becomes relevant), I don't need to sac/fetch with it for it to be useful.
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
Innocent Blood was a bad suggestion, you're right. I took a page out of Deedstills removal suite but that's just silly. They play no creatures at all.
I like how Hexmage kills planeswalkers.
Misunderstanding. I realize that I have to get them to use any Wastelands they have on the battlefield before dropping the combo. If they're patient enough to leave my other lands alone, then eventually I have to either have a back-up for my Dark Depths (e.g. let them waste it; then play a second one, or recur the first one via Grim Discovery, or tutor one up via Expedition Map), or play a Wasteland of my own targeting theirs (and they get to take out one of my other non-basics for free)... before I can play Dark Depths for the combo. It's certainly not ideal, but I can deal with it. Basically, I've got so much redundancy in my deck that they'll have to deal with Dark Depths / Marit Lage over and over again; a one-shot answer isn't enough.
I've used it and Hex Parasite (preferably the latter, since it gets pumped rather than sacced) to take out planeswalkers during testing. They can also take counters off of Chalice of the Void (making it X=0), but they have to find their way onto the battlefield first (e.g. usually have to get there before Chalice does). Ditto for Smokestack, Joraga Warcaller, anything with the "level up" mechanic, etc.
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
I've thought about splashing green, but more for Crop Rotation. For various reasons (not the least of which is the crucial need to generate BB in this deck), I'd prefer to keep it mono-B (with the exception of Mental Misstep and a single dual land). If I run into match-ups where I'm a heavy dog and another colour would allow this deck to be competive, then I'll consider more colours (e.g. Junk featuring KotR), but then the tendency is to build around a different archetype (e.g. Junk control) with Dark Depths as a secondary "oops: 20/20" wincon.
(also, my budget would be stretched if I needed several revised dual lands, a playset of Tarmogoyfs, etc)
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
4x Dark Depths
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
3x Snow-covered Swamp
1x Underground Sea
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Wasteland
Instants (10)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mental Misstep
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Grim Discovery
4x Hymn to Tourach
Artifacts (9)
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Expedition Map
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures (7)
3x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Despise
3x Go for the Throat
2x Hex Parasite
1x Homeward Path
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rite of Consumption
4x Dark Depths
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
3x Snow-covered Swamp
1x Underground Sea
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Wasteland
Instant (7)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Go for the Throat
3x Despise
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Grim Discovery
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Rite of Consumption
Artifact (9)
4x Expedition Map
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pithing Needle
Creature (9)
2x Hex Parasite
3x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
2x Bojuka Bog
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Homeward Path
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Mental Misstep
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
- optionally omit 2x Pithing Needle vs creature-heavy decks without activated abilities (or planeswalkers), and instead leave in 2x Engineered Explosives; it's especially useful vs token decks and zoo.
When side-boarded in, Rite of Consumption has some interesting synergy with other cards in the deck. Besides throwing Marit Lage at my opponent's face for 20 damage, it can be used to fling a pumped up Hex Parasite (perhaps after taking out a troublesome planeswalker) for some quick damage + life gain. It can also be used to remove Bob before he kills me. One recurring series of events involves attacking with Bob when my life is low (which my opponent opts not to block, aware of my desire to dump Bob), then casting Rite of Consumption during my second main phase. The net result is a 6 life swing.
I've found that Polluted Delta + some utility lands >> Scrying Sheets + lots of Snow-covered Swamps. Fetches work great with Sensei's Divining Top when searching for a (sometimes elusive) Vampire Hexmage. Often when a game lasts past turn 4-5, it goes:
It's not uncommon to look at 8-12 cards in a turn!
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
If I am to try to keep this deck alive, I have no reason to splash U anymore. Do I splash G instead to give me Crop Rotation and Living Wish? Or do I more sincerely splash U for Mana Leak or Negate (or even change the deck to CounterTop with Hex/Depths as a wincon)?
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
countertop could work, but then you might as well port the old extended counter-top/hex depths/thopter sword deck and have one mean control deck.
As far as just splashing blue for counters goes, and you're worried about instants, I would think that dispel or spell pierce would be more useful?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
3x Dark Depths
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
4x Counterbalance
Sorceries (14)
3x Grim Discovery
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Living Wish
2x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
Instants (11)
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Spell Pierce
Creatures (7)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Vampire Hexmage
4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Go for the Throat
2x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dark Depths
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Wasteland
Since this deck is more of a mid-range control/combo deck, would Mana Leak be more effective than Daze (despite not being a "free" spell)?
Also, the abundance of "3-ofs" is due to me not really knowing which cards are best in this deck at this point - e.g. Brainstorm vs Ponder; Daze (or Mana Leak) vs Spell Pierce; Grim Discovery (it was a champ in the old version); Hymn to Tourach (I'd like my opponent cardless while I counter anything they top-deck). I'll adjust these to "4-ofs" and "2-ofs" (or cut altogether) after some testing.
(I miss Dark Ritual already :crying:)
P.S. How long until Wizards unbans Mental Misstep? I liked the old "mono-black" version (see post #12) of my deck a lot better.
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
Enchantments (8)
4x Counterbalance
4x Phyrexian Arena
Artifacts (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Instants (10)
4x Brainstorm
3x Spell Pierce
3x Mana Leak
3x Thoughtseize
3x Grim Discovery
4x Hymn to Tourach
Lands (20)
4x Dark Depths
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x Swamp
2x Island
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Wasteland
I added Phyrexian Arena for even more drawing power, and to give me 3-drop counters via Counterbalance. It has been working surprisingly well, and so far I've been able to avoid paying 3 life via Dark Confidant.
I'm thinking of adding Lim-Dul's Vault to help me find the combo pieces. It's like a Vampiric Tutor combined with a 5-deep (total) top-deck fix for UB, and it's instant-speed. The problem is I'm not sure what to cut for it.
Can I get away with cutting 1x Couterbalance and/or a Sensei's Divining Top? They're often dead draws after the first is in play - but that requires me to find them and get them to stick. I might be able to cut 1x Dark Confidant and/or Phyrexian Arena, since I don't need quite that much total drawing power (I'm often discarding down to 7, tossing away extra Urborgs, Counterbalances, and Divining Tops).
I can also use more mana fixing, and thought that Sunken Ruins will especially help with generating either UU (Counterbalance) or BB (Vampire Hexmage, Hymn to Tourach, Phyrexian Arena). With the added "tutor", I think I can get away with 3x each of the legendary lands. Here's the list I might try:
3x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
Enchantments (7)
4x Counterbalance
3x Phyrexian Arena
Artifacts (4)
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Instants (14)
4x Brainstorm
4x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Pierce
Sorceries (9)
3x Grim Discovery
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
3x Dark Depths
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
2x Sunken Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Wasteland
2x Bojuka Bog
2x Pithing Needle
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Go for the Throat
2x Rite of Consumption
3x ???
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
In the end, I found myself wishing it was just a Counterspell. Since then, it's evolved towards a UB Draw-Go style of deck. I'm not running FoW because (a) I don't have any and (b) I have a lot of non-blue cards in here, so I'm playing 2-cmc counterspells. Here's my current list:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage
Artifacts (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Instants (18)
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
2x Doom Blade
2x Go for the Throat
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Spell Pierce
Sorceries (10)
3x Grim Discovery
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Depths
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
3x Sunken Ruins
2x Wasteland
3x Countersquall
2x Doom blade
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Go for the Throat
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rite of Consumption
I'm now playing 4x creature removal main (can side in Countersqualls against creatureless decks), since there are a lot of creature-heavy decks in my meta. There are 4x more creature removal in the sideboard to swap with Spell Pierce vs particularly aggro creatures with few other spells.
The Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Rite of Consumption, and Ghost Quarter come in handy against a couple of prison decks I often play against (FNM); if you're wondering, one player's only win condition is Psychic Venom (x4) + Rishadan Port in a creatureless deck (he also runs The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale), with several Maze of Iths to keep my Marit Lage at bay. Winning usually involves Wasteland followed by Grim Discovery, repeat, repeat. It would be nice to Ghost Quarter my own land (the one enchanted by 2+ Psychic Venoms) so I can at least replace it with a basic while removing his wincon (and get a shuffle effect out of it).
I'm really liking Sunken Ruins in this deck. A typical game starts:
t1: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Thoughtseize
t2: Sunken Ruins, "go"
and I've got BB, UB, or UU available for Counterspell, Countersquall, or Go for the Throat. Or sometimes I'll play Hymn to Tourach on my turn. Or if my opponent doesn't play anything worth countering and doesn't have anything in hand to stop me, I'll cast Lim-Dul's Vault at the end of his/her turn to get the combo piece(s) I need, and put a 20/20 in play on my turn.
The more I test this deck, the more I wonder why Lim-Dul's Vault isn't played more. It seems like the perfect card for UB control/combo. Or is it because nobody plays UB control/combo? I'll quote myself and say "It's like a Vampiric Tutor combined with a 5-deep (total) top-deck fix for UB, and it's instant-speed." What more can you ask for? And somehow it hasn't been banned (perhaps because it costs 2 rather than 1).
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)