What are they?
-They are a tribe from the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block that are primarily that blocks "White Weenie" Aggro deck. You can also think of them as Hobbits, really.
Why do I play them?
-Back when the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor/Shards block was Standard, they were one of the top competitive decks to play in the format (Next to Fae, B/W Tokens, and Cruel Control) and are capable of wins on turn 4-5. The damage output is enough to keep up with Zoo, and it puts an incredibly fast clock on 12-Post.
Ok, so what do I play?
-The list is primarily strait forward, play as many Kithkins as possible, while playing the pump effects (Honor of the Pure, Glorious Anthem) to make them survive Punishing Fire/Bolt/Volcanic Fallout and be able to beat some face.
Figure of Destiny: There's a reason this card is still worth more than $1 today. Zoo lists have run it in the past, RDW runs it even now. It effectively becomes an 8/8 Flying First Strike late game, if it goes that far. Goldmeadow Stalwart: The standard-issue soldier of the deck. He's the same idea as Silvergill Adept, except he costs one less and has a bigger backside. Burreton Forgetender: This card is going to be the NUTS against ANY Red Deck (Mainly Jund and Zoo - worst matchups for us) If you know you're going to be playing them a lot, run this MB instead of Stalwarts. Path to Exile: This card is just, awesome. It lets you win wars of attrition, Laughs @ Wormcoil Engine, and it can even fetch YOU land if you so badly need it. Aether Vial: With this card in the format, it'd almost be dumb to not run this. Vial in a Meadowgrain EoT, play a Wizened Cenn AND have mana to pump a Figure? Seems good. Brave the Elements: Particularly a Side board card, but this card can sometimes just be a wincon in it's own. It can also save your skin by blocking a Tarmogoyf and just, Alpha striking and winning the following turn.
Knight of Meadowgrain: She's one of the few cards in Kithkins you can run legitimately outside of this deck. She's a Knight with Lifelink, and just gets better with pump effects. Wizened Cenn: Honor of the Pure, for Kithkins only. She is the equivilant of Merfolk's Lord of Atlantis without Islandwalk :S Honor of the Pure: Pump Effect for cheap. Makes your dudes larger and more scary the more of these that hit the board and survive.
Spectral Procession: For 3 mana, you get 3 1/1's with Evasion. this card is just, awesome. Glorious Anthem: Another pump effect, was the key card in this deck before Honor of the Pure came out. Run this as backup to Honor, maybe 2-3 copies Oblivion Ring: I've seen some lists run this SB, it's good tech versus Planeswalkers and Wormcoil if you don't got Path in Hand atm.
Elspeth, Knight Errant: She is a key staple in MANY white decks. She makes defenders, she makes guys stronger for damage wars, and eventually if the game stalls out long enough your dudes dont die EVER. Maybe 2-3 Ajani Goldmane: Used to be run before Elspeth was printed, but some people think he's still superior to her due to the permanent pump effect and Vigilance. I'd run him instead of Elspeth if you see a lot of Burn or Direct Damage effects, as Lifegain is really good. Thistledown Liege: Again, another Pump Lord. He has Flash, so he has fun with the Combat Step and whatnot. He survives a bolt with an Honor effect on the field, so it's good. Mirror Entity: I've seen this guy in a lot of lists too. Normally the white mana is used to make Figure bigger, but having a field full of 4/4's or 5/5's from pumps and paying for Mirror just ends games. I'd run him as a 2-3 Mirrorweave: COMPLETELY forgot this card existed. It's a one time Rite of Replication basically. If you do this on a Wizened Cenn with more than 4 dudes out, you can pretty much win right on the spot. Ranger of Eos: Finds more Fuel, lets you maintain constant threats, and is a nice body itself. I'd say it's a 2-of if you run it
Cloudgoat Ranger: This dude. He does stuff. He makes 3 1/1's to chump with, or to make him a 4 turn clock for the opponent. Elspeth Tirel: This card has potential with all the tokens you make. I've been trying her MB, but thinking of taking her out as well.
Plains - you're playing WHITE Weenie, Right? Sacred Foundry, Hallowed Fountain, Temple Garden, Godless Shrine: The Dual Lands. Use these if you have Tech you wanna throw into the SB that's NOT white (Blood Moon, K-Grip, Remand/Spell Pierce, Doom Blade/Go for the Throat) Windbrisk Heights: This land used to be VERY popular to this archetype. It is still valuable in this deck, as a free Cloudgoat Ranger or Free Anthem effect can sometimes win you games. Mutavault: This card is everything! He can act as an extra beater when you need it to, and he certainly is a Merfolk for Islandwalking Lord of Atlantis....
Matchups (arranging from highest threat/priority to lowest)
-Zoo: The deck just has, WAY too many threats, WAY too much removal, and without Mental Misstep to stop the removal when you need it to, it just makes it rough.
~Ideas for SB against Zoo: Kitchen Finks, Burreton Forge-Tender, Ajani Vengant
-Jund: The same idea as Zoo, but it has higher-costing removal versus Zoo. Doom Blades and Terminates versus Paths and Bolt.
~Ideas for SB against Jund: Kitchen Finks, Burreton Forge-Tender, Brave the Elements
-12 Post: This deck just happens to abuse mana ramping, and they player hate on having multiple lands types. Sundering Titan doesn't do much against you, but it can hurt sometimes. Wormcoil is the biggest threat here.
~Ideas for SB against 12 Post: Ajani Vengant, Tectonic Edge (SB Lands sounds dumb, but shutting them off from 3-4 mana with 1 card is really nice), Boom/Bust even.
+Of the major matchups/archetypes that I know exist, those seem the most relevant. I will post more the more I playtest it with.+
-Possibly more to come, will need playtesting yet again-
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
A quick Gatherer search turned up some options you missed:
Militia's Pride
Ballyrush Banneret
Surge of Thoughtweft
Kithkin Harbinger
Crib Swap (but its only advantage over Unmake is that it's tutorable)
And if you're playing tribal there is Preeminent Captain and Kinsbaile Cavalier.
This is what used to be played as WW Aggro back in it's Standard/Extended block. Militia's Pride, Ballyrush, Surge, Harbinger and Swap are way too slow. The deck has to compete with Jund/Zoo on damage levels, and having to wait a turn to make a dude with Pride is dumb, Worldly tutor give you the answer a turn late, and you have SB options in the form of Bolt/Helix/Doom Blade/Go For the Throat for more removal depending on what duals you go with.
EDIT: Also on Aether Vial - idk, I haven't tried in testing. The deck seems like it would want it, so it can save mana to level up - but it also has a tendancy to be a dead draw too....
The deck has to compete with Jund/Zoo on damage levels
You can't beat a 2/3 Ape, Lion or 3/3 Nacatl straight up. Goldmeadow Stalwart, Knight of Meadowgrain, Wizened Cenn are mere 2/2s, and the latter two are 2-drops.
The only way you're going to beat Zoo's creatures is by using Student of Warfare or Porcelain Legionnaire, but Zoo has a full set of Bolts/Helixes to kill them.
Wall of Omens/Spellskite beats Zoo but they can't attack, and you lose to 12post's Eldrazi.
Thanks for this primer! I hope you can finish it soon, as this is one deck I am definitely interested in trying again. I played it briefly in Standard and remember one ideal play sequence as:
T1: Goldmeadow Stalwart
T2: Wizened Cenn (Attack for 3, opp: 17)
T3: Spectral Procession (Attack for 5: opp at 12)
T4: Mirrorweave on Cenn (Attack for 30 [18 of which is flying]: opp at "gg")
And really Mirrorweave + Procession is just strong in general, not to mention all the neat tricks that Mirrorweave was capable of on its own. I mention it because I saw that Mirrorweave wasn't on your list.
And don't forget Mutavault, either. Most people might think of it as a Merfolk nowadays, but its a Kithkin, too! Although the need for white mana is so strong in this deck that a full playset isn't necessarily desirable.
derp! I forgot to add Mutavault to the land list, thanks for the reminder. I guess Mirrorweave is the same deal as Mirror Entity without having to activate mana, which sounds strictly better. I never actually got to PLAY the deck while it was in standard, but it was a dream of mine to be able to afford and play it SOMEDAY. Today seems like it will be the day...
Also - Kird Ape is strictly worse than Figure or Grim Lavamancer - why run it?
It's a damage race against Zoo. You're not trying to eat Goyfs. You're racing them by playing pump effects and more creatures than they can shoot, in the form of Spectral Procession and Cloudgoat Ranger.
I guess Mirrorweave is the same deal as Mirror Entity without having to activate mana, which sounds strictly better. I never actually got to PLAY the deck while it was in standard, but it was a dream of mine to be able to afford and play it SOMEDAY.
I wouldn't say that Mirrorweave is strictly better, but it is definitely trickier.
Mirror Entity pros:
+ Has a scalable, repeatable effect
+ Is a pretty good top deck late game
+ Works well alone or with a group of creatures
cons:
- Is a really weak creature in its "natural" state
- Costs 5 mana before it does anything useful
- Costs much more than 5 mana to have a big effect
- Rarely wins the turn it is cast, except in late game
- Opponent can see it coming
Mirrorweave pros:
+ Is an instant
+ Can target opponents' creatures
+ Can win the game on the spot, as early as turn 4
+ Is super tricky
cons:
- Terrible after a board wipe
- You can get 2 for 1'd
- Costs four mana
I think I'll list some tech-y Mirrorweave interactions here, as they aren't all immediately obvious.
But first, an obvious one. Since MW is an instant, you can cast it after blockers are declared. This is important since your Spectral Procession tokens fly. Even though they may lose flying after you 'weave, by then it is too late for them to be blocked by ground troups.
Another obvious use is that MW can target your opponents' creatures. He's got a Tarmgoyf? ALL your creatures are Tarmogoyfs!
A less obvious use is MW's interesting interaction with Mutavault and other manlands. Targeting an activated manland turns each creature into the UNactivated version of that land. For example, If the opponent is going for an alpha strike against you, you can activate a Mutavault, 'weave it, and all his creatures become harmless lands which are immediately removed from combat.
The above trick also works to protect your guys from board sweepers, but you will lose your activated Mutavault in that case.
An alternative approach to handling an attack is to 'weave a token or other small creature. This allows you to trade any of your weakest creatures for any of the attacker's best creatures since they are all 1/1 (or whatever). As a bonus, if you have Honor of the Pure out and 'weave a white creature, your army survives, while his dies.
Against Faeries in particular, 'weaving a Scion of Oona was tech in response to Sower of Temptation, as no creatures could be targetted/stolen.
'Weaving lords (yours OR opponents) is always fun. The P/T boost math can definitely get complicated in these cases, so think carefully before acting. For example, let's say you only have a pair of 1/1's on the board. You can Flash in Thistledown Liege end of opponent's turn, then 'weave it on your turn for an attack of 15. That kind of damage output from just 3 little dudes isn't immediately obviously.
Also - Kird Ape is strictly worse than Figure or Grim Lavamancer - why run it?
It's a damage race against Zoo. You're not trying to eat Goyfs. You're racing them by playing pump effects and more creatures than they can shoot, in the form of Spectral Procession and Cloudgoat Ranger.
Kird Ape is a staple of Zoo because it's a 2/3 for 1 mana. It's not strictly worse than either of those cards - Figure needs mana to be any use, and Lavamancer needs mana & cards (which you may not have if you didn't draw any fetches).
You won't be able to race Zoo when your 2/2s are unable to get past its 2/3s. The Zoo player can just sit there stalling you all day until they draw a Knight/Goyf.
Most Zoo players won't play their creatures as walls though, when they know you won't block their 2/3's so they can get in for damage. More often than not they like being horizontal with their creatures than to save them for blocking early game.
Also! Progress Notes: I've been testing Kithkins with Aether Vial - it really does do wonders for the deck. Should be a staple 4 of. Also, here's the current list I am running
Do you think there's any chance Harm's Way could be good enough for this deck, maybe in the side? Serves as removal and protection, and seems to be best in aggro heavy environments.
Goldmeadow Harrier - This is a control-oriented card that takes quite a bit of mana to use turn after turn. It doesn't work too well in a fast aggro deck with a low curve. We also have better removal in the form of Path to Exile.
Ballyrush Banneret - So many of our best Kithkin don't even have colorless mana in their costs that this ability is rarely useful. Probably more useful in a Soldier deck.
Preeminent Captain - Not bad. AEther Vial could be better, but the Captain might deserve some testing, too.
Limiting your deck to kithkins is even more limiting than limiting to white creatures. I would always splash black for confidant or green for pridemage/knight/goyf. Kithkin as a tribe isn't deep enough to be effective and limiting yourself to the tribe will mean your deck won't be competitive. I really don't see how kithkin can beat zoo or jund or twelvepost as it lacks disruption, large creatures and card advantage. I would try a list like this:
I realized my mistake when looked at it again. I was concerned for hate agaisnt Affinity and my buddy's "Metalworker" list I threw it in there without throwing in Filters or Fetches/Duals. My list might change to accommodate it, or I may just take them out for other mass artifact hate (I like Fracturing Gust but, it kills my pump effects...)
Also - Captia - the reason you don't have any draw power is because you're not running Ranger of Eos - he is the NUTS with Aether Vial @ 1. Plus he almost always has targets to grab.
After running Kithkins in old Standard I have to say that Mirrorweave is by far better and allows for turn 4 kills. I would love to get a testing partner on MWS or Cockatrice if you want a tester.
But onto some thoughts. Ajani Goldmane is much better in this deck than Elspeth. I do love some Elspeth but the -1 on Ajani can win games if they can't deal with it. Try a 1-1 Split first and see what you think.
Though I haven't looked much into this format and just relying on old Standard I played Thistledown Liege and it was nuts as an EOT lord which would either make them use a counterspell so you could set up an attack for the win or something similar.
But with that splashing into blue for little Jace or isn't horrible to think of as it can give you gas to keep playing spells. But in the end Kithkins really need an engine to run on if Plan A fails.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is a little better against control but not as trickier.
Oversoul of Dusk is also a real card and can beat Jund pretty easily if you get her to stick.
In the end I hope Kithkins can be in the running for a decent deck. Though I think they will never pass tier 2. PM if you want to test.
So i have to post here, as i love this deck. I'm against some ideas that are in this topic thou...
Zoo: Before even modern was announced and i was having this crazy idea of playing kithkins on legacy, and i tested it on cockatrice and on real life with the EXACT decklist that i used in standard (rustic clachan, windbrisk, 20 kithkins, path, honor, spectral and brave the elements, sb: burrenton, relic of prog, silence, pithing needle, and disenchant effects). And i have to say this talk of zoo being a bad matchup is a bit... i never lost a set to zoo, and in legacy they have some pretty strong spells like chain lightning and grim lavamencer. We can get our guys out of burn range (rustic clachan is a bit janky, but it works on a pinch) figure of destiny gets 4/4 on third turn, path to exile gets the fatties, brave the elements helps getting our guys alive. The token part of this deck shines at the point of out-aggro the biggest aggro deck because they dont run any sweepers. Yeah nacatl gets the 3/6 damage, we can´t stop it. But after that, really our guys are in whole, just bigger. Meadowgrains first strike is awesome here in beating nacatl. The key is hitting a lord effect, or getting a clachan on it, and don´t get burn baited, making you drop targets for them to burn. We run so many lands that is difficult to miss a land drop, so you can play a honor/cenn and a guy in a pinch, making them to waste 2 burn spells on something.
Game 2 it gets even better, all of their big guys are graveyard dependant, one active relic removing a card per turn, gets tarmos small, and knight of the reliquary smaller. Burrenton immune to burn, etc.
I have really really big problems - with combo. Im using mana tithe and silence on sb to gain a few turns, to try to deliver the final damage.
Kithkins are not disruptive, are not controlish, they are just a packed tribal, a tribal that has most efficient beaters with some synergy, making space for useful spells helping on the worse matchups.
OH aether vial: aether vial is better used on decks with a lot of expensive lords like legacy merfolk. Do you win games by vialing wizened cenn in the middle of combat, especially ? Doubt at that time you haven´t casted cenn by that time. Countermagic is not that powerfull in modern, so why taking space in the deck, a slot that is filled IMO by a better card in this deck - brave the elements.
Mirrorweave, really? And i think rustic clachan is janky..
Equipments is a idea i think it would work in kithkin, too. And then, vial would have its place.
Ill be hanging around the topic for discussion, cheers!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: RBW Mardu Pyro X Eldrazi
Pauper: X Affinity G Stompy
Well, I admit there are times where I have Aether Vial and was wishing it was another threat. But, much of the time it lets me drop 2-3 creatures a turn rather than 1-2, or even a creature and a pump spell. That's the part I like.
Mirrorweave used to be the decks wincon back when Shards came out for Standard. It's an awesome card, especially against decks like 12-Post where all they do is just drop Fatty Boom Booms and go horizontal. Nice Wurmcoil bro, I have 5. Problem?
Yeah, I'm thinking of taking out Vials and putting in Forgetenders to see how it works. Seems like it would just laugh @ Zoo's face, because 99% of Zoo's removal is in Red (Bolt, Grim, Punishing, Helix, etc.)
Well, I admit there are times where I have Aether Vial and was wishing it was another threat. But, much of the time it lets me drop 2-3 creatures a turn rather than 1-2, or even a creature and a pump spell. That's the part I like.
Yeah i hear ya, but if you ask me, i want more consistency cards like brave the elements MD. We already have a good clock to the opponent, and rushing it, i don´t think its the way.
Mirrorweave used to be the decks wincon back when Shards came out for Standard. It's an awesome card, especially against decks like 12-Post where all they do is just drop Fatty Boom Booms and go horizontal. Nice Wurmcoil bro, I have 5. Problem?
Im going to do this: Goldmeadow Harrier > Mirrorweave.
1- mono blue 12 post are rampant, bazilion counterspells to counter your 4 ccost conditional win condition. With no mental misstep, a 1 casting cost dude that keeps the beasts tapped while you attack, while evading most of countermagic is gold in this format. Not mentioning it stops emrakul.
2- Its a kithkin!
Yeah, I'm thinking of taking out Vials and putting in Forgetenders to see how it works. Seems like it would just laugh @ Zoo's face, because 99% of Zoo's removal is in Red (Bolt, Grim, Punishing, Helix, etc.)
Aether vial is mostly played to drop lords, while evading countermagic. We dont have enough creature lords to justify this, and countermagic is partialy relevant in this format. In a battlefield with no equipments, kithkins should be the better tribal. Equipments = disenchants and pithing needle. Get brave the elements because all their threats on creatures are green, and burn - all red. Burrenton is just the icing on the cake!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: RBW Mardu Pyro X Eldrazi
Pauper: X Affinity G Stompy
I'm a bit excited that Kithkins are playable again. I played it too when it was in standard. I do have a question, is Path to Exile our only means of creature removal? I know we have Crib Swap and Unmake but both are 3cc.
What are they?
-They are a tribe from the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block that are primarily that blocks "White Weenie" Aggro deck. You can also think of them as Hobbits, really.
Why do I play them?
-Back when the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor/Shards block was Standard, they were one of the top competitive decks to play in the format (Next to Fae, B/W Tokens, and Cruel Control) and are capable of wins on turn 4-5. The damage output is enough to keep up with Zoo, and it puts an incredibly fast clock on 12-Post.
Ok, so what do I play?
-The list is primarily strait forward, play as many Kithkins as possible, while playing the pump effects (Honor of the Pure, Glorious Anthem) to make them survive Punishing Fire/Bolt/Volcanic Fallout and be able to beat some face.
Figure of Destiny: There's a reason this card is still worth more than $1 today. Zoo lists have run it in the past, RDW runs it even now. It effectively becomes an 8/8 Flying First Strike late game, if it goes that far.
Goldmeadow Stalwart: The standard-issue soldier of the deck. He's the same idea as Silvergill Adept, except he costs one less and has a bigger backside.
Burreton Forgetender: This card is going to be the NUTS against ANY Red Deck (Mainly Jund and Zoo - worst matchups for us) If you know you're going to be playing them a lot, run this MB instead of Stalwarts.
Path to Exile: This card is just, awesome. It lets you win wars of attrition, Laughs @ Wormcoil Engine, and it can even fetch YOU land if you so badly need it.
Aether Vial: With this card in the format, it'd almost be dumb to not run this. Vial in a Meadowgrain EoT, play a Wizened Cenn AND have mana to pump a Figure? Seems good.
Brave the Elements: Particularly a Side board card, but this card can sometimes just be a wincon in it's own. It can also save your skin by blocking a Tarmogoyf and just, Alpha striking and winning the following turn.
Knight of Meadowgrain: She's one of the few cards in Kithkins you can run legitimately outside of this deck. She's a Knight with Lifelink, and just gets better with pump effects.
Wizened Cenn: Honor of the Pure, for Kithkins only. She is the equivilant of Merfolk's Lord of Atlantis without Islandwalk :S
Honor of the Pure: Pump Effect for cheap. Makes your dudes larger and more scary the more of these that hit the board and survive.
Spectral Procession: For 3 mana, you get 3 1/1's with Evasion. this card is just, awesome.
Glorious Anthem: Another pump effect, was the key card in this deck before Honor of the Pure came out. Run this as backup to Honor, maybe 2-3 copies
Oblivion Ring: I've seen some lists run this SB, it's good tech versus Planeswalkers and Wormcoil if you don't got Path in Hand atm.
Elspeth, Knight Errant: She is a key staple in MANY white decks. She makes defenders, she makes guys stronger for damage wars, and eventually if the game stalls out long enough your dudes dont die EVER. Maybe 2-3
Ajani Goldmane: Used to be run before Elspeth was printed, but some people think he's still superior to her due to the permanent pump effect and Vigilance. I'd run him instead of Elspeth if you see a lot of Burn or Direct Damage effects, as Lifegain is really good.
Thistledown Liege: Again, another Pump Lord. He has Flash, so he has fun with the Combat Step and whatnot. He survives a bolt with an Honor effect on the field, so it's good.
Mirror Entity: I've seen this guy in a lot of lists too. Normally the white mana is used to make Figure bigger, but having a field full of 4/4's or 5/5's from pumps and paying for Mirror just ends games. I'd run him as a 2-3
Mirrorweave: COMPLETELY forgot this card existed. It's a one time Rite of Replication basically. If you do this on a Wizened Cenn with more than 4 dudes out, you can pretty much win right on the spot.
Ranger of Eos: Finds more Fuel, lets you maintain constant threats, and is a nice body itself. I'd say it's a 2-of if you run it
Cloudgoat Ranger: This dude. He does stuff. He makes 3 1/1's to chump with, or to make him a 4 turn clock for the opponent.
Elspeth Tirel: This card has potential with all the tokens you make. I've been trying her MB, but thinking of taking her out as well.
Plains - you're playing WHITE Weenie, Right?
Sacred Foundry, Hallowed Fountain, Temple Garden, Godless Shrine: The Dual Lands. Use these if you have Tech you wanna throw into the SB that's NOT white (Blood Moon, K-Grip, Remand/Spell Pierce, Doom Blade/Go for the Throat)
Windbrisk Heights: This land used to be VERY popular to this archetype. It is still valuable in this deck, as a free Cloudgoat Ranger or Free Anthem effect can sometimes win you games.
Mutavault: This card is everything! He can act as an extra beater when you need it to, and he certainly is a Merfolk for Islandwalking Lord of Atlantis....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LcGC-46cDQ - Pro Tour: Kyoto Deck Tech with Charles Gindy (2009)
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/52973/post_m10_standard_t2.html - Second Place WW Kithkin list (2009)
Matchups (arranging from highest threat/priority to lowest)
-Zoo: The deck just has, WAY too many threats, WAY too much removal, and without Mental Misstep to stop the removal when you need it to, it just makes it rough.
~Ideas for SB against Zoo: Kitchen Finks, Burreton Forge-Tender, Ajani Vengant
-Jund: The same idea as Zoo, but it has higher-costing removal versus Zoo. Doom Blades and Terminates versus Paths and Bolt.
~Ideas for SB against Jund: Kitchen Finks, Burreton Forge-Tender, Brave the Elements
-12 Post: This deck just happens to abuse mana ramping, and they player hate on having multiple lands types. Sundering Titan doesn't do much against you, but it can hurt sometimes. Wormcoil is the biggest threat here.
~Ideas for SB against 12 Post: Ajani Vengant, Tectonic Edge (SB Lands sounds dumb, but shutting them off from 3-4 mana with 1 card is really nice), Boom/Bust even.
+Of the major matchups/archetypes that I know exist, those seem the most relevant. I will post more the more I playtest it with.+
-Possibly more to come, will need playtesting yet again-
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Militia's Pride
Ballyrush Banneret
Surge of Thoughtweft
Kithkin Harbinger
Crib Swap (but its only advantage over Unmake is that it's tutorable)
And if you're playing tribal there is Preeminent Captain and Kinsbaile Cavalier.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
This is what used to be played as WW Aggro back in it's Standard/Extended block. Militia's Pride, Ballyrush, Surge, Harbinger and Swap are way too slow. The deck has to compete with Jund/Zoo on damage levels, and having to wait a turn to make a dude with Pride is dumb, Worldly tutor give you the answer a turn late, and you have SB options in the form of Bolt/Helix/Doom Blade/Go For the Throat for more removal depending on what duals you go with.
EDIT: Also on Aether Vial - idk, I haven't tried in testing. The deck seems like it would want it, so it can save mana to level up - but it also has a tendancy to be a dead draw too....
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
You can't beat a 2/3 Ape, Lion or 3/3 Nacatl straight up. Goldmeadow Stalwart, Knight of Meadowgrain, Wizened Cenn are mere 2/2s, and the latter two are 2-drops.
The only way you're going to beat Zoo's creatures is by using Student of Warfare or Porcelain Legionnaire, but Zoo has a full set of Bolts/Helixes to kill them.
Wall of Omens/Spellskite beats Zoo but they can't attack, and you lose to 12post's Eldrazi.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
T1: Goldmeadow Stalwart
T2: Wizened Cenn (Attack for 3, opp: 17)
T3: Spectral Procession (Attack for 5: opp at 12)
T4: Mirrorweave on Cenn (Attack for 30 [18 of which is flying]: opp at "gg")
And really Mirrorweave + Procession is just strong in general, not to mention all the neat tricks that Mirrorweave was capable of on its own. I mention it because I saw that Mirrorweave wasn't on your list.
And don't forget Mutavault, either. Most people might think of it as a Merfolk nowadays, but its a Kithkin, too! Although the need for white mana is so strong in this deck that a full playset isn't necessarily desirable.
Looking forward to the rest of this primer.
Also - Kird Ape is strictly worse than Figure or Grim Lavamancer - why run it?
It's a damage race against Zoo. You're not trying to eat Goyfs. You're racing them by playing pump effects and more creatures than they can shoot, in the form of Spectral Procession and Cloudgoat Ranger.
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I wouldn't say that Mirrorweave is strictly better, but it is definitely trickier.
Mirror Entity pros:
+ Has a scalable, repeatable effect
+ Is a pretty good top deck late game
+ Works well alone or with a group of creatures
cons:
- Is a really weak creature in its "natural" state
- Costs 5 mana before it does anything useful
- Costs much more than 5 mana to have a big effect
- Rarely wins the turn it is cast, except in late game
- Opponent can see it coming
Mirrorweave pros:
+ Is an instant
+ Can target opponents' creatures
+ Can win the game on the spot, as early as turn 4
+ Is super tricky
cons:
- Terrible after a board wipe
- You can get 2 for 1'd
- Costs four mana
I think I'll list some tech-y Mirrorweave interactions here, as they aren't all immediately obvious.
But first, an obvious one. Since MW is an instant, you can cast it after blockers are declared. This is important since your Spectral Procession tokens fly. Even though they may lose flying after you 'weave, by then it is too late for them to be blocked by ground troups.
Another obvious use is that MW can target your opponents' creatures. He's got a Tarmgoyf? ALL your creatures are Tarmogoyfs!
A less obvious use is MW's interesting interaction with Mutavault and other manlands. Targeting an activated manland turns each creature into the UNactivated version of that land. For example, If the opponent is going for an alpha strike against you, you can activate a Mutavault, 'weave it, and all his creatures become harmless lands which are immediately removed from combat.
The above trick also works to protect your guys from board sweepers, but you will lose your activated Mutavault in that case.
An alternative approach to handling an attack is to 'weave a token or other small creature. This allows you to trade any of your weakest creatures for any of the attacker's best creatures since they are all 1/1 (or whatever). As a bonus, if you have Honor of the Pure out and 'weave a white creature, your army survives, while his dies.
Against Faeries in particular, 'weaving a Scion of Oona was tech in response to Sower of Temptation, as no creatures could be targetted/stolen.
'Weaving lords (yours OR opponents) is always fun. The P/T boost math can definitely get complicated in these cases, so think carefully before acting. For example, let's say you only have a pair of 1/1's on the board. You can Flash in Thistledown Liege end of opponent's turn, then 'weave it on your turn for an attack of 15. That kind of damage output from just 3 little dudes isn't immediately obviously.
Kird Ape is a staple of Zoo because it's a 2/3 for 1 mana. It's not strictly worse than either of those cards - Figure needs mana to be any use, and Lavamancer needs mana & cards (which you may not have if you didn't draw any fetches).
You won't be able to race Zoo when your 2/2s are unable to get past its 2/3s. The Zoo player can just sit there stalling you all day until they draw a Knight/Goyf.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Also! Progress Notes: I've been testing Kithkins with Aether Vial - it really does do wonders for the deck. Should be a staple 4 of. Also, here's the current list I am running
2 Mutavault
4 Windbrisk Heights
14 Plains
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Ranger of Eos
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Spectral Procession
4 Path to Exile
4 AEther Vial
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Mirrorweave
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Hurkyl's Recall
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Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
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Do you think there's any chance Harm's Way could be good enough for this deck, maybe in the side? Serves as removal and protection, and seems to be best in aggro heavy environments.
Sales Thread
Ballyrush Banneret - So many of our best Kithkin don't even have colorless mana in their costs that this ability is rarely useful. Probably more useful in a Soldier deck.
Preeminent Captain - Not bad. AEther Vial could be better, but the Captain might deserve some testing, too.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Temple Garden
8 Plains
2 Mutavault
4 Goldmeadow Stalwart
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Wizened Cenn
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Aether vial doesn't really seem worth it as the cards don't give much tempo of themselves and the deck has no card draw to refill your hand.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
Also - Captia - the reason you don't have any draw power is because you're not running Ranger of Eos - he is the NUTS with Aether Vial @ 1. Plus he almost always has targets to grab.
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
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Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
But onto some thoughts. Ajani Goldmane is much better in this deck than Elspeth. I do love some Elspeth but the -1 on Ajani can win games if they can't deal with it. Try a 1-1 Split first and see what you think.
Though I haven't looked much into this format and just relying on old Standard I played Thistledown Liege and it was nuts as an EOT lord which would either make them use a counterspell so you could set up an attack for the win or something similar.
But with that splashing into blue for little Jace or isn't horrible to think of as it can give you gas to keep playing spells. But in the end Kithkins really need an engine to run on if Plan A fails.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is a little better against control but not as trickier.
Oversoul of Dusk is also a real card and can beat Jund pretty easily if you get her to stick.
In the end I hope Kithkins can be in the running for a decent deck. Though I think they will never pass tier 2. PM if you want to test.
Thank you so much mchief111 for the amazing art!
BUG is the Jund of EDH!
Modern: Jund, Grixis Delver, Bant Eldrazi, TitanShift
Commander: Brago, Yidris, Mizzix, Marath, Atheros, Daretti
Zoo: Before even modern was announced and i was having this crazy idea of playing kithkins on legacy, and i tested it on cockatrice and on real life with the EXACT decklist that i used in standard (rustic clachan, windbrisk, 20 kithkins, path, honor, spectral and brave the elements, sb: burrenton, relic of prog, silence, pithing needle, and disenchant effects). And i have to say this talk of zoo being a bad matchup is a bit... i never lost a set to zoo, and in legacy they have some pretty strong spells like chain lightning and grim lavamencer. We can get our guys out of burn range (rustic clachan is a bit janky, but it works on a pinch) figure of destiny gets 4/4 on third turn, path to exile gets the fatties, brave the elements helps getting our guys alive. The token part of this deck shines at the point of out-aggro the biggest aggro deck because they dont run any sweepers. Yeah nacatl gets the 3/6 damage, we can´t stop it. But after that, really our guys are in whole, just bigger. Meadowgrains first strike is awesome here in beating nacatl. The key is hitting a lord effect, or getting a clachan on it, and don´t get burn baited, making you drop targets for them to burn. We run so many lands that is difficult to miss a land drop, so you can play a honor/cenn and a guy in a pinch, making them to waste 2 burn spells on something.
Game 2 it gets even better, all of their big guys are graveyard dependant, one active relic removing a card per turn, gets tarmos small, and knight of the reliquary smaller. Burrenton immune to burn, etc.
I have really really big problems - with combo. Im using mana tithe and silence on sb to gain a few turns, to try to deliver the final damage.
Kithkins are not disruptive, are not controlish, they are just a packed tribal, a tribal that has most efficient beaters with some synergy, making space for useful spells helping on the worse matchups.
OH aether vial: aether vial is better used on decks with a lot of expensive lords like legacy merfolk. Do you win games by vialing wizened cenn in the middle of combat, especially ? Doubt at that time you haven´t casted cenn by that time. Countermagic is not that powerfull in modern, so why taking space in the deck, a slot that is filled IMO by a better card in this deck - brave the elements.
Mirrorweave, really? And i think rustic clachan is janky..
Equipments is a idea i think it would work in kithkin, too. And then, vial would have its place.
Ill be hanging around the topic for discussion, cheers!
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
Mirrorweave used to be the decks wincon back when Shards came out for Standard. It's an awesome card, especially against decks like 12-Post where all they do is just drop Fatty Boom Booms and go horizontal. Nice Wurmcoil bro, I have 5. Problem?
Yeah, I'm thinking of taking out Vials and putting in Forgetenders to see how it works. Seems like it would just laugh @ Zoo's face, because 99% of Zoo's removal is in Red (Bolt, Grim, Punishing, Helix, etc.)
Heroes of the Plane
The Price of Legacy
The Price of Legacy 2.0!
Decks:
EDH
Malestrom Wanderer Group Chaotic Hugs
Tasigur, The Golden Fang Valu-Town
Modern
Too many to List...
Legacy
GWBNic-Fit PodGWB
G12-Post (Building)G
Yeah i hear ya, but if you ask me, i want more consistency cards like brave the elements MD. We already have a good clock to the opponent, and rushing it, i don´t think its the way.
Im going to do this: Goldmeadow Harrier > Mirrorweave.
1- mono blue 12 post are rampant, bazilion counterspells to counter your 4 ccost conditional win condition. With no mental misstep, a 1 casting cost dude that keeps the beasts tapped while you attack, while evading most of countermagic is gold in this format. Not mentioning it stops emrakul.
2- Its a kithkin!
Aether vial is mostly played to drop lords, while evading countermagic. We dont have enough creature lords to justify this, and countermagic is partialy relevant in this format. In a battlefield with no equipments, kithkins should be the better tribal. Equipments = disenchants and pithing needle. Get brave the elements because all their threats on creatures are green, and burn - all red. Burrenton is just the icing on the cake!
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X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
Mistmeadow Skulk = Another good card to use against fatties.dec. Believe me, of all tribals, we have the most answers to these decks.
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
Oblivion Ring
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy