I'm a Timmy at heart, and Braids hypnotized me with her blue eyes. I couldn't resist! It wasn't my fault!
This deck is built around flashing Braids into play, and getting to use her ability before anyone else does, then bouncing her out. Some counter magic thrown in to protect my fatties.
The win condition of the deck is to get one really big and splashy fattie into play, and riding him to victory. The best ones are the Eldrazi and (my favorite) Stormtide Leviathan.
The list (each section is organized roughly by CMC):
Random thoughts:
I envisioned this deck having a lot more big blue guys as the anchors/finishers, but the biggest blue guys have enormous drawbacks (I'm looking at you, Polar Kraken and Leviathan ಠ_ಠ). Eldrazis it is, then. A bit less flavorful, but extremely effective.
I originally didn't have any counter magic on the list, but Sonik pointed out to me that I'm going to see a lot of field wipes. He's very right of course. Can't have that! So in they go.
-Blightsteel Colossus - killing someone in one hit seems a bit too jerk-ish.
-Pathrazer of Ulamog - I've already got 4 Eldrazi, I've hit my max level of jerkishness for annihilators already.
-Sundering Titan - this may get a slot, depending on how mean I feel like being. I feel like the deck is already mean enough though, lol.
-Tidespout Tyrant + Palinchron + one of the three mana doubling artifacts = bounce everything on the board.
-Memnarch + Palinchron + one of the three mana doubling artifacts = steal all permanents on the board.
-I'm not a huge fan of combo'ing out to end the game, so those last two are out for now.
I know your list is over 100 but you have WAY too many beaters. This looks like a "first look" kind of list where you're letting the have-nots and has-beens past the bouncers.
OK so here's the cards I think will not pull their weight:
Quicksilver Dragon: Nothing special and you know it
Sphinx of Jwar Isle: Too vanilla.
Goliath Sphinx: Also too vanilla
Platinum Angel: Too defensive
Lorthos: What's the point of cheating him in if you can't afford his ability in your next attack step?
Tidal Kraken: Borrrrrring
Erratic Portal: Replace with Fabricate or Tezzeret the Seeker and just tutor for Crystal Shard
Grozoth: Great, now someone has killed Braids and your hand is stuck with a bunch of 9-drops.
The Unspeakable: Suspect Grozoth got you excited. Borrrring
Deep Sea Kraken: Borrrring
Temporal Adept/Time Elemental: Suspect these abilities are too mana intensive
Gather Specimens: You can't use this to get their freebies. You will have to cast it in response to Braids's triggered ability or else you will allow it to resolve. If you cast it then, your opponent will not likely give you his freebie...
Argentum Armor: Prohibitive equip cost. Braids wont always be there for you.
Disappear: Replace with Mystical Tutor and just get Capsize.
Wonder: Win more
Sun Quan/Deepchannel Mentor: Win more
Akroma's Memorial: Win more, though this one is different because haste is amazing...
Launch: Noticing a theme here. I would just play or copy bombs that have evasion. It's almost like you're trying to get Kresh through for damage
Psychic Battle: This is not worth your time. Your worst enemy is going to be Wrath of God, not spot removal. Play some counterspells. This is one of the few decks that can get away with more expensive ones like Desertion and Draining Whelk because you don't really need your main phase mana that badly. Oh, and Timesifter is better at this (though people really hate to play against it).
Dream Halls: He who draws the most wins. I'm not sure you are configured for winning in that situation right now...
Propaganda: With bombs doing the swinging and you freeing up all their mana, is a piece of cake for them
Dissipation Field: Like some of your other bounce, you will actually be helping them in many cases. Would I like to attack you with my Sphinx of Uthuun, bounce it and replay it? YES PLZ
Crawlspace: Pretty sure a token army is going to be the least of your concerns lol
Flood: Too narrow I think but YMMV
Planar Portal: Man that activation cost is so expensive. YMMV again
Time Stretch: Why not just go with Rite of Replication? If you're not willing to play Blightsteel but you're willing to play Time Stretch, I don't think that's much of a statement either way.
Aven Fateshaper: Stretching it here. If you have to pay that much mana, you ought to get to keep the cards...
(you forgot Caged Sun)
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With what's left, to me it seems like you are trying to do waaaaay too many things at once. You want to play bombs, steal bombs, copy bombs, manipulate your library, protect Braids, Propaganda effects, bounce permanents, and so on and so forth. I think you should try to narrow that list down to 2 or 3 things you are trying to do and just play the best of everything else.
My Braids, for instance, focused on dropping bombs, stealing and/or copying those of my opponents, and keeping counter mana open for wraths. Now, it wasn't a perfect plan... it was my first EDH deck after all. Braids will die and you will struggle... better to survive to the late game when you have the biggest baddest spells, for sure. But I got to live the dream and untap with Emrakul, Kozilek and Ulamog, and it was good.
I'd go through your list and check out cards that fulfill multiple functions for you and set them aside as serious contenders. Take Kira for instance. Protects Braids AND your bombs and your stolen creatures for the low cost of 3 mana. Also diverts that spot removal to other players' creatures, which is nice for the FFA situation of course. Kira should probably make your deck. Also, take for example Phyrexian Ingester and Duplicant- they are really hot stuff because they eat your opponents' free bombs AND get bigger off of them. Your opponents will play right into your hands. I'd consider playing both.
And as for your bombs, you don't need 30 obviously (I realize this is just a workbench of sorts). Just play the best ones. Powerful sphinxes (BTW where is Chancellor of the Spires? RAWR) and Eldrazi are a great start because they all have some form of evasion. You don't have to play stuff like Launch to make them better- though you may find you like it anyway. BTW swords are great sources of evasion with their protection from colors and are a lot more useful than uber-expensive equips like Argentum Armor. Also, one Whispersilk Cloak goes a long way here.
Hope you find that to be a good start. I don't mean to be overbearing or anything- just want to help you evaluate some cards and find a focus for the deck instead of just loading up on 100 cards that don't really work together, which is really tempting to do with a general like Braids. If you build it, I hope you have a lot of fun with it and it will inspire you to try even more new things.
Bump. Okay, I'm ready to remove the [WIP] part of the title. We're ready for primetime!
Please feel free to help me figure this thing out. Discuss! Elucidate! Expound! Criticise! Suggest!
In response to Sonik - I think I discussed a lot of your points in my edits to the original post. I trimmed down the beaters, added in counter magic, cut a lot of the extra stuff my deck was trying to do, and focused (good advice, by the way - thanks). I did keep some of my pet creatures in there, just because I like them, and if you can't play stuff that's slightly janky in EDH just because you think it's cool, where can you play them? ;-D I still didn't put in Chancellor of the Spires because... he seems somewhat situational? I dunno, maybe I'm being silly here and there will be plenty of things I'll want to copy all over the place. I'll need to think some more about that one. I'd be interested to hear a few second opinions on this one, lol.
Ok personally the first thing I might consider doing in a deck like this is having a means to flash braids into play at instant speed. This means that you get to activate off of braids first and get the bonus first. When playing a commander like braids opponents usually want to gain her advantage then kill her so other opponents dont get her. If you flash her in you get arround this problem.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir not only does he let you flash in braids but he also prevents opponents from countering / spot removing her before she triggers for you.
Leyline of Anticipation another means to play things at instant speed. If you want to drop big old fatties then having them surprise have haste essentially is really powerful. It also allows you to hold up counterspell mana in case it is needed.
The next thing I notice is you have wayyyyyy too many fatties like sonik pointed out. I would cut back to like mabe 15 or so. You just cant run a blue deck assuming that braids will stick and you can drop big old fatties. If that is how your deck operates everyone will kill braids then use their own creature that braids gave them in for free to kill you.
here are a few cut options I would suggest:
Rite of Replication braids cant cheat this out and it is extremely expensive to kick. It also cannot be used on shrouded targets and if someone spot kills its target it fizzles. It sort of sucks in my mind. It is big though but you have big covered in your creature section.
Deathrender wayyyyy too slow. You dont have a lot of small creatures that will die either so I dont see this speeding you up much.
Time Stretch it costs way too much mana. Ideally you get to 10 mana with braids in play cheating fatties. I know it sounds like fun but you need to trim the deck costs way back. This is way too slow and needs to be cut. If you want an extra turn effect try Time Warp
Teferi's Veil I could see you potentially having issues with braids attacking and not dying. You need to protect braids the turn she comes down not a turn later and after you attack. This is too slow to work.
Ertai, Wizard Adept he is a damn lightning rod. I dont know if I have ever goten him to stick more than a turn. Everyone knows how annoying he is and they dont like it. You might as well run Spellskite instead as I think you would get more mileage out of it.
Jace, The Mind Sculptor he doesnt scale well into multiplayer games. I have never seen him really work well. There are just too many opponents who can jab him for a bit of damage here and there and he just dies too quickly. He is better off in a 1v1 environemtn.
Arcanis the Omnipotent -> Azami, Lady of Scrolls the big difference here is that you can tap Azami and any other wizards you control to draw cards the turn she comes in. Arcanis is cool and has a bigger payload but he costs more and he cant activate the turn he comes in. In my mind Azami guarantees you draw at least 1-2 cards as she can tap right away. Also she allows you to tap braids for cards which is cool. I always like the guaranteed cards vs the maybe cards.
Out of your Beat Sticks section the only ones I realy like (no particular order here) are:
[CARD]Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Darksteel Colossus
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Sphinx of Uthuun
Memnarch
Steel Hellkite
Wurmcoil Engine
Duplicant[/CARD]
even then the eldrazi dont trigger their cast abilities so they loose some functionality. I think you should try to cut that section back to be like 15 cards max.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Wow, a lot of thoughts. Thanks a ton for taking the time to look at the list and give me your thoughts. Much appreciated.
Teferi, et., al. - yeah, this was one of my hopes for the deck, to find a way to incorporate all the flash stuff. I listed it in the "stuff that pains me to cut" section. You saying it again is making me wonder what stuff I can cut to put it in.
Rite of Replication, Time Stretch - these are indeed expensive, but I've won multiple games off of both of these cards. I'll consider your advice, but I've found that if I can cast either of these, the game is mine.
15 beaters w/the rest being small utility/drawing creatures - I... think I like that advice. It makes a lot of sense. I hate cutting beaters, because I like them all, but I do need something to do when I can't cast a big guy yet. This is probably very sound advice that I really need to consider. More thought needed.
Teferi's Veil - this isn't really to protect Braids, it's to protect my big guys from field wipe or other sorcery spot removal (Vindicate, etc.). I don't see that I would usually be attacking w/Braids.
Azami - I considered this for a moment, I need to take another look at this. I think your recommendation is probably very sound. Tapping Braids for a card, as well as Venser, Glen Eledra, etc... I like that.
Ertai, Wizard Adept - I wondered a lot about this card, lol. You're probably right that it won't stick around very long. I probably should choose another counter spell.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - I've heard this guy doesn't do well in multi games. I think I'll give him a playtest or two before I give up on him. I've already got one, so I won't need to buy one to try it out. I like him in this deck because he helps me bounce things as well as draw things.
Wow, a lot of thoughts. Thanks a ton for taking the time to look at the list and give me your thoughts. Much appreciated.
Teferi, et., al. - yeah, this was one of my hopes for the deck, to find a way to incorporate all the flash stuff. I listed it in the "stuff that pains me to cut" section. You saying it again is making me wonder what stuff I can cut to put it in.
Rite of Replication, Time Stretch - these are indeed expensive, but I've won multiple games off of both of these cards. I'll consider your advice, but I've found that if I can cast either of these, the game is mine.
15 beaters w/the rest being small utility/drawing creatures - I... think I like that advice. It makes a lot of sense. I hate cutting beaters, because I like them all, but I do need something to do when I can't cast a big guy yet. This is probably very sound advice that I really need to consider. More thought needed.
Teferi's Veil - this isn't really to protect Braids, it's to protect my big guys from field wipe or other sorcery spot removal (Vindicate, etc.). I don't see that I would usually be attacking w/Braids.
Azami - I considered this for a moment, I need to take another look at this. I think your recommendation is probably very sound. Tapping Braids for a card, as well as Venser, Glen Eledra, etc... I like that.
Ertai, Wizard Adept - I wondered a lot about this card, lol. You're probably right that it won't stick around very long. I probably should choose another counter spell.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - I've heard this guy doesn't do well in multi games. I think I'll give him a playtest or two before I give up on him. I've already got one, so I won't need to buy one to try it out. I like him in this deck because he helps me bounce things as well as draw things.
Thanks again, much to think about.
For the big spells like rite of rep just keep this in mind, If you sit on that card all game from your opening hand and you finally cast it and I use my Path to Exile on it you just lost out on that card. It sat in your hand all game and it is hard to utilize. There is potential for a big momentum swing but there is also a good chance that it gets responded to by a wrath of god type effect. It is a large spell that leaves you tapped out and vulnerable. I am not trying to say it is wrong to put these effects in a deck but to be honest I havent run either of those in quite a while and it isnt because I feel that they are TOO Powerful or TOO Good, it is actually that I feel that they are too slow, too situational, and too easily answered.
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For the big spells like rite of rep just keep this in mind, If you sit on that card all game from your opening hand and you finally cast it and I use my Path to Exile on it you just lost out on that card. It sat in your hand all game and it is hard to utilize. There is potential for a big momentum swing but there is also a good chance that it gets responded to by a wrath of god type effect. It is a large spell that leaves you tapped out and vulnerable. I am not trying to say it is wrong to put these effects in a deck but to be honest I havent run either of those in quite a while and it isnt because I feel that they are TOO Powerful or TOO Good, it is actually that I feel that they are too slow, too situational, and too easily answered.
You do of course have a point. But I don't really like that philosophy in general - "don't play too riskily", or "don't play things that are too high profile - surely they won't succeed". Some people might advise not to play Consecrated Sphinx - they might say you're dreaming if you think it won't die as soon it hits the table. But I've done it multiple times! Yes, your opponent might have an answer, they might kill it. But if they don't, the rewards are amazing. Maybe this just comes down to a big difference in playstyle or deckbuilding philisophy. I'm going to have to think about this one some more. My first inclination is to say high risk, high reward, but you may be right.
For the Time Stretch... what if I subbed it out for Lighthouse Chronologist? I've always wanted to find a blue deck he fit into, lol... (I can hear you saying now that I'll never untap with it though, lol)
It could be fun. At least you can play the chronologist earlier and level him up well before Time Stretch is even possible. It is only 9 mana to drop and fully level him up. I saw one of these go arround the table twice the other night >_< luckily that player didnt have a good follow up plan because his deck sort of sucked but it was still crazy.
EDIT: still I wont say that one is better than the other. The little wizard guy is cool because you can drop him in earlier but if your opponents allow you to take several turns to level him up they are just asking for it. Both can be risky but the Chronologist has a bigger payoff for sure.
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Have you considered Sower of Temptation? I don't see any strip mine, wasteland effects. Nobody else has mentioned it, but..... Tolarian Academy is banned.Not saying it's bad but I think I only saw 2 trinket mage targets? IMO that's not enough targets to justify running him.
As I was looking at this deck I couldn't help but think of Cloudstone Curio.
Might warrant a slot.
Cloudstone Curio. I... wow. I really like that idea. I was thinking all night last night about your idea. Put something big into play, bounce Braids back to hand. This would work especially well with more utility ETB guys, as well as some stuff I've already got in there (Sphinx of Uthuun, Duplicant,Draining Whelk, etc). I think this may warrant a small overhaul of the list.
Vanishing is on the list, what a great card. It protects Braids (or a fattie if I want to use it like that, but I probably won't), and deprives my opponent's of her use. What an amazing card in the deck. Followed Footsteps... now there's another idea that's very interesting, didn't even think of that one. It would paint a huge target on whatever creature I put it on... unless I went with the flash motif, and flashed it in before my turn. I really like that idea. More thought required here.
Wow, this is a massive improvement from what the list was a few days ago. Good job!
This is pretty much the same type of deck that I built my Teferi EDH around... playing big blue/colorless beaters with some light control/protection.
I'm a bit curious about some of your creature choices and wanted to know how they were working for you.
Frost Titan never really stood out to me. His first skill seemed like a worse variant of Kira. The 6/6 body would be a lot nicer with evasion.
Platinum Emperion seems interesting, but I feel like it would draw a lot of hate really fast. How has it been working in your games?
Thanks! I've really been working on this to make it more focused and effective. I've spent an embarassing amount of time thinking of why each card belongs in there, what its' role is, etc. I appreciate the advice.
Frosty - yeah, he's a bit jank in Commander, lol. He's my fav finisher in standard, so I just sort of threw him in there. I think he's going to get cut in the next round of adjustments.
Platinum Emperion - I haven't actually tried this list out yet, so I can't fully answer your question of how he's been working. I have this picture in my head of slapping the Darksteel Plate on him, and laughing all the way to the win. Who knows if that will happen or not. I'll let you know, lol.
Have you considered Sower of Temptation? I don't see any strip mine, wasteland effects. Nobody else has mentioned it, but..... Tolarian Academy is banned.Not saying it's bad but I think I only saw 2 trinket mage targets? IMO that's not enough targets to justify running him.
Other than that it looks fun.
Yeah, I considered Sower of Temptation. I didn't have much room for the steal stuff, so I went with the Gilded Drake instead, since I get to keep the creature even if the Gilded Drake dies. That's the biggest drawback to the Sower, unfortunately. As for the no Stripmine, Wasteland effects... yeah, that's a fair criticism. I'll have to see if I can squeeze one in. As for the Tolarian Academy - whoops - that's a typo! It's supposed to be Tolaria West! My bad! Changing right now...
Bump. Made a bunch of the suggested changes in the thread. Cut some big guys, put more utility guys in there (Wizards tribal FTW!), found room for the flash/ETB theme. I think this is a much better list than it was a few days ago. Continued suggestions welcome!
Hey this looks a lot better dude. Couple things obviously:
[CARD]
Trinket Mage[/CARD] should be in here. Even if you are JUST tutoring for Top and Sol Ring, it is worth it. Anything else is just gravy. He is much better than Merchant of Secrets and Council of Advisors. And Treasure Mage should be a ringer here! He can come in for the other one. Why just draw a random card when you can tutor for something guaranteed to be something good? And they're both Wizads, so they play well with Sage of Fables and Azami.
I feel like you will never cast It that Betrays. Untapping with him is brutal, sure, but if someone deals with Braids, at least you can hard-cast 8-drops. This guy will be dead for a lot longer. I still think Frost Titan is pretty good but your mileage may vary I guess. It's silly to say he doesn't have evasion when he can tap down blockers. He can also keep your opponents' freebies in check, which is something sort of at a premium here.
I notice you're playing very little pro-actve removal. If your opponents drop bigger bombs than you do, how do you deal with it? I think you should cut some win-more stuff like Followed Footsteps for at least a Pongify or a Spin Into Myth. Treachery would be the best thing you could get if you can come up with one.
I also think you need a reset button in case things go real bad. Innundate probably won't be enough. All is Dust is very good and I would think about making a spot for it. Or you can use Oblivion Stone, then recur it with Academy Ruins, which should absolutely be in here as one of your non-basics if it isn't.
Another card with a lot of blowout potential for you here is High Tide. You can cast Braids, drop your freebie next turn, then High Tide and play another 8-drop like Sundering Titan, another card a mono-blue deck should have for sure (cut the somewhat useless Platinum Emperion).
no matter what deck im running, i generally limit my countermagic to 2-3 if any. Its there to stop some giant bomb from hitting the board, not to stop everything. in EDH(commander) bounce owns counter magic.
especially in braids. When i had my build going, my purpose in the deck wasnt to protect braids. My purpose was to deal with what my opponents were putting out. The drop an artifact off my braids.....bounce it. The drop a badass critter with shroud, Innundate. They drop another, evacuation. They drop a land sunder, they drop something else, repeal, they drop something elserepulse, they drop something else Into the roil.....I think you get the picture. Granite, this was a 1v1 deck, so that strat worked very well. In multiplayer it may be different. Just sharing my experience with the general.
Cutting Followed Footsteps to put in Treachery is also a great idea. I like that it works with the flash theme too, leaving the mana open for other things.
Academy Ruins, also a good call. I'll cut Maze of Ith for it. There are enough artifacts to justify it's inclusion.
You're more of a fan of sweepers than I am, as far as the O-stone, etc., goes. I think I might do a bit of playtesting before I commit to those. It's probably a good idea, I just have to think about it more.
It That Betrays... this is a hard guy for me to cut. I totally understand your point about him being the highest CMC in my deck, but in Commander, this guy is an absolute house. People sac things sooo much, it's crazy once you start paying attention to it. High Market, fetchlands, many black decks, infinite altar shenanigans, evoke creatures, lots of staple utility creatures, etc., etc., etc. He also works well with himself and all the other Annihilators, stealing things all around. I actually considered putting in, (instead of the Wizard utility guys), Rishadan Cutpurse, Rishadan Footpad, Rishadan Brigand, and Fade Away; they would help me keep the free stuff from Braids down a little bit, and work insanely well with It That Betrays. So... I gotta think a little bit more about that one too, maybe platest a little bit. If it does just sit in my hand as you predict, it will definitely come out.
High Tide - that's not a bad idea, I'll see if I can find a place for that. I don't like that it's one use, but it does make for some cuh-razy plays.
Sundering Titan - land d... I'm gonna need to think about his one. I feel like I'm already going to have enough hate directed at me by playing mono U and a general who allows me to cheat big guys into play, haha.
Platinum Emperion - yeah, you're probably right about this one. I think I'm just irrantionally holding onto him. I'll find something to put in his slot.
Hrmm. Cutting down on the counter-magic definitely means I don't have a way to keep my guys on the board. Or keep other players from combo'ing out. Now that I've put it in, I feel like it's really an integral part of the deck's strategy. I'd need to add back in all the Darksteel Plates, etc., but that only covers half the problem. Also, regarding the bounce... I think I would build the deck similar to yours if I was building for 1v1, but I just don't have the resources to try to bounce everything (or even most things. Or even a lot of things) at a 4 player table. When envisioning the idea for this deck, I imagined that it would have a ton of bounce, but thinking about it more and more, I think the strategy of bouncing Braids back to my hand or flashing her in before my turn is probably a better strategy in general, because it impacts all the other players with a minimal amount of effort.
Bump. I've made a ton of changes in the last couple of weeks. I put in a lot of tutors; I think for the first part of most games I'll be searching for stuff that enables flash and bounce, then go from there.
I replaced Time Stop with Scattering Stroke, a card I'd never heard of before. It was made for this deck!
I'm living the dream, putting both It That Betrays and All is Dust in here. I'm rubbing my hands together imagining that play.
Made enough changes that I thought it deserved another bump.
I'm really trying to push the "flash Braids into play, bounce her out" theme, so I increased cards that play to that (Erratic Portal, Tidespout Tyrant), and cut cards that didn't work with the theme (Kira, Great Glass Spinner). Most of these cards have the added bonus of being able to bounce stuff my opponent is playing.
I also put 2 cards in that I think are really going to help the deck out a ton - Scroll Rack and Time Spiral. I've played the deck several times where I needed something that I didn't have in hand. Those help me solve that problem quite handily. I'll make space for a Memory Jar if I still have the problem.
Please feel free to make suggestions, talk about card choice, etc. I *really* enjoy playing this deck. I actually find it hard to imagine me playing a deck that I would enjoy more. :-D
Okay, so I've played enough games recently to realize that the "flash her in, bounce her out" theme isn't working all that well. I've come across two problems with this strategy - by the time my flash/bounce engine is set up (I have to draw and tutor into the cards, and there really aren't that many), either I've ramped up far enough that I don't need Braids to help me cheat in the big guys, or one of my opponents has run away with such a huge position (Gaea's cradles, Primeval Titans, etc., etc.), I just can't recover.
After thinking about it for a few days, I think the answer might be that I need to retire blue Braids and replace her with another general. I think Teferi might be the answer here. Flashing in the big guys and being able to protect them with counter magic.
I like braids, she is fun and cool. I played her a long time ago, and I keep comming back to her. Anyone can win with Teferi, it's rather easy in fact. But Braids takes a little more Flare and isn't the typical blue deck. Here are some suggestions
I like grozoth as well he tutors for Artisan, Inkwell and Hand of Emrakul, and even the Unspeakable (Unspeakable can get you repeated disrupting shoal, you can counter whatever attack and get it again)
Yeah trying to flash braids in is tricky, if you can do it fast great, otherwise I just cast her quickly and drop a Huge monster on turn 5 and bounce or phase her. The Thing with braids is to beat your opponents with Virtual card advantage, I would definitly put in blightsteel colossus andgrafted exoskeleton, you can knock out opponents fast with those, use some clone effects like clone, vesuvan doppleganger, and quicksilver gargantuan to either copy the best creatures on the board or kill opposing generals.
This deck is built around flashing Braids into play, and getting to use her ability before anyone else does, then bouncing her out. Some counter magic thrown in to protect my fatties.
The win condition of the deck is to get one really big and splashy fattie into play, and riding him to victory. The best ones are the Eldrazi and (my favorite) Stormtide Leviathan.
The list (each section is organized roughly by CMC):
1 Braids, Conjurer Adept
Fatties (15)
1 Guile
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Frost Titan
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Memnarch
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Artisan of Kozilek
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 It That Betrays
Steal (2)
1 Gilded Drake
1 Treachery
Bounce (6)
1 Crystal Shard
1 Erratic Portal
1 Temporal Adept
1 Wash Out
1 Capsize
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Vedalken Orrery
Various (5)
1 Quicksilver Amulet
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 All is Dust
1 Rite of Replication
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Swiftfoot Boots
Anti-removal (9)
1 Mana Drain
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Hinder
1 Spell Crumple
1 Rewind
1 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Glen Eledra Archmage
Tutor (7)
1 Expedition Map
1 Trinket Mage
1 Treasure Mage
1 Fabricate
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Riptide Shapeshifter
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Magus of the Future
1 Mystic Remora
1 Scroll Rack
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Time Spiral
1 Consecrated Sphinx
Ramp (6)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 High Tide
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Caged Sun
Lands (38)
1 Scrying Sheets
1 Homeward Path
1 Academy Ruins
1 Winding Canyons
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolaria West
1 Eye of Ugin
30 Snow-covered lands
Random thoughts:
I envisioned this deck having a lot more big blue guys as the anchors/finishers, but the biggest blue guys have enormous drawbacks (I'm looking at you, Polar Kraken and Leviathan ಠ_ಠ). Eldrazis it is, then. A bit less flavorful, but extremely effective.
I originally didn't have any counter magic on the list, but Sonik pointed out to me that I'm going to see a lot of field wipes. He's very right of course. Can't have that! So in they go.
Small combos:
-Extraplanar Lens/Gauntlet of Power/Caged Sun + Rewind/Treachery/Time Spiral = I get more mana out than I put into the spell, interesting way to ramp
-It That Betrays + All is Dust = All your base are belong to us.
-Magus of the Future + Sensei's Divining Top = crazy top of library manipulation, draw as many cards as I have mana
-Magus of the Future + Sensei's Divining Top + Tidespout Tyrant = bounce as many permanents as I have mana
Cutthroat package:
-Blightsteel Colossus - killing someone in one hit seems a bit too jerk-ish.
-Pathrazer of Ulamog - I've already got 4 Eldrazi, I've hit my max level of jerkishness for annihilators already.
-Sundering Titan - this may get a slot, depending on how mean I feel like being. I feel like the deck is already mean enough though, lol.
-Tidespout Tyrant + Palinchron + one of the three mana doubling artifacts = bounce everything on the board.
-Memnarch + Palinchron + one of the three mana doubling artifacts = steal all permanents on the board.
-I'm not a huge fan of combo'ing out to end the game, so those last two are out for now.
Beaters that didn't make the cut:
Beaters that had untenable conditions:
Long list of good stuff that didn't make it:
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OK so here's the cards I think will not pull their weight:
Quicksilver Dragon: Nothing special and you know it
Sphinx of Jwar Isle: Too vanilla.
Goliath Sphinx: Also too vanilla
Platinum Angel: Too defensive
Lorthos: What's the point of cheating him in if you can't afford his ability in your next attack step?
Tidal Kraken: Borrrrrring
Erratic Portal: Replace with Fabricate or Tezzeret the Seeker and just tutor for Crystal Shard
Grozoth: Great, now someone has killed Braids and your hand is stuck with a bunch of 9-drops.
The Unspeakable: Suspect Grozoth got you excited. Borrrring
Deep Sea Kraken: Borrrring
Temporal Adept/Time Elemental: Suspect these abilities are too mana intensive
Gather Specimens: You can't use this to get their freebies. You will have to cast it in response to Braids's triggered ability or else you will allow it to resolve. If you cast it then, your opponent will not likely give you his freebie...
Argentum Armor: Prohibitive equip cost. Braids wont always be there for you.
Disappear: Replace with Mystical Tutor and just get Capsize.
Wonder: Win more
Sun Quan/Deepchannel Mentor: Win more
Akroma's Memorial: Win more, though this one is different because haste is amazing...
Launch: Noticing a theme here. I would just play or copy bombs that have evasion. It's almost like you're trying to get Kresh through for damage
Psychic Battle: This is not worth your time. Your worst enemy is going to be Wrath of God, not spot removal. Play some counterspells. This is one of the few decks that can get away with more expensive ones like Desertion and Draining Whelk because you don't really need your main phase mana that badly. Oh, and Timesifter is better at this (though people really hate to play against it).
Dream Halls: He who draws the most wins. I'm not sure you are configured for winning in that situation right now...
Propaganda: With bombs doing the swinging and you freeing up all their mana, is a piece of cake for them
Dissipation Field: Like some of your other bounce, you will actually be helping them in many cases. Would I like to attack you with my Sphinx of Uthuun, bounce it and replay it? YES PLZ
Crawlspace: Pretty sure a token army is going to be the least of your concerns lol
Flood: Too narrow I think but YMMV
Planar Portal: Man that activation cost is so expensive. YMMV again
Time Stretch: Why not just go with Rite of Replication? If you're not willing to play Blightsteel but you're willing to play Time Stretch, I don't think that's much of a statement either way.
Aven Fateshaper: Stretching it here. If you have to pay that much mana, you ought to get to keep the cards...
(you forgot Caged Sun)
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With what's left, to me it seems like you are trying to do waaaaay too many things at once. You want to play bombs, steal bombs, copy bombs, manipulate your library, protect Braids, Propaganda effects, bounce permanents, and so on and so forth. I think you should try to narrow that list down to 2 or 3 things you are trying to do and just play the best of everything else.
My Braids, for instance, focused on dropping bombs, stealing and/or copying those of my opponents, and keeping counter mana open for wraths. Now, it wasn't a perfect plan... it was my first EDH deck after all. Braids will die and you will struggle... better to survive to the late game when you have the biggest baddest spells, for sure. But I got to live the dream and untap with Emrakul, Kozilek and Ulamog, and it was good.
I'd go through your list and check out cards that fulfill multiple functions for you and set them aside as serious contenders. Take Kira for instance. Protects Braids AND your bombs and your stolen creatures for the low cost of 3 mana. Also diverts that spot removal to other players' creatures, which is nice for the FFA situation of course. Kira should probably make your deck. Also, take for example Phyrexian Ingester and Duplicant- they are really hot stuff because they eat your opponents' free bombs AND get bigger off of them. Your opponents will play right into your hands. I'd consider playing both.
And as for your bombs, you don't need 30 obviously (I realize this is just a workbench of sorts). Just play the best ones. Powerful sphinxes (BTW where is Chancellor of the Spires? RAWR) and Eldrazi are a great start because they all have some form of evasion. You don't have to play stuff like Launch to make them better- though you may find you like it anyway. BTW swords are great sources of evasion with their protection from colors and are a lot more useful than uber-expensive equips like Argentum Armor. Also, one Whispersilk Cloak goes a long way here.
Hope you find that to be a good start. I don't mean to be overbearing or anything- just want to help you evaluate some cards and find a focus for the deck instead of just loading up on 100 cards that don't really work together, which is really tempting to do with a general like Braids. If you build it, I hope you have a lot of fun with it and it will inspire you to try even more new things.
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Please feel free to help me figure this thing out. Discuss! Elucidate! Expound! Criticise! Suggest!
In response to Sonik - I think I discussed a lot of your points in my edits to the original post. I trimmed down the beaters, added in counter magic, cut a lot of the extra stuff my deck was trying to do, and focused (good advice, by the way - thanks). I did keep some of my pet creatures in there, just because I like them, and if you can't play stuff that's slightly janky in EDH just because you think it's cool, where can you play them? ;-D I still didn't put in Chancellor of the Spires because... he seems somewhat situational? I dunno, maybe I'm being silly here and there will be plenty of things I'll want to copy all over the place. I'll need to think some more about that one. I'd be interested to hear a few second opinions on this one, lol.
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EDH:
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Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Dralnu- Dimir Snap!
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Kumano, Master Yamabushi
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There's Artisan Of Kozilek in the list, just above Grozoth.
Grozoth himself isn't all that awesome sauce, but he grabs both Artisan and Inkwell Leviathan. I had The Unspeakable in there too, but he's so... bleh.
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Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir not only does he let you flash in braids but he also prevents opponents from countering / spot removing her before she triggers for you.
Leyline of Anticipation another means to play things at instant speed. If you want to drop big old fatties then having them surprise have haste essentially is really powerful. It also allows you to hold up counterspell mana in case it is needed.
Winding Canyons again flash is your friend. Use it well.
The next thing I notice is you have wayyyyyy too many fatties like sonik pointed out. I would cut back to like mabe 15 or so. You just cant run a blue deck assuming that braids will stick and you can drop big old fatties. If that is how your deck operates everyone will kill braids then use their own creature that braids gave them in for free to kill you.
here are a few cut options I would suggest:
Rite of Replication braids cant cheat this out and it is extremely expensive to kick. It also cannot be used on shrouded targets and if someone spot kills its target it fizzles. It sort of sucks in my mind. It is big though but you have big covered in your creature section.
Deathrender wayyyyy too slow. You dont have a lot of small creatures that will die either so I dont see this speeding you up much.
Time Stretch it costs way too much mana. Ideally you get to 10 mana with braids in play cheating fatties. I know it sounds like fun but you need to trim the deck costs way back. This is way too slow and needs to be cut. If you want an extra turn effect try Time Warp
Teferi's Veil I could see you potentially having issues with braids attacking and not dying. You need to protect braids the turn she comes down not a turn later and after you attack. This is too slow to work.
Ertai, Wizard Adept he is a damn lightning rod. I dont know if I have ever goten him to stick more than a turn. Everyone knows how annoying he is and they dont like it. You might as well run Spellskite instead as I think you would get more mileage out of it.
Jace, The Mind Sculptor he doesnt scale well into multiplayer games. I have never seen him really work well. There are just too many opponents who can jab him for a bit of damage here and there and he just dies too quickly. He is better off in a 1v1 environemtn.
Arcanis the Omnipotent -> Azami, Lady of Scrolls the big difference here is that you can tap Azami and any other wizards you control to draw cards the turn she comes in. Arcanis is cool and has a bigger payload but he costs more and he cant activate the turn he comes in. In my mind Azami guarantees you draw at least 1-2 cards as she can tap right away. Also she allows you to tap braids for cards which is cool. I always like the guaranteed cards vs the maybe cards.
Out of your Beat Sticks section the only ones I realy like (no particular order here) are:
[CARD]Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Darksteel Colossus
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Sphinx of Uthuun
Memnarch
Steel Hellkite
Wurmcoil Engine
Duplicant[/CARD]
even then the eldrazi dont trigger their cast abilities so they loose some functionality. I think you should try to cut that section back to be like 15 cards max.
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Wow, a lot of thoughts. Thanks a ton for taking the time to look at the list and give me your thoughts. Much appreciated.
Teferi, et., al. - yeah, this was one of my hopes for the deck, to find a way to incorporate all the flash stuff. I listed it in the "stuff that pains me to cut" section. You saying it again is making me wonder what stuff I can cut to put it in.
Rite of Replication, Time Stretch - these are indeed expensive, but I've won multiple games off of both of these cards. I'll consider your advice, but I've found that if I can cast either of these, the game is mine.
15 beaters w/the rest being small utility/drawing creatures - I... think I like that advice. It makes a lot of sense. I hate cutting beaters, because I like them all, but I do need something to do when I can't cast a big guy yet. This is probably very sound advice that I really need to consider. More thought needed.
Teferi's Veil - this isn't really to protect Braids, it's to protect my big guys from field wipe or other sorcery spot removal (Vindicate, etc.). I don't see that I would usually be attacking w/Braids.
Azami - I considered this for a moment, I need to take another look at this. I think your recommendation is probably very sound. Tapping Braids for a card, as well as Venser, Glen Eledra, etc... I like that.
Ertai, Wizard Adept - I wondered a lot about this card, lol. You're probably right that it won't stick around very long. I probably should choose another counter spell.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - I've heard this guy doesn't do well in multi games. I think I'll give him a playtest or two before I give up on him. I've already got one, so I won't need to buy one to try it out. I like him in this deck because he helps me bounce things as well as draw things.
Thanks again, much to think about.
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For the big spells like rite of rep just keep this in mind, If you sit on that card all game from your opening hand and you finally cast it and I use my Path to Exile on it you just lost out on that card. It sat in your hand all game and it is hard to utilize. There is potential for a big momentum swing but there is also a good chance that it gets responded to by a wrath of god type effect. It is a large spell that leaves you tapped out and vulnerable. I am not trying to say it is wrong to put these effects in a deck but to be honest I havent run either of those in quite a while and it isnt because I feel that they are TOO Powerful or TOO Good, it is actually that I feel that they are too slow, too situational, and too easily answered.
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You do of course have a point. But I don't really like that philosophy in general - "don't play too riskily", or "don't play things that are too high profile - surely they won't succeed". Some people might advise not to play Consecrated Sphinx - they might say you're dreaming if you think it won't die as soon it hits the table. But I've done it multiple times! Yes, your opponent might have an answer, they might kill it. But if they don't, the rewards are amazing. Maybe this just comes down to a big difference in playstyle or deckbuilding philisophy. I'm going to have to think about this one some more. My first inclination is to say high risk, high reward, but you may be right.
For the Time Stretch... what if I subbed it out for Lighthouse Chronologist? I've always wanted to find a blue deck he fit into, lol... (I can hear you saying now that I'll never untap with it though, lol)
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EDIT: still I wont say that one is better than the other. The little wizard guy is cool because you can drop him in earlier but if your opponents allow you to take several turns to level him up they are just asking for it. Both can be risky but the Chronologist has a bigger payoff for sure.
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Might warrant a slot.
Vanishing to deprive your opponents of capitalizing on her ability?
Followed Footsteps or Gate to the Æther[/c] for synergy with Paradox Haze?
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
This is pretty much the same type of deck that I built my Teferi EDH around... playing big blue/colorless beaters with some light control/protection.
I'm a bit curious about some of your creature choices and wanted to know how they were working for you.
Frost Titan never really stood out to me. His first skill seemed like a worse variant of Kira. The 6/6 body would be a lot nicer with evasion.
Platinum Emperion seems interesting, but I feel like it would draw a lot of hate really fast. How has it been working in your games?
Other than that it looks fun.
Cloudstone Curio. I... wow. I really like that idea. I was thinking all night last night about your idea. Put something big into play, bounce Braids back to hand. This would work especially well with more utility ETB guys, as well as some stuff I've already got in there (Sphinx of Uthuun, Duplicant,Draining Whelk, etc). I think this may warrant a small overhaul of the list.
Vanishing is on the list, what a great card. It protects Braids (or a fattie if I want to use it like that, but I probably won't), and deprives my opponent's of her use. What an amazing card in the deck. Followed Footsteps... now there's another idea that's very interesting, didn't even think of that one. It would paint a huge target on whatever creature I put it on... unless I went with the flash motif, and flashed it in before my turn. I really like that idea. More thought required here.
Thanks! I've really been working on this to make it more focused and effective. I've spent an embarassing amount of time thinking of why each card belongs in there, what its' role is, etc. I appreciate the advice.
Frosty - yeah, he's a bit jank in Commander, lol. He's my fav finisher in standard, so I just sort of threw him in there. I think he's going to get cut in the next round of adjustments.
Platinum Emperion - I haven't actually tried this list out yet, so I can't fully answer your question of how he's been working. I have this picture in my head of slapping the Darksteel Plate on him, and laughing all the way to the win. Who knows if that will happen or not. I'll let you know, lol.
Yeah, I considered Sower of Temptation. I didn't have much room for the steal stuff, so I went with the Gilded Drake instead, since I get to keep the creature even if the Gilded Drake dies. That's the biggest drawback to the Sower, unfortunately. As for the no Stripmine, Wasteland effects... yeah, that's a fair criticism. I'll have to see if I can squeeze one in. As for the Tolarian Academy - whoops - that's a typo! It's supposed to be Tolaria West! My bad! Changing right now...
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[CARD]
Trinket Mage[/CARD] should be in here. Even if you are JUST tutoring for Top and Sol Ring, it is worth it. Anything else is just gravy. He is much better than Merchant of Secrets and Council of Advisors. And Treasure Mage should be a ringer here! He can come in for the other one. Why just draw a random card when you can tutor for something guaranteed to be something good? And they're both Wizads, so they play well with Sage of Fables and Azami.
I feel like you will never cast It that Betrays. Untapping with him is brutal, sure, but if someone deals with Braids, at least you can hard-cast 8-drops. This guy will be dead for a lot longer. I still think Frost Titan is pretty good but your mileage may vary I guess. It's silly to say he doesn't have evasion when he can tap down blockers. He can also keep your opponents' freebies in check, which is something sort of at a premium here.
I notice you're playing very little pro-actve removal. If your opponents drop bigger bombs than you do, how do you deal with it? I think you should cut some win-more stuff like Followed Footsteps for at least a Pongify or a Spin Into Myth. Treachery would be the best thing you could get if you can come up with one.
I also think you need a reset button in case things go real bad. Innundate probably won't be enough. All is Dust is very good and I would think about making a spot for it. Or you can use Oblivion Stone, then recur it with Academy Ruins, which should absolutely be in here as one of your non-basics if it isn't.
Another card with a lot of blowout potential for you here is High Tide. You can cast Braids, drop your freebie next turn, then High Tide and play another 8-drop like Sundering Titan, another card a mono-blue deck should have for sure (cut the somewhat useless Platinum Emperion).
So to sum up my observations here:
CUT?
In:
Treachery/Pongify/Spin Into Myth
When you play some games, I have a feeling you're going to want some more removal. But this will be a good start if nothing else. Best of luck man
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Trinket Mage is in there; he amazing at grabbing the Top for me, I love that guy. He was just hidden in the "tutor" section. :-D
Treasure Mage, however... that's a great idea. He can grab ramp (Caged Sun), removal (Duplicant, Steel Hellkite), and beaters (Darksteel Colossus, Wurmcoil Engine, even Akroma's Memorial). I'm definitely going to cut one of the "draw one" guys to throw him in. Good call, I don't know how I missed that one.
Cutting Followed Footsteps to put in Treachery is also a great idea. I like that it works with the flash theme too, leaving the mana open for other things.
Academy Ruins, also a good call. I'll cut Maze of Ith for it. There are enough artifacts to justify it's inclusion.
You're more of a fan of sweepers than I am, as far as the O-stone, etc., goes. I think I might do a bit of playtesting before I commit to those. It's probably a good idea, I just have to think about it more.
It That Betrays... this is a hard guy for me to cut. I totally understand your point about him being the highest CMC in my deck, but in Commander, this guy is an absolute house. People sac things sooo much, it's crazy once you start paying attention to it. High Market, fetchlands, many black decks, infinite altar shenanigans, evoke creatures, lots of staple utility creatures, etc., etc., etc. He also works well with himself and all the other Annihilators, stealing things all around. I actually considered putting in, (instead of the Wizard utility guys), Rishadan Cutpurse, Rishadan Footpad, Rishadan Brigand, and Fade Away; they would help me keep the free stuff from Braids down a little bit, and work insanely well with It That Betrays. So... I gotta think a little bit more about that one too, maybe platest a little bit. If it does just sit in my hand as you predict, it will definitely come out.
High Tide - that's not a bad idea, I'll see if I can find a place for that. I don't like that it's one use, but it does make for some cuh-razy plays.
Sundering Titan - land d... I'm gonna need to think about his one. I feel like I'm already going to have enough hate directed at me by playing mono U and a general who allows me to cheat big guys into play, haha.
Platinum Emperion - yeah, you're probably right about this one. I think I'm just irrantionally holding onto him. I'll find something to put in his slot.
Hrmm. Cutting down on the counter-magic definitely means I don't have a way to keep my guys on the board. Or keep other players from combo'ing out. Now that I've put it in, I feel like it's really an integral part of the deck's strategy. I'd need to add back in all the Darksteel Plates, etc., but that only covers half the problem. Also, regarding the bounce... I think I would build the deck similar to yours if I was building for 1v1, but I just don't have the resources to try to bounce everything (or even most things. Or even a lot of things) at a 4 player table. When envisioning the idea for this deck, I imagined that it would have a ton of bounce, but thinking about it more and more, I think the strategy of bouncing Braids back to my hand or flashing her in before my turn is probably a better strategy in general, because it impacts all the other players with a minimal amount of effort.
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I replaced Time Stop with Scattering Stroke, a card I'd never heard of before. It was made for this deck!
I'm living the dream, putting both It That Betrays and All is Dust in here. I'm rubbing my hands together imagining that play.
Feedback appreciated!
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I'm really trying to push the "flash Braids into play, bounce her out" theme, so I increased cards that play to that (Erratic Portal, Tidespout Tyrant), and cut cards that didn't work with the theme (Kira, Great Glass Spinner). Most of these cards have the added bonus of being able to bounce stuff my opponent is playing.
I had to cut Lighthouse Chronologist for the Quicksilver Amulet. That was stung a little, but I think it had to be done.
I also put 2 cards in that I think are really going to help the deck out a ton - Scroll Rack and Time Spiral. I've played the deck several times where I needed something that I didn't have in hand. Those help me solve that problem quite handily. I'll make space for a Memory Jar if I still have the problem.
Please feel free to make suggestions, talk about card choice, etc. I *really* enjoy playing this deck. I actually find it hard to imagine me playing a deck that I would enjoy more. :-D
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After thinking about it for a few days, I think the answer might be that I need to retire blue Braids and replace her with another general. I think Teferi might be the answer here. Flashing in the big guys and being able to protect them with counter magic.
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Tawnos Coffin - Lock Braids inside to use only during your upkeep
Curfew/ Peel from Reality - Bounce Braids and your opponents creatures
Blatant Thievery - Steal everything your opponents put into play with Braids
Vanishing / Vodalian Illusionist/ Reality Ripple - Phase Braids to protect or use on ur turn
Benthic Behemoth - Hits for 7 on an island player (very likely)
Inkwell Leviathan - same as above WITH shroud & trample
Honden of Seeing Winds - Free draw that won't get hated
Rhystic Study - C'mon its just good the more cards the better
Tidal Kraken / Deep Sea Kraken - Don't Underestimate Unblockable
I like grozoth as well he tutors for Artisan, Inkwell and Hand of Emrakul, and even the Unspeakable (Unspeakable can get you repeated disrupting shoal, you can counter whatever attack and get it again)
A good alternate wincon would be Temple bell + Mind over Matter (Ulamog) = decked opponents. Tezzeret & Fabricate can find the temple bell, Long term plans can find Mind over Matter
Tidesprout Tyrant + Sol ring + Mana crypt= Infinite mana + capsize= Bounce the board
Yeah trying to flash braids in is tricky, if you can do it fast great, otherwise I just cast her quickly and drop a Huge monster on turn 5 and bounce or phase her. The Thing with braids is to beat your opponents with Virtual card advantage, I would definitly put in blightsteel colossus andgrafted exoskeleton, you can knock out opponents fast with those, use some clone effects like clone, vesuvan doppleganger, and quicksilver gargantuan to either copy the best creatures on the board or kill opposing generals.