Hey everyone. I'm new to the forums, but I have really been trying to improve my 2 EDH decks as much as possible, so any advice will always be both welcomed and appreciated. Here is the deck:
Doran, The Destroyer
"Each year that passes rings you inwardly with memory and might. Wield your heart, and the world will tremble."- Doran
The Theme: The goal of this deck is use the best removal and destruction cards possible, killing off my opponents key cards, while using powerful creatures to secure the game in my favor. This deck has worked in both 1 v 1 and multiplayer, but I'm always trying to improve it.
The General: While I understand that Doran might not be considered the best general for a deck like this, I personally like him because of how aggressive he can in almost any game. Dropping him turn 3 is something that happens in almost every game, and he really does put a lot of pressure on my opponent. He's also an amazing defensive card against other aggro edh decks, which is why I favor him over most other Generals of his color.
Possible Inclusions: Pernicious Deed (I'm not a fan of enchantments, but I think this would be good for the deck) Magus of the Disk (I normally prefer immediate wrath effects, but I know that this guy would be a good addition as well) Nevinyrral's Disk (Same as the Magus, but not sure what to take out for it, and I also have a lot of wrath effects already) Shriekmaw (I hate the fact that against a mono black deck, he's pretty much worthless...which is why I haven't added him in the deck yet) Oblation (I know a lot of people say this card is good, but honestly, I hate the idea of letting my opponent draw two cards from it) Masked Admirers (Again, good card, but not sure what to take out for it) Mindslaver (Didn't have room for it, and wasn't sure if it fit the theme anyway) Note: I am always open to the idea of including other cards, but these were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.
Hidden Gems: Hornet Queen- I really am amazed that so few people use this girl. I mean, she's almost like an Avenger of Zendikar when you consider how much board presence she provides. In addition, putting her on a Mimic Vat is just sick. Curse of the Cabal- Again, staying true to the theme of the deck, this particular sorcery is just devastating in EDH (even when it is suspended). The only real weakness it has is being countered, or worse, redirected back at you. Other then that, it helps kill more stuff, which is the overall goal of the deck anyway.
Final Thoughts: If anyone can sell me on Pernicious Deed and Oblation, I'm all for it, but frankly, I really am just looking for any good advice as to how to make my deck better (and please, don't suggest MASS land destruction...that's just no fun). I keep feeling that I might have too many 'wrath' effects, and my mana curve is kinda messed up due to the fact that I hardly have any 4 or 5 drops. However, the deck is HIGHLY versatile at dealing with almost any situation/deck I've put up against it (though sadly, I keep feeling that it needs a little more lifegain as well). Anyways, please let me know what u think, or if you can tell me how it can be improved. Thanks again.
The main thing that stood out to me was the lack of tutors and enchantments. Increasing the number of tutors greatly improves the consistency of the deck and allows you to run a more robust toolbox and less redundancy. There are a few other card choices that I think could be improved as well. My suggested adds in no particular order:
Aura Shards - Fantastic in a creature heavy deck. Sun Titan - I usually recur land with him but sometimes he hits something cool like Mimic Vat. He can also loop Pernicious Deed repeatedly. Vampiric Tutor - Self explanatory. Worldly Tutor - You've got a pretty good sized creature toolbox. Eladamri's Call - Another solid tutor. Greater Good - This is a great card advantage engine for your deck since you play so many big creatures. It doesn't go well with Doran himself but aside from that the card is very good. Mirari's Wake - G/W staple. Allows you to cast your expensive creatures sooner. Lightning Greaves - Eldrazi are especially brutal with haste. The shroud is great at protecting Doran and other key creatures. Phyrexian Arena - Better than some of the other card draw you are playing.
Here's an equally sized list of cards that I feel are lackluster:
Mangara of Corondor - In this color combination I feel you have access to superior removal. Harmonize - Just not good enough in a deck running black. Terastodon - Increasing your tutors allows you to cut down on redundancy. I don't think you need Dumbo and Woodfall Primus but if you like Dumbo you could alternatively cut Primus. Profane Command - Costs too much for the effect and it's dead early. Promise of Power - Too color intensive, if I'm paying 3 black mana for a draw spell in a 3 color deck I'll just run Necropotence. Martial Coup - Very expensive, Deed is cheaper and better. Karn Liberated - Karn is great in decks that have glaring weaknesses like monoblack not dealing with enchantments/artifacts and monogreen dealing with creature. A rock color deck doesn't have any weaknesses it needs Karn's help with so he's just overcosted removal. Artisan of Kozilek - Too much mana, you have plenty of beatsticks and if you need more reanimation just run Karmic Guide. Avatar of Woe - Such a confused card, a 6/5 fear creature that doesn't want to attack? I think this card is highly overrated. Cloudthresher - Quadruple green is brutal. Silklash Spider is much more appropriate if fliers are an issue.
Donald's suggestions are quite good. I will offer my own as well:
I actually like Profane Command ALOT in my own teneb deck. Versatility is important but also it offers an alternative kill condition through direct life loss. Especially considering that your primary win condition is through combat damage which is sometimes difficult to do.
Forbidding watchtower - cut this it makes your list look embarrassing - edit: I guess with doran it's not bad but i'm just not a big fan of vanilla man lands...
One last pro tip - while you say that you are not a fan of enchantments, enchantments are money! Some good ones to include: mirari's wake, survival of the fittest, mana reflection, phyrexian arena, the list goes on!
edit2: here's the stuff I really like in your deck (sort of stuff that I have in my own teneb!): Identity Crisis - just sicko!, Garruk & Sorin as the only planeswalkers (assuming you cut karn, donald's suggestion was on point), hornet queen is also very cool although not quite as good as avenger!, just overall a nice list. Looks fun to play. Oh and you may consider darksteel ingot - stays on the board no matter how often you wipe it!
That's very much, both of you. I am very grateful for the help. I've considered both of your ideas, and have come these conclusions:
1) The Problem With Enchantments: While I'm not trying to undersell the power of a good enchantment, in my experience, board wipe tends to happen A LOT in multi-player formats...especially in EDH. Because of this, I usually find enchantments to be a bit too 'clunky' and slow for my taste. I normally tend to prefer cards that have immediate effects on the board. The benefit I get from having my deck set up like this is that board wipe really doesn't hurt me as much as it would my opponents, since the only thing that I would normally lose is creatures (and maybe the occasional Planeswalker).
2) The Tutor Problem: I understand that there are not a lot of tutors in the deck aside from Fierce Empath, Rune-Scarred Demon, and Demonic Tutor, but there is actually a good reason for this. You see, in most cases, because the deck is 'loaded' with nothing but cards that provide answers to almost any threat on the board, I typically always have at least 'one' thing in my hand that can fix a problem. Cards like Mangara of Corondor and Karn Liberated both provide me with versatile card removal for just about anything; furthermore, the deck really doesn't use in combo pieces to win. Most of the cards can actually function independently without any need for other cards to make them good.
3) The Lackluster Cards: I won't deny that Cloudthresher is mainly in the deck for the 'surprise' factor of dropping a huge fattie with flash (but his board wiping potential is also rather nice as well). Both him and Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni are very good at catching my opponents off guard. Also, I've never really had much of a mana issue with this deck, as almost all my lands produce the colors I need, and I have tons of methods of searching out the right land combination for the cards.
4) Stuff That I Could Consider: I will admit, Mirari's Wake does look very tempting now, but I'm not so sure about Cabal Coffers (I don't think I have that many swamps). Sun Titan also seems like a good choice too, as does Karmic Guide and maybe even Reveillark too. Darksteel Ingot is also another great possibility.
But yea...thanks again guys for the help so far. I'll try playtesting the deck around a bit and see what happens. However, if you have any further advice, or would like to discuss some of the points I've made, feel free to make another reply. Also, if u have a deck that you'd like me too look at, just let me know.
The cards I took out really didn't seem to have as much utility as the cards that I"m putting in. Additionally, I'm also looking for good replacements for Forbidding Watchtower as well. As always, any further help or advice is appreciated.
Mindslaver appreciates Glissa, the Traitor who is first strike AND death touch even without it. You take their turn and force them to attack you with their biggest guy, which glissa blocks and gets you back mind slaver. It's not so nasty in multiplayer but definitely fun.
I have to reiterate Sun Titan. It is an ENGINE all by it's lonesome.
You might consider a voltron sub theme. There are so many fun equipments to play with.
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Doran, The Destroyer
"Each year that passes rings you inwardly with memory and might. Wield your heart, and the world will tremble."- Doran
1x Doran, the Siege Tower
Creatures: (33)
1x Acidic Slime
1x Angel of Despair
1x Archon of Justice
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Brutalizer Exarch
1x Deadwood Treefolk
1x Duplicant
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Grave Titan
1x Hornet Queen
1x Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1x Karmic Guide
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Krosan Tusker
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Necrotic Sliver
1x Pelakka Wurm
1x Primeval Titan
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Sunblast Angel
1x Terastodon
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Yavimaya Elder
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Beast Within
1x Mortify
1x Path to Exile
1x Putrefy
1x Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts: (5)
1x Batterskull
1x Mimic Vat
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
Sorcery: (15)
1x Akroma's Vengeance
1x Austere Command
1x Beacon of Unrest
1x Curse of the Cabal
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Hallowed Burial
1x Harmonize
1x Identity Crisis
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Martial Coup
1x Planar Cleansing
1x Profane Command
1x Promise of Power
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Vindicate
Planeswalkers: (3)
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Karn Liberated
1x Sorin Markov
Lands: (38)
1x Command Tower
1x Fetid Heath
1x Forbidding Watchtower
5x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Krosan Verge
1x Marsh Flats
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
5x Plains
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Strip Mine
5x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple Garden
1x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Vivid Grove
1x Vivid Marsh
1x Vivid Meadow
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Bastion
The Theme: The goal of this deck is use the best removal and destruction cards possible, killing off my opponents key cards, while using powerful creatures to secure the game in my favor. This deck has worked in both 1 v 1 and multiplayer, but I'm always trying to improve it.
The General: While I understand that Doran might not be considered the best general for a deck like this, I personally like him because of how aggressive he can in almost any game. Dropping him turn 3 is something that happens in almost every game, and he really does put a lot of pressure on my opponent. He's also an amazing defensive card against other aggro edh decks, which is why I favor him over most other Generals of his color.
Possible Inclusions:
Pernicious Deed (I'm not a fan of enchantments, but I think this would be good for the deck)
Magus of the Disk (I normally prefer immediate wrath effects, but I know that this guy would be a good addition as well)
Nevinyrral's Disk (Same as the Magus, but not sure what to take out for it, and I also have a lot of wrath effects already)
Shriekmaw (I hate the fact that against a mono black deck, he's pretty much worthless...which is why I haven't added him in the deck yet)
Oblation (I know a lot of people say this card is good, but honestly, I hate the idea of letting my opponent draw two cards from it)
Masked Admirers (Again, good card, but not sure what to take out for it)
Mindslaver (Didn't have room for it, and wasn't sure if it fit the theme anyway)
Note: I am always open to the idea of including other cards, but these were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.
Hidden Gems:
Hornet Queen- I really am amazed that so few people use this girl. I mean, she's almost like an Avenger of Zendikar when you consider how much board presence she provides. In addition, putting her on a Mimic Vat is just sick.
Curse of the Cabal- Again, staying true to the theme of the deck, this particular sorcery is just devastating in EDH (even when it is suspended). The only real weakness it has is being countered, or worse, redirected back at you. Other then that, it helps kill more stuff, which is the overall goal of the deck anyway.
Final Thoughts: If anyone can sell me on Pernicious Deed and Oblation, I'm all for it, but frankly, I really am just looking for any good advice as to how to make my deck better (and please, don't suggest MASS land destruction...that's just no fun). I keep feeling that I might have too many 'wrath' effects, and my mana curve is kinda messed up due to the fact that I hardly have any 4 or 5 drops. However, the deck is HIGHLY versatile at dealing with almost any situation/deck I've put up against it (though sadly, I keep feeling that it needs a little more lifegain as well). Anyways, please let me know what u think, or if you can tell me how it can be improved. Thanks again.
The main thing that stood out to me was the lack of tutors and enchantments. Increasing the number of tutors greatly improves the consistency of the deck and allows you to run a more robust toolbox and less redundancy. There are a few other card choices that I think could be improved as well. My suggested adds in no particular order:
Aura Shards - Fantastic in a creature heavy deck.
Sun Titan - I usually recur land with him but sometimes he hits something cool like Mimic Vat. He can also loop Pernicious Deed repeatedly.
Vampiric Tutor - Self explanatory.
Worldly Tutor - You've got a pretty good sized creature toolbox.
Eladamri's Call - Another solid tutor.
Greater Good - This is a great card advantage engine for your deck since you play so many big creatures. It doesn't go well with Doran himself but aside from that the card is very good.
Mirari's Wake - G/W staple. Allows you to cast your expensive creatures sooner.
Lightning Greaves - Eldrazi are especially brutal with haste. The shroud is great at protecting Doran and other key creatures.
Phyrexian Arena - Better than some of the other card draw you are playing.
Here's an equally sized list of cards that I feel are lackluster:
Mangara of Corondor - In this color combination I feel you have access to superior removal.
Harmonize - Just not good enough in a deck running black.
Terastodon - Increasing your tutors allows you to cut down on redundancy. I don't think you need Dumbo and Woodfall Primus but if you like Dumbo you could alternatively cut Primus.
Profane Command - Costs too much for the effect and it's dead early.
Promise of Power - Too color intensive, if I'm paying 3 black mana for a draw spell in a 3 color deck I'll just run Necropotence.
Martial Coup - Very expensive, Deed is cheaper and better.
Karn Liberated - Karn is great in decks that have glaring weaknesses like monoblack not dealing with enchantments/artifacts and monogreen dealing with creature. A rock color deck doesn't have any weaknesses it needs Karn's help with so he's just overcosted removal.
Artisan of Kozilek - Too much mana, you have plenty of beatsticks and if you need more reanimation just run Karmic Guide.
Avatar of Woe - Such a confused card, a 6/5 fear creature that doesn't want to attack? I think this card is highly overrated.
Cloudthresher - Quadruple green is brutal. Silklash Spider is much more appropriate if fliers are an issue.
I don't think Oblation is very good.
I actually like Profane Command ALOT in my own teneb deck. Versatility is important but also it offers an alternative kill condition through direct life loss. Especially considering that your primary win condition is through combat damage which is sometimes difficult to do.
Also, Cabal Coffers is an absolute MUST include!
Forbidding watchtower - cut this it makes your list look embarrassing - edit: I guess with doran it's not bad but i'm just not a big fan of vanilla man lands...
One last pro tip - while you say that you are not a fan of enchantments, enchantments are money! Some good ones to include: mirari's wake, survival of the fittest, mana reflection, phyrexian arena, the list goes on!
edit2: here's the stuff I really like in your deck (sort of stuff that I have in my own teneb!): Identity Crisis - just sicko!, Garruk & Sorin as the only planeswalkers (assuming you cut karn, donald's suggestion was on point), hornet queen is also very cool although not quite as good as avenger!, just overall a nice list. Looks fun to play. Oh and you may consider darksteel ingot - stays on the board no matter how often you wipe it!
1) The Problem With Enchantments: While I'm not trying to undersell the power of a good enchantment, in my experience, board wipe tends to happen A LOT in multi-player formats...especially in EDH. Because of this, I usually find enchantments to be a bit too 'clunky' and slow for my taste. I normally tend to prefer cards that have immediate effects on the board. The benefit I get from having my deck set up like this is that board wipe really doesn't hurt me as much as it would my opponents, since the only thing that I would normally lose is creatures (and maybe the occasional Planeswalker).
2) The Tutor Problem: I understand that there are not a lot of tutors in the deck aside from Fierce Empath, Rune-Scarred Demon, and Demonic Tutor, but there is actually a good reason for this. You see, in most cases, because the deck is 'loaded' with nothing but cards that provide answers to almost any threat on the board, I typically always have at least 'one' thing in my hand that can fix a problem. Cards like Mangara of Corondor and Karn Liberated both provide me with versatile card removal for just about anything; furthermore, the deck really doesn't use in combo pieces to win. Most of the cards can actually function independently without any need for other cards to make them good.
3) The Lackluster Cards: I won't deny that Cloudthresher is mainly in the deck for the 'surprise' factor of dropping a huge fattie with flash (but his board wiping potential is also rather nice as well). Both him and Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni are very good at catching my opponents off guard. Also, I've never really had much of a mana issue with this deck, as almost all my lands produce the colors I need, and I have tons of methods of searching out the right land combination for the cards.
4) Stuff That I Could Consider: I will admit, Mirari's Wake does look very tempting now, but I'm not so sure about Cabal Coffers (I don't think I have that many swamps). Sun Titan also seems like a good choice too, as does Karmic Guide and maybe even Reveillark too. Darksteel Ingot is also another great possibility.
But yea...thanks again guys for the help so far. I'll try playtesting the deck around a bit and see what happens. However, if you have any further advice, or would like to discuss some of the points I've made, feel free to make another reply. Also, if u have a deck that you'd like me too look at, just let me know.
As always, more advice is always welcome.
Made a few changes to the deck, and here's the explanations why:
Cloudthresher replaced with Brutalizer Exarch
Avatar of Woe replaced with Karmic Guide
Treetop Village replaced with Volrath's Stronghold
The cards I took out really didn't seem to have as much utility as the cards that I"m putting in. Additionally, I'm also looking for good replacements for Forbidding Watchtower as well. As always, any further help or advice is appreciated.
Mindslaver appreciates Glissa, the Traitor who is first strike AND death touch even without it. You take their turn and force them to attack you with their biggest guy, which glissa blocks and gets you back mind slaver. It's not so nasty in multiplayer but definitely fun.
I have to reiterate Sun Titan. It is an ENGINE all by it's lonesome.
You might consider a voltron sub theme. There are so many fun equipments to play with.