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I am so glad these threads get separated. Thanks mods for listening to the advice in the forum structuring threads.
Let's get the ball rolling with one card that absolutely needs to be unbanned:
Unban Ancestral Vision
The initial logic in banning this card made no sense, and now that the metagame has taken form, its banning is even more nonsensical. Most games do not even reach turn 5 in this metagame, and that only matters in the 40% of games where you get the card in your opening hand. Why does this card help at all? It offers incentive for control players to go all in on the early turns against combo. Spell Pierce, Thoughtseize, Spell Snare, etc. A lot of the combo decks in this format will fold to that early pressure, but they are resilient such that they can revive if given time. AV prevents this from happening. It is especially critical against decks like Zoo. Control can hold the line against the initial onslaught, with spot and mass removal, alongside countermagic and discard. But on turn 5, you need to get some good stuff back in your hand, or you are going to be facing down the legendarily lethal topdecks of Zoo. AV gives control this capability.
Overall, AV alone is not going to make a big splash on control, but it will give control players strong incentive to return to their archetype of choice. This will help re-balance the metagame.
I don't really have any problems with the current list being too restrictive. Although some cards are way more suspect than others, I appreciate the fact that they are trying to make an entirely new format rather than just bringing back pre-rotation extended.
I don't see unbanning of cards like Jitte or Ancestral Vision having a destructive effect on the format, but then again I don't really mind them being banned. It makes modern a little more open to exploration. Obviously changes to the banned list have to be made. Adding Emrakul, Glimmerpost and/or maybe even Rite of Flame would go a long way in solving some of the issues IMO. And simply releasing Jitte or Ancestaral Vision back into the wild would probably do absolutely nothing in combating the current top decks.
Regardless, I don't think anything will be unbanned so quickly. It would look horrible, HORRIBLE, if they unbanned certain cards only to have to go back and re-ban them during the next B&R announcement. While for certain cards that risk is low, the format is still brand new so you never know. But the benefit of unbanning the right card doesn't come close to the damage that would be caused by unbanning the wrong one.
Unban chrome mox so that control can use the best 3 control cards in the format. trinket mage, thirst for knowledge, gifts ungiven.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Unban chrome mox so that control can use the best 3 control cards in the format. trinket mage, thirst for knowledge, gifts ungiven.
I fully understand the historical argument for unbanning Chrome Mox, and I understand that it has been a pillar of control in the recent Extended seasons. Even those "combo" decks that used it were still very control oriented, and a lot of combo builds are unable to afford the card disadvantage that Mox entails.
But all of that said, there is no way on earth that Wizards is going to unban an accelerator in a combo-heavy metagame. This card theoretically speeds up combo by a whole turn. A lot of Storm decks could be built to take the card disadvantage just to go off a turn earlier. They already want the format to be at turn 4, and this is proving problematic in practice. Even if they downgrade it to a turn 3.5 format, Wizards is still going to be extremely hesitant to unban a card that theoretically speeds up a combo by a full turn. There is a nuanced historical, evidence-based argument that will show Chrome Mox to be a safe card. But there is an obvious, in-your-face argument that Mox is just another combo engine. I fear that this argument will prevail in the end, and Wizards is not going to go for it. This card will stay banned for a while.
I fully understand the historical argument for unbanning Chrome Mox, and I understand that it has been a pillar of control in the recent Extended seasons. Even those "combo" decks that used it were still very control oriented, and a lot of combo builds are unable to afford the card disadvantage that Mox entails.
But all of that said, there is no way on earth that Wizards is going to unban an accelerator in a combo-heavy metagame. This card theoretically speeds up combo by a whole turn. A lot of Storm decks could be built to take the card disadvantage just to go off a turn earlier. They already want the format to be at turn 4, and this is proving problematic in practice. Even if they downgrade it to a turn 3.5 format, Wizards is still going to be extremely hesitant to unban a card that theoretically speeds up a combo by a full turn. There is a nuanced historical, evidence-based argument that will show Chrome Mox to be a safe card. But there is an obvious, in-your-face argument that Mox is just another combo engine. I fear that this argument will prevail in the end, and Wizards is not going to go for it. This card will stay banned for a while.
-ktkenshinx-
storm decks won't be able to run it. No all in combo decks could run it due to the loss of cards from hand. Storm needs as many cards as possible in their hand. what would they pitch to it a mana ritual? These decks are already capable of turn 1-2 wins, but if control came back that wouldn't be the case as much. Control cannot succeed in this meta without chrome mox, because it can't get out of the gates fast enough. By the time you get to 2 mana your opponents can already have you on the ropes.
This is where decks generally win. The slowest one has a degenerate engine that will never let control get ahead. The rest of them win before or as control begins to gain a foot hold 4-6 turns. Dropping that down to 3-6 while allowing counterspells, and other things(wrath) to drop earlier is really the only way a control deck can actually win in this meta.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
storm decks won't be able to run it. No all in combo decks could run it due to the loss of cards from hand. Storm needs as many cards as possible in their hand. what would they pitch to it a mana ritual? These decks are already capable of turn 1-2 wins, but if control came back that wouldn't be the case as much. Control cannot succeed in this meta without chrome mox, because it can't get out of the gates fast enough. By the time you get to 2 mana your opponents can already have you on the ropes
I might have been unclear in my post. I completely, 100% agree that the card is good in control and that combo does not need it right now (although Charbelcher would love it). My argument is that Wizards is not going to ban a card that theoretically goes into combo decks in a format that is already too fast. They use a lot of Legacy decks as a measuring stick for Modern. Given that Chrome Mox sees Legacy play more or less exclusively in combo (ANT, Belcher, SI, some builds of Enchantress/Painter's, etc.), Wizards is going to be very unlikely to unban this card.
And as to its usage in Modern, Chrome Mox is easily used in Twin. It speeds the deck up by a full turn, and Wizards can easily see that just by looking over Twin lists. It has a similar effect in other, less-played combo decks like Ad Nauseam.
I have been a vocal advocate for the unbanning of control cards and the banning of cards that hinder control. Mox, unfortunately, is not going to fall into the previous category. The card can and will help combo decks. It will also help control, yes. In the end, this boost it gives control is actually probably going to hurt the combo decks more than help them! But Wizards is dealing with a combo heavy format right now, and the last thing they want to do is risk more speed. It would take a bit of testing to prove that control would benefit from Mox more than combo, and I doubt they are going to do that. Because of this, Mox is going to stay banned. Would I like it unbanned? Yes. I like TFK based control deck (it is the best draw spell in the format for control, I would argue), and I like its addition to combo. But it is not going to happen because Wizards is going to view it differently: As a format threat.
Chrome Mox actually would help a slower, more controlling combo deck like Kiki-Twin, by letting it pitch a useless filter card when they have their combo, or pitching a redundant combo piece. They need to be at 4 mana to go off, so it now means they can go off any time after turn 2 instead of three, which is relevant for less interactive Aggro decks that WOTC wants the format to be filled with. It is also relevant since Gitaxian Probe is a card, and lets them see that it is 100 percent safe to go off.
I want Mox in the format, but they won't let it back in until Kik-Twin and combo is less of an issue.
I would unban Jace, the Mind Sculptor. It provides control decks a win condition as well as a source of card advantage. This will mean control decks packing disruption (hand, removal, counters) will finally have a reason to want to slow the game down. I think Ancestral Vision could come off too, but I don't think it is good enough, so it seems moot. AV was never a widely played control deck staple in older formats, it just recently took off in Legacy which is as different from Modern as Modern is to Standard.
Chrome Mox actually would help a slower, more controlling combo deck like Kiki-Twin, by letting it pitch a useless filter card when they have their combo, or pitching a redundant combo piece. They need to be at 4 mana to go off, so it now means they can go off any time after turn 2 instead of three, which is relevant for less interactive Aggro decks that WOTC wants the format to be filled with. It is also relevant since Gitaxian Probe is a card, and lets them see that it is 100 percent safe to go off.
I want Mox in the format, but they won't let it back in until Kik-Twin and combo is less of an issue.
I would unban Jace, the Mind Sculptor. It provides control decks a win condition as well as a source of card advantage. This will mean control decks packing disruption (hand, removal, counters) will finally have a reason to want to slow the game down. I think Ancestral Vision could come off too, but I don't think it is good enough, so it seems moot. AV was never a widely played control deck staple in older formats, it just recently took off in Legacy which is as different from Modern as Modern is to Standard.
Its the only way that control will stand a chance in this format though, even if 12post gets nixed. To unban jace would be a nice gesture, but it really won't have an impact on the meta since you can't really slow things down enough for him to survive more than the turn you play him. Same goes for AV.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
So in your way of thinking jace tms is not worthy the ban and
for that alone should be out of the list...
And we all know a.visions should come off
imho bitterblossom is not fast enough and maybe valakut
guys there are decks wining on turn 1-2 and we have a banlist full
of cards that does not make any sense.
Tbh even dredge can come out.its not fast enough and even if it
will mess up with sideboards it will help make a very very diverse format
I was just responding to a specific post here is what I would take of if I was the decision maker.
I could easily make valid arguments for every card on this list.
Dread Return is one that might even be worth of taking off depending on what ISD brings As it is a graveyard set, and something broken could come off of it, or the modern dredge deck could actually get faster than turn 4-5 on average.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I could easily make valid arguments for every card on this list.
Dread Return is one that might even be worth of taking off depending on what ISD brings As it is a graveyard set, and something broken could come off of it, or the modern dredge deck could actually get faster than turn 4-5 on average.
They will never let Valakut + Scapeshift in the format. It leads to a deck winning T4 out of nowhere. We have enought combo as is.
Jitte will never come off as it determines outcomes in it's own. Zoo vs Zoo will become who draws Jitte first.
Jace, AV, Blossom, Meek could all come off. Jace is too slow in a format where T4 is red zone areas. Blossom is dead. AV would be great for control. Meek combo is viable.
I think Dark Depths could come off as well (if they don't ban Cloudpost)
Sword of the Meek is one of the last cards I'd take off the list, remember Tezz foundary was a tier 1 deck in a format that's even faster than the current one since Hypergenesis, Dark Depths, Elves! and Dredge were all legal. The combo is too easy to assemble and too resilient (infact nothing sort of Leyline of the Void/Extirpate really shuts down the combo). I'd love to play the deck but it would just be too good.
As for Jitte, have you actually played the Zoo mirror with Jitte being legal? Yes its powerful but its not completely game deciding and most Zoo lists don't play more than one if any copies.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Sword of the Meek is one of the last cards I'd take off the list, remember Tezz foundary was a tier 1 deck in a format that's even faster than the current one since Hypergenesis, Dark Depths, Elves! and Dredge were all legal. The combo is too easy to assemble and too resilient (infact nothing sort of Leyline of the Void/Extirpate really shuts down the combo). I'd love to play the deck but it would just be too good.
As for Jitte, have you actually played the Zoo mirror with Jitte being legal? Yes its powerful but its not completely game deciding and most Zoo lists don't play more than one if any copies.
In a hyper aggro format as Modern (meaning Aggro decks have to win or be close to winning by T3-4), Jitte is very important. A Goyf swinging on T3-4 w/ a Jitte will more often decide a game then it won't. Jitte will also kill pretty much the Shoal.dec and hinder Affinity since a majority of their creatures have 1 toughness (outside of Ravager/Thopter/Frogmite).
I played Tezz, it's a good deck. However, a majority of the combo decks don't really care about your life total or how many 1/1 tokens you can generate. Their copying 12 point Banefires twice, their dropping Emrakul on T4-5, or their making infinite tokens on T4-5. Tezz usually doesn't see play until T4 (w/ ramp). So it's not that big of a danger.
storm decks won't be able to run it. No all in combo decks could run it due to the loss of cards from hand. Storm needs as many cards as possible in their hand. what would they pitch to it a mana ritual? These decks are already capable of turn 1-2 wins, but if control came back that wouldn't be the case as much. Control cannot succeed in this meta without chrome mox, because it can't get out of the gates fast enough. By the time you get to 2 mana your opponents can already have you on the ropes.
This is where decks generally win. The slowest one has a degenerate engine that will never let control get ahead. The rest of them win before or as control begins to gain a foot hold 4-6 turns. Dropping that down to 3-6 while allowing counterspells, and other things(wrath) to drop earlier is really the only way a control deck can actually win in this meta.
You are using a logical argument which is something that will have absolutely no impact on the DCI. Logic is the last thing they turn to when examining the B/R lists for constructed formats. I agree with ktkenshinx, there's no way they'll unban a mana accelerator in a combo-heavy environment.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
Nothing needs to be unbanned at the moment. I would much rather see more go on before anything comes off the list. Lets get to the point the meta is some what balanced before trying out cards that were previously thought banable.
In a hyper aggro format as Modern (meaning Aggro decks have to win or be close to winning by T3-4), Jitte is very important. A Goyf swinging on T3-4 w/ a Jitte will more often decide a game then it won't. Jitte will also kill pretty much the Shoal.dec and hinder Affinity since a majority of their creatures have 1 toughness (outside of Ravager/Thopter/Frogmite).
I played Tezz, it's a good deck. However, a majority of the combo decks don't really care about your life total or how many 1/1 tokens you can generate. Their copying 12 point Banefires twice, their dropping Emrakul on T4-5, or their making infinite tokens on T4-5. Tezz usually doesn't see play until T4 (w/ ramp). So it's not that big of a danger.
Jitte isn't actually good against Aggro decks though, it's too mana intensive you have to spend nearly two whole turns worth of mana before it actually does anything. If you are trying to kill by turn 4 then Jitte is mostly irrelevant.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
That wasn't the point of my post (using Jitte to win by T4). The point is when Zoo is at standoff cause both of them dropped 2-3 Kird/Lion and a Goyf/Nacatl. Which ever player drops the Jitte will win 9/10 times. Jitte would be a 1-2 in MD and most likely a 1-2 in the sb for mirror matchups.
Nothing needs to be unbanned at the moment. I would much rather see more go on before anything comes off the list. Lets get to the point the meta is some what balanced before trying out cards that were previously thought banable.
I disagree with this. Just because a metagame is more or less stable (which I do not think this one is anyway), does not mean that no cards need to be unbanned. Indeed, Legacy banning policy is all about unbanning cards in stable metagames just to shake things up. For example, the unbanning of Metalworker, Entomb, Mind Over Matter, Time Spiral, etc. all came at times where the metagame was pretty stable and certain decks were consistently posting top results. Wizards' rationale was that the unbanning of these cards would not harm the metagame, and for the most part, they were correct. Metalworker and Time Spiral did make impacts on the metagame, but they did not break it. They only increased deck diversity.
In Modern's case, the chief problem is a lack of control. A corollary to this problem is an abundance of fast combo, but the originator of this situation is that control is basically absent. So unbannings should currently be focused on trying to bring control back into the metagame. Part of this is just player perception; people think that because control was not played at PT Philly that it is completely unviable. I personally disagree. In my testing, I have consistently been able to find decklists that can beat combo and hold their ground against Aggro. Twelvepost? It's an ugly matchup, but thankfully Twelvepost is not doing that well these days.
Unbannings should offer control players incentive for switching back to control. That means giving them tools to make better decks. Ancestral Vision is one such tool. It allows you to play an aggressive, counter/discard heavy early game without running out of steam once you hit the mid and late game. It is particularly awesome in Merfolk, a deck that has real potential to reign in fast combo.
Chrome Mox? Yes, it is good in control, and yes, it would help control. But it has historically also been used in some of the most broken and speedy combo decks in Eternal format history, and Wizards is not just going to ignore that. It will probably be the factor that tips the unbanning blessing away from Mox.
That wasn't the point of my post (using Jitte to win by T4). The point is when Zoo is at standoff cause both of them dropped 2-3 Kird/Lion and a Goyf/Nacatl. Which ever player drops the Jitte will win 9/10 times. Jitte would be a 1-2 in MD and most likely a 1-2 in the sb for mirror matchups.
Elspeth also breaks open the Zoo mirror, should we ban her too? I'd actually argue that Elspeth is much stronger than Jitte in the mirror since it can literally end the game on resolution.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I disagree about visions. I dont think it would do much to help control as the format sits. I do think control has the pieces to build control decks now, most just didnt know the meta. Now that the meta is known you will see more control coming to the front. Lets not forget if we take the draft part of Philly out of the mix we would have control decks quite close to the top 8 cut off. The problem with mox is it would help combo as much as it does control.
I really feel the move is to relax and see how it plays out the next few tournys. The way Wotc has dealt with ban lists has worked. Until it doesnt I think we should trust in the way Wotc deals with the bannings nd unbannings.
I think Jace TMS would do more for Control than Visions would, but I really hate Jace, which is one of the reasons I like this format.
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I really don't see Jace as playable in the format as is. T4 is a crucial turn in the Meta and if you are tapping out that turn to play Jace, you are setting yourself up for trouble.
Pyro - doesn't care about Jace
Splinter Twin - same
G12 - same
Zoo - too fast for Jace to matter
Affinity - same as Zoo
Melira - might not like Jace
They will never let Valakut + Scapeshift in the format. It leads to a deck winning T4 out of nowhere. We have enought combo as is.
Jitte will never come off as it determines outcomes in it's own. Zoo vs Zoo will become who draws Jitte first.
Jace, AV, Blossom, Meek could all come off. Jace is too slow in a format where T4 is red zone areas. Blossom is dead. AV would be great for control. Meek combo is viable.
I think Dark Depths could come off as well (if they don't ban Cloudpost)
I don't understand what the problem with valakut is? It is a turn 4-6 combo deck that folds to any other combo deck,12post,LD,Gaddok teeg, Meddling mage,Any counterspell,ect,ect,ect.
Jitte wouldn't even see main deck play in zoo. It was always more a control tool to get more millage out of vendilion clique and trinket mage.
The Meek combo as its called is hardly a combo. You essentially don't win until really late, but it gives control decks a way to win that does get killed by path to exile, while also allowing synergy by making thirst for knowledge playable.
Dark depths should never be unbanned, That is one of the hardest combo decks to play against ever because they run counters,discard, and card draw. Then they just when early or wreck your hand and win after that.
Sword of the Meek is one of the last cards I'd take off the list, remember Tezz foundary was a tier 1 deck in a format that's even faster than the current one since Hypergenesis, Dark Depths, Elves! and Dredge were all legal. The combo is too easy to assemble and too resilient (infact nothing sort of Leyline of the Void/Extirpate really shuts down the combo). I'd love to play the deck but it would just be too good.
I don't understand how its so broken. If you let your opponent get to 5-6 turn which is when it will actually start then you should lose anyways. It just gives control decks a way to win that doesn't die to a path to exile. I played the UW thopter back in the day, and it was a decent deck, but half the blue cards in the format weren't banned at the time, and believe it or not the format was a bit slower because the combo decks had to respect the control decks and the aggro decks had to respect Big Zoo.
I think Jace TMS would do more for Control than Visions would, but I really hate Jace, which is one of the reasons I like this format.
Jace wouldn't even see play in this meta. It is nothing but a 4cmc sorcery speed brainstorm against ever deck in the format. Believe it or not there is a reason why he sees play in legacy.
1. Free counterspells allow you to essentially never tap out although you don't have mana open which makes the sorcery speed less of a hassle.
2. Most combo decks have to respect conterspells so they have protection making them slightly slow and a bit less consistent.
3. Blue has good cards, and cards that speed up getting to 4 mana without putting you behind in tempo.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Um, Ancestral Visions, Mental Misstep, and Jace, the Mindsculpter were not in Tezz Foundary so I don't see your point, none of the blue cards currently banned have any effect on Tezz Foundary.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Um, Ancestral Visions, Mental Misstep, and Jace, the Mindsculpter were not in Tezz Foundary so I don't see your point, none of the blue cards currently banned have any effect on Tezz Foundary.
well I count chrome mox as a blue card:)
Not having it makes thirst really bad, not to mention any control since every control deck besides teachings ran it and some teachings list ran it.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson
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There are two Ban List Discussion Threads. The other is [Discussion] Cards That Should be Banned in Modern.
Banned List Discussion outside of these two threads is Prohibited and will be Infracted!
For reference the original Ban List Thread is here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=351206
Let's get the ball rolling with one card that absolutely needs to be unbanned:
Unban Ancestral Vision
The initial logic in banning this card made no sense, and now that the metagame has taken form, its banning is even more nonsensical. Most games do not even reach turn 5 in this metagame, and that only matters in the 40% of games where you get the card in your opening hand. Why does this card help at all? It offers incentive for control players to go all in on the early turns against combo. Spell Pierce, Thoughtseize, Spell Snare, etc. A lot of the combo decks in this format will fold to that early pressure, but they are resilient such that they can revive if given time. AV prevents this from happening. It is especially critical against decks like Zoo. Control can hold the line against the initial onslaught, with spot and mass removal, alongside countermagic and discard. But on turn 5, you need to get some good stuff back in your hand, or you are going to be facing down the legendarily lethal topdecks of Zoo. AV gives control this capability.
Overall, AV alone is not going to make a big splash on control, but it will give control players strong incentive to return to their archetype of choice. This will help re-balance the metagame.
-ktkenshinx-
I don't see unbanning of cards like Jitte or Ancestral Vision having a destructive effect on the format, but then again I don't really mind them being banned. It makes modern a little more open to exploration. Obviously changes to the banned list have to be made. Adding Emrakul, Glimmerpost and/or maybe even Rite of Flame would go a long way in solving some of the issues IMO. And simply releasing Jitte or Ancestaral Vision back into the wild would probably do absolutely nothing in combating the current top decks.
Regardless, I don't think anything will be unbanned so quickly. It would look horrible, HORRIBLE, if they unbanned certain cards only to have to go back and re-ban them during the next B&R announcement. While for certain cards that risk is low, the format is still brand new so you never know. But the benefit of unbanning the right card doesn't come close to the damage that would be caused by unbanning the wrong one.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I fully understand the historical argument for unbanning Chrome Mox, and I understand that it has been a pillar of control in the recent Extended seasons. Even those "combo" decks that used it were still very control oriented, and a lot of combo builds are unable to afford the card disadvantage that Mox entails.
But all of that said, there is no way on earth that Wizards is going to unban an accelerator in a combo-heavy metagame. This card theoretically speeds up combo by a whole turn. A lot of Storm decks could be built to take the card disadvantage just to go off a turn earlier. They already want the format to be at turn 4, and this is proving problematic in practice. Even if they downgrade it to a turn 3.5 format, Wizards is still going to be extremely hesitant to unban a card that theoretically speeds up a combo by a full turn. There is a nuanced historical, evidence-based argument that will show Chrome Mox to be a safe card. But there is an obvious, in-your-face argument that Mox is just another combo engine. I fear that this argument will prevail in the end, and Wizards is not going to go for it. This card will stay banned for a while.
-ktkenshinx-
storm decks won't be able to run it. No all in combo decks could run it due to the loss of cards from hand. Storm needs as many cards as possible in their hand. what would they pitch to it a mana ritual? These decks are already capable of turn 1-2 wins, but if control came back that wouldn't be the case as much. Control cannot succeed in this meta without chrome mox, because it can't get out of the gates fast enough. By the time you get to 2 mana your opponents can already have you on the ropes.
Storm 1-5
Zoo 3-5
Kiki-twin 4-6
12post 3-7
infect 2-4
This is where decks generally win. The slowest one has a degenerate engine that will never let control get ahead. The rest of them win before or as control begins to gain a foot hold 4-6 turns. Dropping that down to 3-6 while allowing counterspells, and other things(wrath) to drop earlier is really the only way a control deck can actually win in this meta.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I might have been unclear in my post. I completely, 100% agree that the card is good in control and that combo does not need it right now (although Charbelcher would love it). My argument is that Wizards is not going to ban a card that theoretically goes into combo decks in a format that is already too fast. They use a lot of Legacy decks as a measuring stick for Modern. Given that Chrome Mox sees Legacy play more or less exclusively in combo (ANT, Belcher, SI, some builds of Enchantress/Painter's, etc.), Wizards is going to be very unlikely to unban this card.
And as to its usage in Modern, Chrome Mox is easily used in Twin. It speeds the deck up by a full turn, and Wizards can easily see that just by looking over Twin lists. It has a similar effect in other, less-played combo decks like Ad Nauseam.
I have been a vocal advocate for the unbanning of control cards and the banning of cards that hinder control. Mox, unfortunately, is not going to fall into the previous category. The card can and will help combo decks. It will also help control, yes. In the end, this boost it gives control is actually probably going to hurt the combo decks more than help them! But Wizards is dealing with a combo heavy format right now, and the last thing they want to do is risk more speed. It would take a bit of testing to prove that control would benefit from Mox more than combo, and I doubt they are going to do that. Because of this, Mox is going to stay banned. Would I like it unbanned? Yes. I like TFK based control deck (it is the best draw spell in the format for control, I would argue), and I like its addition to combo. But it is not going to happen because Wizards is going to view it differently: As a format threat.
-ktkenshinx-
I want Mox in the format, but they won't let it back in until Kik-Twin and combo is less of an issue.
I would unban Jace, the Mind Sculptor. It provides control decks a win condition as well as a source of card advantage. This will mean control decks packing disruption (hand, removal, counters) will finally have a reason to want to slow the game down. I think Ancestral Vision could come off too, but I don't think it is good enough, so it seems moot. AV was never a widely played control deck staple in older formats, it just recently took off in Legacy which is as different from Modern as Modern is to Standard.
Its the only way that control will stand a chance in this format though, even if 12post gets nixed. To unban jace would be a nice gesture, but it really won't have an impact on the meta since you can't really slow things down enough for him to survive more than the turn you play him. Same goes for AV.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I was just responding to a specific post here is what I would take of if I was the decision maker.
I could easily make valid arguments for every card on this list.
Dread Return is one that might even be worth of taking off depending on what ISD brings As it is a graveyard set, and something broken could come off of it, or the modern dredge deck could actually get faster than turn 4-5 on average.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
They will never let Valakut + Scapeshift in the format. It leads to a deck winning T4 out of nowhere. We have enought combo as is.
Jitte will never come off as it determines outcomes in it's own. Zoo vs Zoo will become who draws Jitte first.
Jace, AV, Blossom, Meek could all come off. Jace is too slow in a format where T4 is red zone areas. Blossom is dead. AV would be great for control. Meek combo is viable.
I think Dark Depths could come off as well (if they don't ban Cloudpost)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
As for Jitte, have you actually played the Zoo mirror with Jitte being legal? Yes its powerful but its not completely game deciding and most Zoo lists don't play more than one if any copies.
In a hyper aggro format as Modern (meaning Aggro decks have to win or be close to winning by T3-4), Jitte is very important. A Goyf swinging on T3-4 w/ a Jitte will more often decide a game then it won't. Jitte will also kill pretty much the Shoal.dec and hinder Affinity since a majority of their creatures have 1 toughness (outside of Ravager/Thopter/Frogmite).
I played Tezz, it's a good deck. However, a majority of the combo decks don't really care about your life total or how many 1/1 tokens you can generate. Their copying 12 point Banefires twice, their dropping Emrakul on T4-5, or their making infinite tokens on T4-5. Tezz usually doesn't see play until T4 (w/ ramp). So it's not that big of a danger.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
You are using a logical argument which is something that will have absolutely no impact on the DCI. Logic is the last thing they turn to when examining the B/R lists for constructed formats. I agree with ktkenshinx, there's no way they'll unban a mana accelerator in a combo-heavy environment.
Jitte isn't actually good against Aggro decks though, it's too mana intensive you have to spend nearly two whole turns worth of mana before it actually does anything. If you are trying to kill by turn 4 then Jitte is mostly irrelevant.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
I disagree with this. Just because a metagame is more or less stable (which I do not think this one is anyway), does not mean that no cards need to be unbanned. Indeed, Legacy banning policy is all about unbanning cards in stable metagames just to shake things up. For example, the unbanning of Metalworker, Entomb, Mind Over Matter, Time Spiral, etc. all came at times where the metagame was pretty stable and certain decks were consistently posting top results. Wizards' rationale was that the unbanning of these cards would not harm the metagame, and for the most part, they were correct. Metalworker and Time Spiral did make impacts on the metagame, but they did not break it. They only increased deck diversity.
In Modern's case, the chief problem is a lack of control. A corollary to this problem is an abundance of fast combo, but the originator of this situation is that control is basically absent. So unbannings should currently be focused on trying to bring control back into the metagame. Part of this is just player perception; people think that because control was not played at PT Philly that it is completely unviable. I personally disagree. In my testing, I have consistently been able to find decklists that can beat combo and hold their ground against Aggro. Twelvepost? It's an ugly matchup, but thankfully Twelvepost is not doing that well these days.
Unbannings should offer control players incentive for switching back to control. That means giving them tools to make better decks. Ancestral Vision is one such tool. It allows you to play an aggressive, counter/discard heavy early game without running out of steam once you hit the mid and late game. It is particularly awesome in Merfolk, a deck that has real potential to reign in fast combo.
Chrome Mox? Yes, it is good in control, and yes, it would help control. But it has historically also been used in some of the most broken and speedy combo decks in Eternal format history, and Wizards is not just going to ignore that. It will probably be the factor that tips the unbanning blessing away from Mox.
-ktkenshinx-
Elspeth also breaks open the Zoo mirror, should we ban her too? I'd actually argue that Elspeth is much stronger than Jitte in the mirror since it can literally end the game on resolution.
I really feel the move is to relax and see how it plays out the next few tournys. The way Wotc has dealt with ban lists has worked. Until it doesnt I think we should trust in the way Wotc deals with the bannings nd unbannings.
Pyro - doesn't care about Jace
Splinter Twin - same
G12 - same
Zoo - too fast for Jace to matter
Affinity - same as Zoo
Melira - might not like Jace
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
I don't understand what the problem with valakut is? It is a turn 4-6 combo deck that folds to any other combo deck,12post,LD,Gaddok teeg, Meddling mage,Any counterspell,ect,ect,ect.
Jitte wouldn't even see main deck play in zoo. It was always more a control tool to get more millage out of vendilion clique and trinket mage.
The Meek combo as its called is hardly a combo. You essentially don't win until really late, but it gives control decks a way to win that does get killed by path to exile, while also allowing synergy by making thirst for knowledge playable.
Dark depths should never be unbanned, That is one of the hardest combo decks to play against ever because they run counters,discard, and card draw. Then they just when early or wreck your hand and win after that.
I don't understand how its so broken. If you let your opponent get to 5-6 turn which is when it will actually start then you should lose anyways. It just gives control decks a way to win that doesn't die to a path to exile. I played the UW thopter back in the day, and it was a decent deck, but half the blue cards in the format weren't banned at the time, and believe it or not the format was a bit slower because the combo decks had to respect the control decks and the aggro decks had to respect Big Zoo.
Jace wouldn't even see play in this meta. It is nothing but a 4cmc sorcery speed brainstorm against ever deck in the format. Believe it or not there is a reason why he sees play in legacy.
1. Free counterspells allow you to essentially never tap out although you don't have mana open which makes the sorcery speed less of a hassle.
2. Most combo decks have to respect conterspells so they have protection making them slightly slow and a bit less consistent.
3. Blue has good cards, and cards that speed up getting to 4 mana without putting you behind in tempo.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
well I count chrome mox as a blue card:)
Not having it makes thirst really bad, not to mention any control since every control deck besides teachings ran it and some teachings list ran it.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson