Ascension really is a bombo with storm. One extra copy of each spell seems good, but it doesn't increase your storm count any, so you still need swath and 5 other spells before grapeshot becomes lethal.
If you want to try and make the kill at lower storm counts, pack burn spells. Swath, double lightning bolt, grapeshot is 22 damage.
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In my opinion, in the right list, Ascension can be WinCon 5-8 after Swath, but you really have to squeeze room for things like 1xBanefire. Also, decks with Ascension get more benefit from Serum Visions than straight up Swath.
I also think Ascension is kind of slow. But having 8 cards in your deck that you can dig to win the game is better than only 4 (Swath.) It would depend however on your deck was built and what blue cards you decided to run.
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Ascension seems a bit win more to me. To add it, you have to squeeze out either A) digging or B) rituals. Although you have more, slower wincons, you don't get swath/shot as often for lack of digs. It seems unnecessary on the whole, because you usually can get the combo w/o ascension with 12 pieces of draw/filter in the deck by turn 4.
I don't think Pyromancer Ascension should be compared directly to Swath. Yes both win by "going off" by cantriping and ritualing up a storm (lol pun) and finishing with grapeshot, banefire, or the like. The difference is I think Ascension sacrifices a small amount of explosiveness for a bit more consistency. essentially, if you are playing swath and your kill gets conclusively dealt with (mindbreak trap, trickbind), you are pretty much done if you can't counter it, because you can't ever really get a full hand again because of swath's discard ability. Without a full hand of cards, your chances of going off are slim to none. In contrast, if ascension fails to go off, it usually is left with a hand full of cantrips and an active ascension or two, and thus is able to try again next turn, most likely with even better odds of going off on that turn due to mana up with active ascensions to begin the turn with.
I'd imagine (and this is purely theoretical) that Ascension would have a slightly better matchup against control, as it doesn't roll over and die once its first attempt at going off gets dealt with.
As far as Swath-dedicated lists go, I think Ascension is win more in those lists. You shouldn't really need it, it just seems like a distraction. I think they both belong in separate deck lists, both of which are equally viable.
(note: all above is based on no evidence other than personal opinion. Do not take as proof of anything)
As far as Swath-dedicated lists go, I think Ascension is win more in those lists. You shouldn't really need it, it just seems like a distraction. I think they both belong in separate deck lists, both of which are equally viable.
Exactly. Ascension and Swath-Storm are two completely different decks, with different gameplans. I don't think you can put both in the same list and be playing an optimal deck.
I've got a list for Ascension in my sig, which is pretty much an exact copy of the list posted on SCG a few days before PT Philly, with the card choices explained, so there is that.
What do you guys think of this alternate win condition for the deck? When all else fails, you can just burn them to death with doubled Lightning Bolt or Red Sun Zenith.
I am a beginner here so if this is an obvious question I apologize, but what is, generally speaking, the difference in build between a storm deck build made for pyromancer ascension vs a storm deck that uses a different engine. What pros does pyromancer have, and is its con slowed down speed?, or is there more cons then just that?
There are no cons to using Ascnesion. Very few decks run mainboard enchantent removal (Jund, and some Pod variants are the only top decks that run mainboard enchantent reoval), so its not like your hurting this deck's ability to blank many cards in your opponents hand by running it.
The ascnesion enables a greater likely hood for turn three kills. It can help you fight past counterspells (now they have to counter two copies which is exponentialy harder to do for counterspell players), and if you have two active ascension, a mana morphose, and a remand, then you have pretty much infinite stor count. If you fizzle it lets you recover very easily.
I can't imagine the deck without it (unless you happen to be runnign the slower gifts version of the deck).
The people who are sayign its a bad card in storm or that its not good do not know what they are talkign about. during worlds it (ascension) was run as a 3-4of in all of the top storm lists. It is not up for debate. The numers and statisics have spoken, the vast majority of succesful lists (ones that have won PTQ's) run Ascension.
I am a beginner here so if this is an obvious question I apologize, but what is, generally speaking, the difference in build between a storm deck build made for pyromancer ascension vs a storm deck that uses a different engine. What pros does pyromancer have, and is its con slowed down speed?, or is there more cons then just that?
There are huge differences between the VanPhanel list in the MTGO Dailies (with a review in GP Turin) and all other UR Storm lists. The VanPhanel list runs no rituals, no Storm cards, no other Storm engines, and 4 Noxious Revivals and is generally slower (assembling an active Ascension + Noxious Revival + Manamorphose takes forever). Current UR Storm runs Past in Flames and often one of Pyromancer Ascension, Pyromancer's Swath, and Gifts Ungiven. The Storm cards include Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens.
unkyunk has covered the pros of Ascension quite well. IMO, the con is that it is a less reliable kill, as charging the Ascension up can take a minute or forever depending on your draws. Ascensions are also at least half-dead if they don't show up before Turn 4. As probably every UR Storm list in all Modern competitive levels after Innistrad was released has shown, Past in Flames is the real undeniable Storm engine. Even in a PiF Ascension Hybrid build, I win about half my games on the back of Past in Flames alone. Being semi-immune to targeted discard helps.
Of course, running more than one Storm engine is probably ideal. I also run a UR Storm deck with PiF as the only Storm engine and no Empty the Warrens; it's pretty reliable, but the PiF Ascension Hybrid build is more likely to combo off on Turn 4, and speed is essential for this archetype. The PiF Ascension Hybrid build can also fight through stuff like copious life gain, Mindbreak Trap, and even Faith's Shield more easily--just keep getting Grapeshots or draw into Grapeshots the very next turn. It also has an easier time ignoring Thorn of Amethyst effects.
Ascension adds insane levels of consistency to the deck. It makes going off virtually immune to most counterspells (It can even allow you to go off through a mindbreak trap though it is still difficult) and makes sure that you do not fizzle. I do not compare it to swath though. I think it is more of a past in flames type effect that allows you to go off instead of being your finisher (in my build at least). I really try to have an ascension in play with a good chance of getting it charged or a past in flames before I go off. It really acts like PiF 5-8 until by allowing you to get going and rip through your deck. I've gone off from like 2 cards in hand, 1 counter on ascension, 3 lands in play, with one grapeshot, and without ever seeing a PiF (which was odd because I run four). However, I would not recommend playing Ascension without four faithless looting, you get too many dead cards in hand between grapeshot, PiF, and Ascension so the looting is very necessary.
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There are huge differences between the VanPhanel list in the MTGO Dailies (with a review in GP Turin) and all other UR Storm lists. The VanPhanel list runs no rituals, no Storm cards, no other Storm engines, and 4 Noxious Revivals and is generally slower (assembling an active Ascension + Noxious Revival + Manamorphose takes forever). Current UR Storm runs Past in Flames and often one of Pyromancer Ascension, Pyromancer's Swath, and Gifts Ungiven. The Storm cards include Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens.
unkyunk has covered the pros of Ascension quite well. IMO, the con is that it is a less reliable kill, as charging the Ascension up can take a minute or forever depending on your draws. Ascensions are also at least half-dead if they don't show up before Turn 4. As probably every UR Storm list in all Modern competitive levels after Innistrad was released has shown, Past in Flames is the real undeniable Storm engine. Even in a PiF Ascension Hybrid build, I win about half my games on the back of Past in Flames alone. Being semi-immune to targeted discard helps.
Of course, running more than one Storm engine is probably ideal. I also run a UR Storm deck with PiF as the only Storm engine and no Empty the Warrens; it's pretty reliable, but the PiF Ascension Hybrid build is more likely to combo off on Turn 4, and speed is essential for this archetype. The PiF Ascension Hybrid build can also fight through stuff like copious life gain, Mindbreak Trap, and even Faith's Shield more easily--just keep getting Grapeshots or draw into Grapeshots the very next turn. It also has an easier time ignoring Thorn of Amethyst effects.
Haha, okay, true...
I did forget that its akward to draw after turn 3-4.
The only time I ever find it appropriat to not run ascension is when you are running gifts ungiven. But other than that there is no reason to not run it.
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In other news, do you guys like playing Pyromancer Ascension in storm?
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If you want to try and make the kill at lower storm counts, pack burn spells. Swath, double lightning bolt, grapeshot is 22 damage.
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I also think Ascension is kind of slow. But having 8 cards in your deck that you can dig to win the game is better than only 4 (Swath.) It would depend however on your deck was built and what blue cards you decided to run.
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I'd imagine (and this is purely theoretical) that Ascension would have a slightly better matchup against control, as it doesn't roll over and die once its first attempt at going off gets dealt with.
As far as Swath-dedicated lists go, I think Ascension is win more in those lists. You shouldn't really need it, it just seems like a distraction. I think they both belong in separate deck lists, both of which are equally viable.
(note: all above is based on no evidence other than personal opinion. Do not take as proof of anything)
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Exactly. Ascension and Swath-Storm are two completely different decks, with different gameplans. I don't think you can put both in the same list and be playing an optimal deck.
I don't agree with him, though. I don't much like Ascension in Storm lists.
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4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Archive Trap
4 Trapmaker's Snare
1 Red Sun Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
8 Island
5 Mountain
2 Slagstorm
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Frost Titan
1 Inferno Titan
3 Gigadrowse
What do you guys think of this alternate win condition for the deck? When all else fails, you can just burn them to death with doubled Lightning Bolt or Red Sun Zenith.
The ascnesion enables a greater likely hood for turn three kills. It can help you fight past counterspells (now they have to counter two copies which is exponentialy harder to do for counterspell players), and if you have two active ascension, a mana morphose, and a remand, then you have pretty much infinite stor count. If you fizzle it lets you recover very easily.
I can't imagine the deck without it (unless you happen to be runnign the slower gifts version of the deck).
The people who are sayign its a bad card in storm or that its not good do not know what they are talkign about. during worlds it (ascension) was run as a 3-4of in all of the top storm lists. It is not up for debate. The numers and statisics have spoken, the vast majority of succesful lists (ones that have won PTQ's) run Ascension.
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[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
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WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
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URStorm
RBurn
There are huge differences between the VanPhanel list in the MTGO Dailies (with a review in GP Turin) and all other UR Storm lists. The VanPhanel list runs no rituals, no Storm cards, no other Storm engines, and 4 Noxious Revivals and is generally slower (assembling an active Ascension + Noxious Revival + Manamorphose takes forever). Current UR Storm runs Past in Flames and often one of Pyromancer Ascension, Pyromancer's Swath, and Gifts Ungiven. The Storm cards include Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens.
unkyunk has covered the pros of Ascension quite well. IMO, the con is that it is a less reliable kill, as charging the Ascension up can take a minute or forever depending on your draws. Ascensions are also at least half-dead if they don't show up before Turn 4. As probably every UR Storm list in all Modern competitive levels after Innistrad was released has shown, Past in Flames is the real undeniable Storm engine. Even in a PiF Ascension Hybrid build, I win about half my games on the back of Past in Flames alone. Being semi-immune to targeted discard helps.
Of course, running more than one Storm engine is probably ideal. I also run a UR Storm deck with PiF as the only Storm engine and no Empty the Warrens; it's pretty reliable, but the PiF Ascension Hybrid build is more likely to combo off on Turn 4, and speed is essential for this archetype. The PiF Ascension Hybrid build can also fight through stuff like copious life gain, Mindbreak Trap, and even Faith's Shield more easily--just keep getting Grapeshots or draw into Grapeshots the very next turn. It also has an easier time ignoring Thorn of Amethyst effects.
Haha, okay, true...
I did forget that its akward to draw after turn 3-4.
The only time I ever find it appropriat to not run ascension is when you are running gifts ungiven. But other than that there is no reason to not run it.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn