Now, let's be honest, Innistrad gave us little to work with for this Archetype, but I think we can make it work. I've listed various cards below that we have lost and have the option of working with.
Best card choices from Innistrad:
Brimstone Volley - 3 CMC burn with a Morbid for 5 damage. Eh, decent.
Devil's Play - XR burn spell with Flashback. Possible late game spell.
Witchbane Orb - Destroys pesky Curse auras on us and gives us Hexproof with better playable than Leyline of Sanctity, because we don't have to worry about white mana.
What we lost:
- Everflowing Chalice - This sucked. This was a big part of the old Big Red and it's gone. Time to adapt.
- Lightning Bolt - Excellent and cheap burn. Going to be hard to replace at a decent cost, but we have Incinerate and Galvanic Blast to work with.
- Chandra Nalaar - For those of us who used her, she was useful. Now we only have Koth and a rather subpar Chandra to work it.
Well what we lost sucked but our problem matchups are gone. Big red struggled with combo decks like valakut and twin which are rotating. We don't know what the new standard will be like but it's likely we'll have a decent shot of making the deck work.
Pretty much a direct port of the block deck. Sphere of the Suns accelerates, sticks around for Metalcraft, and helps cast Dismember/flashback Ancient Grudge. Inferno Titan could come out for Wurmcoil Engine depending on the metagame.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Now, let's be honest, Innistrad gave us little to work with for this Archetype, but I think we can make it work. I've listed various cards below that we have lost and have the option of working with.
Best card choices from Innistrad:
Brimstone Volley - 3 CMC burn with a Morbid for 5 damage. Eh, decent.
Devil's Play - XR burn spell with Flashback. Possible late game spell.
Witchbane Orb - Destroys pesky Curse auras on us and gives us Hexproof with better playable than Leyline of Sanctity, because we don't have to worry about white mana.
What we lost:
- Everflowing Chalice - This sucked. This was a big part of the old Big Red and it's gone. Time to adapt.
- Lightning Bolt - Excellent and cheap burn. Going to be hard to replace at a decent cost, but we have Incinerate and Galvanic Blast to work with.
- Chandra Nalaar - For those of us who used her, she was useful. Now we only have Koth and a rather subpar Chandra to work it.
Begin the discussion.
I still don't get why no volt charge. Especially with lightning bolt rotating, it makes room for more slots. The proliferate is just so good in this deck. I realize Tezz Gambit does this also, and is working more towards the deck strives to do, but more proliferate is good proliferate, and you don't feel you need a bit more burn as removal or whatnot? Turn 4 Koth Ultimate is just so ridiculous.
Devil's Play should be a 1-2 of. Red Sun's Zenith may be better with the "exile" clause, with all of the graveard shinenegans.
I aggree on both points. I'd be happy if we had something besides the myr, haha. What about mox opal x3?
Can someone explain to me why they would run Devil's Play at all? Did you forget about Red Sun's Zenith? They both do the same damage for same cost, and red sun recycles multiple times AND exiles the creature card. Sure you can flashback wth devils play, but, meh....
Pretty much a direct port of the block deck. Sphere of the Suns accelerates, sticks around for Metalcraft, and helps cast Dismember/flashback Ancient Grudge. Inferno Titan could come out for Wurmcoil Engine depending on the metagame.
After looking over this deck some, I have come to terms with a small realization. This style of Big Red seems...efficient. It grants us removal for O-Rings and Gideon in the form of Liquimetal Coating and "Destroy target artifact" effects. It also gives us clutch metalcraft when we would need it, or so the possibility exists.
I'm going to ponder over this some more and I'll have a new list up shortly.
Also, anything taken two weeks before rotation is speculation at best. We have the idea that Pod decks and Tempered Steel will remain strong, but Big Red had a rather easy matchup against those two decks pre-rotation. The remnants of UW and UB control with be a pain to handle, but we'll find a way to overcome those hurdles.
I have a strong belief that this deck can be one of the top decks. I just wish Innistrad gave us a little more to work with, haha.
Edit: And yeah, Red Sun's Zenith and Devil's Play a basic purpose, but the flashback against Control matchups is way to good to pass up. Maybe a 1-1 split, with an additional of either in the board. About Volt Charge, it's something worth experimenting with now. We'll see how things evolve over the next few weeks.
After looking over this deck some, I have come to terms with a small realization. This style of Big Red seems...efficient. It grants us removal for O-Rings and Gideon in the form of Liquimetal Coating and "Destroy target artifact" effects. It also gives us clutch metalcraft when we would need it, or so the possibility exists.
I'm going to ponder over this some more and I'll have a new list up shortly.
Yeah, I mean, it's a top-heavy control deck that doesn't draw cards, so you have to rely on that sneaky synergy to stabilize in the mid game. People see mountains and don't usually think about Liquimetal Coating being an important card. I actually may even run 26/61 to hedge against screw, since it's just so top-heavy.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
how is nobody looking into balefire dragon? dropping it turn 4-5 absolutely destroys aggro/is a flying frickin titan lol.
I also dont understand why people are worried about everflowing chalice rotating... losing it will by no means kill big red(it means we wont get as nutty X spells but with only want to be banefires in standard anyway, who cares). we still have sphere of the suns and any color appropriate myr to fill the spot.
Im going to throw together a list tonight and post it (assuming the roast of charlie sheen doesnt kill me with laughter :D) though im assuming now i will probably be splashing a color... I dont know what color yet but it will probably be there.
It would seem the splash would be blue for counters and filter. I liked that idea originally and it allows you to play up the proliferate mechanic.
blue is ok... it was better before INN tho, lol i should know i was like the only one running a splash let alone a blue one. adding counter magic is really counter productive to big red's play style of big things really fast. chances are your tapping out (or very close to it) every turn and that leaves no mana for counters. remember big red is all about threats, not answers.
personally im going to look into green and black first.
green is gonna give us: Garruk relentless (not really any synergy but a powerhouse none the less), make a wish (gives us more reach), ambush viper (I feel like this will make a big impact if midrange aggro takes over), and hollowhenge scavenger (to keep us in the game without haveing to deal damage (im looking at you wurmcoil engine :mad:))
black gives us: heartless summoning (a BIG threat in big red.. seriously a 5/5 inferno titan for 4? thank you very much pls, only drawback being that we dont really run a lot of creatures), altar's reap (super awesome synergy with wurmcoil engine or a way to net cards off a creature that was gonna die anyway), bloodgift demon (seriously? a standard legal phyrexian arena?!?! SWEET! lol), bump in the night (might just replace lightning bolt in some lists... obviously its not as flexable but 3 life is 3 life), corpse lunge (probably wont see play but since pretty much ALL of our creatures are huge might be worth looking into), unburial rites (we probably wont have a way to abuse the flashback, but it gives our titans flashback so who cares lol) IMO black has the edge right now... at least without throwing anything together.
with blue we lost: halimar depths (I still ran this card even after I dropped the splash... yeah it was just THAT good), into the roil (was only a sideboard card anyway so not huge loss) and rite of replication (a finisher in my list so it really only affects me) ... so we didnt really lose much
we gain: sulfur falls (huge mana fixer/replacement for scalding tarns(kind of a bad one since we cant tutor up a mountain to help with koths ult)), crackling counterpart (UU in the 3 cmc spot might be a little heavy but its for a good cause lol), curiosity (fun when equiped to inferno titan and thats about it), forbidden alchemy (great filter when looking for bombs), hysterical blindness (seems legit against aggro), and maybe think twice (we already have tezzeret's gambit tho) idk blue might be the best call but with no list to look at i couldnt tell you off hand.
Deck edited after further testing. Something magical about Palladium Myr. I dunno. Dropping my bombs on turn four seems good. Iron Myr/Sphere of the Suns preceding the Palladium will mean that Igniter will be open. Straight up Palladium and straight land drops every turn means Inferno Titan and Wurmcoil are open on turn four. Geosurge is dumb. That is all. I understand this build has a lot of choices that don't see a lot of play, and I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but until I can figure what that reason is, I'm rolling with it. Current changes considerations are as follows.
-2 Solemn Simulacrum/+2 Hellkite Igniter (I cannot express how often this dragon wins games)
+Torpor Orb in Sideboard?
+Tumble Magnet in Mainboard?
+Volt Charge in Mainboard? Only with Tumble Magnet, probably.
+Kuldotha Phoenix in Mainboard? 5 CMC is a strange number for this deck, but hitting Metalcraft is cake.
Honestly, I feel like there's going to be enough important artifacts (Steel, Pod, etc.) in the immediate future that you don't really even need to draw Coating to make the deck worthwhile.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Rokay gents. I was messing around with Big Red for the better part of five hours of playtesting, and found that a generous application of black proved to make a rather volatile deck. Originally considered for abuse of Heartless Summons. The original flavor of Big Red with a color twist!
I feel like with sphere of the suns and summits, you can get away with fewer swamps (but still a nonzero amount to let solemn do some fixing) to put Koth back in the list. Dude is house and one of your turn 4/5 titan enablers.
Wait, no love for Urabrask the Hidden?
I've been playing Big Red since Koth got printed, and I can fully say 4 Tumble Magnets are needed in every list.
Tezzert's Gambit is also too good since the deck plays pretty much control.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Notable Outcomes
2nd @ PTQ San Juan 2010 [RDW]
3rd @ Provincials 2011 [Solar Flare]
1st @ GPT Orlando 2011 [Mono G Wolf Run]
T8'd @ GPT LA 2012 [UW Delver]
T8'd @ GPT Vancouver 2012 [RW Humans]
T8'd @ GPT Toronto 2012 [UWR Midrange]
Attended GP Toronto 2012, but didn't get there [UR Twin]
Currently top 8'd every GPT I ever entered
I've tested probably well over 60 post-rotation games with this deck, and have been developing it with friends and enemies alike as soon as we started getting significant ISD spoilers. It's been doing excellent in testing, and so far very few potential decks in the metagame worry me in the slightest. The list:
The deck is very aggressive, very synergistic, and often explosive, and to top it off it has a lot of late game reach to finish the opponent off despite their attempts to stabilize.
The last SB slot is currently being tested, but it's definitely going to be dedicated to the Ux Draw Go match up. Post board that deck has something like 4 Mana Leak, 4 Dissipate, 4 Flashfreeze, 4 Snapcaster Mage and generally 1-2 Negate, so I want something resilient to counterspells - either Chandra's Phoenix, Kuldotha Phoenix, or just Surgical Extraction to blow out their Snapcaster and cut down on their counterwall density. If I were to run Extraction, though, I'd want 2-3 copies, so as long as I only have one extra slot available, I think I'd rather dedicate it to an extra Phoenix of some kind. If the match up proves troublesome enough, I may also just cut the Batterskulls for Kuldotha Phoenixes.
That said, everything else in the deck has been pretty solid. I find myself removing Dismember a lot post-board (I generally only keep it in vs Pod), but I like having at least some 1CC removal MD, as the versatility has been invaluable. If I decide I want more threats and less answers, I'll move the Dismembers to the board and replace them with the SB'd Phoenix and Koth.
I understand some lists not playing Chandra, and that's fine; she's been incredible for me, but she's definitely a build-around, and I could see wanting more creatures (basically Solemn and Urabrask) for some match ups. However, I think it's absolutely wrong not to play 4 Shrine of Burning Rage. Shrine is the best red card in Standard, and it's not close. When you land a T2 Shrine, your opponent basically starts at 10 life or less, and if you draw more than one Shrine early, you're a huge favorite to win in spite of almost anything the opponent does. If they answer Shrine, that means they're not Oblivion Ringing your Planeswalkers, Phoenixes, or Titans, or they're not Acidic Slimeing your lands and keeping you off of Titan / Fireball mana - they're just spending more mana and time than you spent to cast Shrine. I wouldn't even consider attempting Big Red without 4 Shrine.
Creatures that need to be in play to accelerate (Iron Myr, etc) are no replacement for Chalice, and they're just terrible. They die to your own Slagstorms, or any of your opponent's removal, and relying on them is pretty terrible. I've found that making Shrine or Sphere my reliable T2 play has worked out very well, and to compensate for the less common T3 4-drop, I've just made my 3-slot really matter, with Chandra's Phoenix, Slagstorm, Volt Charge, and Tezzeret's Gambit all very viable and solid plays.
Also, for those who don't know: Balefire Dragon is terrible. Compare it to Inferno Titan:
Dragon costs more than Titan, and 7 is a lot more than 6 - T2 Sphere, T3 Solemn gets you to Titan, but not to Dragon.
Dragon doesn't create an immediate impact on the board, the way that Titan does. Titan wraths aggro's board immediately, even if it's immediately killed. If Dragon's immediately killed... you're probably dead because you tapped out for your opponent to spend 1-3 mana on it.
Inferno Titan creates additional value as soon as it swings, whereas Dragon actually has to connect - and Inkmoth Nexus is seeing a lot of play. Titan can clear the way for itself immediately, often letting you finish their board off and then connect with 6+ damage. Which leads me to my next point...
Titan hits harder. On top of the fact that it's cheaper, more disruptive, more explosive, and that it creates immediate card advantage, it also just flat-out has the ability to hit harder than Dragon, which is very important in a deck that often finds itself racing the opponent.
Even Wurmcoil is just much, much better than Dragon, as it's also cheaper, it affects the board state much more significantly if it's not answered, it races better, and it's harder to answer effectively. Also, you can recur it with Buried Ruin (and more of the decklists here should be playing that as a 2-of, with so many artifacts).
Why is the forest MB and why just one? I like the rest of the list but I wouldn't be caught dead playing chandra. Preference I guess.
Why should a basic land that doesn't actually do anything suck up an entire SB slot when I can play it mainboard without hurting anything? If I'm willing to damage the manabase to board it in at all, I should just play it MD. Also Ghost Quarter fetches it in a pinch - and yes, I would Strip Mine myself in an instant if it meant I wasn't dying to a Sword.
I wasn't impressed by Chandra until I saw her in action. She's very solid, and better than Koth against basically every aggro deck, as she picks off various X/1's or couples with Dismember or a 3-damage burn spell to pick off Titans and Spellskites. The -2 is the real reason you play her though - copying a Volt Charge or Gambit is just nuts, and otherwise copying a Dismember or Slagstorm to wipe the opponent's board is also occasionally effective. But copying Devil's Play? It's just gross. In addition, Chandra's Phoenix is a very powerful tool for late game reach if you support it, and Chandra herself is one of the best ways to do so.
Since we are mono color, not having 3-4 inkmoths seems like a waste. Ghost quarter just doesn't have enough targets. I guess you could stop an opposing inkmoth or maybe one the new special lands but nothing scares me enough to warrant sacrificing a land to make them trade for a basic.
Arc Trail and Slagstorm keep the board clear. Trigon poses a more immediate threat than shrine, has the ability to keep large attackers at bay, and is quite scary with an inkmoth. Going 2-2 shrine/trigon opens up some very aggressive options. I would have to do a fair bit more testing though to settle on final numbers.
Edit - I did the math. With only 15 artifacts the % chance of metalcraft is fairly low by turn 6 (63%). I changed my mind on the kuldotha phoenix, Ill stick with 2 titans and 2 phoenix. There just isnt the room for more artifacts to get the % where I feel comfortable with it.
Edit 2- Changed more stuff that wasn't holding up. I dont like the MB dismember. Id like to find a way to get some CA in those 2 spots.
Because it's actually your 5th forest. 4 Spheres, 1 Forest is 5 green sources for your 3 SB Ancient Grudge.
@Tagonte - Can you explain your SB choices and what you use them for?
Sure.
The open slot (between Chandra's Phoenix and Kuldotha Phoenix, currently) is almost strictly for Draw-go control, but it could come in vs other control decks.
Arc Trail is for aggro and Birthing Pod - Pod has a lot of small utility creatures + Phantasmal Image, and Arc Trail has been very strong vs them.
Ancient Grudge is for Pod, Puresteel, Tempered Steel, Sword decks, Shrine of Burning Rage decks, and any other deck with artifacts that I care about enough to want to remove. This comes in vs a lot of decks, but not always as a 3-of.
Slagstorm is occasionally for aggro, but more often for the UW Hexproof decks - to take down Saint Traft and Invisible Stalker. I'm often okay with just 2 Arc Trail and 3 Slagstorm vs aggro, though, as they have a hard time fighting through even that much removal.
Metamorph is for decks with Titans, legends, or other relevant fatties. Birthing Pod is the prime suspect here, as copying one of their absurd fatties (like a Praetor, to legend rule out, or any Titan) is very strong. Otherwise copying an Acidic Slime and blowing their Pod or fragile mana base is also very strong. This comes in vs other bomb heavy decks as well, so occasionally control or other midrange decks.
Tumble Magnet is for decks with lots of fatties - like the Big Red mirror, usually, or other Titan based decks. It doesn't come in a ton, but it does from time to time.
Koth comes in vs control decks. I actually remove 3 Koth from the MD vs most aggro match ups, but in all other cases I just want to jam Koths all day.
Batterskull is pretty sweet. It comes in vs aggro and control alike, but not decks like Pod that can easily and regularly blow up artifacts. It's excellent vs aggro because it threatens to gain life both while blocking and swinging, and excellent vs control because it's very difficult to actually kill, and helps provide another never-ending threat. I like it a lot in general because it lets me continuously race and apply pressure while maintaining an awesome blocker for my Planeswalkers.
Pretty much a direct port of the block deck. Sphere of the Suns accelerates, sticks around for Metalcraft, and helps cast Dismember/flashback Ancient Grudge. Inferno Titan could come out for Wurmcoil Engine depending on the metagame.
So I did some playtesting with this last night. I cut Koth, a Phoenix, a Sad Robot, and two land to make room for 4 slagstorm and 3 arc trail. I always always had plenty of land between robots and sphere. I hit turn 5 six drops very reliably. My new favorite trick is [CARD=liquimetal coating]Coating an O-ring before it exiles my Coating, letting the o-ring's trigger resolve, then Grudging it and turning something else into an artifact with the same Coating, then flashing back Grudge.
I made these changes because I think aggro is going to be the most prominent match-up and potentially the best deck post rotation is tempered steel. I feel good about slagstorm and arc trail in that light. I cut Koth because I don't think this deck can adequately defend him and I don't think his mana ramp effect is what I want to spend my turn three/four doing; I'd rather have my turn four titan off a Sad Robot or wipe the table with a slagstorm.
With Koth gone, there was no reason to be so red. I don't know what we want outside of utility lands (maybe Stencia Bloodhall?) as red does a good job giving us most of what we need. I could definitely see the benefit of a blue splash to help find our cards. Forbidden Alchemy looks especially interesting in this capacity and could be paid for with the new dual land and flashed back off our sphere of the sun. I'd like a way to reccur the stuff I pitch, though. This would also give us some neat sideboard options.
I am not the biggest fan of the ramp strategies. I have been looking at the other big decks and 3 out of 4 of them have access to white mana. I would expect to see Stony Silence in a lot of side boards. In addition Solar Flare has the potential to drop a T4 Sheoldred/Runescar/Sun Titan. I do not believe ramp will get there fast enough to kill them before control takes over.
I also believe that the utilizing both types of recurring phoenix could be a solution to a lot of the control elements they have. Just have to do it in a way that isn't completely shut down by a stony silence.
The reanimator strats are inconsistent - they may happen occasionally, but playing 4 Sphere and up to 4 Solemn not only doesn't make you hugely effected by Stony Silence, it still allows you to consistently accelerate so that you can actually keep up with the explosiveness of opposing decks. Ramp is very important for this archetype, because Big Red's threatening cards are generally mid-to-late-game threats. It's completely nonsensical to imply that ramping will not make us faster, because there's no other way that Koth or Inferno Titan are coming down any earlier.
I think that all ramp sources currently available in mono red other than Sphere and Solemn are terrible and unplayable though - Myr, Rituals, etc are all trash and aren't even considerable.
EDIT: It's also important to note that many of the white decks would never in their life play Stony Silence - UW Aggro / Control wouldn't want to turn off their Swords, and Puresteel & Tempered Steel would obviously also never play it.
Here's my sample list.
24 Mountain
Creatures
4 Inferno Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
Spells
4 Sphere of the Suns
3 Tumble Magnet
4 Galvanic Blast
2 Slagstorm
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Koth of the Hammer
1 Dismember
1 Devil's Play
4 Manic Vandal
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Mindslaver
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Slagstorm
3 Spellskite
1 Devil's Play
Now, let's be honest, Innistrad gave us little to work with for this Archetype, but I think we can make it work. I've listed various cards below that we have lost and have the option of working with.
Best card choices from Innistrad:
Brimstone Volley - 3 CMC burn with a Morbid for 5 damage. Eh, decent.
Devil's Play - XR burn spell with Flashback. Possible late game spell.
Witchbane Orb - Destroys pesky Curse auras on us and gives us Hexproof with better playable than Leyline of Sanctity, because we don't have to worry about white mana.
What we lost:
- Everflowing Chalice - This sucked. This was a big part of the old Big Red and it's gone. Time to adapt.
- Lightning Bolt - Excellent and cheap burn. Going to be hard to replace at a decent cost, but we have Incinerate and Galvanic Blast to work with.
- Chandra Nalaar - For those of us who used her, she was useful. Now we only have Koth and a rather subpar Chandra to work it.
Begin the discussion.
Retired Player
Devil's Play should be a 1-2 of. Red Sun's Zenith may be better with the "exile" clause, with all of the graveard shinenegans.
4 Sphere of the Suns
4 Galvanic Blast
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Liquimetal Coating
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Kuldotha Phoenix
3 Hoard-Smelter Dragon
2 Inferno Titan
2 Mimic Vat
4 Tumble Magnet
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Slagstorm
3 Dismember
Pretty much a direct port of the block deck. Sphere of the Suns accelerates, sticks around for Metalcraft, and helps cast Dismember/flashback Ancient Grudge. Inferno Titan could come out for Wurmcoil Engine depending on the metagame.
I still don't get why no volt charge. Especially with lightning bolt rotating, it makes room for more slots. The proliferate is just so good in this deck. I realize Tezz Gambit does this also, and is working more towards the deck strives to do, but more proliferate is good proliferate, and you don't feel you need a bit more burn as removal or whatnot? Turn 4 Koth Ultimate is just so ridiculous.
Besides that, I like your list a lot.
Buylist
I aggree on both points. I'd be happy if we had something besides the myr, haha. What about mox opal x3?
Can someone explain to me why they would run Devil's Play at all? Did you forget about Red Sun's Zenith? They both do the same damage for same cost, and red sun recycles multiple times AND exiles the creature card. Sure you can flashback wth devils play, but, meh....
After looking over this deck some, I have come to terms with a small realization. This style of Big Red seems...efficient. It grants us removal for O-Rings and Gideon in the form of Liquimetal Coating and "Destroy target artifact" effects. It also gives us clutch metalcraft when we would need it, or so the possibility exists.
I'm going to ponder over this some more and I'll have a new list up shortly.
Also, anything taken two weeks before rotation is speculation at best. We have the idea that Pod decks and Tempered Steel will remain strong, but Big Red had a rather easy matchup against those two decks pre-rotation. The remnants of UW and UB control with be a pain to handle, but we'll find a way to overcome those hurdles.
I have a strong belief that this deck can be one of the top decks. I just wish Innistrad gave us a little more to work with, haha.
Edit: And yeah, Red Sun's Zenith and Devil's Play a basic purpose, but the flashback against Control matchups is way to good to pass up. Maybe a 1-1 split, with an additional of either in the board. About Volt Charge, it's something worth experimenting with now. We'll see how things evolve over the next few weeks.
Retired Player
Yeah, I mean, it's a top-heavy control deck that doesn't draw cards, so you have to rely on that sneaky synergy to stabilize in the mid game. People see mountains and don't usually think about Liquimetal Coating being an important card. I actually may even run 26/61 to hedge against screw, since it's just so top-heavy.
I also dont understand why people are worried about everflowing chalice rotating... losing it will by no means kill big red(it means we wont get as nutty X spells but with only want to be banefires in standard anyway, who cares). we still have sphere of the suns and any color appropriate myr to fill the spot.
Im going to throw together a list tonight and post it (assuming the roast of charlie sheen doesnt kill me with laughter :D) though im assuming now i will probably be splashing a color... I dont know what color yet but it will probably be there.
RR(P/U)Big Red(P/U)RR 24-8-2 (un-retired)
RWR BorosRWR 21-7 (retired)
Modern Lists:
Boros
Kithkin
blue is ok... it was better before INN tho, lol i should know i was like the only one running a splash let alone a blue one. adding counter magic is really counter productive to big red's play style of big things really fast. chances are your tapping out (or very close to it) every turn and that leaves no mana for counters. remember big red is all about threats, not answers.
personally im going to look into green and black first.
green is gonna give us: Garruk relentless (not really any synergy but a powerhouse none the less), make a wish (gives us more reach), ambush viper (I feel like this will make a big impact if midrange aggro takes over), and hollowhenge scavenger (to keep us in the game without haveing to deal damage (im looking at you wurmcoil engine :mad:))
black gives us: heartless summoning (a BIG threat in big red.. seriously a 5/5 inferno titan for 4? thank you very much pls, only drawback being that we dont really run a lot of creatures), altar's reap (super awesome synergy with wurmcoil engine or a way to net cards off a creature that was gonna die anyway), bloodgift demon (seriously? a standard legal phyrexian arena?!?! SWEET! lol), bump in the night (might just replace lightning bolt in some lists... obviously its not as flexable but 3 life is 3 life), corpse lunge (probably wont see play but since pretty much ALL of our creatures are huge might be worth looking into), unburial rites (we probably wont have a way to abuse the flashback, but it gives our titans flashback so who cares lol) IMO black has the edge right now... at least without throwing anything together.
with blue we lost: halimar depths (I still ran this card even after I dropped the splash... yeah it was just THAT good), into the roil (was only a sideboard card anyway so not huge loss) and rite of replication (a finisher in my list so it really only affects me) ... so we didnt really lose much
we gain: sulfur falls (huge mana fixer/replacement for scalding tarns(kind of a bad one since we cant tutor up a mountain to help with koths ult)), crackling counterpart (UU in the 3 cmc spot might be a little heavy but its for a good cause lol), curiosity (fun when equiped to inferno titan and thats about it), forbidden alchemy (great filter when looking for bombs), hysterical blindness (seems legit against aggro), and maybe think twice (we already have tezzeret's gambit tho) idk blue might be the best call but with no list to look at i couldnt tell you off hand.
RR(P/U)Big Red(P/U)RR 24-8-2 (un-retired)
RWR BorosRWR 21-7 (retired)
Modern Lists:
Boros
Kithkin
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Inferno Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Balefire Dragon
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Volt Charge
4 Sphere of the Suns
2 Slagstorm
3 Ghost Quarter
The Liquimetal style looks really fun, btw
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
-2 Solemn Simulacrum/+2 Hellkite Igniter (I cannot express how often this dragon wins games)
+Torpor Orb in Sideboard?
+Tumble Magnet in Mainboard?
+Volt Charge in Mainboard? Only with Tumble Magnet, probably.
+Kuldotha Phoenix in Mainboard? 5 CMC is a strange number for this deck, but hitting Metalcraft is cake.
2 Hellkite Igniter
2 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Iron Myr
4 Palladium Myr
4 Inferno Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Galvanic Blast
4 Sphere of the Suns
4 Koth of the Hammer
4 Geosurge
Lands: 24
24 Mountains
4 Slagstorm
4 Arc Trail
4 Shatter
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Spellskite
Honestly, I feel like there's going to be enough important artifacts (Steel, Pod, etc.) in the immediate future that you don't really even need to draw Coating to make the deck worthwhile.
I feel like with sphere of the suns and summits, you can get away with fewer swamps (but still a nonzero amount to let solemn do some fixing) to put Koth back in the list. Dude is house and one of your turn 4/5 titan enablers.
I've been playing Big Red since Koth got printed, and I can fully say 4 Tumble Magnets are needed in every list.
Tezzert's Gambit is also too good since the deck plays pretty much control.
2nd @ PTQ San Juan 2010 [RDW]
3rd @ Provincials 2011 [Solar Flare]
1st @ GPT Orlando 2011 [Mono G Wolf Run]
T8'd @ GPT LA 2012 [UW Delver]
T8'd @ GPT Vancouver 2012 [RW Humans]
T8'd @ GPT Toronto 2012 [UWR Midrange]
Attended GP Toronto 2012, but didn't get there [UR Twin]
Currently top 8'd every GPT I ever entered
19 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Inkmoth Nexus
Creatures
3 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalkers
3 Koth of the Hammer
3 Chandra, the Firebrand
4 Sphere of the Suns
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
Instants & Sorceries
2 Dismember
3 Slagstorm
3 Volt Charge
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
2 Devil's Play
2 Arc Trail
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Slagstorm
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Tumble Magnet
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Batterskull
1 XXX
The deck is very aggressive, very synergistic, and often explosive, and to top it off it has a lot of late game reach to finish the opponent off despite their attempts to stabilize.
The last SB slot is currently being tested, but it's definitely going to be dedicated to the Ux Draw Go match up. Post board that deck has something like 4 Mana Leak, 4 Dissipate, 4 Flashfreeze, 4 Snapcaster Mage and generally 1-2 Negate, so I want something resilient to counterspells - either Chandra's Phoenix, Kuldotha Phoenix, or just Surgical Extraction to blow out their Snapcaster and cut down on their counterwall density. If I were to run Extraction, though, I'd want 2-3 copies, so as long as I only have one extra slot available, I think I'd rather dedicate it to an extra Phoenix of some kind. If the match up proves troublesome enough, I may also just cut the Batterskulls for Kuldotha Phoenixes.
That said, everything else in the deck has been pretty solid. I find myself removing Dismember a lot post-board (I generally only keep it in vs Pod), but I like having at least some 1CC removal MD, as the versatility has been invaluable. If I decide I want more threats and less answers, I'll move the Dismembers to the board and replace them with the SB'd Phoenix and Koth.
I understand some lists not playing Chandra, and that's fine; she's been incredible for me, but she's definitely a build-around, and I could see wanting more creatures (basically Solemn and Urabrask) for some match ups. However, I think it's absolutely wrong not to play 4 Shrine of Burning Rage. Shrine is the best red card in Standard, and it's not close. When you land a T2 Shrine, your opponent basically starts at 10 life or less, and if you draw more than one Shrine early, you're a huge favorite to win in spite of almost anything the opponent does. If they answer Shrine, that means they're not Oblivion Ringing your Planeswalkers, Phoenixes, or Titans, or they're not Acidic Slimeing your lands and keeping you off of Titan / Fireball mana - they're just spending more mana and time than you spent to cast Shrine. I wouldn't even consider attempting Big Red without 4 Shrine.
Creatures that need to be in play to accelerate (Iron Myr, etc) are no replacement for Chalice, and they're just terrible. They die to your own Slagstorms, or any of your opponent's removal, and relying on them is pretty terrible. I've found that making Shrine or Sphere my reliable T2 play has worked out very well, and to compensate for the less common T3 4-drop, I've just made my 3-slot really matter, with Chandra's Phoenix, Slagstorm, Volt Charge, and Tezzeret's Gambit all very viable and solid plays.
Also, for those who don't know: Balefire Dragon is terrible. Compare it to Inferno Titan:
Even Wurmcoil is just much, much better than Dragon, as it's also cheaper, it affects the board state much more significantly if it's not answered, it races better, and it's harder to answer effectively. Also, you can recur it with Buried Ruin (and more of the decklists here should be playing that as a 2-of, with so many artifacts).
Why should a basic land that doesn't actually do anything suck up an entire SB slot when I can play it mainboard without hurting anything? If I'm willing to damage the manabase to board it in at all, I should just play it MD. Also Ghost Quarter fetches it in a pinch - and yes, I would Strip Mine myself in an instant if it meant I wasn't dying to a Sword.
I wasn't impressed by Chandra until I saw her in action. She's very solid, and better than Koth against basically every aggro deck, as she picks off various X/1's or couples with Dismember or a 3-damage burn spell to pick off Titans and Spellskites. The -2 is the real reason you play her though - copying a Volt Charge or Gambit is just nuts, and otherwise copying a Dismember or Slagstorm to wipe the opponent's board is also occasionally effective. But copying Devil's Play? It's just gross. In addition, Chandra's Phoenix is a very powerful tool for late game reach if you support it, and Chandra herself is one of the best ways to do so.
Because it's actually your 5th forest. 4 Spheres, 1 Forest is 5 green sources for your 3 SB Ancient Grudge.
@Tagonte - Can you explain your SB choices and what you use them for?
4 Chandra's Pheonix
4 Inferno Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
Spells
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Arc Trail
3 Slagstorm
2 Sword of Feast/Famine
2 Devil's Play
4 Koth, of the Hammer
2 Trigon of Rage
2 Tumble Magnet
2 Dismember
21 Mountain
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Volt Charge
1 Slagstorm
1 Arc Trail
Since we are mono color, not having 3-4 inkmoths seems like a waste. Ghost quarter just doesn't have enough targets. I guess you could stop an opposing inkmoth or maybe one the new special lands but nothing scares me enough to warrant sacrificing a land to make them trade for a basic.
Arc Trail and Slagstorm keep the board clear. Trigon poses a more immediate threat than shrine, has the ability to keep large attackers at bay, and is quite scary with an inkmoth. Going 2-2 shrine/trigon opens up some very aggressive options. I would have to do a fair bit more testing though to settle on final numbers.
Edit - I did the math. With only 15 artifacts the % chance of metalcraft is fairly low by turn 6 (63%). I changed my mind on the kuldotha phoenix, Ill stick with 2 titans and 2 phoenix. There just isnt the room for more artifacts to get the % where I feel comfortable with it.
Edit 2- Changed more stuff that wasn't holding up. I dont like the MB dismember. Id like to find a way to get some CA in those 2 spots.
Sure.
The open slot (between Chandra's Phoenix and Kuldotha Phoenix, currently) is almost strictly for Draw-go control, but it could come in vs other control decks.
Arc Trail is for aggro and Birthing Pod - Pod has a lot of small utility creatures + Phantasmal Image, and Arc Trail has been very strong vs them.
Ancient Grudge is for Pod, Puresteel, Tempered Steel, Sword decks, Shrine of Burning Rage decks, and any other deck with artifacts that I care about enough to want to remove. This comes in vs a lot of decks, but not always as a 3-of.
Slagstorm is occasionally for aggro, but more often for the UW Hexproof decks - to take down Saint Traft and Invisible Stalker. I'm often okay with just 2 Arc Trail and 3 Slagstorm vs aggro, though, as they have a hard time fighting through even that much removal.
Metamorph is for decks with Titans, legends, or other relevant fatties. Birthing Pod is the prime suspect here, as copying one of their absurd fatties (like a Praetor, to legend rule out, or any Titan) is very strong. Otherwise copying an Acidic Slime and blowing their Pod or fragile mana base is also very strong. This comes in vs other bomb heavy decks as well, so occasionally control or other midrange decks.
Tumble Magnet is for decks with lots of fatties - like the Big Red mirror, usually, or other Titan based decks. It doesn't come in a ton, but it does from time to time.
Koth comes in vs control decks. I actually remove 3 Koth from the MD vs most aggro match ups, but in all other cases I just want to jam Koths all day.
Batterskull is pretty sweet. It comes in vs aggro and control alike, but not decks like Pod that can easily and regularly blow up artifacts. It's excellent vs aggro because it threatens to gain life both while blocking and swinging, and excellent vs control because it's very difficult to actually kill, and helps provide another never-ending threat. I like it a lot in general because it lets me continuously race and apply pressure while maintaining an awesome blocker for my Planeswalkers.
So I did some playtesting with this last night. I cut Koth, a Phoenix, a Sad Robot, and two land to make room for 4 slagstorm and 3 arc trail. I always always had plenty of land between robots and sphere. I hit turn 5 six drops very reliably. My new favorite trick is [CARD=liquimetal coating]Coating an O-ring before it exiles my Coating, letting the o-ring's trigger resolve, then Grudging it and turning something else into an artifact with the same Coating, then flashing back Grudge.
I made these changes because I think aggro is going to be the most prominent match-up and potentially the best deck post rotation is tempered steel. I feel good about slagstorm and arc trail in that light. I cut Koth because I don't think this deck can adequately defend him and I don't think his mana ramp effect is what I want to spend my turn three/four doing; I'd rather have my turn four titan off a Sad Robot or wipe the table with a slagstorm.
With Koth gone, there was no reason to be so red. I don't know what we want outside of utility lands (maybe Stencia Bloodhall?) as red does a good job giving us most of what we need. I could definitely see the benefit of a blue splash to help find our cards. Forbidden Alchemy looks especially interesting in this capacity and could be paid for with the new dual land and flashed back off our sphere of the sun. I'd like a way to reccur the stuff I pitch, though. This would also give us some neat sideboard options.
I also believe that the utilizing both types of recurring phoenix could be a solution to a lot of the control elements they have. Just have to do it in a way that isn't completely shut down by a stony silence.
I think that all ramp sources currently available in mono red other than Sphere and Solemn are terrible and unplayable though - Myr, Rituals, etc are all trash and aren't even considerable.
EDIT: It's also important to note that many of the white decks would never in their life play Stony Silence - UW Aggro / Control wouldn't want to turn off their Swords, and Puresteel & Tempered Steel would obviously also never play it.