(( This post is largely incomplete, and undergoing construction as we speak! Come back or refresh often to view new and up to date information as it rolls out! I will be often saving my work as to not lose progress in the event of disaster!So, yay for that!))
:symg::symu: Standard "Dredge" Primer :symu::symg:
---
The dredge primer has moved! To view the current primer on the developing competitive UG Standard Dredge deck, follow this link here.
WGBRU Standard "Dredge" URBGW
kickin' it old school new school style in type II
Innistrad is here to shake up standard and I'm sure everyone is geared up to test new decks.
The reason you're here though is because you're probably the guy who realized that cards in the graveyard can be as good as cards in the hand and wanted to put that little insight to good use.
But what is this term dredge? For inquiring minds here is a very brief summary of what dredge means in the world of magic.
-Historically, dredge was a deck built around a mechanic of the same that would force a player to mill themselves in order to generate a unique form of "card advantage." Typically these degenerate builds would implement powerful cards like Dread Return and Bridge from Below to kill their opponents in combo like fashion.
-Later circa Shards block standard, dredge was revived in a new incarnation. Most commonly know for the dredge-e-vine variants that were most powerful a combination of looters and graveyard beasties (Vengevine/Extractor Demon) served as the basis for a deck that smashed face. The key was to mill or discard your fatties and then recur a bunch of them on the cheap for massive beats.
-This standard season I am hoping for a revival of this archetype and the reason I've decided to start a "dredge" deck thread through which discuss builds and share thoughts on individual cards.
What Cards Are Available? Now that we've seen a precedent set by past builds it's time to look at some possibilities:
-(UPDATE 10/11/11: Started playing with the deck more and more now implementing a "rating system" for the cards that I've tried and how useful they are to this type of deck on a scale of 1-10.)
+THE MILLERS: Nephelia Drownyard- recursive milling that doesn't net any card disadvantage. Beside being un-counterable (as though someone would counter you milling yourself... who knows...) the incremental advantage that this card brings is well worth it. If your run a BUG, UB, or monoU list you should seriously think about fitting 2-4 of these in. Even in a WGB list I was not disappointed whenever I drew into this. The potential downside of this is that if you run a lot of splashes this can potentially mess with your mana base. It will require careful manipulation of your mana base if you want to fit these into a deck running more than 2 colors, especially if one of those colors isn't green for the mana fixing. (mana fixing ain't what it used to be...)
6/10 Mulch- allows you to mill while still being able to get the lands that you need to play spells. This is NOT to be underestimated. Mulch has been a consistently fantastic card and you should play no less than 4x in any list that runs G. Also, if you're someone who likes to maximize the amount of splash cards a deck like this can handle this along with birds of paradise is a must. The best thing is that even when it doesn't mill anything it will draw 4 cards. Talk about your draw power! Discarding down to 7 to let go of some sweet fatties turn 2 only to reanimate them turn 4 with unburial rites can be a devastatingly effective strategy. One negative aspect of this cards however is the fact that if you need to draw some game changing effect into your hand and you mill it with this, you might look a little silly. I tend to view this more as a mistake of deck design than as making a mistake playing mulch. (After all this IS Dredge!) 10/10 Forbidden Alchemy- going to be some of the best draw in standard. What's key is that this card is a great impersonator as mulches 5-8. The bonus is that late game, it also refuels your hand and pushes the deck with some extra reach. The bad thing about this card is the fact that it stretches you into extra colors. However since you're going to play the drownyard this isn't all bad. 8/10 Dream Twist- playing blue? Then consider the possibilities of dream twist. It's a solid draw spell impersonator plus it does its job twice (or once if milled definitely gets the nod over tome scour). The bad thing about this spell however is finding room for it as it can cut into your creature count. The trade off is that it mills you faster that most of your other spells though. 5/10 Curse of the Bloody Tome- one of the rare cards that will actually straight up mill you in standard. At best I suppose it could act as a phyrexian arena, at worst it does nothing. And in magic cards that do nothing are usually bad. The great thing about splinterfright and mindshrieker is that they affect the board and mill you while doing it. This just mills, but it could still find some use if it proves to be fast enough for a UB deck that doesn't want to splash G. 2/10 Ghoulcaller's Bell- Mills both you and your opponent. The repeatable effect is nice as is the fact that it isn't color inhibited. However the effect might do too little to be worth it. They say every little bit counts, but it is hard to see whether this or shriekhorn is better suited for this role. 4/10 Shriekhorn- Mills slightly quicker than ghoulcaller's Bell, but it runs out of steam after a little bit and then just becomes a useless a useless artifact on the field. The fact that it only costs 1 and it's colorless is interesting though. 4/10
+THE KILLERS Skaab Ruinator- potentially really powerful but mana cost keeps it restricted to when you can run it. He is huge, recursive, and doesn't die to dismember though. Could be this dredge's Extractor Demon, except that he is a card that can have a U// mana base at the most. Going more is potentially messing with his cast-ability. Also he needs the deck to run plenty of creatures in order to make him consistent. That being said if running him never do 4x I have found that typically 2x is good, though 3x is understandable. 4/10 Mindshrieker- extremely variable. That is the main problem and usually the hallmark of a bad magic card. It should be noted though that his low mana cost and evasion lave the door open for some decks. I suppose that it is possible to run this guy in a list but it would preferably be more of a U/ deck than any 3+ color monstrosity. 3/10 Splinterfright- a card that is probably underrated initially, but deceptively powerful. The fact that it mills your deck on its own accord is definitely a selling point as there are few cards in the current standard that do this. 5/10 Kessing Cage-Breakers- can become simply ridiculous. This card has the ability to produce a game ending army out of nowhere. However, like many creatures in the "dredge" lineup in needs creatures to do so. Also, this guy has slightly less immunity to removal than the other finishers, but he can be well worth it. 6/10
+THE THRILLERS Unburial Rites- honestly its hard to say something bad about this card. I've tested with it and it is the real deal. It will be a major force in the upcoming standard metagame. It makes people have to deal with a deck's bombs essentially 3x before the go away (generating a lot of card disadvantage for your opponent if they are 1 for 1ing you) or until you draw another one. Probably the worst thing about this card is splashing white which is hardly a disadvantage though as it offers you the chance to run sun titan in your deck which combined with this is an utter beating. 9/10 Vengeful Pharaoh- sometimes you just want a guy dead. That can be hard if your taking the chance to mill all of your removal off the top of your deck. Since we don't necessarily want to leave things to chance this dude can be a big game. There are two restrictions that make him a debatable inclusion though. First the mana cost. If you ever draw this guy you are going to be a sad camper if you don't have a looter, or zombie infestation, or something to get this sucker back to the graveyard. He could be great in a BG build, but is less of an outo include everywhere else. 4/10 Ambush Viper- if you want removal you got it. The bonus is that this removal spell is also a creature which compliments the rest of the deck's strategy. The potential to beatdown on the opponent should not be underestimated either. Flashing this in at eot is a great way to get ahead in the damage race and then have a blocker when you need it. 5/10
Also here are some other cards of notable interest in standard that may have been overlooked:
Bonehoard- A big dude that I think can be insane with the right build. Might need to have buried ruin available to get it back if milled though. Merfolk Looter- An oldie but goodie. Capable of getting those dudes you don't want from your hand to the 'yard and a feature card of dredge builds of the past. Jace's Archivist- A super merfolk looter? Draws your opponent cards too, but the windfall ability is pretty powerful and tuned perfectly for this deck. Here's hoping this guy can be an all-star. Vengeful Pharaoh- Removal is removal but the bonus is that this is a dude. Of course its somewhat disappointing when you see it in your hand, but with a reliable ways to get it into the yard this guy has some potential if you're going B. Tomescour- mostly overshadowed by dream twist but it does something unique that this deck capitalizes on so feel free to test it. Jace's Erasure- Does what curse of the bloody tome does somewhat except the trigger is reversed to prevent shenanigans with our favorite pharaoh.
How Do I Play This Archetype?
For those of you who want to get a more definitive depiction of how this archetype plays out here are some of my more personal views on the archetype. (Bear in mind the things I say about the deck below are still in the "testing stage" so my opinions on how the cards should play out could differ slightly from my initial evaluation...)
Initially when looking through cards to construct a dredge list, I complied all of the flashback cards and all of the "mill" cards together to see what a combination of the two would result in. However, even if you build a deck that can mill yourself perfectly you need to be prepared for a few things if you want your build to be competitive:
Q1. How do I win?
Q2. What if my opponent tries to win?
Q3. How consistent is this deck at doing what it does?
By asking yourself these questions you can avoid into some of the traps of deck building such as the appeal of "cool stuff" and Magicalchristmasland scenarios (which I admit as not being perfect I fall into myself sometimes...).
Now in order to get some answers to those questions I'll take a sample decklist that I've been trying out for the past week and pick it apart:
Here's the deck now lets get to the questions...
Q1-A: In the deck "It'sMillerTime" my strategy is to try to mill cards into my graveyard in order to reanimate a huge, "unstoppable" beast from my graveyard in order to win the game. Unburial Rites provides me with the ability to do this, though on occasion it is okay to just ramp out a fatty with enough acceleration as a solid plan B.
Q2-A: Usually I want my opponent to be responding to my threats (several times over thanks to unburial rites), but if my opponent does try to steal the game away I have removal that is always available even if milled (sever the bloodlines) and the removal is not conditional. It gets rid of a creature no questions asked and any copies of that creature as a bonus (Great when someone decides to try to ruin your day via phantasmal imaging a sun titan over and over again...). Also I have deathtouch creatures to answer any nasty duders who get out of hand.
Q3-A: Even though I am very greedy in running 4 colors, I have done what I can to give myself a viable manabase. This is obviously the weakest part of the deck as part of it doing what it does every game is having the resources necessary to do so. Obviously this is why I run 12 fixers in this deck to get my mana straightened out. If a deck is full of good cards but it can't play those cards it's worthless.
Obviously this is only one example and it is far from perfect, but hopefully it will serve to give you a guideline of how you should think when building this deck (or I suppose almost any deck for that matter).
Now that you have an idea of how the archetype works, the best thing about "dredge" is that there are several different styles in the dredge archetype. Just like swinging with zombie tokens or dreading back Iona in legacy, there are different ways to accomplish the same goal. Click the link below to see some examples of different standard dredge decks:
I know that it's pretty jankey and has a lot of four-ofs, but it's just something to get the wheels turning since I haven't gotten to try this out in real life or on cockatrice.
Now that you might have gotten some ideas from these sample lists please share your own. Once we get enough I can feature some of the "types" of builds on the front page.
Anyways, here's hoping we can make this a viable option in the new standard format. Now go wild!
I definitely like the idea. I am kind of worried that the Pharoah is such a dead draw costing BBB. Zombie Infestation is neat but I don't know how that would work out. I don't know how I feel about Mindshrieker yet. Like to know how it works out for you. There's a Necrotic Ooze + Civilized Scholar combo that could probably make some Big Splinterfrights and let you cast Skaab Ruinators all day long.
Let me know what you all think. It's pretty straightforward: Be aggressive with one drops. Set up with card draw. Little guys die. Play Ruinator, drake or Mindshrieker. The bird helps you a little with feeding the grave while still being an evasive attacker. The pike may not be something that stays, but I figure with all the card draw, graveyard feeding and counterspells, it could make your fliers pretty fierce, pretty quick.
Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
I tried this deck idea out this week and learned a few things. First, Splinterfrights and Skaab Ruinators are anti-synergistic with each other. One wants creatures in the grave and the other wants to use other creatures for something else. They have a hard time being in the same deck.
Second, I learned what cards to use to properly mill yourself.
Third, I learned that reanimator is viable with this set.
I wish there were better lands in this set but Shimmering Grotto is the best I can do for white mana sources 4-8.
The biggest thing we need to do is survive/beat aggro decks. Armored Skaab is great for this. Other possible cards include: Timely Reinforcements and Gnaw to the Bone. I haven't had a chance to try these yet.
Overall, I like where this is going.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing:
Standard: Valakut (soon to change)
Cool things about me:
*3rd at Idaho regionals 2011
*1st at Salt Lake City regionals 2007
*2006 Idaho state champion of Two-Headed-Giant
*3rd place in Idaho State champs in 2009
*Made day 2 in GP Seattle/Tacoma (115th place) 2009.
With changes in standard right around the corner and everyone geared up to test new decks.
For this reason I've decided to start a "dredge" deck thread to discuss builds for this up coming standard.
The idea of "dredge" is to mill yourself to gain card advantage out of your graveyard. I was hoping that this aspect would be easily exploitable thanks to Innistrad.
That being said, in Innistrad some cards for consideration are:
Nephelia Drownyard- recursive milling. Un-counterable (like that's necessary) and on a land. Might have potential. Skaab Ruinator- The real Hakkon. Wanna see this guy in action cause he's huge, recursive, and doesn't die to dismember. Mindshrieker- the most variable card on this list. Opinions vary on how good this guy will be and while certainly no tarmo Splinterfright- seems like a powerful creature (since it has built in evasion) and its a mortivore that fuels itself and the rest of the deck. Mulch- allows you to mill while still being able to get the lands that you need to play spells. Forbidden Alchemy- going to be some of the best draw in standard. And still usable if milled. Sounds good. Dream Twist- solid draw spell impersonation plus it does it job twice.
Some other cards of notable interest in standard: Bonehoard- A big dude that I think can be insane with the right build. Might need to have buried ruin available to get it back though if milled. Merfolk Looter- An oldie but goodie. Capable of getting those dudes you don't want from your hand to the 'yard. Vengeful Pharaoh- Removal is removal but this is a dude and probably necessary. Of course its somewhat disappointing to see in your hand, but with reliable ways to get it into the yard this guy has potential.
I know that it's pretty jankey, but after some playtesting I know it can become something great!
Here's hoping we can come up with something viable! Viva la standard!
Try cutting 2 Ruinators, 2 Pharaohs, and adding in Boneyard Wurms. Also, for your SB, you'll want Armored Skaabs in there if you're not running them main.
I hadn't thought of using the Pharaohs in my version, I think I shall, especially since they combo so well with the Mindshrieker. "Attack me? Ok, my Pharaoh kills your attacker, goes on my deck... During my upkeep, lets mill myself for 1 with Mindshrieker- Oh look, I now have a 6/6 flier."
Hey guys thanks for all of the feedback! Really awesome that I could draw some attention to a deck that I think will experience a resurgence.
Spoogee: No Snapcaster? If you are constantly milling yourself, he almost turns into a tutor effect.
Yeah I know. He's shaping up to be the poster-child of Innistrad. I do like him, and I think he *may* have a spot, but it's hard to tell and that will be a job for when it comes to fine tuning a list. Right now I'm just fleshing out the bones, so to speak.
This is what I'm going for as a fun tier 2 deck post rotation:
Let me know what you all think. It's pretty straightforward: Be aggressive with one drops. Set up with card draw. Little guys die. Play Ruinator, drake or Mindshrieker. The bird helps you a little with feeding the grave while still being an evasive attacker. The pike may not be something that stays, but I figure with all the card draw, graveyard feeding and counterspells, it could make your fliers pretty fierce, pretty quick.
Thoughts?
I like the initial idea, but I question the addition of a 2nd color. Seems like black would be decent in your build with forbidden alchemy. Milling (/filtering cards) should be key to a successful dredge deck so I think this addition would be wise.
dantheman7777: I tried this deck idea out this week and learned a few things. First, Splinterfrights and Skaab Ruinators are anti-synergistic with each other. One wants creatures in the grave and the other wants to use other creatures for something else. They have a hard time being in the same deck.
Second, I learned what cards to use to properly mill yourself.
Third, I learned that reanimator is viable with this set.
Nice insights Dan. I do like the mention of Armored Skaab in your list, something I had forgotten as well as the very powerful Unburial Rites. Combined with some mega-fatties like the ones you have I like where the list is going. Manabases are going to need some work though, which is a tough one.
The main troubles that I am running into testing a deck like this is the fact that, like I mentioned above, the mana fixing ain't what it used to be. Sphere of the Suns and sad robo (Solemn Simulacrum) are good options but they would need to fight for a slot in the list. With that in mind here's another option I'm looking at testing:
Seems like it should play fairly solidly. Needs to keep the creature count up and going green for BoP might be a solid way to smooth out mana troubles. Going to have to try this list to see what needs to be added like removal although this deck typically wants to pump out threats that your opponent can't answer.
Please post any new developments and keep the opinions/comments/ideas coming!
I like the initial idea, but I question the addition of a 2nd color. Seems like black would be decent in your build with forbidden alchemy. Milling (/filtering cards) should be key to a successful dredge deck so I think this addition would be wise.
I'm a bit unsure about what you're questioning. Did you mean that adding black would make it better? If so, I'm totally aware because it already has the capability to produce all of the black mana it needs. Between Nephalia Drownyard's ability and flashing back Forbidden Alchemy, only one black mana is needed for them. Given that the dual land and Shimmering Grotto are both present in the manabase, producing one black mana shouldn't be any kind of issue, especially when flashing back Forbidden Alchemy becomes an option later game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
I'm a bit unsure about what you're questioning. Did you mean that adding black would make it better? If so, I'm totally aware because it already has the capability to produce all of the black mana it needs. Between Nephalia Drownyard's ability and flashing back Forbidden Alchemy, only one black mana is needed for them. Given that the dual land and Shimmering Grotto are both present in the manabase, producing one black mana shouldn't be any kind of issue, especially when flashing back Forbidden Alchemy becomes an option later game.
Sorry for not being clear :embarrass:. I meant adding a full on black suite of cards, like Vengeful Pharaoh, to make the mana base more UB. I also think that your list may benefit from armored skaab.
The thing that I like about lists that include Skaab Ruinator is that it acts as this block's Vengevine. The more mill you have the more consistently you will be able to cast him early I believe.
I feel like Vengeful Pharoah's Cost is too much for the deck, and in order to mill it into your graveyard reliably you gotta be running 3 or more copies, which makes drawing it worthless. Armored Skaab is pretty rad for this deck, but my exclusion of it is simply due to the fact that I'm going for a much more aggressive build with evasive beaters. I think I can get the same results with card draw, and Snapcaster Mage as utility to recur Forbidden Alchemy at a discount.
I guess I look at it this way. I don't want to add too many black mana sources because it will make the deck less consistent, especially because of the turn one and two drops and also because the only black card that would get added makes for a pretty janky combo. Consistency is always the key when early pressure is something that helps the deck get into "power overwhelming" mode. Leaving an Insectile Aberration or two unchecked is serious business, so they need to kill it fast. That gives you even more creatures for the yard to exile and continue with the second half of the beating. Ruinator requires a lot of creatures, so running as many cheap aggressive creatures as possible (that are meant to die, at that) is a great thing. Also, synergy synergy synergy!
~Cheers
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
I guess I look at it this way. I don't want to add too many black mana sources because it will make the deck less consistent, especially because of the turn one and two drops and also because the only black card that would get added makes for a pretty janky combo. Consistency is always the key when early pressure is something that helps the deck get into "power overwhelming" mode. Leaving an Insectile Aberration or two unchecked is serious business, so they need to kill it fast. That gives you even more creatures for the yard to exile and continue with the second half of the beating. Ruinator requires a lot of creatures, so running as many cheap aggressive creatures as possible (that are meant to die, at that) is a great thing. Also, synergy synergy synergy!
~Cheers
True, true, I agree with your position, but I was just thinking it could be designed to be faster/more efficient with a tinge more black since you could run a full complement of duals. It seems a waste simply to utilize those lands for the flashback cost of Forbidden Alchemy.
Anyways they say a picture is worth 1,000 words. Since I don't have a picture to show, I'll just have to give you my take on the same "style" deck.
I think that the key changes are putting in the following key cards: Invisible Stalker- There is probably no better card to equip with a bonehoard than this guy. He just says gg, especially since if your opponent has a sac effect you could just recur reassembling skeleton to sac in order to protect it. Bonehoard- a more synergistic equipment than Runechanter's Pike for the deck. It aims to bolster your attackers more than that equipment anyway if you keep your creature count high. Reassembling Skeleton- One of the main reasons that I wanted pure aggro assault versions to go black. Even though we don't get to use Bloodghast anymore we still have this guy as a re-occurring threat that we can equip.
for Delver of Secrets- very aggressive. However could be some trouble to flip and I want to get in there! Not sure if this guy is good in this style of deck, but yes, certainly aggro. Phantasmal Bear-again, very aggressive guy that goes in for good beats. However I am very sad when I try to equip him.
Anyways the point is that I think focusing on self-mill is the fastest way to win by bringing out your huge threats.
In terms of an aggressive strategy regarding your decklist, could you give an example of a good first 5 turns?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
Well since I haven't tested the deck against anything yet (cards aren't available to play test on any website I know of) the construction of this deck is mostly based on untested theory without any evidence to beck it up.
However I will try to give you a typical scenario of how I expect the deck to play through.
Best first 5 turns:
T1: Play Darkslick shores. Use Dream Twist to mill Ruinator, Reassembling Skeleton, Vampire Interloper
T2: Play an Island. Play Invisible Stalker.
T3: Play a Buried Ruin. Use it to cast Forbidden Alchemy EOT of your opponent. Mill Dream Twist, Armor Skaab, and Island. Keep Bonehoard.
T4: Play Island. Play a Bonehoard.
T5: Play Island Equip Bonehoard. Use flashback of Dream Twist to mill 3 more creatures. Swing for 8 dmg.
Rinse and repeat with creature backup (Skaab Ruinator, and Reassembling Skeleton) in order to kill opponent.
Now from turn four from this typical scenario you have plenty of options as the situation calls for it. You can get a ruinator back, go for the bonehoard/invisible stalker plan, or get tumble magnet to get defensive. The main thing is to play whatever you think your opponent has the least chance of answering. However, without the ability to play test this version of the deck, it is hard to proceed further as I'm sure that your play will also be shaped by what your opponent has done by T4.
However I'd still like to investigate the possibility of a 3-color b/G/U deck. Splashing black mainly for the flashback effect and maybe some removal.
It seems to me that green would be really good in this type of deck. Mulch, birds of paradise, and boneyard wurm seem really good. I understand that boneyard wurm and scaab ruinator don't mix well, but green still seems worth it. Just my $.02
This a good hand: 2 lands, delver of secrets, phantasmal bear, ponder, forbidden alchemy, Drake
Turn 1- Land, ponder (into utility such as Snapcaster mage, then rearrange leaving a land at the top, an instant or sorcery second from the top, then whatever. Would be lucky to see a counterspell at this point)
Turn 2- Land, Delver, Bear
Turn 3- Land, Forbidden Alchemy(grab a land, dump creatures) Swing with Aberration and Bear (by now, one of these may have been answered)
Turn 4- Land, Skaab ruinator, and something CMC1, Swing with Aberration and Bear (by now, one of these have probably been answered)
Turn 5- Land, Stitched Drake if you have the counterspell in hand or snapcast back forbidden alchemy
If none of your stuff has been answered, they are dead. If it has, more fuel for Ruinator and Drake. From there, anything you top deck is worth it's weight.
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
Has anyone in the Forum thought about runningNecrotic Ooze, paired with Mirror-Mad Phantasm, to mill yourself completely at instant speed and then have a Laboratory Maniac for the win? I would assume that you would run all the Looter effects and the Probe for the draw in case your opponent went for a Doom Blade effect.
Any thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dredge players don't play MtG, we play Dredge.
Decks:
EDH: I abide by no ban list for EDH. RUGIntet, the Land CrusherRUG
Standard: Shockland, shockland, mythic spell I win
Legacy: WUBRGDredgeWUBRG
Extended: UBGDredgeUBG (R.I.P July 1st 2010)
Has anyone in the Forum thought about runningNecrotic Ooze, paired with Mirror-Mad Phantasm, to mill yourself completely at instant speed and then have a Laboratory Maniac for the win? I would assume that you would run all the Looter effects and the Probe for the draw in case your opponent went for a Doom Blade effect.
Any thoughts?
So I imagine the combo you're talking about is in reference to this one?: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=357886
Did a little searching around the forums when you mentioned that.
From what I can gather the procedure is
1. Get Mirror-Mad Phantasm into play (or in graveyard with necrotic ooze strategy).
2. Use some clone effect on it.
3. Activate the clone's ability.
4. Mill yourself.
5. Win with the good doctor=Labratory Maniac
While I admit that it looks like it has some potential since it can go off at instant speed I just want to address some problems that might come up:
- Only one Phantasm in deck to combo with
- No reliable way to tutor for the card you need to do the combo before you mill yourself. (I assume it would be a dredge version of the deck.)
- Relies on more than two cards (3) to work properly and lacks the benefit of tutors.
- They can remove the Laboratory Maniac and then it's you who's screwed.
I am curious to see a decklist implementing this strategy but keep in mind that it should follow the "dredge rule" which is that the primary focus of the deck should be self-millage.
If you get the time to post one up I'd be happy to look at a list oh Dark-one.
Ah, thanks for sharing Vex
(click below to see list)
This a good hand: 2 lands, delver of secrets, phantasmal bear, ponder, forbidden alchemy, Drake
Turn 1- Land, ponder (into utility such as Snapcaster mage, then rearrange leaving a land at the top, an instant or sorcery second from the top, then whatever. Would be lucky to see a counterspell at this point)
Turn 2- Land, Delver, Bear
Turn 3- Land, Forbidden Alchemy(grab a land, dump creatures) Swing with Aberration and Bear (by now, one of these may have been answered)
Turn 4- Land, Skaab ruinator, and something CMC1, Swing with Aberration and Bear (by now, one of these have probably been answered)
Turn 5- Land, Stitched Drake if you have the counterspell in hand or snapcast back forbidden alchemy
If none of your stuff has been answered, they are dead. If it has, more fuel for Ruinator and Drake. From there, anything you top deck is worth it's weight.
The list seems decent but I think that the deck might be trying to be something that it is not. In your deck I see more of an aggro build. One that utilizes the power of Delver of Secrets and Phantasmal Bear as big swing-y turn 1 plays. It seems to be far more concerned about attacking than stockpiling the graveyard with resources. Seems like your deck might be better of R/U, splashing for Grim Lavamancer, Incinerate, and other spells that help sling damage and flip Delver.
The reason I say this is that some key differences between my build and yours are:
-In my list I try to start the milling on turn one.
-In your list the only milling that occurs is the "pitch" to Forbidden Alchemy.
-In my list the graveyard is my major resource.
-In your list you generate "card advantage" by laying dudes.
-In my list I use cards that mill.
-In your list you have 1 card that mills. Mindshrieker. And with the low CC of your cards what are you expecting to hit.
-In my list I hope to cast Skaab Ruinator almost exclusively from the graveyard.
-In your list its okay to have a Ruinator ruin your day be being in your hand.
With that being said there's nothing overtly wrong with your list but it does make me wonder if you want it to be a dredge deck or something else. Blue weenie aggro is fine but this style deck should effectively "draw" cards by milling them.
Once I get to testing, thing will be a lot more clear anyways. Like should we even be running 4 Skaab Ruinators? Is 3 better? I don't want to drop below 20 creatures in most builds so what other creatures should I be playing? Is ponder worth it to preview what you're milling?
All these questions will probably be answered through testing.
I intend it to be graveyard-based aggro. The creatures I chose are super cheap for their bodies, so it encourages faster drops towards the beginning, so that they are reacted to and hit the GY. I'm running 23 creatures, so recurring a Ruinator is almost no biggie. Nephalia Drownyard has proven to be invaluable alongside Snapcaster and Ruinator for instants/sorceries and creatures respectively.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. Good Decks Play With Good Cards
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
I've been trying to make a dredge deck since innistrad got spoilers started coming in. My current UB list (pre-Inn) Im using Jace's Archivist to dredge myself and to restock my hand. My targets for dredge are usually reassembling skeleton and vengeful pharaoh. I usually win with recurring my skeletons to stall out the game and dropping a grave titan, or the black preator (sholedred? i think it was), and gaining disrupting my opponents hand with archivist while drawing cards with Visions.
With Inn coming into standard, I really hope this archtype takes off. So here are a few of my suggestion,
1) 2-3 Ruinators should be enough, the 3 creature cost is actually pretty high and we probably shouldn't be doing this until late game.
2) with all the mill cards now, jace's archivist is not as necessary. That being said, it is an amazing way to get stuff in your hand in your yard and give you a full grip again.
3) Reassmbling Skeletons are amazing =)
4) UB is great, but green has some pretty good cards. (mulch, boneyard wurm, splinterfright). It seems that green would be a better colour choice is we wanted to be aggro and less control.
5) dredge needs reanimation, might i suggest postmortem lunge? lunge + cagebreakers (the green card that gives wolf tokens when it attacks) seem pretty game changing.
6) this one a bit more random, but has anyone thought about white. we get access unburial rites, and sun titan. just a thought
The list is much more aggro oriented then many of the other lists. Despite the low cost of most of the creatures it is deceptively a midgame deck. I'm lacking a one drop, but frankly, none of the one drops are really worth a slot in the deck anyways. Bears are okay but they're a dead drop after turn one and boneyard wurm is better mid game. Elves/birds are okay but the only thing I'm accelerating into is an Acidic Slime, and again they're dead drops late game. I am still playing around with the deck a lot; however, I've been consistently beating both aggro and control. Control is simply a matter of paitence, the more creatures that are countered the more efficient the other creatures become, and there isn't enough reliable counters to stop the deck. When it comes to aggro, my creatures are simply bigger and more effiecient. If they're not running counters I get to mulch + snapcaster all day long. I suspect RDW will be an issue, but I haven't faced it except for a few poorly played versions, and that is why Mental Misstep is in the sideboard.
It's hard to decide what utility spells to play since the format is so random right now. I'm not sold on visions, but if I draw it early I cycle it, and if there is one in the graveyard when I hit 20 cards it wins games. Also, Noxious Revival is amazing. There's so many possibilities for the deck it's a little frustrating. I would like to play mana ramp because snapcasting mulch turn three is a great feeling, but the rampers are dead draws after turn one. I'm not sold on Aether Adept but bounce offers a lot of utility, and I like that it keeps the creature count high.
I don't like Skaab Ruinator because he has horrible synergy with the deck, self-milling aside. I dislike Mindshrieker because he is unreliable and my mana curve is extremely low. I will take a Skinshifter over a Mindshrieker every day. I am not very impressed with Armored Skaag or Dream Twist.
I think there's a couple ways to go about making this sort of deck, and this sort of leads to two differents decks and strategies. I see some other versions of this, specifically those that want to take advantage of Splinterfright, which function through building their graveyard up as big as they can. I'm less interested in a sizeable graveyard than I am simply using it as a utility. I don't really care about dumping a lot of cards in there; I just need enough to be casting my skaabs.
As this deck is pretty heavily blue, I don't really ever want to cast Pharaoh, because I probably won't be able to. However, I'm less worried about drawing him than others have been. Between the looter and zombie infestation, he can be a surprize graveyard dweller to some attacking creatures. The Assistant, about whom I'm a little uncertain still, helps make sure I don't draw that uncastable vengeful fellow when he returns to the top of my library.
I really like Zombie Infestation in here as well. I have fun with that card just in general, and in here it's my real reason for the black. An ideal opening hand has both the Infestation and the Ruinator, with the former coming down on turn two and immediately grant me two 2/2 zombie jerks when I pitch Ruinator and three of his pals, then on turn three I'll swing with my jerks on the ground and cast the Ruinator.
Any thoughts are welcome. I would have liked to get Ponder in here, for example, but I don't know that I have room.
I think there's a couple ways to go about making this sort of deck, and this sort of leads to two differents decks and strategies. I see some other versions of this, specifically those that want to take advantage of Splinterfright, which function through building their graveyard up as big as they can. I'm less interested in a sizeable graveyard than I am simply using it as a utility. I don't really care about dumping a lot of cards in there; I just need enough to be casting my skaabs.
As this deck is pretty heavily blue, I don't really ever want to cast Pharaoh, because I probably won't be able to. However, I'm less worried about drawing him than others have been. Between the looter and zombie infestation, he can be a surprize graveyard dweller to some attacking creatures. The Assistant, about whom I'm a little uncertain still, helps make sure I don't draw that uncastable vengeful fellow when he returns to the top of my library.
I really like Zombie Infestation in here as well. I have fun with that card just in general, and in here it's my real reason for the black. An ideal opening hand has both the Infestation and the Ruinator, with the former coming down on turn two and immediately grant me two 2/2 zombie jerks when I pitch Ruinator and three of his pals, then on turn three I'll swing with my jerks on the ground and cast the Ruinator.
Any thoughts are welcome. I would have liked to get Ponder in here, for example, but I don't know that I have room.
Hmmm interesting list here spinalv. I was wondering about playing zombie infestation in a dredge style deck although I feel like that card would lean more towards a control (or upper mid-range) build than an aggro one. If it works like how you describe that would be key though (looking forward to testing it out). Initially, it seems like this type of build is the same one that Vex has advocated. Small beaters and heavy recursive finishers to try to take your opponent down. I also was wondering about the decision to use doom blade in this style of deck. In my builds the deck used tumble magnet as the main removal as I just want guys out of the way and once the magnet is milled I can get it back with a buried ruin.
A few adjustment are possible however. As Psisous pointed out I'm not sure if we'll ever need all four of the Skaab Ruinators, but I still want to consistently mill them. My suggestion is going to be keeping them at 3 for now because we don't really want to draw them and we don't want all of them to fight over which cards to exile.
Secondly, I believe that Vengeful Pharaoh is basically for mid-range and up. You really don't want him in the opener or to draw into them ever (which is what the Dream Twists are good for. I might suggest running two or three of them in a build like this.
Also, can someone explain why the love for spectral bear? I feel like the guy isn't really that great as although he is really aggressive, he is outclassed easily and would die to getting targeted by a tumble magnet or the like. I just don't know if I like a guy that's non-evasive, can't be equipped, and doesn't mesh well with the rest of the deck. If you wanted a beater wouldn't Invisible stalker just be a better choice with equipment (not that I would run him in your deck though spinalv.)
The list is much more aggro oriented then many of the other lists. Despite the low cost of most of the creatures it is deceptively a midgame deck. I'm lacking a one drop, but frankly, none of the one drops are really worth a slot in the deck anyways. Bears are okay but they're a dead drop after turn one and boneyard wurm is better mid game. Elves/birds are okay but the only thing I'm accelerating into is an Acidic Slime, and again they're dead drops late game. I am still playing around with the deck a lot; however, I've been consistently beating both aggro and control. Control is simply a matter of paitence, the more creatures that are countered the more efficient the other creatures become, and there isn't enough reliable counters to stop the deck. When it comes to aggro, my creatures are simply bigger and more effiecient. If they're not running counters I get to mulch + snapcaster all day long. I suspect RDW will be an issue, but I haven't faced it except for a few poorly played versions, and that is why Mental Misstep is in the sideboard.
It's hard to decide what utility spells to play since the format is so random right now. I'm not sold on visions, but if I draw it early I cycle it, and if there is one in the graveyard when I hit 20 cards it wins games. Also, Noxious Revival is amazing. There's so many possibilities for the deck it's a little frustrating. I would like to play mana ramp because snapcasting mulch turn three is a great feeling, but the rampers are dead draws after turn one. I'm not sold on Aether Adept but bounce offers a lot of utility, and I like that it keeps the creature count high.
I don't like Skaab Ruinator because he has horrible synergy with the deck, self-milling aside. I dislike Mindshrieker because he is unreliable and my mana curve is extremely low. I will take a Skinshifter over a Mindshrieker every day. I am not very impressed with Armored Skaag or Dream Twist.
Nice predictions (I'm sure if RDW is anything like past incarnations it will be a hassle, but fortunately it won't have lightning bolt...) and looks similar to what I was thinking an incarnation of this deck would look like. Definitely more "uses the graveyard as a resource."
I also agree with you about Mindshrieker. Seems too variable as there is no way to keep it consistently pumped. However I disagree about the Skaab Ruinator. I believe that he has a place in the deck simply because he gives so much reach late game being a recursive body that just keeps coming back for more. I think that I might try to fit 2 in this style of build. As far as the rest goes I also concede that noxious revival could be an excellent card to add to this build and that the Aether Adept does do a good "removal" impression while keeping the creature count up. I don't think that we should dismiss Dream Twist though as it seems pretty sweet especially since it has flashback.
Sweet to see all this you guys, hope to post up another list soon!
:symg::symu: Standard "Dredge" Primer :symu::symg:
---
The dredge primer has moved! To view the current primer on the developing competitive UG Standard Dredge deck, follow this link here.
Many thanks sene!
WGBRU Standard "Dredge" URBGW
kickin' it old school new school style in type II
Innistrad is here to shake up standard and I'm sure everyone is geared up to test new decks.
The reason you're here though is because you're probably the guy who realized that cards in the graveyard can be as good as cards in the hand and wanted to put that little insight to good use.
But what is this term dredge? For inquiring minds here is a very brief summary of what dredge means in the world of magic.
-Historically, dredge was a deck built around a mechanic of the same that would force a player to mill themselves in order to generate a unique form of "card advantage." Typically these degenerate builds would implement powerful cards like Dread Return and Bridge from Below to kill their opponents in combo like fashion.
-Later circa Shards block standard, dredge was revived in a new incarnation. Most commonly know for the dredge-e-vine variants that were most powerful a combination of looters and graveyard beasties (Vengevine/Extractor Demon) served as the basis for a deck that smashed face. The key was to mill or discard your fatties and then recur a bunch of them on the cheap for massive beats.
-This standard season I am hoping for a revival of this archetype and the reason I've decided to start a "dredge" deck thread through which discuss builds and share thoughts on individual cards.
What Cards Are Available?
Now that we've seen a precedent set by past builds it's time to look at some possibilities:
-(UPDATE 10/11/11: Started playing with the deck more and more now implementing a "rating system" for the cards that I've tried and how useful they are to this type of deck on a scale of 1-10.)
+THE MILLERS:
Nephelia Drownyard- recursive milling that doesn't net any card disadvantage. Beside being un-counterable (as though someone would counter you milling yourself... who knows...) the incremental advantage that this card brings is well worth it. If your run a BUG, UB, or monoU list you should seriously think about fitting 2-4 of these in. Even in a WGB list I was not disappointed whenever I drew into this. The potential downside of this is that if you run a lot of splashes this can potentially mess with your mana base. It will require careful manipulation of your mana base if you want to fit these into a deck running more than 2 colors, especially if one of those colors isn't green for the mana fixing. (mana fixing ain't what it used to be...)
6/10
Mulch- allows you to mill while still being able to get the lands that you need to play spells. This is NOT to be underestimated. Mulch has been a consistently fantastic card and you should play no less than 4x in any list that runs G. Also, if you're someone who likes to maximize the amount of splash cards a deck like this can handle this along with birds of paradise is a must. The best thing is that even when it doesn't mill anything it will draw 4 cards. Talk about your draw power! Discarding down to 7 to let go of some sweet fatties turn 2 only to reanimate them turn 4 with unburial rites can be a devastatingly effective strategy. One negative aspect of this cards however is the fact that if you need to draw some game changing effect into your hand and you mill it with this, you might look a little silly. I tend to view this more as a mistake of deck design than as making a mistake playing mulch. (After all this IS Dredge!) 10/10
Forbidden Alchemy- going to be some of the best draw in standard. What's key is that this card is a great impersonator as mulches 5-8. The bonus is that late game, it also refuels your hand and pushes the deck with some extra reach. The bad thing about this card is the fact that it stretches you into extra colors. However since you're going to play the drownyard this isn't all bad. 8/10
Dream Twist- playing blue? Then consider the possibilities of dream twist. It's a solid draw spell impersonator plus it does its job twice (or once if milled definitely gets the nod over tome scour). The bad thing about this spell however is finding room for it as it can cut into your creature count. The trade off is that it mills you faster that most of your other spells though. 5/10
Curse of the Bloody Tome- one of the rare cards that will actually straight up mill you in standard. At best I suppose it could act as a phyrexian arena, at worst it does nothing. And in magic cards that do nothing are usually bad. The great thing about splinterfright and mindshrieker is that they affect the board and mill you while doing it. This just mills, but it could still find some use if it proves to be fast enough for a UB deck that doesn't want to splash G. 2/10
Ghoulcaller's Bell- Mills both you and your opponent. The repeatable effect is nice as is the fact that it isn't color inhibited. However the effect might do too little to be worth it. They say every little bit counts, but it is hard to see whether this or shriekhorn is better suited for this role. 4/10
Shriekhorn- Mills slightly quicker than ghoulcaller's Bell, but it runs out of steam after a little bit and then just becomes a useless a useless artifact on the field. The fact that it only costs 1 and it's colorless is interesting though. 4/10
+THE KILLERS
Skaab Ruinator- potentially really powerful but mana cost keeps it restricted to when you can run it. He is huge, recursive, and doesn't die to dismember though. Could be this dredge's Extractor Demon, except that he is a card that can have a U// mana base at the most. Going more is potentially messing with his cast-ability. Also he needs the deck to run plenty of creatures in order to make him consistent. That being said if running him never do 4x I have found that typically 2x is good, though 3x is understandable. 4/10
Mindshrieker- extremely variable. That is the main problem and usually the hallmark of a bad magic card. It should be noted though that his low mana cost and evasion lave the door open for some decks. I suppose that it is possible to run this guy in a list but it would preferably be more of a U/ deck than any 3+ color monstrosity. 3/10
Splinterfright- a card that is probably underrated initially, but deceptively powerful. The fact that it mills your deck on its own accord is definitely a selling point as there are few cards in the current standard that do this. 5/10
Kessing Cage-Breakers- can become simply ridiculous. This card has the ability to produce a game ending army out of nowhere. However, like many creatures in the "dredge" lineup in needs creatures to do so. Also, this guy has slightly less immunity to removal than the other finishers, but he can be well worth it. 6/10
+THE THRILLERS
Unburial Rites- honestly its hard to say something bad about this card. I've tested with it and it is the real deal. It will be a major force in the upcoming standard metagame. It makes people have to deal with a deck's bombs essentially 3x before the go away (generating a lot of card disadvantage for your opponent if they are 1 for 1ing you) or until you draw another one. Probably the worst thing about this card is splashing white which is hardly a disadvantage though as it offers you the chance to run sun titan in your deck which combined with this is an utter beating. 9/10
Vengeful Pharaoh- sometimes you just want a guy dead. That can be hard if your taking the chance to mill all of your removal off the top of your deck. Since we don't necessarily want to leave things to chance this dude can be a big game. There are two restrictions that make him a debatable inclusion though. First the mana cost. If you ever draw this guy you are going to be a sad camper if you don't have a looter, or zombie infestation, or something to get this sucker back to the graveyard. He could be great in a BG build, but is less of an outo include everywhere else. 4/10
Ambush Viper- if you want removal you got it. The bonus is that this removal spell is also a creature which compliments the rest of the deck's strategy. The potential to beatdown on the opponent should not be underestimated either. Flashing this in at eot is a great way to get ahead in the damage race and then have a blocker when you need it. 5/10
Also here are some other cards of notable interest in standard that may have been overlooked:
Bonehoard- A big dude that I think can be insane with the right build. Might need to have buried ruin available to get it back if milled though.
Merfolk Looter- An oldie but goodie. Capable of getting those dudes you don't want from your hand to the 'yard and a feature card of dredge builds of the past.
Jace's Archivist- A super merfolk looter? Draws your opponent cards too, but the windfall ability is pretty powerful and tuned perfectly for this deck. Here's hoping this guy can be an all-star.
Vengeful Pharaoh- Removal is removal but the bonus is that this is a dude. Of course its somewhat disappointing when you see it in your hand, but with a reliable ways to get it into the yard this guy has some potential if you're going B.
Tomescour- mostly overshadowed by dream twist but it does something unique that this deck capitalizes on so feel free to test it.
Jace's Erasure- Does what curse of the bloody tome does somewhat except the trigger is reversed to prevent shenanigans with our favorite pharaoh.
How Do I Play This Archetype?
For those of you who want to get a more definitive depiction of how this archetype plays out here are some of my more personal views on the archetype. (Bear in mind the things I say about the deck below are still in the "testing stage" so my opinions on how the cards should play out could differ slightly from my initial evaluation...)
Initially when looking through cards to construct a dredge list, I complied all of the flashback cards and all of the "mill" cards together to see what a combination of the two would result in. However, even if you build a deck that can mill yourself perfectly you need to be prepared for a few things if you want your build to be competitive:
Q1. How do I win?
Q2. What if my opponent tries to win?
Q3. How consistent is this deck at doing what it does?
By asking yourself these questions you can avoid into some of the traps of deck building such as the appeal of "cool stuff" and Magicalchristmasland scenarios (which I admit as not being perfect I fall into myself sometimes...).
Now in order to get some answers to those questions I'll take a sample decklist that I've been trying out for the past week and pick it apart:
Land-23
3x Nephilia Drownyard
2x Drowned Catacomb
3x Hinterland Harbor
3x Woodland Cemetery
2x Shimmering Grotto
7x Forests
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Ambush Viper
4x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Skaab Ruinator
3x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Sheoldred, the Whispering One
4x Mulch
4x Unburial Rites
3x Sever the Bloodlines
Here's the deck now lets get to the questions...
Q1-A: In the deck "It'sMillerTime" my strategy is to try to mill cards into my graveyard in order to reanimate a huge, "unstoppable" beast from my graveyard in order to win the game. Unburial Rites provides me with the ability to do this, though on occasion it is okay to just ramp out a fatty with enough acceleration as a solid plan B.
Q2-A: Usually I want my opponent to be responding to my threats (several times over thanks to unburial rites), but if my opponent does try to steal the game away I have removal that is always available even if milled (sever the bloodlines) and the removal is not conditional. It gets rid of a creature no questions asked and any copies of that creature as a bonus (Great when someone decides to try to ruin your day via phantasmal imaging a sun titan over and over again...). Also I have deathtouch creatures to answer any nasty duders who get out of hand.
Q3-A: Even though I am very greedy in running 4 colors, I have done what I can to give myself a viable manabase. This is obviously the weakest part of the deck as part of it doing what it does every game is having the resources necessary to do so. Obviously this is why I run 12 fixers in this deck to get my mana straightened out. If a deck is full of good cards but it can't play those cards it's worthless.
Obviously this is only one example and it is far from perfect, but hopefully it will serve to give you a guideline of how you should think when building this deck (or I suppose almost any deck for that matter).
Now that you have an idea of how the archetype works, the best thing about "dredge" is that there are several different styles in the dredge archetype. Just like swinging with zombie tokens or dreading back Iona in legacy, there are different ways to accomplish the same goal. Click the link below to see some examples of different standard dredge decks:
INITIAL BUG list from the thread's beginning:
2x Buried Ruin
2x Nephelia Drownyard
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Hinterland Harbor
7x Island
4x Forest
2x Swamp
4x Mindshrieker
4x Splinterfright
4x Skaab Ruinator
4x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Vengeful Pharaoh
4x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Mulch
I know that it's pretty jankey and has a lot of four-ofs, but it's just something to get the wheels turning since I haven't gotten to try this out in real life or on cockatrice.
Aggro Lists
Aggressive Dredge- by vexxillion
4 Skaab Ruinator
4 Delver of secrets
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Mindshrieker
3 Stitched Drake
2 Merfolk looter
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mana Leak
12 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Shimmering Grotto
Mid-range Lists
BoneEater- by IRranger
Lands
2x Buried Ruin
2x Drowned Catacombs
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Woodland Cemetery
1x Swamp
4x Island
7x Forest
4x Merfolk Looter
3x Armored Skaab
4x Splinterfrieght
4x Solemn Simulacrum
2x Vengeful Pharaoh
3x Tumble Magnet
3x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Mulch
Control Lists
Dredge Re-animator- by dantheman7777
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Shimmering Grotto
2 Nephalia Drownyard
6 Island
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Go for the Throat
4 Unburial Rites
4 Merfolk Looter
4 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Sheoldred, Whispering One
Combo Lists
Combo Dredge- by always.
Creatures 24
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Boneyard Wurm
4 Splinterfright
4 Merfolk Looter
3 Jace's Archivist
1 Kessig Cagebreakers
1 Mirror-Mad Phantasm
3 Necrotic Ooze
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Think Twice
3 Dismember
3 Woodland Cemetery
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Drowned Catacombs
8 Forests
6 Islands
Now that you might have gotten some ideas from these sample lists please share your own. Once we get enough I can feature some of the "types" of builds on the front page.
Anyways, here's hoping we can make this a viable option in the new standard format. Now go wild!
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
4 Skaab Ruinator
4 Delver of secrets
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Mindshrieker
3 Stitched Drake
3 Merfolk looter
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mana Leak
Equipment:
2 Ruinchanter's Pike
12 Island
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Shimmering Grotto
Let me know what you all think. It's pretty straightforward: Be aggressive with one drops. Set up with card draw. Little guys die. Play Ruinator, drake or Mindshrieker. The bird helps you a little with feeding the grave while still being an evasive attacker. The pike may not be something that stays, but I figure with all the card draw, graveyard feeding and counterspells, it could make your fliers pretty fierce, pretty quick.
Thoughts?
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
~Metamorph
Second, I learned what cards to use to properly mill yourself.
Third, I learned that reanimator is viable with this set.
Here's the list I'm currently toying with now:
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Shimmering Grotto
2 Nephalia Drownyard
6 Island
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Go for the Throat
4 Unburial Rites
4 Merfolk Looter
4 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Sheoldred, Whispering One
The mill package is Dream Twist, Forbidden Alchemy, Merfolk Looter and Armored Skaag. This is enough to get things going.
I wish there were better lands in this set but Shimmering Grotto is the best I can do for white mana sources 4-8.
The biggest thing we need to do is survive/beat aggro decks. Armored Skaab is great for this. Other possible cards include: Timely Reinforcements and Gnaw to the Bone. I haven't had a chance to try these yet.
Overall, I like where this is going.
Standard: Valakut (soon to change)
Cool things about me:
*3rd at Idaho regionals 2011
*1st at Salt Lake City regionals 2007
*2006 Idaho state champion of Two-Headed-Giant
*3rd place in Idaho State champs in 2009
*Made day 2 in GP Seattle/Tacoma (115th place) 2009.
Try cutting 2 Ruinators, 2 Pharaohs, and adding in Boneyard Wurms. Also, for your SB, you'll want Armored Skaabs in there if you're not running them main.
I hadn't thought of using the Pharaohs in my version, I think I shall, especially since they combo so well with the Mindshrieker. "Attack me? Ok, my Pharaoh kills your attacker, goes on my deck... During my upkeep, lets mill myself for 1 with Mindshrieker- Oh look, I now have a 6/6 flier."
Hey guys thanks for all of the feedback! Really awesome that I could draw some attention to a deck that I think will experience a resurgence.
Yeah I know. He's shaping up to be the poster-child of Innistrad. I do like him, and I think he *may* have a spot, but it's hard to tell and that will be a job for when it comes to fine tuning a list. Right now I'm just fleshing out the bones, so to speak.
I like the initial idea, but I question the addition of a 2nd color. Seems like black would be decent in your build with forbidden alchemy. Milling (/filtering cards) should be key to a successful dredge deck so I think this addition would be wise.
Nice insights Dan. I do like the mention of Armored Skaab in your list, something I had forgotten as well as the very powerful Unburial Rites. Combined with some mega-fatties like the ones you have I like where the list is going. Manabases are going to need some work though, which is a tough one.
The main troubles that I am running into testing a deck like this is the fact that, like I mentioned above, the mana fixing ain't what it used to be.
Sphere of the Suns and sad robo (Solemn Simulacrum) are good options but they would need to fight for a slot in the list. With that in mind here's another option I'm looking at testing:
3x Buried Ruin
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Woodland Cemetery
2x Drowned Catacombs (darkslick shores?)
8x Forest
5x Island
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Merfolk Looter
4x Boneyard Wurm
4x Armored Skaab
4x Splinterfright
2x Bonehoard
2x Tumble Magnet
Sorceries-4
4x Mulch
Instants-6
3x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Dream Twist
Seems like it should play fairly solidly. Needs to keep the creature count up and going green for BoP might be a solid way to smooth out mana troubles. Going to have to try this list to see what needs to be added like removal although this deck typically wants to pump out threats that your opponent can't answer.
Please post any new developments and keep the opinions/comments/ideas coming!
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
I'm a bit unsure about what you're questioning. Did you mean that adding black would make it better? If so, I'm totally aware because it already has the capability to produce all of the black mana it needs. Between Nephalia Drownyard's ability and flashing back Forbidden Alchemy, only one black mana is needed for them. Given that the dual land and Shimmering Grotto are both present in the manabase, producing one black mana shouldn't be any kind of issue, especially when flashing back Forbidden Alchemy becomes an option later game.
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
~Metamorph
Sorry for not being clear :embarrass:. I meant adding a full on black suite of cards, like Vengeful Pharaoh, to make the mana base more UB. I also think that your list may benefit from armored skaab.
The thing that I like about lists that include Skaab Ruinator is that it acts as this block's Vengevine. The more mill you have the more consistently you will be able to cast him early I believe.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
I guess I look at it this way. I don't want to add too many black mana sources because it will make the deck less consistent, especially because of the turn one and two drops and also because the only black card that would get added makes for a pretty janky combo. Consistency is always the key when early pressure is something that helps the deck get into "power overwhelming" mode. Leaving an Insectile Aberration or two unchecked is serious business, so they need to kill it fast. That gives you even more creatures for the yard to exile and continue with the second half of the beating. Ruinator requires a lot of creatures, so running as many cheap aggressive creatures as possible (that are meant to die, at that) is a great thing. Also, synergy synergy synergy!
~Cheers
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
~Metamorph
True, true, I agree with your position, but I was just thinking it could be designed to be faster/more efficient with a tinge more black since you could run a full complement of duals. It seems a waste simply to utilize those lands for the flashback cost of Forbidden Alchemy.
Anyways they say a picture is worth 1,000 words. Since I don't have a picture to show, I'll just have to give you my take on the same "style" deck.
4x Skaab Ruinator
4x Armored Skaab
4x Reassembling Skeleton
4x Invisible Stalker
4x Vampire Interloper
4x Dream Twist
3x Forbidden Alchemy
Sorceries-3
3x Ponder
Artifacts-6
3x Tumble Magnet (might switch for Pharaoh)
3x Bonehoard
4x Buried Ruin
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
2x Nephalia Drownyard
10x Island
I think that the key changes are putting in the following key cards:
Invisible Stalker- There is probably no better card to equip with a bonehoard than this guy. He just says gg, especially since if your opponent has a sac effect you could just recur reassembling skeleton to sac in order to protect it.
Bonehoard- a more synergistic equipment than Runechanter's Pike for the deck. It aims to bolster your attackers more than that equipment anyway if you keep your creature count high.
Reassembling Skeleton- One of the main reasons that I wanted pure aggro assault versions to go black. Even though we don't get to use Bloodghast anymore we still have this guy as a re-occurring threat that we can equip.
for
Delver of Secrets- very aggressive. However could be some trouble to flip and I want to get in there! Not sure if this guy is good in this style of deck, but yes, certainly aggro.
Phantasmal Bear-again, very aggressive guy that goes in for good beats. However I am very sad when I try to equip him.
Anyways the point is that I think focusing on self-mill is the fastest way to win by bringing out your huge threats.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
~Metamorph
However I will try to give you a typical scenario of how I expect the deck to play through.
Best first 5 turns:
T1: Play Darkslick shores. Use Dream Twist to mill Ruinator, Reassembling Skeleton, Vampire Interloper
T2: Play an Island. Play Invisible Stalker.
T3: Play a Buried Ruin. Use it to cast Forbidden Alchemy EOT of your opponent. Mill Dream Twist, Armor Skaab, and Island. Keep Bonehoard.
T4: Play Island. Play a Bonehoard.
T5: Play Island Equip Bonehoard. Use flashback of Dream Twist to mill 3 more creatures. Swing for 8 dmg.
Rinse and repeat with creature backup (Skaab Ruinator, and Reassembling Skeleton) in order to kill opponent.
But, on an average keep lets say you have this:
Hand: Invisible Stalker, Armored Skaab, Dream Twist, Island, Darkslick Shores, Island, Tumble Magnet.
T1: Play Darkslick Shores. Play Dream Twist. Mill 3 cards to graveyard (Vampire interloper, Bonehoard, Island). End turn.
T2: (Draw Buried Ruin) Play Buried Ruin. Play Dream Stalker. End turn.
T3: (Draw Island) Play Island. Attack opponent for 1. [19] Play Armored Skaab. Mill 4 cards to graveyard (Skaab Ruinator, Invisible Stalker, Tumble Magnet, Ponder).
T4: (Draw Dream Twist) Play Island. Attack with your dudes [17] Play Dream Twist. Mill 3 more cards (Skaab Ruinator, Island, Reassembling Skeleton, Forbidden Alchemy).
Now from turn four from this typical scenario you have plenty of options as the situation calls for it. You can get a ruinator back, go for the bonehoard/invisible stalker plan, or get tumble magnet to get defensive. The main thing is to play whatever you think your opponent has the least chance of answering. However, without the ability to play test this version of the deck, it is hard to proceed further as I'm sure that your play will also be shaped by what your opponent has done by T4.
However I'd still like to investigate the possibility of a 3-color b/G/U deck. Splashing black mainly for the flashback effect and maybe some removal.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
4 Skaab Ruinator
4 Delver of secrets
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Mindshrieker
3 Stitched Drake
2 Merfolk looter
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mana Leak
Land: 22
12 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Shimmering Grotto
This a good hand: 2 lands, delver of secrets, phantasmal bear, ponder, forbidden alchemy, Drake
Turn 1- Land, ponder (into utility such as Snapcaster mage, then rearrange leaving a land at the top, an instant or sorcery second from the top, then whatever. Would be lucky to see a counterspell at this point)
Turn 2- Land, Delver, Bear
Turn 3- Land, Forbidden Alchemy(grab a land, dump creatures) Swing with Aberration and Bear (by now, one of these may have been answered)
Turn 4- Land, Skaab ruinator, and something CMC1, Swing with Aberration and Bear (by now, one of these have probably been answered)
Turn 5- Land, Stitched Drake if you have the counterspell in hand or snapcast back forbidden alchemy
If none of your stuff has been answered, they are dead. If it has, more fuel for Ruinator and Drake. From there, anything you top deck is worth it's weight.
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
~Metamorph
Any thoughts?
Decks:
EDH: I abide by no ban list for EDH.
RUGIntet, the Land CrusherRUG
Standard: Shockland, shockland, mythic spell I win
Legacy: WUBRGDredgeWUBRG
Extended:
UBGDredgeUBG (R.I.P July 1st 2010)
So I imagine the combo you're talking about is in reference to this one?:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=357886
Did a little searching around the forums when you mentioned that.
From what I can gather the procedure is
1. Get Mirror-Mad Phantasm into play (or in graveyard with necrotic ooze strategy).
2. Use some clone effect on it.
3. Activate the clone's ability.
4. Mill yourself.
5. Win with the good doctor=Labratory Maniac
While I admit that it looks like it has some potential since it can go off at instant speed I just want to address some problems that might come up:
- Only one Phantasm in deck to combo with
- No reliable way to tutor for the card you need to do the combo before you mill yourself. (I assume it would be a dredge version of the deck.)
- Relies on more than two cards (3) to work properly and lacks the benefit of tutors.
- They can remove the Laboratory Maniac and then it's you who's screwed.
I am curious to see a decklist implementing this strategy but keep in mind that it should follow the "dredge rule" which is that the primary focus of the deck should be self-millage.
If you get the time to post one up I'd be happy to look at a list oh Dark-one.
Ah, thanks for sharing Vex
(click below to see list)
The list seems decent but I think that the deck might be trying to be something that it is not. In your deck I see more of an aggro build. One that utilizes the power of Delver of Secrets and Phantasmal Bear as big swing-y turn 1 plays. It seems to be far more concerned about attacking than stockpiling the graveyard with resources. Seems like your deck might be better of R/U, splashing for Grim Lavamancer, Incinerate, and other spells that help sling damage and flip Delver.
The reason I say this is that some key differences between my build and yours are:
-In my list I try to start the milling on turn one.
-In your list the only milling that occurs is the "pitch" to Forbidden Alchemy.
-In my list the graveyard is my major resource.
-In your list you generate "card advantage" by laying dudes.
-In my list I use cards that mill.
-In your list you have 1 card that mills. Mindshrieker. And with the low CC of your cards what are you expecting to hit.
-In my list I hope to cast Skaab Ruinator almost exclusively from the graveyard.
-In your list its okay to have a Ruinator ruin your day be being in your hand.
With that being said there's nothing overtly wrong with your list but it does make me wonder if you want it to be a dredge deck or something else. Blue weenie aggro is fine but this style deck should effectively "draw" cards by milling them.
Once I get to testing, thing will be a lot more clear anyways. Like should we even be running 4 Skaab Ruinators? Is 3 better? I don't want to drop below 20 creatures in most builds so what other creatures should I be playing? Is ponder worth it to preview what you're milling?
All these questions will probably be answered through testing.
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!
2. Good Decks Have Good Plans
3. Good Decks Have Good Mana Bases
4. Good Decks Respect Their Opponents
5. Good Decks Have 75 Cards
6. Sometimes Even Good Decks Are Bad Choices
7. Sometimes Your 'Good Deck' Isn't
~Metamorph
With Inn coming into standard, I really hope this archtype takes off. So here are a few of my suggestion,
1) 2-3 Ruinators should be enough, the 3 creature cost is actually pretty high and we probably shouldn't be doing this until late game.
2) with all the mill cards now, jace's archivist is not as necessary. That being said, it is an amazing way to get stuff in your hand in your yard and give you a full grip again.
3) Reassmbling Skeletons are amazing =)
4) UB is great, but green has some pretty good cards. (mulch, boneyard wurm, splinterfright). It seems that green would be a better colour choice is we wanted to be aggro and less control.
5) dredge needs reanimation, might i suggest postmortem lunge? lunge + cagebreakers (the green card that gives wolf tokens when it attacks) seem pretty game changing.
6) this one a bit more random, but has anyone thought about white. we get access unburial rites, and sun titan. just a thought
hope you guys find something useful in there.
EDIT - can we call this deck "Yard Sale"?
4 Splinterfright
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Boneyard Wurm
4 Skinshifter
3 Acidic Slime
2 Aether Adept
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kessig Cage Breakers
4 Mulch
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Noxious Revival
2 Visons of Beyond
Artifacts (2):
2 Sword of Feast and Famine.
Lands (22):
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Shimmering Grotto
10 Forests
6 Islands
3 Mana Leak
2 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Beast Within
2 Vapor Snag
3 Mental Mistep
The list is much more aggro oriented then many of the other lists. Despite the low cost of most of the creatures it is deceptively a midgame deck. I'm lacking a one drop, but frankly, none of the one drops are really worth a slot in the deck anyways. Bears are okay but they're a dead drop after turn one and boneyard wurm is better mid game. Elves/birds are okay but the only thing I'm accelerating into is an Acidic Slime, and again they're dead drops late game. I am still playing around with the deck a lot; however, I've been consistently beating both aggro and control. Control is simply a matter of paitence, the more creatures that are countered the more efficient the other creatures become, and there isn't enough reliable counters to stop the deck. When it comes to aggro, my creatures are simply bigger and more effiecient. If they're not running counters I get to mulch + snapcaster all day long. I suspect RDW will be an issue, but I haven't faced it except for a few poorly played versions, and that is why Mental Misstep is in the sideboard.
It's hard to decide what utility spells to play since the format is so random right now. I'm not sold on visions, but if I draw it early I cycle it, and if there is one in the graveyard when I hit 20 cards it wins games. Also, Noxious Revival is amazing. There's so many possibilities for the deck it's a little frustrating. I would like to play mana ramp because snapcasting mulch turn three is a great feeling, but the rampers are dead draws after turn one. I'm not sold on Aether Adept but bounce offers a lot of utility, and I like that it keeps the creature count high.
I don't like Skaab Ruinator because he has horrible synergy with the deck, self-milling aside. I dislike Mindshrieker because he is unreliable and my mana curve is extremely low. I will take a Skinshifter over a Mindshrieker every day. I am not very impressed with Armored Skaag or Dream Twist.
3 Deranged Assistant
4 Merfolk Looter
4 Mindshreiker
4 Stitched Drake
4 Skaab Ruinator
3 Vengeful Pharoah
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Shimmering Grotto
8 Island
6 Swamp
I think there's a couple ways to go about making this sort of deck, and this sort of leads to two differents decks and strategies. I see some other versions of this, specifically those that want to take advantage of Splinterfright, which function through building their graveyard up as big as they can. I'm less interested in a sizeable graveyard than I am simply using it as a utility. I don't really care about dumping a lot of cards in there; I just need enough to be casting my skaabs.
As this deck is pretty heavily blue, I don't really ever want to cast Pharaoh, because I probably won't be able to. However, I'm less worried about drawing him than others have been. Between the looter and zombie infestation, he can be a surprize graveyard dweller to some attacking creatures. The Assistant, about whom I'm a little uncertain still, helps make sure I don't draw that uncastable vengeful fellow when he returns to the top of my library.
I really like Zombie Infestation in here as well. I have fun with that card just in general, and in here it's my real reason for the black. An ideal opening hand has both the Infestation and the Ruinator, with the former coming down on turn two and immediately grant me two 2/2 zombie jerks when I pitch Ruinator and three of his pals, then on turn three I'll swing with my jerks on the ground and cast the Ruinator.
Any thoughts are welcome. I would have liked to get Ponder in here, for example, but I don't know that I have room.
(Click below to see responses)
Hmmm interesting list here spinalv. I was wondering about playing zombie infestation in a dredge style deck although I feel like that card would lean more towards a control (or upper mid-range) build than an aggro one. If it works like how you describe that would be key though (looking forward to testing it out). Initially, it seems like this type of build is the same one that Vex has advocated. Small beaters and heavy recursive finishers to try to take your opponent down. I also was wondering about the decision to use doom blade in this style of deck. In my builds the deck used tumble magnet as the main removal as I just want guys out of the way and once the magnet is milled I can get it back with a buried ruin.
A few adjustment are possible however. As Psisous pointed out I'm not sure if we'll ever need all four of the Skaab Ruinators, but I still want to consistently mill them. My suggestion is going to be keeping them at 3 for now because we don't really want to draw them and we don't want all of them to fight over which cards to exile.
Secondly, I believe that Vengeful Pharaoh is basically for mid-range and up. You really don't want him in the opener or to draw into them ever (which is what the Dream Twists are good for. I might suggest running two or three of them in a build like this.
Also, can someone explain why the love for spectral bear? I feel like the guy isn't really that great as although he is really aggressive, he is outclassed easily and would die to getting targeted by a tumble magnet or the like. I just don't know if I like a guy that's non-evasive, can't be equipped, and doesn't mesh well with the rest of the deck. If you wanted a beater wouldn't Invisible stalker just be a better choice with equipment (not that I would run him in your deck though spinalv.)
Nice predictions (I'm sure if RDW is anything like past incarnations it will be a hassle, but fortunately it won't have lightning bolt...) and looks similar to what I was thinking an incarnation of this deck would look like. Definitely more "uses the graveyard as a resource."
I also agree with you about Mindshrieker. Seems too variable as there is no way to keep it consistently pumped. However I disagree about the Skaab Ruinator. I believe that he has a place in the deck simply because he gives so much reach late game being a recursive body that just keeps coming back for more. I think that I might try to fit 2 in this style of build. As far as the rest goes I also concede that noxious revival could be an excellent card to add to this build and that the Aether Adept does do a good "removal" impression while keeping the creature count up. I don't think that we should dismiss Dream Twist though as it seems pretty sweet especially since it has flashback.
Sweet to see all this you guys, hope to post up another list soon!
Thanks to Rivenor @ //forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663"/"> Miraculous Recovery for the Sig!