This deck was a Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund deck for some time but with the last version of the list I came up with I found that Karrthus wasnt really the appropriate commander for it any longer. I wanted something that I could bring in sooner and interact more with the deck. Due to that I changed the commander to Xira Arien due to her ability to carry equipment, chump block evasive attackers, and draw me cards. This change in commander also made me a bit more reactive as I wanted to keep up mana to draw cards or use answers now so with the change of commander I altered a few things such as bringing in more wincons and more instant speed options.
I would probably replace Lurking Predators (despite how good it is) for Vicious Shadows. In creature-heavy decks, you just murder people out of nowhere with it.
By the way, I love how you have Shivan Harvest in the deck. That's one of my favourite cards.
Oh and one question, since we play much the same decks (aggro-control), I'd just like to know what your experiences with Sword of Feast and Famine are. I'm considering it for a deck currently and don't have as much experience with it as I do with the classic Swords.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I feel like you could get some good mileage out of Wild Pair. That is the all star of my Karrthus deck. Let me break this down a little:
Rune-Scarred/Primus/Prime Titty all go together.
Kiki-Jiki/Solemn/Acidic Slime/Oracle/Vandal/Lyzolda/Wall of Blossoms.
E. Witness/Nezumi G/Bloodghast
Visionary/R Skeleton/s-t Elder/Farhaven Elf/Empath/Squee/Wood Elves
Skinrender/Godo/Duplicant/Flametongue
I think it is worth testing at the very least. Casting Rune-Scarred and getting Primetime at the same time seems good. Also makes your little dudes better mid-late game when you draw them.
I may have suggested this to you before, but I am just a huge fan of Wild Pair.
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"I will flay the skin from your flesh and the flesh from your bones and scrape your bones dry. And still you will not have suffered enough." -Greven il-Vec, to Gerrard
I would probably replace Lurking Predators (despite how good it is) for Vicious Shadows. In creature-heavy decks, you just murder people out of nowhere with it.
By the way, I love how you have Shivan Harvest in the deck. That's one of my favourite cards.
Oh and one question, since we play much the same decks (aggro-control), I'd just like to know what your experiences with Sword of Feast and Famine are. I'm considering it for a deck currently and don't have as much experience with it as I do with the classic Swords.
Ha, you caught me on that one. Somehow I keep coming back to Karrthus as a commander. I keep playing other decks in his colors and I just keep comparing back to Karrthus. I think he is a good solid finisher commander and if I can get a decklist I like I think he might be where I want to be for a jund commander. I have always been a sucker for hastey commanders.
Gamble: hummmm I have sort of a hard time with this one. Sure tutoring for one mana is amazing but I dont like the loss of a card at random. I mean if I am really dying for a specific card or if it is the best tutor I have then sure but dropping a black tutor for Gamble..... I just dont know man. I dont know if I can get behind that. Sure the one mana cost is lolz amazing but I would sort of rather the solidity of a tutor where I know how the results will be for 3 more mana. I dont know if I can jump behind that exchange...
Vithian Renegades hey cool I havent ever seen the card before so thats cool. I started back into standard in Zendikar and nobody really ran that thing. I suppose I could swap the vandals out for it. Ideally I wish it were another Harmonic Sliver but we cant always have such cheap removal. I suppose I will make the swap.
Vicious Shadows - I know how stupidly powerful the card can be. I wouldnt mind picking it up but I will just drop it in the wishlist for now. I dont know entirely if I want to replace the predators for it or not. The card is sort of really tough to utilize sometimes as I feel like I need to drop it and wrath at the same time so it is really tricky. If I am just dropping it into play it is very unlikely that it will go off even once as my meta is sort of noncreature removal heavy as we love us some green. It is a good card that can win easily but it takes a ****load of setup so for now I am going to say no but it will go on the wishlist.
Shivan Harvest I know this card just looks like fun I used it once ages ago in a kiki jiki list and found it to be mean as hell. I figure I should run it and figure out if it is any good in this list.
Sword of Feast and Famine is a tricky sword. I havent run it in EDH yet as it keeps going on the maybe list and getting cut before it makes it in. I run it a lot in standard though so I will give you the reason I dont run it in EDH. In standard the discard is totally ballin amazing. However when you go to multiplayer you really loose out on single discard's power and the sword becomes prity much all about the untap. If you have a decklist that needs ****loads of mana in a turn to operate I could see it or in a deck that just has a lot of responses it would be good too. Generally speaking though I havent found untapping to be powerful enough in most of my lists to go in though. I want card advantage 1 card discard vs one opponent when facing 3 opponents isnt really card advantage as there are 2 opponents who were not effected by the sword in that case. I think it is probably runnable but it takes the right list. It is by far weaker than the original two swords in my mind for EDH use.
EDIT: Generally speaking though I will often consider using Umezawa's Jitte long before I would consider Feast and Famine though. I like card advantage more than I do untapping and killing opponents creatures often feels more powerful than the untap.
I feel like you could get some good mileage out of Wild Pair. That is the all star of my Karrthus deck. Let me break this down a little:
Rune-Scarred/Primus/Prime Titty all go together.
Kiki-Jiki/Solemn/Acidic Slime/Oracle/Vandal/Lyzolda/Wall of Blossoms.
E. Witness/Nezumi G/Bloodghast
Visionary/R Skeleton/s-t Elder/Farhaven Elf/Empath/Squee/Wood Elves
Skinrender/Godo/Duplicant/Flametongue
I think it is worth testing at the very least. Casting Rune-Scarred and getting Primetime at the same time seems good. Also makes your little dudes better mid-late game when you draw them.
I may have suggested this to you before, but I am just a huge fan of Wild Pair.
Man I got railroaded by Wild Pair on tuesday when I was testing out my MBC deck and got it down to me vs some jank Experiment Kraj deck but he just kept dropping like 20 guys at a time with Wild Pair it was stupid. I guess I could give the card a shot. I always look at it and just assume that it wont ever trigger but man it can get mean when it does. I will see if I can make room for it. It is on the wishlist at the very least.
My thoughts:
-Where is my new favorite creature, arena with wings (Bloodgift Demon)
-Plague Boiler sits very comfortably next to O-stone
-Karrthus needs more nasty dragon friends, Steel Hellkite and Dragon Broodmother seem comfortable with him imo
-Mirri's Guile is great as a quasi-extra top
-Minds Eye is bueno for draw in green
-Woodfall Primus misses his big bro T-don
-I wish you had more ramp
overall I love the list, just a few style preferences of mine I think...
Edit: on wildpair, I used to love it but I feel like it lends decks into overextending. It's good, you do have to be careful with it though.
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Hey, Call me Rex. I really need to make one of those nice banners but I'm lazy and I don't know how.
My thoughts:
-Where is my new favorite creature, arena with wings (Bloodgift Demon)
-Plague Boiler sits very comfortably next to O-stone
-Karrthus needs more nasty dragon friends, Steel Hellkite and Dragon Broodmother seem comfortable with him imo
-Mirri's Guile is great as a quasi-extra top
-Minds Eye is bueno for draw in green
-Woodfall Primus misses his big bro T-don
-I wish you had more ramp
overall I love the list, just a few style preferences of mine I think...
Edit: on wildpair, I used to love it but I feel like it lends decks into overextending. It's good, you do have to be careful with it though.
Bloodgift Demon I dont know.... I dont see it as being all that much better than Graveborn Muse to be honest. My big problem is that I am all paranoid about everyone always wrathing even if it is in a game where there are relatively few wraths. Creatures that draw cards over turns are sort of high profile. Its not as though nobody notices when you drop Phyrexian Arena, it is that it can be tough to answer on turn 3. However creatures coming in at 4 and 5 mana arent as hard to answer. I just dont feel like they will net all that many cards for me on average as I am sort of the "To Kill" player of the meta so nobdoy lets me have fun things like that...
Plague Boiler... I can drop Oblivion Stone into play and activate it in the same turn for a total cost of 8 mana. Plague Boiler on the other hand costs me 12 mana to try to do the same. The ability to drop and utilize these effects is huge in my meta as if you need that to wrath then I will just naturalize it. It happens all the time and so nobody can really get away with those type of effects by slow rolling them. We have wayyyyyyy too many green decks that eat up fun toys. I hit people's Nev Disks all the time and now nobody runs them anymore because if you want it I am eating it. I think it is cute but too expensive to utilize. If I was running a Glissa G/B deck it would be in though.
I am running this as a Jund goodstuff list. While I am not against a dragon making it into the list it would be completely apart from the fact that Karrthus is my commander. He is in as a wincon only. I dont want to dip into dragon tribal as I dont like it. I havent ever been much of a tribal player and I find it to be a bit bland. If a dragon is good enough to make the list on its own then ok but I couldnt find one that really fit the theme of the deck that I wanted in.
Mirri's Guile indeed a good card I just dont really require the topdeck manipulation. I think that 2 effects are fine. They are nice to have but I dont feel like I am hurting for them enough to stack 3+ in the list currently.
Minds Eye I might still consider adding it. The downside of it obviously being that it is expensive and slow to pay off. I guess I would have to try to figure out what the average card draw off of it is. It could be nice though but as of right now I dont know what would come out for it. The slowness of it sort of sucks too.
Terastodon felt like a bit of overkill. He could make it though but I think he is sort of a jerk. He is a d bag if you start copying with kiki / mimic vat... (I cant even tell you how many losses have been due to that...)
As for the ramp.... ehhh I considered having a bit more but the ramp in this list is actually quite similar to my jenara list. Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves have panned out for me well in the past as I can abuse them to multiple things, rez them. It has worked in the past. I guess a bit of playtesting with this particular list will tell me more on if I need more ramp though. Overall though I dont have that much that I really need stupid big mana for though. If I had more dragons / 6+ mana creatures I think I would need a bit more but this build going in is taking a build approach that I am familiar with in my Jenara list which has been fairly successful. I will adjust if need be though.
EDIT:Skinrender went out for Terastodon. The shotgunning land option is too viable to pass on. At the worst answering 3 utility cards and getting a 9/9 out of it is quite amazing.
EDIT 2:Skinrender back in for Flametongue Kavu due to it being able to better deal with larger creatures. I really like the art and feel to the Kavu more which makes me sad but I have to accept that 4 damage doesnt kill a lot in EDH so while the Skinrender can kill most of the same utility creatures it can also shrink big fatties down to size. Plus who wouldnt want to shrink a vultron commander down to pipsqueak size.
ISB Pathfinder, I love the idea behind all of your EDH decks. They are all very quick, disruptive, creature based decks, essentially the definition of aggro-control. In light of this, I would love to have a meta level discussion on what constitutes an aggro-control deck. How should the curve be structured? What types of creatures should be included? How many slots do you devote to disruptive non-creatures? How much ramp? These types of more philosophical questions I'd love to address. Maybe we should open up a thread in the main forum?
After looking at another thread where you recommended Karrthus, I decided to look at your decklist. As I love dragons, and I really enjoy jund colors. After looking at the entire decklist however I was just sitting here (pants off mind you) thinking "But mommy, where are all the dragons?" I feel as if Karrthus' strongest ability is to gain control of all dragons on the field and give them haste.
So it just made me wonder why you decided to go with a more *goodstuff* themed jund deck, as apposed to something with at least one flying firebreathing scary dude in there? Hell, my Kresh deck has three dragons in it I believe. Granted, I guess it's not as much aggro control and probably not built as solid. But hell!
Here's my contribution to the thread Conspiracy. I'm sure you have thought about it, but naming all creatures you control as dragons and them all immediately having haste is kind've a neat thing. (Assuming he stays on the board)
ISB Pathfinder, I love the idea behind all of your EDH decks. They are all very quick, disruptive, creature based decks, essentially the definition of aggro-control. In light of this, I would love to have a meta level discussion on what constitutes an aggro-control deck. How should the curve be structured? What types of creatures should be included? How many slots do you devote to disruptive non-creatures? How much ramp? These types of more philosophical questions I'd love to address. Maybe we should open up a thread in the main forum?
Cheers,
Max
Thanks Max,
I appreciate the compliment. I have sort of a way of designing decks that is sort of my own and comes from how I like playing and what I am used to playing against. I tend to view everything in the means of what is the immediate impact on the game and what are the chances that it will live for a turn. Something that is slow and works over time like Vigor I strongly dislike because of the fact that it is sort of a tactic that requires overextending and is sort of slow otherwise. I like a lot of utility creatures with ETB effects and cards that interact strongly with those types of creatures.
If I were to get into what Agro-Control is in a nutshell I would have to say the overall idea is to control the game to your liking while using creatures to win. The idea is that between the creatures you have in play plus the control you have in hand you control the flow of the game. Having chump blockers in play is a good way to make opponent's threats not come your way because if all I accomplish is force my opponent to use his Sakura-Tribe Elder then what the hell did I accomplish. So one part of the plan is to utilize ETB creatures in a means to get opponents to swing elsewhere. When that plan fails you resort primarily to spot removal. And if opponents overextend to get beyond your spot removal then wrath the board. Since all of our creatures are sort of ETB based there is a very low impact on our presence by wrathing as the creatures have alread done their job.
A quick breakdown on what I would tend to consider Agro-Control or how I usually go about creating a decklist.
CREATURES: When it comes to creatures I tend to shoot for the 25-35 creature range. When you start getting down to the 20 or less creatures in a list you generally go away from the agro based lists. When you push hard over 30 creatures you tend to start to loose some of the control elements as well and I tend to not go that route unless there is some sort of theme or really strong reason to do so. As for the type of creatures I tend to focus on creatures with immediate impacts on the game or easily recursive creatures. Creatures with ETB abilities give immediate results and thus if they are removed by means of spot removal or a wrath there is a low loss from them. Recursive creatures can come in several means but the more often ones self recur or persist. These creatures are value generating engines and when utilized with sac outlets or ETB abilities you get big payouts with them. Obviously though they hate graveyard hate so you have to watch how heavily you stock up with graveyard abilities vs how much graveyard hate you expect in a game. The more grave hate you expect to see the less recursive creatures you are probably going to want to run. Generally speaking the big rule on creatures is just try to stay away from vanilla as they are just plain bad. I also tend to stay away from creatures that buff other creatures such as the lieges IE Boartusk Liege.
SPOT REMOVAL: When it comes to disruption versatility is king. While I have no problems with something like Disenchant I would much prefur to run Oblation instead due to its increased options on targets. Generally speaking I pack in at least 3-5 instant speed removal options. So often it is instant speed removal that can make or break the game. If someone uses Tooth and Nail for a game ending combo usually a well placed spot removal can stop it. If someone wants to do a Hermit Druid combo on turn 2 then your only hope is to have an instant speed removal to stop them. Spot removal is very important to stop opponents from just flopping combo out on you. Even if you aren't running blue more often than not you can still interact with their combo.
BOARD WIPES: I can't stress the importance of balancing the right number of board wipes enough. If you don't run them then you tell your opponents that they can run right over you. If you run too many of them then everyone will expect you to clean up the mess all the time. Generally speaking 3-4 board wipes has felt about right for me. If you run tutors as well it helps back them up with some consistency for when you really need them. Dont forget to pack some artifact / enchantment hate in your wrath arsenal as it really can screw the non green player bad. It really helps vs combo decks as well as often they like dropping combo pieces like some of the mana stones and using them early in the game.
RAMP: Generally speaking this varries from player to player. Some players will swear to running like 15+ ramp cards which can be fine in the right meta but if you dont plan on comboing out yourself or dropping an Armageddon on turn 3 then I think that 5-10 can serve decently. Sometimes if you are the guy doing the lolz ramp you paint a target on yourself. If you can take that target then great but I for one would rather make some means of recurring the ramp and reusing it rather than rely on mana stones which I feel are a bit vulnerable. When it comes to running Agro-Control something like Wood Elves can really step up to the bat very well. The fact that we can rez them, strap equipment onto them, Birthing Pod off of them, or Skullclamp them really gives us a lot of things to generate additional value from.
I could easily go on but I would rather address a specific question you might have if you have any.
After looking at another thread where you recommended Karrthus, I decided to look at your decklist. As I love dragons, and I really enjoy jund colors. After looking at the entire decklist however I was just sitting here (pants off mind you) thinking "But mommy, where are all the dragons?" I feel as if Karrthus' strongest ability is to gain control of all dragons on the field and give them haste.
So it just made me wonder why you decided to go with a more *goodstuff* themed jund deck, as apposed to something with at least one flying firebreathing scary dude in there? Hell, my Kresh deck has three dragons in it I believe. Granted, I guess it's not as much aggro control and probably not built as solid. But hell!
Here's my contribution to the thread Conspiracy. I'm sure you have thought about it, but naming all creatures you control as dragons and them all immediately having haste is kind've a neat thing. (Assuming he stays on the board)
I did go back and forth a bit on the idea of packing in a bunch of dragons into the list but when it came down to it the reason that I did not was that I felt that most of the time that I would be willing to drop a dragon into play the better play was just to drop Karrthus. He kills in 3 shots on his own and he has haste + the ability to potentially steal blockers and make them mine. While I considered running a few other dragons namely Steel Helkite, Balefire Dragon, and Knollspine Dragon the problem is that if I am looking for a strict beater I like the idea of dropping Karrthus more. Also I am really a hardass about creatures not doing anything right away so I don't like creatures that start doing things after they sit for a turn and then after they connect to a player. In my mind I would rather play with creatures that have enters the battlefield options that have guaranteed value. I like Karrthus as a commander still because if I want to drop him in and hit someone in the face he can do that all on his own without assistance. That means that at every stage in the game I can drop him and hit someone making him a constant threat.
This is mainly a means of preference but I don't really go for the whole tribal deal. I don't mind theme decks but I dislike going tribal. I feel that the list is just stronger without it. While I wouldn't be against a dragon making it into the list I don't like banking on the interaction with the commander to give the second dragon haste as it is too unreliable in my opinion.
EDIT: sorry forgot to mention my thoughts on Conspiracy... I guess it is sort of cool as an anti creature theft sort of means but if I want haste I think that Fires of Yavimaya / Anger might just be better. Even then I am not a big one for spending a card to give haste. I would rather it be built in or rely on ETB abilities. If it made all creatures the chosen type then obviously it would be too powerful as I would drop Karrthus and steal everything but anyways... I think I will probably pass on it for now but it is interesting tech for him to say the least. Blades of Velis Vel does a great job for theft for me as is though. I have on a few occasions swung for like 30+ by stealing some eldrazi with it.
This philosohphy is well thought out, and reflects a lot of the discussions we've had on the Jenara thread. That deck has a very hard time losing unless people gang up on you early (which of course rarely happens, because it follows another rule of not bothering people too early)...
I think it's possible to achieve this with other archetypes, but keeping these general rules (and some others that have been left out I'm sure), it is easier to make wiser card choices.
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Check out my cube: http://cubedrafting.blogspot.com
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
I guess I am confused by the lack of recursion in your Jund deck. I see you have Necromancy, Yawgmoth's Will, Sword of Light and Shadowand Eternal Witness as your only dedicated recursion spells. That seems low to me. What about Genesis or Sheoldred, Whispering One? Obviously both of those cards don't have the immediate board impact that you prefer your creatures to have, but they seem really powerful in a deck with lots of cheap, expendable ETB creatures.
I guess I am confused by the lack of recursion in your Jund deck. I see you have Necromancy, Yawgmoth's Will, and Eternal Witness as your only dedicated recursion spells. That seems low to me. What about Genesis or Sheoldred? Obviously both of those cards don't have the immediate board impact that you prefer your creatures to have, but they seem really powerful in a deck with lots of cheap, expendable ETB creatures.
Additionally, what do you think about more aggressive options? Haste combined with big hard to deal with seem like a decent plan. Stuff like Grave Titan, Inferno Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, etc combined with Urabrask, Anger, Kiki-Jiki and Furvor? Thoughts on cards like those?
Genesis has naturally over time been a card I have hated on due to most of my decks having a lack of means to discard / sacrifice. I have to be honest and say I hadnt really given him any thought for this list. I might need to give him some thought now as he could be a good add. His big downfall is that he is slow and doesnt really work until later in the game when you can sacrifice mana to recur creatures. In the first 6 to 8 turns or so he is sort of suck. After that he becomes quite good depending upon how much grave hate you expect to see. My meta sort of went a bit grave hate heavy in the last few months but I might run him for a bit and see how my results go. This would be the deck if ever there was one that I should put him in.
Sheoldred, Whispering One I have always had a problem with this creature. In my opinion it is bad Braids, Cabal Minion because if you ever, every think she will last until your upkeep you are joking yourself. Nobody at the table wants it to happen and in my opinion you are playing against joke opponents or someone is going to combo out and thus doesnt care anyways about it. I would say that 98% of games against real opponents she wont make it to rez a single card without jumping through a lot of hoops to do so. So, if you dont expect Sheoldred to last till your own upkeep to rez something then why not run Braids instead who costs less and hits the non agro players? The answer is Braids is just outright better.
REZ Options: I also have Puppeteer Clique, Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni, and Sword of Light and Shadow to rely on for rez. Plus dont forget that I have several recursive creatures such as Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, and Squee, Goblin Nabob which require the graveyard to utilize. If I stock up on too many graveyard recursion cards then I make my graveyard a potential weakness for if someone strips it. If I had a meta that hated a bit less on graveyards I could in fact go quite a ways beyond my current package. Animate Dead, Reanimate, Beacon of Unrest, Regrowth, Restock, and Praetor's Counsel and several other cards could also be added to this list. However I didnt want to focus too heavily on my graveyard so I put a bit of a lighter spin on it.
Haste + Fat: Honestly I am not as big of a fan of this. I dont like relying on multiple card strategies so relying on a haste outlet to stick to the board is sort of a bad strategy in my mind because it would never fly in my meta. The first thing I always kill is opponent's haste outlets. This applies for creatures like Urbrask, enchantments like Fires of Yavimaya, and grave tactics like Anger. They are high profile and so while they can work I dont think they work that well. I find that it is easier to create an easy strategy like making every creature good on its own rather than trying to set up things that are only good when combined with another specific card.
Titans: Honestly I think that Grave Titan is overrated. If your meta doesnt see many wraths then sure he is good but I have only seen him actually matter like once and that was because it was a turn 2 Grave Titan. I considered Inferno Titan but decided not to just because I felt he was a bit spendy for what we got from him. I think Wurmcoil Engine might be an option though that I might still consider.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think I am starting to see where you're coming from. It looks like your decks are heavily tuned for a competitive meta filled with combo and tuned decks (Out of curiosity, do you have a friendgroup who you typically play with?). As a result you can't really afford to have inefficient or do nothing (vanilla in practice) creatures when there is such a hostile environment for permanents. As you have mentioned, it looks like graveyard hate is much more common for you. I think I should take some pointers and add some to my decks as I often get destroyed by Anger, Genesis and Praetor's Council.
My meta is more diverse than yours but I am almost always playing against two good friends of mine who both have similar decks to you (creature based, disruptive, back with card advantage). The other decks I play against are either non distruptive combo decks, or people who kinda just durdle. From our discussions it's become clear to me that my decks are far too clunky and slow. I often find myself just getting run over before I get to play my cards. I have tried to rely on wrath effects to control the board but there is enough recurision in this format that I think I need to fight fire with fire and play similar strategies. Furthermore, playing with creatures is just more fun.
All in all thanks for your input ISB I'm going to give some thought to my Jund and Bant list then post them on here. Would you mind taking a look at them when I do?
First of all sorry about not responding earlier guys. I was on my way out the door and I had to drive then fly down to Oklahoma to visit my brother in law and family.
I have a deck similar to this list but with more of an artifact sub-theme. I run Goblin Welder and Glissa for some recursion.
Fauna Shaman has long been on my meh list. I have run it several times and I still run it in my Edric deck. My problem is that it is really slow to work and only works once per turn. While I like my Survival of the Fittest I dont think that Fauna measures up nearly as well. In 1v1 I like her more but I have found her too random in EDH to really like. Sure she has good interactions with some of my self recuring creatures especially Squee but I have had more times where she is ineffective than times she has been effective.
Worldly tutor a decent card but outside of Lurking in play I dont find it that impressive. I dont like the card disadvantage but I guess it is possible I put it in the list.
Noxious Revival I would almost always run Regrowth before this card. Perhaps Edric might be the only deck that I would break this rule. I have considered more graveyard reuse effects but I find them a bit situational to say the least. I dont like relying too heavily on my graveyard as we do hate on graveyards in my meta so too much will make me a larger target.
Cauldron Dance I suppose I should consider it to say the least. I will put it in the possibles for now as it is a good card. I dont like the heavy mana cost to use it but it has some powerful interaction.
Goblin Welder possibly if I had more artifacts in the list. I have problems though with the fact that it takes time to get use out of it. I like fast results and he is more of a value over time creature.
Glissa, the Traitor I have considered her but more for the fact that she is an lolz blocker that just wins in combat. Again though I might need a bigger artifact pool for it but I like her a lot more than the welder due to her usefulness outside of rezing artifacts.
I think I am starting to see where you're coming from. It looks like your decks are heavily tuned for a competitive meta filled with combo and tuned decks (Out of curiosity, do you have a friendgroup who you typically play with?). As a result you can't really afford to have inefficient or do nothing (vanilla in practice) creatures when there is such a hostile environment for permanents. As you have mentioned, it looks like graveyard hate is much more common for you. I think I should take some pointers and add some to my decks as I often get destroyed by Anger, Genesis and Praetor's Council.
My meta is more diverse than yours but I am almost always playing against two good friends of mine who both have similar decks to you (creature based, disruptive, back with card advantage). The other decks I play against are either non distruptive combo decks, or people who kinda just durdle. From our discussions it's become clear to me that my decks are far too clunky and slow. I often find myself just getting run over before I get to play my cards. I have tried to rely on wrath effects to control the board but there is enough recurision in this format that I think I need to fight fire with fire and play similar strategies. Furthermore, playing with creatures is just more fun.
All in all thanks for your input ISB I'm going to give some thought to my Jund and Bant list then post them on here. Would you mind taking a look at them when I do?
Cheers,
Max
Yes in fact I do generally play in the same group every week. We play on tuesdays and some on the weekends depending on what is going on. While we dont run too much combo it is mainly that most of us dont find it that fun to play that way. We sort of frown on it a bit but it is still allowed and it still happens plenty. When you play regularly in the same group they sort of know what to expect out of your decks and so if you drop something broken but it takes a turn to be broken they will do their best to stop that card. Due to that I have sort of moved to a lot of ETB effects so that there are less threatening targets on my board beyond their coming into play effects.
As for the graveyard hate, you really should invest in some options for grave hate. If you are running black you get sooooo many options to hate on graveyards. Removing these threats will sort of show your meta that graveyards are not some forbidden place to hide threats.
Also another thing on the graveyard tangent. Graveyard rez can very often be extremely situational and rely on a lot of things to happen to be good. If someone drops a turn 3-6 Primeval Titan then you are hoping it dies but if someone uses Path to Exile on it then you loose your target, if someone plays a Nihil Spellbomb then you are not going to be able to use any of your graveyard tactics until it is gone. Relying too heavily on graveyard rez is sort of like putting all the eggs in one basket in the fact that it can backfire big on you so I tend to do it a bit lighter and I try to allow my graveyard abuse target opponent's graveyards as well when possible.
From what I have heard from you I think there are a few issues you might be having:
1) your mana curve is too high. If you are sitting with big things in hand and die before they are useful then you likely arent doing enough in the early to mid game and have too many high mana cards. Lowering this curve and make your creatures to have card advantage is a good thing. Something like Wall of Blossoms is a great card to draw late in the game as I pay 2 mana to play it and I get another card. This means that I got a blocker and it cost me no card advantage which is fantastic.
2) Wraths are great but they are very responsive and they do not make you go on the offensive. If you just wrath all the time you arent furthering your own threats but removing your opponents. Ideally if you can drop creatures into play to dissuade opponents from swinging your way then you have dual purposed shut down your opponent's offense and given yourself a threat. If that creature also gave you card advantage such as drawing some cards then you dont care as much if it dies.
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Also this list is still mostly untested. I plan on playing a lot with my Jenara and this list tonight as we are playing some EDH tonight. Hopefully I can get more insight on things that might need to change tonight. This is like my 3rd version of Karrthus though and I have played plenty of Jund and agro control EDH so I think the skeleton of this list should be solid.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Believe me when I say I love him but I have continuously had issues with too much fat in the list. Karrthus is such a huge cost to cast him out so he is really my big fattyness for end game support and I keep finding that I have a bit too many big mana guys in the list. Better ramping / early game creatures / spot removal is probably what I need to focus on more than another big effect.
Also as a side note I am generally happier with Decree of Pain than I am with Reiver Demon. If we could cheat the demon back into play and still get his effect I might think otherwise but that isnt the case.
As of right now I dont even have Decree of Pain in the list because I have had issues with too much high mana stuff so I don't know.
Also I have been considering swapping Mimic Vat out of here for Perilous Forays. The enchantment isnt that fast but it really ramps well into the mid - late game.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
For mid to late game ramping, have you considered either COW or life from the loam? If you have any kind of recursion, life is a way to fill your gy too.
Also, living death has been phenomenal in this deck for me. Kind of a "cheaper than decree" wrath. Great with persist and ETB creatures.
For mid to late game ramping, have you considered either COW or life from the loam? If you have any kind of recursion, life is a way to fill your gy too.
Also, living death has been phenomenal in this deck for me. Kind of a "cheaper than decree" wrath. Great with persist and ETB creatures.
Good call on Living Death, I am used to running a much lower creature curve so it totally escaped me.
As for the land recursion... I just haven't ever been that impressed by it in the past. I think it is best when used with something like Azusa, Lost but Seeking which I don't run in the list. I have however considered upping the land ramp amount by adding both Cultivate and Kodama's Reach to the list. I just haven't been able to get enough test games in yet to really tell if I need them or not.
EDIT: brought in Living Death for Mimic Vat. Mimic Vat has been just a bit too slow to operate of late in most of my decks plus I figure its sort of a wrath / mass rez for a reanimate type effect so it seems like a decent swap.
EDIT 2: I added Sarkhan the Mad to the wishlist. I thought it might be funny to kill someone's sweet creature / commander then drop Karrthus and steal their dragon. Also he gives another sac outlet for reassembling skele and bloodghast that seems fairly cool. The big downside is that he is a suicide planeswalker but still he seems like he could have his uses.
all these cards are perfectly playable in an aggro EDH deck (untapping all your lands is quite explosive) and you will be able to pull infinite combat phases out of nowhere.
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Knowledge is power, money is power, time is money, you are actually gaining time by reading my posts
all these cards are perfectly playable in an aggro EDH deck (untapping all your lands is quite explosive) and you will be able to pull infinite combat phases out of nowhere.
I have also seen these combos run but I saw them run in a Mayael the Anima list as he could take very good advantage of hellkite charger on his own without another card. Plus he had so much big mana stuff that if he could protect a big fatty and trigger untaps it meant more fatties coming in. It also works very well in a Kaalia of the Vast which is probably the best place for it as she absolutletly loves extra attack phases.
I think they are a decent combo I suppose, I just havent really had a lot of luck with any of the mentioned cards in the combo as standalone cards in my lists. When I can afford to I try to stay way from combos that use cards that I care less to draw and use as a standalone card.
As a side not last night I played another game with this list and I think I need to make a few adjustments. I realized I sort of hate having Squee, Goblin Nabob at just about any time. He is just so slow to work with and such a small body to him. I think I am going to replace him with Cultivate which will help towards some of the ramping issues. I have also considered it going to be Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Yavimaya Dryad. The decision is sort of tough as I have to consider if I want to keep the creature curve high for the utility effects.
Also I should really try to look for some more utility creatures and get some more tutors in the list to go get them. I feel like Jenara just has such a larger toolbox of effects between copying graveyard creatures, rezing creatures to play, stealing creatures and what not. I need to do a bit more homework I think and see if I cant broaden it a bit. I think I might also want to cut Terastodon from the list and make it something smaller. It has worked alright so far in Jenara but I havent been feeling the same from him in here.
Ok if anything I am having trouble with Ramp and Card Draw in here... I will see what I can do about both of them with the following changes. Let me know if you think I should move something around here.
I also wanted to look through the R and B ETB creatures a bit more to see what I could sort of find for possible options that I am not already running. This is what I came up with:
Big Game Hunter I like that there is no power 4+ clause on this guy and he is very cost effective.
Bone Shredder another option as well but the nonblack really sort of annoys me more than it probably should.
Fleshbag Marauder I do have a good number of expendible creatures and the extra control here looks like fun. Sometimes sac just doesnt do the trick but I like how it effects everyone. I might like Big Game Hunter a bit more though.
Skeletal Vampire I think he is cool especially considering his tokens fly which is bad ass but I think the Siage gang is winning me over more than this guy due to the control aspects + usability with Matron. I do really love the flying aspects of this token producer though.
Goblin Matron I like the card advantage as it goes to hand and it can hit Kiki-Jiki which is sweet. I just need to make sure I have enough goblins to make this work out.
Siege-Gang Commander Some removal options and some bodies. I can use the bodies for a lot of different things such as chump blocking, shooting them off for 2 dmg apeace, equiping them with swords, skullclamping them. I think overall I like him and he does make for a good second goblin option for me to use the Matron.
Imperial Recruiter omg I would sooooooo love to add this guy to the list but this is a budget issue. I am looking to possibly make a big trade in for a large part of my collection and if I can get this deck up and running a bit better I would love to add this guy to the list. Sadly I will have to invest a minimum of close to $200.00 for this guy sooo.... sort of a pipe dream currently. He would be a powerful add though.
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After looking at a few possible options on some changes I was thinking about making the following changes:
POSSIBLE CUTS:
Praetor's Grasp it is a good card but I think I would rather be ramping here. I can usually find something worth tutoring for but I need more ramp and draw which I feel I can cut this for.
Garruk, Primal Hunter he is a cool card draw outlet but I dont see him doing anything else. The token spawning is cool but he is hard to defend for long in multiplayer. I think that Mind's Eye might give me a bit of a smoother card draw option that is a lot less dependent on things working for me.
Terastodon he is good but he is slow and I need to trim things down to draw more and ramp harder. I really wish I could get a Harmonic Sliver in here but I havent found anything that feels nearly as powerful as it is.
Shivan Harvest It seems like fun but I think it will draw a lot of hate if I ever get it going. I have not drawn it yet but it feels a bit underwhelming.
Seedguide Ash sort of slower ramp in the fact that I need a sac outlet as well to reliably use it right away. I like him still but I need to ramp harder and faster.
Squee, Goblin Nabob I have not liked drawing him of late as he is just slow to use and hard to utilize in here. He is alright but man I just hate paying 3 to recast him and I can only do it once per turn and bloodghast and reassembling feel so much more powerful in the same role.
LOOKING AT ADDING:
Cultivate More efficient ramp. I don't like how it is hard to abuse due to the fact that the deck cannot abuse sorcery effects very easily.
Yavimaya Dryad Another ETB creature that ramps me a mana. The fact that it is forest only and it costs GG is a bit of a worry but I like keeping the creature count high.
Goblin Matron I was sort of thinking of making a small goblin package using this guy and a few other select goblins. Ideally this slot should probably be Imperial Recruiter but due to costs I am forced to run lesser cards.
Siege-Gang Commander he is sort of to expand my goblin package a bit in case I draw kiki before the Matron. I think he has a lot of great uses in the list anyways as control and abuse.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
You could also run things like Warren Weirding and potentially Boggart Harbinger as well. I find that they tend to streamline the deck in to a more consistent machine overall. I've had great success with them.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I think the goblin package is cool but I have some issues with it as well. I sort of wanted to keep it small for now for a few reasons namely that Imperial Recruiter is probably the ideal card over Goblin Matron.
Goblin Matron currently adding it to try it out a little. I think it has some potential.
Goblin Welder I am just running too small of an artifact package to really see him shine. I think he is cool but I dont like utility creatures that work over time in play. I would rather ETB abilities, death abilities, and easy recursion when I can on my creatures.
Siege-Gang Commander I am giving him a shot too. I like how he comes sort of army in a can style and at 5 mana + part of a goblin tutorable package he seems like fun.
Goblin Settler I considered it but I dont know how heavily I want to invest in target LD. He is fun with kiki that is for sure but I dont know if I really like it as a standalone card.
Squee, Goblin Nabob currently cutting him out due to him feeling like he is too clunky. Bloodghast and Reassembling just reanimate so much better than he does that he always feels the worst of the 3. Sure he is fun with skullclamp and survival but outside of that I have had plenty of problems with him.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker already in the list but I have yet to draw him. Thus the inclusion of the Matron.
Sneak attack is just cheating with etb creatures like terastodon (which I would surely have a hard time cutting).
Greater good is cards plus a sac outlet. Maybe not as good with you're tiny dudes but can end games with woodfall primus shenanigans.
Adding the small rampy sorceries do seem a little non-syn with the rest of the deck. Maybe if you're adding a Garruk, make it 1.0. He's rampy and reusable.
As an aside, do you plan on playing in multiplayer games or 1 on 1? If multi, how many players do you usually play with at a table? I'm throwing cards out that I like in a 3-4 man game.
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This deck was a Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund deck for some time but with the last version of the list I came up with I found that Karrthus wasnt really the appropriate commander for it any longer. I wanted something that I could bring in sooner and interact more with the deck. Due to that I changed the commander to Xira Arien due to her ability to carry equipment, chump block evasive attackers, and draw me cards. This change in commander also made me a bit more reactive as I wanted to keep up mana to draw cards or use answers now so with the change of commander I altered a few things such as bringing in more wincons and more instant speed options.
1 Xira Arien
CREATURES (22)
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Fierce Empath
1 Goblin Matron
1 Wood Elves
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Acidic Slime
1 Genesis
1 Keldon Firebombers
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Duplicant
1 Primeval Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Terastodon
ARTIFACT (9)
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Golgari Signet
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Birthing Pod
1 Vedalken Orrery
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Attrition
1 Necromancy
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Stranglehold
INSTANT (8)
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Constant Mists
1 Beast Within
1 Chaos Warp
1 Chord of Calling
1 Jund Charm
1 Putrefy
SORCERY (14)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Damnation
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Syphon Mind
1 Army of the Damned
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Command Tower
1 Savage Lands
1 Twilight Mire
1 Graven Cairns
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Winding Canyons
1 Strip Mine
1 Kher Keep
4 Mountain
8 Forest
5 Swamp
Here are links to my old Jund decklists:
To keep track of my old decklists I will tag their urls in here:
Original Karrthus list,
Heavy Rez Karrthus
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
Kresh the Bloodbraided
Karrthus as he stood before I changed to Xira Arien:
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
CREATURES (28)
1 Bloodghast
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Fierce Empath
1 Goblin Matron
1 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
1 Vithian Renegades
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Skinrender
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Acidic Slime
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Duplicant
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Primeval Titan
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Birthing Pod
1 Mind's Eye
ENCHANTMENT (9)
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Attrition
1 Necromancy
1 Necropotence
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Grave Pact
1 Lurking Predators
INSTANT (5)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Blades of Velis Vel
1 Beast Within
1 Chaos Warp
1 Chord of Calling
SORCERY (10)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Cultivate
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Damnation
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Syphon Mind
1 Living Death
1 Promise of Power
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Command Tower
1 Savage Lands
1 Twilight Mire
1 Graven Cairns
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Spinerock Knoll
1 Strip Mine
1 Kher Keep
4 Mountain
8 Forest
5 Swamp
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[Modern] Allies
Alright, I'm going to suggest a few things.
You definitely need Gamble. Don't let the card fool you; it's amazing. I would replace Diabolic Tutor for it.
Vithian Renegades could replace/play alongside Manic Vandal if you think you need that extra bit of power.
I would probably replace Lurking Predators (despite how good it is) for Vicious Shadows. In creature-heavy decks, you just murder people out of nowhere with it.
By the way, I love how you have Shivan Harvest in the deck. That's one of my favourite cards.
Oh and one question, since we play much the same decks (aggro-control), I'd just like to know what your experiences with Sword of Feast and Famine are. I'm considering it for a deck currently and don't have as much experience with it as I do with the classic Swords.
Rune-Scarred/Primus/Prime Titty all go together.
Kiki-Jiki/Solemn/Acidic Slime/Oracle/Vandal/Lyzolda/Wall of Blossoms.
E. Witness/Nezumi G/Bloodghast
Visionary/R Skeleton/s-t Elder/Farhaven Elf/Empath/Squee/Wood Elves
Skinrender/Godo/Duplicant/Flametongue
I think it is worth testing at the very least. Casting Rune-Scarred and getting Primetime at the same time seems good. Also makes your little dudes better mid-late game when you draw them.
I may have suggested this to you before, but I am just a huge fan of Wild Pair.
EDH
GUBVorosh, the HunterGUB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundBRG
GMolimo, Maro-SorcererG
UThada Adel, AcquisitorU list soon
BEndrek Sahr, Master BreederB
Ha, you caught me on that one. Somehow I keep coming back to Karrthus as a commander. I keep playing other decks in his colors and I just keep comparing back to Karrthus. I think he is a good solid finisher commander and if I can get a decklist I like I think he might be where I want to be for a jund commander. I have always been a sucker for hastey commanders.
Gamble: hummmm I have sort of a hard time with this one. Sure tutoring for one mana is amazing but I dont like the loss of a card at random. I mean if I am really dying for a specific card or if it is the best tutor I have then sure but dropping a black tutor for Gamble..... I just dont know man. I dont know if I can get behind that. Sure the one mana cost is lolz amazing but I would sort of rather the solidity of a tutor where I know how the results will be for 3 more mana. I dont know if I can jump behind that exchange...
Vithian Renegades hey cool I havent ever seen the card before so thats cool. I started back into standard in Zendikar and nobody really ran that thing. I suppose I could swap the vandals out for it. Ideally I wish it were another Harmonic Sliver but we cant always have such cheap removal. I suppose I will make the swap.
Vicious Shadows - I know how stupidly powerful the card can be. I wouldnt mind picking it up but I will just drop it in the wishlist for now. I dont know entirely if I want to replace the predators for it or not. The card is sort of really tough to utilize sometimes as I feel like I need to drop it and wrath at the same time so it is really tricky. If I am just dropping it into play it is very unlikely that it will go off even once as my meta is sort of noncreature removal heavy as we love us some green. It is a good card that can win easily but it takes a ****load of setup so for now I am going to say no but it will go on the wishlist.
Shivan Harvest I know this card just looks like fun I used it once ages ago in a kiki jiki list and found it to be mean as hell. I figure I should run it and figure out if it is any good in this list.
Sword of Feast and Famine is a tricky sword. I havent run it in EDH yet as it keeps going on the maybe list and getting cut before it makes it in. I run it a lot in standard though so I will give you the reason I dont run it in EDH. In standard the discard is totally ballin amazing. However when you go to multiplayer you really loose out on single discard's power and the sword becomes prity much all about the untap. If you have a decklist that needs ****loads of mana in a turn to operate I could see it or in a deck that just has a lot of responses it would be good too. Generally speaking though I havent found untapping to be powerful enough in most of my lists to go in though. I want card advantage 1 card discard vs one opponent when facing 3 opponents isnt really card advantage as there are 2 opponents who were not effected by the sword in that case. I think it is probably runnable but it takes the right list. It is by far weaker than the original two swords in my mind for EDH use.
EDIT: Generally speaking though I will often consider using Umezawa's Jitte long before I would consider Feast and Famine though. I like card advantage more than I do untapping and killing opponents creatures often feels more powerful than the untap.
Man I got railroaded by Wild Pair on tuesday when I was testing out my MBC deck and got it down to me vs some jank Experiment Kraj deck but he just kept dropping like 20 guys at a time with Wild Pair it was stupid. I guess I could give the card a shot. I always look at it and just assume that it wont ever trigger but man it can get mean when it does. I will see if I can make room for it. It is on the wishlist at the very least.
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[Modern] Allies
-Where is my new favorite creature, arena with wings (Bloodgift Demon)
-Plague Boiler sits very comfortably next to O-stone
-Karrthus needs more nasty dragon friends, Steel Hellkite and Dragon Broodmother seem comfortable with him imo
-Mirri's Guile is great as a quasi-extra top
-Minds Eye is bueno for draw in green
-Woodfall Primus misses his big bro T-don
-I wish you had more ramp
overall I love the list, just a few style preferences of mine I think...
Edit: on wildpair, I used to love it but I feel like it lends decks into overextending. It's good, you do have to be careful with it though.
Check out my EDH/Commander primer for Vorosh, the Hunter
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...10#post6907410
The primer is currently very far out of date and needs re-writing. If you're interested in any info or actually seeing it redone please pm me.
Bloodgift Demon I dont know.... I dont see it as being all that much better than Graveborn Muse to be honest. My big problem is that I am all paranoid about everyone always wrathing even if it is in a game where there are relatively few wraths. Creatures that draw cards over turns are sort of high profile. Its not as though nobody notices when you drop Phyrexian Arena, it is that it can be tough to answer on turn 3. However creatures coming in at 4 and 5 mana arent as hard to answer. I just dont feel like they will net all that many cards for me on average as I am sort of the "To Kill" player of the meta so nobdoy lets me have fun things like that...
Plague Boiler... I can drop Oblivion Stone into play and activate it in the same turn for a total cost of 8 mana. Plague Boiler on the other hand costs me 12 mana to try to do the same. The ability to drop and utilize these effects is huge in my meta as if you need that to wrath then I will just naturalize it. It happens all the time and so nobody can really get away with those type of effects by slow rolling them. We have wayyyyyyy too many green decks that eat up fun toys. I hit people's Nev Disks all the time and now nobody runs them anymore because if you want it I am eating it. I think it is cute but too expensive to utilize. If I was running a Glissa G/B deck it would be in though.
I am running this as a Jund goodstuff list. While I am not against a dragon making it into the list it would be completely apart from the fact that Karrthus is my commander. He is in as a wincon only. I dont want to dip into dragon tribal as I dont like it. I havent ever been much of a tribal player and I find it to be a bit bland. If a dragon is good enough to make the list on its own then ok but I couldnt find one that really fit the theme of the deck that I wanted in.
Mirri's Guile indeed a good card I just dont really require the topdeck manipulation. I think that 2 effects are fine. They are nice to have but I dont feel like I am hurting for them enough to stack 3+ in the list currently.
Minds Eye I might still consider adding it. The downside of it obviously being that it is expensive and slow to pay off. I guess I would have to try to figure out what the average card draw off of it is. It could be nice though but as of right now I dont know what would come out for it. The slowness of it sort of sucks too.
Terastodon felt like a bit of overkill. He could make it though but I think he is sort of a jerk. He is a d bag if you start copying with kiki / mimic vat... (I cant even tell you how many losses have been due to that...)
As for the ramp.... ehhh I considered having a bit more but the ramp in this list is actually quite similar to my jenara list. Farhaven Elf and Wood Elves have panned out for me well in the past as I can abuse them to multiple things, rez them. It has worked in the past. I guess a bit of playtesting with this particular list will tell me more on if I need more ramp though. Overall though I dont have that much that I really need stupid big mana for though. If I had more dragons / 6+ mana creatures I think I would need a bit more but this build going in is taking a build approach that I am familiar with in my Jenara list which has been fairly successful. I will adjust if need be though.
EDIT: Skinrender went out for Terastodon. The shotgunning land option is too viable to pass on. At the worst answering 3 utility cards and getting a 9/9 out of it is quite amazing.
EDIT 2: Skinrender back in for Flametongue Kavu due to it being able to better deal with larger creatures. I really like the art and feel to the Kavu more which makes me sad but I have to accept that 4 damage doesnt kill a lot in EDH so while the Skinrender can kill most of the same utility creatures it can also shrink big fatties down to size. Plus who wouldnt want to shrink a vultron commander down to pipsqueak size.
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[Modern] Allies
Cheers,
Max
So it just made me wonder why you decided to go with a more *goodstuff* themed jund deck, as apposed to something with at least one flying firebreathing scary dude in there? Hell, my Kresh deck has three dragons in it I believe. Granted, I guess it's not as much aggro control and probably not built as solid. But hell!
Here's my contribution to the thread Conspiracy. I'm sure you have thought about it, but naming all creatures you control as dragons and them all immediately having haste is kind've a neat thing. (Assuming he stays on the board)
Thanks Max,
I appreciate the compliment. I have sort of a way of designing decks that is sort of my own and comes from how I like playing and what I am used to playing against. I tend to view everything in the means of what is the immediate impact on the game and what are the chances that it will live for a turn. Something that is slow and works over time like Vigor I strongly dislike because of the fact that it is sort of a tactic that requires overextending and is sort of slow otherwise. I like a lot of utility creatures with ETB effects and cards that interact strongly with those types of creatures.
If I were to get into what Agro-Control is in a nutshell I would have to say the overall idea is to control the game to your liking while using creatures to win. The idea is that between the creatures you have in play plus the control you have in hand you control the flow of the game. Having chump blockers in play is a good way to make opponent's threats not come your way because if all I accomplish is force my opponent to use his Sakura-Tribe Elder then what the hell did I accomplish. So one part of the plan is to utilize ETB creatures in a means to get opponents to swing elsewhere. When that plan fails you resort primarily to spot removal. And if opponents overextend to get beyond your spot removal then wrath the board. Since all of our creatures are sort of ETB based there is a very low impact on our presence by wrathing as the creatures have alread done their job.
A quick breakdown on what I would tend to consider Agro-Control or how I usually go about creating a decklist.
CREATURES: When it comes to creatures I tend to shoot for the 25-35 creature range. When you start getting down to the 20 or less creatures in a list you generally go away from the agro based lists. When you push hard over 30 creatures you tend to start to loose some of the control elements as well and I tend to not go that route unless there is some sort of theme or really strong reason to do so. As for the type of creatures I tend to focus on creatures with immediate impacts on the game or easily recursive creatures. Creatures with ETB abilities give immediate results and thus if they are removed by means of spot removal or a wrath there is a low loss from them. Recursive creatures can come in several means but the more often ones self recur or persist. These creatures are value generating engines and when utilized with sac outlets or ETB abilities you get big payouts with them. Obviously though they hate graveyard hate so you have to watch how heavily you stock up with graveyard abilities vs how much graveyard hate you expect in a game. The more grave hate you expect to see the less recursive creatures you are probably going to want to run. Generally speaking the big rule on creatures is just try to stay away from vanilla as they are just plain bad. I also tend to stay away from creatures that buff other creatures such as the lieges IE Boartusk Liege.
SPOT REMOVAL: When it comes to disruption versatility is king. While I have no problems with something like Disenchant I would much prefur to run Oblation instead due to its increased options on targets. Generally speaking I pack in at least 3-5 instant speed removal options. So often it is instant speed removal that can make or break the game. If someone uses Tooth and Nail for a game ending combo usually a well placed spot removal can stop it. If someone wants to do a Hermit Druid combo on turn 2 then your only hope is to have an instant speed removal to stop them. Spot removal is very important to stop opponents from just flopping combo out on you. Even if you aren't running blue more often than not you can still interact with their combo.
BOARD WIPES: I can't stress the importance of balancing the right number of board wipes enough. If you don't run them then you tell your opponents that they can run right over you. If you run too many of them then everyone will expect you to clean up the mess all the time. Generally speaking 3-4 board wipes has felt about right for me. If you run tutors as well it helps back them up with some consistency for when you really need them. Dont forget to pack some artifact / enchantment hate in your wrath arsenal as it really can screw the non green player bad. It really helps vs combo decks as well as often they like dropping combo pieces like some of the mana stones and using them early in the game.
RAMP: Generally speaking this varries from player to player. Some players will swear to running like 15+ ramp cards which can be fine in the right meta but if you dont plan on comboing out yourself or dropping an Armageddon on turn 3 then I think that 5-10 can serve decently. Sometimes if you are the guy doing the lolz ramp you paint a target on yourself. If you can take that target then great but I for one would rather make some means of recurring the ramp and reusing it rather than rely on mana stones which I feel are a bit vulnerable. When it comes to running Agro-Control something like Wood Elves can really step up to the bat very well. The fact that we can rez them, strap equipment onto them, Birthing Pod off of them, or Skullclamp them really gives us a lot of things to generate additional value from.
I could easily go on but I would rather address a specific question you might have if you have any.
I did go back and forth a bit on the idea of packing in a bunch of dragons into the list but when it came down to it the reason that I did not was that I felt that most of the time that I would be willing to drop a dragon into play the better play was just to drop Karrthus. He kills in 3 shots on his own and he has haste + the ability to potentially steal blockers and make them mine. While I considered running a few other dragons namely Steel Helkite, Balefire Dragon, and Knollspine Dragon the problem is that if I am looking for a strict beater I like the idea of dropping Karrthus more. Also I am really a hardass about creatures not doing anything right away so I don't like creatures that start doing things after they sit for a turn and then after they connect to a player. In my mind I would rather play with creatures that have enters the battlefield options that have guaranteed value. I like Karrthus as a commander still because if I want to drop him in and hit someone in the face he can do that all on his own without assistance. That means that at every stage in the game I can drop him and hit someone making him a constant threat.
This is mainly a means of preference but I don't really go for the whole tribal deal. I don't mind theme decks but I dislike going tribal. I feel that the list is just stronger without it. While I wouldn't be against a dragon making it into the list I don't like banking on the interaction with the commander to give the second dragon haste as it is too unreliable in my opinion.
EDIT: sorry forgot to mention my thoughts on Conspiracy... I guess it is sort of cool as an anti creature theft sort of means but if I want haste I think that Fires of Yavimaya / Anger might just be better. Even then I am not a big one for spending a card to give haste. I would rather it be built in or rely on ETB abilities. If it made all creatures the chosen type then obviously it would be too powerful as I would drop Karrthus and steal everything but anyways... I think I will probably pass on it for now but it is interesting tech for him to say the least. Blades of Velis Vel does a great job for theft for me as is though. I have on a few occasions swung for like 30+ by stealing some eldrazi with it.
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I think it's possible to achieve this with other archetypes, but keeping these general rules (and some others that have been left out I'm sure), it is easier to make wiser card choices.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Additionally, what do you think about more aggressive options? Haste combined with big hard to deal with creatures seems like a decent plan. Stuff like Grave Titan, Inferno Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, etc combined with Urabrask the Hidden, Anger, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Furvor? Thoughts on cards like those?
Genesis has naturally over time been a card I have hated on due to most of my decks having a lack of means to discard / sacrifice. I have to be honest and say I hadnt really given him any thought for this list. I might need to give him some thought now as he could be a good add. His big downfall is that he is slow and doesnt really work until later in the game when you can sacrifice mana to recur creatures. In the first 6 to 8 turns or so he is sort of suck. After that he becomes quite good depending upon how much grave hate you expect to see. My meta sort of went a bit grave hate heavy in the last few months but I might run him for a bit and see how my results go. This would be the deck if ever there was one that I should put him in.
Sheoldred, Whispering One I have always had a problem with this creature. In my opinion it is bad Braids, Cabal Minion because if you ever, every think she will last until your upkeep you are joking yourself. Nobody at the table wants it to happen and in my opinion you are playing against joke opponents or someone is going to combo out and thus doesnt care anyways about it. I would say that 98% of games against real opponents she wont make it to rez a single card without jumping through a lot of hoops to do so. So, if you dont expect Sheoldred to last till your own upkeep to rez something then why not run Braids instead who costs less and hits the non agro players? The answer is Braids is just outright better.
REZ Options: I also have Puppeteer Clique, Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni, and Sword of Light and Shadow to rely on for rez. Plus dont forget that I have several recursive creatures such as Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, and Squee, Goblin Nabob which require the graveyard to utilize. If I stock up on too many graveyard recursion cards then I make my graveyard a potential weakness for if someone strips it. If I had a meta that hated a bit less on graveyards I could in fact go quite a ways beyond my current package. Animate Dead, Reanimate, Beacon of Unrest, Regrowth, Restock, and Praetor's Counsel and several other cards could also be added to this list. However I didnt want to focus too heavily on my graveyard so I put a bit of a lighter spin on it.
Haste + Fat: Honestly I am not as big of a fan of this. I dont like relying on multiple card strategies so relying on a haste outlet to stick to the board is sort of a bad strategy in my mind because it would never fly in my meta. The first thing I always kill is opponent's haste outlets. This applies for creatures like Urbrask, enchantments like Fires of Yavimaya, and grave tactics like Anger. They are high profile and so while they can work I dont think they work that well. I find that it is easier to create an easy strategy like making every creature good on its own rather than trying to set up things that are only good when combined with another specific card.
Titans: Honestly I think that Grave Titan is overrated. If your meta doesnt see many wraths then sure he is good but I have only seen him actually matter like once and that was because it was a turn 2 Grave Titan. I considered Inferno Titan but decided not to just because I felt he was a bit spendy for what we got from him. I think Wurmcoil Engine might be an option though that I might still consider.
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Worldly tutor and Noxious Revival are good if you continue to play Lurking Predators.
Look into Cauldron Dance. With ETB effects this can be amazing.
Greater Gargadon can help you reuse ETB effects as well.
I have a deck similar to this list but with more of an artifact sub-theme. I run Goblin Welder and Glissa for some recursion.
My meta is more diverse than yours but I am almost always playing against two good friends of mine who both have similar decks to you (creature based, disruptive, back with card advantage). The other decks I play against are either non distruptive combo decks, or people who kinda just durdle. From our discussions it's become clear to me that my decks are far too clunky and slow. I often find myself just getting run over before I get to play my cards. I have tried to rely on wrath effects to control the board but there is enough recurision in this format that I think I need to fight fire with fire and play similar strategies. Furthermore, playing with creatures is just more fun.
All in all thanks for your input ISB I'm going to give some thought to my Jund and Bant list then post them on here. Would you mind taking a look at them when I do?
Cheers,
Max
Fauna Shaman has long been on my meh list. I have run it several times and I still run it in my Edric deck. My problem is that it is really slow to work and only works once per turn. While I like my Survival of the Fittest I dont think that Fauna measures up nearly as well. In 1v1 I like her more but I have found her too random in EDH to really like. Sure she has good interactions with some of my self recuring creatures especially Squee but I have had more times where she is ineffective than times she has been effective.
Worldly tutor a decent card but outside of Lurking in play I dont find it that impressive. I dont like the card disadvantage but I guess it is possible I put it in the list.
Noxious Revival I would almost always run Regrowth before this card. Perhaps Edric might be the only deck that I would break this rule. I have considered more graveyard reuse effects but I find them a bit situational to say the least. I dont like relying too heavily on my graveyard as we do hate on graveyards in my meta so too much will make me a larger target.
Cauldron Dance I suppose I should consider it to say the least. I will put it in the possibles for now as it is a good card. I dont like the heavy mana cost to use it but it has some powerful interaction.
Greater Gargadon I have used him in the past and he is alright but I would probably include Goblin Bombardment first.
Goblin Welder possibly if I had more artifacts in the list. I have problems though with the fact that it takes time to get use out of it. I like fast results and he is more of a value over time creature.
Glissa, the Traitor I have considered her but more for the fact that she is an lolz blocker that just wins in combat. Again though I might need a bigger artifact pool for it but I like her a lot more than the welder due to her usefulness outside of rezing artifacts.
Yes in fact I do generally play in the same group every week. We play on tuesdays and some on the weekends depending on what is going on. While we dont run too much combo it is mainly that most of us dont find it that fun to play that way. We sort of frown on it a bit but it is still allowed and it still happens plenty. When you play regularly in the same group they sort of know what to expect out of your decks and so if you drop something broken but it takes a turn to be broken they will do their best to stop that card. Due to that I have sort of moved to a lot of ETB effects so that there are less threatening targets on my board beyond their coming into play effects.
As for the graveyard hate, you really should invest in some options for grave hate. If you are running black you get sooooo many options to hate on graveyards. Removing these threats will sort of show your meta that graveyards are not some forbidden place to hide threats.
Also another thing on the graveyard tangent. Graveyard rez can very often be extremely situational and rely on a lot of things to happen to be good. If someone drops a turn 3-6 Primeval Titan then you are hoping it dies but if someone uses Path to Exile on it then you loose your target, if someone plays a Nihil Spellbomb then you are not going to be able to use any of your graveyard tactics until it is gone. Relying too heavily on graveyard rez is sort of like putting all the eggs in one basket in the fact that it can backfire big on you so I tend to do it a bit lighter and I try to allow my graveyard abuse target opponent's graveyards as well when possible.
From what I have heard from you I think there are a few issues you might be having:
1) your mana curve is too high. If you are sitting with big things in hand and die before they are useful then you likely arent doing enough in the early to mid game and have too many high mana cards. Lowering this curve and make your creatures to have card advantage is a good thing. Something like Wall of Blossoms is a great card to draw late in the game as I pay 2 mana to play it and I get another card. This means that I got a blocker and it cost me no card advantage which is fantastic.
2) Wraths are great but they are very responsive and they do not make you go on the offensive. If you just wrath all the time you arent furthering your own threats but removing your opponents. Ideally if you can drop creatures into play to dissuade opponents from swinging your way then you have dual purposed shut down your opponent's offense and given yourself a threat. If that creature also gave you card advantage such as drawing some cards then you dont care as much if it dies.
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Also this list is still mostly untested. I plan on playing a lot with my Jenara and this list tonight as we are playing some EDH tonight. Hopefully I can get more insight on things that might need to change tonight. This is like my 3rd version of Karrthus though and I have played plenty of Jund and agro control EDH so I think the skeleton of this list should be solid.
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I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
Also as a side note I am generally happier with Decree of Pain than I am with Reiver Demon. If we could cheat the demon back into play and still get his effect I might think otherwise but that isnt the case.
As of right now I dont even have Decree of Pain in the list because I have had issues with too much high mana stuff so I don't know.
Also I have been considering swapping Mimic Vat out of here for Perilous Forays. The enchantment isnt that fast but it really ramps well into the mid - late game.
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Also, living death has been phenomenal in this deck for me. Kind of a "cheaper than decree" wrath. Great with persist and ETB creatures.
Good call on Living Death, I am used to running a much lower creature curve so it totally escaped me.
As for the land recursion... I just haven't ever been that impressed by it in the past. I think it is best when used with something like Azusa, Lost but Seeking which I don't run in the list. I have however considered upping the land ramp amount by adding both Cultivate and Kodama's Reach to the list. I just haven't been able to get enough test games in yet to really tell if I need them or not.
EDIT: brought in Living Death for Mimic Vat. Mimic Vat has been just a bit too slow to operate of late in most of my decks plus I figure its sort of a wrath / mass rez for a reanimate type effect so it seems like a decent swap.
EDIT 2: I added Sarkhan the Mad to the wishlist. I thought it might be funny to kill someone's sweet creature / commander then drop Karrthus and steal their dragon. Also he gives another sac outlet for reassembling skele and bloodghast that seems fairly cool. The big downside is that he is a suicide planeswalker but still he seems like he could have his uses.
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sword of feast and famine
bear umbra
nature's will
hellkite charger
aggravated assault
all these cards are perfectly playable in an aggro EDH deck (untapping all your lands is quite explosive) and you will be able to pull infinite combat phases out of nowhere.
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I have also seen these combos run but I saw them run in a Mayael the Anima list as he could take very good advantage of hellkite charger on his own without another card. Plus he had so much big mana stuff that if he could protect a big fatty and trigger untaps it meant more fatties coming in. It also works very well in a Kaalia of the Vast which is probably the best place for it as she absolutletly loves extra attack phases.
I think they are a decent combo I suppose, I just havent really had a lot of luck with any of the mentioned cards in the combo as standalone cards in my lists. When I can afford to I try to stay way from combos that use cards that I care less to draw and use as a standalone card.
As a side not last night I played another game with this list and I think I need to make a few adjustments. I realized I sort of hate having Squee, Goblin Nabob at just about any time. He is just so slow to work with and such a small body to him. I think I am going to replace him with Cultivate which will help towards some of the ramping issues. I have also considered it going to be Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Yavimaya Dryad. The decision is sort of tough as I have to consider if I want to keep the creature curve high for the utility effects.
Also I should really try to look for some more utility creatures and get some more tutors in the list to go get them. I feel like Jenara just has such a larger toolbox of effects between copying graveyard creatures, rezing creatures to play, stealing creatures and what not. I need to do a bit more homework I think and see if I cant broaden it a bit. I think I might also want to cut Terastodon from the list and make it something smaller. It has worked alright so far in Jenara but I havent been feeling the same from him in here.
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I also wanted to look through the R and B ETB creatures a bit more to see what I could sort of find for possible options that I am not already running. This is what I came up with:
Big Game Hunter I like that there is no power 4+ clause on this guy and he is very cost effective.
Bone Shredder another option as well but the nonblack really sort of annoys me more than it probably should.
Fleshbag Marauder I do have a good number of expendible creatures and the extra control here looks like fun. Sometimes sac just doesnt do the trick but I like how it effects everyone. I might like Big Game Hunter a bit more though.
Skeletal Vampire I think he is cool especially considering his tokens fly which is bad ass but I think the Siage gang is winning me over more than this guy due to the control aspects + usability with Matron. I do really love the flying aspects of this token producer though.
Goblin Matron I like the card advantage as it goes to hand and it can hit Kiki-Jiki which is sweet. I just need to make sure I have enough goblins to make this work out.
Siege-Gang Commander Some removal options and some bodies. I can use the bodies for a lot of different things such as chump blocking, shooting them off for 2 dmg apeace, equiping them with swords, skullclamping them. I think overall I like him and he does make for a good second goblin option for me to use the Matron.
Imperial Recruiter omg I would sooooooo love to add this guy to the list but this is a budget issue. I am looking to possibly make a big trade in for a large part of my collection and if I can get this deck up and running a bit better I would love to add this guy to the list. Sadly I will have to invest a minimum of close to $200.00 for this guy sooo.... sort of a pipe dream currently. He would be a powerful add though.
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After looking at a few possible options on some changes I was thinking about making the following changes:
POSSIBLE CUTS:
Praetor's Grasp it is a good card but I think I would rather be ramping here. I can usually find something worth tutoring for but I need more ramp and draw which I feel I can cut this for.
Garruk, Primal Hunter he is a cool card draw outlet but I dont see him doing anything else. The token spawning is cool but he is hard to defend for long in multiplayer. I think that Mind's Eye might give me a bit of a smoother card draw option that is a lot less dependent on things working for me.
Terastodon he is good but he is slow and I need to trim things down to draw more and ramp harder. I really wish I could get a Harmonic Sliver in here but I havent found anything that feels nearly as powerful as it is.
Shivan Harvest It seems like fun but I think it will draw a lot of hate if I ever get it going. I have not drawn it yet but it feels a bit underwhelming.
Seedguide Ash sort of slower ramp in the fact that I need a sac outlet as well to reliably use it right away. I like him still but I need to ramp harder and faster.
Squee, Goblin Nabob I have not liked drawing him of late as he is just slow to use and hard to utilize in here. He is alright but man I just hate paying 3 to recast him and I can only do it once per turn and bloodghast and reassembling feel so much more powerful in the same role.
LOOKING AT ADDING:
Cultivate More efficient ramp. I don't like how it is hard to abuse due to the fact that the deck cannot abuse sorcery effects very easily.
Kodama's Reach same as Cultivate.
Yavimaya Dryad Another ETB creature that ramps me a mana. The fact that it is forest only and it costs GG is a bit of a worry but I like keeping the creature count high.
Mind's Eye Some good card draw and I just think it will be a bit more stable than Garruk, Primal Hunter in my opinion.
Goblin Matron I was sort of thinking of making a small goblin package using this guy and a few other select goblins. Ideally this slot should probably be Imperial Recruiter but due to costs I am forced to run lesser cards.
Siege-Gang Commander he is sort of to expand my goblin package a bit in case I draw kiki before the Matron. I think he has a lot of great uses in the list anyways as control and abuse.
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Goblin Matron
Goblin Welder
Siege-Gang Commander
Goblin Settler
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
You could also run things like Warren Weirding and potentially Boggart Harbinger as well. I find that they tend to streamline the deck in to a more consistent machine overall. I've had great success with them.
Goblin Matron currently adding it to try it out a little. I think it has some potential.
Goblin Welder I am just running too small of an artifact package to really see him shine. I think he is cool but I dont like utility creatures that work over time in play. I would rather ETB abilities, death abilities, and easy recursion when I can on my creatures.
Siege-Gang Commander I am giving him a shot too. I like how he comes sort of army in a can style and at 5 mana + part of a goblin tutorable package he seems like fun.
Goblin Settler I considered it but I dont know how heavily I want to invest in target LD. He is fun with kiki that is for sure but I dont know if I really like it as a standalone card.
Squee, Goblin Nabob currently cutting him out due to him feeling like he is too clunky. Bloodghast and Reassembling just reanimate so much better than he does that he always feels the worst of the 3. Sure he is fun with skullclamp and survival but outside of that I have had plenty of problems with him.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker already in the list but I have yet to draw him. Thus the inclusion of the Matron.
Boggart Harbinger I believe he is just strictly worse than Goblin Recruiter unless I am mistaken.
I am not against adding another 1-2 targets for my goblin package but currently I just feel like too many of the goblins sort of just suck.
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Sneak attack is just cheating with etb creatures like terastodon (which I would surely have a hard time cutting).
Greater good is cards plus a sac outlet. Maybe not as good with you're tiny dudes but can end games with woodfall primus shenanigans.
Adding the small rampy sorceries do seem a little non-syn with the rest of the deck. Maybe if you're adding a Garruk, make it 1.0. He's rampy and reusable.
As an aside, do you plan on playing in multiplayer games or 1 on 1? If multi, how many players do you usually play with at a table? I'm throwing cards out that I like in a 3-4 man game.