So I've been trying to play around with a werewolf deck for awhile but came to the conclusion that the aggro wasn't strong enough and the "flip" was getting stopped by them playing spells. The fix? Don't let them play spells Your options for that are either discard or land destruction (countering doesn't help much) - and I'm a particular fan of the latter so went with it and this deck is doing surprisingly well with only the strongest werewolf - the mayor.
Basic Premise - destroy so much land that either the Mayor just walks in through the win or use the other tools (Township/Wolf Run/Garruk) to finish the deal while you hit them with the mana dorks.
So far I've done some pretty decent testing against Mono-green, Tempered Steel, Vampires, RDW, Pod/Blade variants, Architect and some other rogue decks. By far the best opener seems to be....
Turn 1 - Land, Mana-dork
Turn 2 - Land, Mayor, Mana-dork (if they don't play anything, that can be game). I can also just Zenith for the Mayor.
Turn 3 - If they did play something, play nothing and at beginning of their turn use Beast Within on their land. If they didn't, normal LD.
Turn 4 - LD
Turn 5 - LD
At this point, it's pretty common to still have more LD but most people can't handle losing 3 land drops and having a mayor pump out a 3/3 every turn. It's surprisingly effective - my only issue is some consistency but I think fudging with the card amounts of each one and land fixing may do the trick.
Now some things I've been debating on...
Which Planeswalker? - Garruk, Primal Hunter vs Garruk Relentless - one gives wolfs (which actually go with the mayor) and tutor abilities with one time removal, while Primal gives bigger beasts, card advantage and a possible game win condition. Obviously Relentless is also a lot easier to play (no GGG req) and also reliable can come out quicker. Can't decide! I was debating on just running one of each and seeing when each helped me...
Dropping Red all together for... -
White. I could probably mainboard Oblivion Ring over Tectonic Rift but again part of the strength is in so much removal. Tectonic Rift also helps a ton versus token/weenie decks on actually getting through to win. Only real land removal is the Glimmerpoint Stag which really is just a stall. As much as the sideboard and pilgrim would benefit from this, I can't see it helping that much over Rift.
Blue. I tried swapping it for Blue but wasn't too big of a fan - tried Snapcaster Mage but it is usually in too late to matter much. Frost Titan was very helpful when he came out quickly (kind of hard to remove him in a Land Destruction deck) and in a way he can tap their remaining land. If only they had bounce that worked on lands! At best Ponder could be used on their turn after dropping a mayor to have him flip and fix my hand. Phyrexian Metamorph was also nice for copying an acidic slime or mayor (can't be flipped back).
Black. Thought about adding in Small Pox and some removal but the Black LD options are terrible. A deck could be made to work around this with maybe adding in Altar's Reap, Caravan Vigil and even the new Curse of Death's Hold but it just doesn't seem to help majorly and pulls away from the main consistency of LD every turn.
Dropping some of the mana dorks for land gathering - the idea would be to swap out like the llanowar elves for rampant growth and other such cards. Drawing land later on can be painful but at the same time the little guys can win with the Township land and come out faster. Caravan Vigil is only the closest one and I can't rely on morbid firing in this. Any suggestions for mid-game consistency would be nice - not seeing any amazing green draw options. Make a Wish isn't terrible considering my graveyard is primarily all LD.
Finalizing on a solid sideboard would be nice - Obviously the sideboard is a work in progress - lot of times I've just been leaving it as is since part of the success comes from killing land every turn for 3-5 turns consistently. I usually just threw in a few things removing Exarch and either set of the land win conditions. Stony silence seemed to really surprise a lot of people given the lack of white main played. Daybreak Ranger was pretty much gg versus various flyer decks (including the infect flyer sword deck) and other creature fights. I cannot tell you enough how funny it is to win game one, and in game two go on turn three Nevermore and see those delicious tears when you name their winning card when they never thought they'd need enchantment hate for your deck. I would like to add in one or two green creatures to help versus various decks to get with Zenith but can't think of any off the top of my head.
ANY HELP WOULD BE MUCH APRECIATED! Its done well enough that I really think it can become a contender. Just jumping back into the Standard saddle and despite me asking "what does that card do?" most matches I surprisingly win a lot with this deck. Try it out and let me know what you think.
If anything it kills some combo lands (inkmouth nexus, someone else's Township, etc) or mana fixing. Also spell density is actually fine - I don't want them drawing land, I could care less if they draw something they can't play
Arbiter also can kill my ability to Zenith. Turn two Arbiter then Ghost Quarter isn't bad though. I'll think on it...
If anything it kills some combo lands (inkmouth nexus, someone else's Township, etc) or mana fixing.
Agreed. If that is it's purpose its fine. But if the purpose is land destruction it does not cut the mustard.
I tried working on some GhostQuarter.dec builds earlier (thread linked); GW and UW and Bant.
I think that these decks are fundamentally different to yours. Your idea of using mana denial to promote Werewolves seems more viable. It just so happens that there is a 2 card potential overlap.
If you are interested in some thoughts on the sub-component of a Ghost Quarter + Leonin Arbiter interaction then maybe the thread will be of use (linked above).
Agreed... Quarter + Arbiter = Win
Arbiter could cause problems with green sun zenith though
Maybe tossing in a vorinclex just for laughs
Tumble magnets would be great to control the board while youre building up more mana
What about chandra, the firebrand? Either way the deck looks kinda slow to me, and vulnerable to cheap burn on the mayor, but that's just my initial impression. Chandra, ping an x/1 hopefully into a double LD seems good, though I dunno if she is worth it.
I've been wanting to do Land Destruction for quite a while now. However, the Land Destruction spells just costed to much. We had more land destruction cards last set too. Losing Tectonic Edge is a big hit as well.
Firebrand is good if your LD actually resolves. Otherwise the deck seems super slow even with mana dorks.
I can tell you that it consistently drops a LD on either turn 2 or 3, and continually for 2-4 more turns. The only real issue I've had is against super weenie decks that have things that only cost 2 or less but usually it seems to be a coin flip at best for them - if I get to play first, it's usually still mine to win.
Casting something that is 3/4 by turn 2/3 is pretty easy.
Arbiter could be a good sideboard against "search" heavy decks....
What about Invader Parasite? An aggressive little beater, LD, and some pretty serious pain all in one.
Infernal Plunge could be interesting, too---you can tap a BOP to play a turn 2, 5cc LD. Or, sac an extra mana dork later for some speedier shenanigans.
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Infernal Plunge I tried out and didn't care for it - the problem was that by losing the mana dorks, you lost some consistency on later turns and sometimes actual win conditions (beating down with little guys and the Township). That and most of the LD isn't red.
Invader Parasite....eh I'm mixed on. I decided I liked the Exarch better just because it's easier to cast (double red can sometimes be a pain in bad drops with so little red sources) and because it actually has a secondary condition that can help. If I fudged the mana sources, maybe but not sold on this guy just yet. I'd consider it more if I switched to the new Garruk since I'd be less worried about hitting GGG.
Now that's not half bad of an idea - I've got plenty of things to copy and it can always copy their spells as well. Hmmmm.....good suggestion!
Does anyone have any suggestions on mana fixing or know of any tools to help out? It's a pain in the ass to try and figure out mana curve, etc with 12 mana dorks.
The Township land has been doing quite well for me over trying to use Overrun. Reason being that I usually have issue with weenie style decks because they can still play with 1-2 lands and overrun may get through once or not, depending on how bad the weenies are. Township basically says that you'll win in time and as long as I'm making a constant threat of wolfs and land destruction, I'll eventually be bigger as is.
As an update, played against a Bod/Skinshifter/DGrove deck and Tempered Steel deck for quite awhile - stomped the hell out of them both for close to 15 games losing only 1 or 2
I have tried a similar deck with chandra, the firebrand and splashing blue for some snapcaster mage to get some added use out of the LD spells. I also ran daybreak ranger as her transformed side is a house at killing your opponent's Beast after beast within LD.
Now that's not half bad of an idea - I've got plenty of things to copy and it can always copy their spells as well. Hmmmm.....good suggestion!
Does anyone have any suggestions on mana fixing or know of any tools to help out? It's a pain in the ass to try and figure out mana curve, etc with 12 mana dorks.
Is there any reason why you aren't running Rootbound Crag? I would lose the ghost quarters, add these, and run all forests, unless you end up running something with RR, drop 4 elves for rampant growth, and potentially swap the other elves for viridian emissary. If you're going at their lands hard, viridian can almost single handedly win the game for you if they don't have an answer. If they do have an answer, he gets you ramp. He's not a one drop, but one drops are much better only if you want 3 cmc turn two, which I don't think you care too much about that. Turn 2 beast within is risky.
I also think garruk relentless is better here. His wolves are smaller, but with good pressure on the land front, your opponent will likely only be able to cast small creatures, and relentless can burn them, and then help you fetch more acidic slime or exarch. It's a close call, but I would go with the 4 cmc guy personally.
Nice build though, If liliana doesn't drop in price, I might try this. (I plan on trying BG or BUG smallpox/ld variation.)
I'm not using Rootbound Crag because I've had issues with it being in my hand without a forest. The idea of something coming in tapped severely can hamper my ability to consistently drop a land destruction on turn two or three. It's the same reason I've kept the elves over Rampant Growth since I want a mana dork always in my first hand - if I start with a Rampant Growth it's actually really bad because I can't drop a mayor or xenith for one on turn two then. As bad as it sounds, it's very key for this deck to kill lands very quickly and since most are 4cc, I need that by turn 2 or 3 or they have enough land usually to fight it off.
Viridian Emissary doesn't ramp in a LD deck. I could see it as maybe sideboard against a heavy burn or removal deck that decides to remove my mana dorks though.
Yeah, I've been having good luck with Relentless but sometimes the other Garruk can win the game. Maybe it's a sideboard swap against certain decks....
I've been playing with using Reverberate and it's been going pretty well. Chandra is nice but having both set of planeswalkers is a bit overkill and cuts into the LD. Snapcaster doesn't work so well because he always forces my werewolfs to flip and I need 6cc to cast an LD (and I don't have anything smaller to copy) when I can get the same thing from a Reverberate and copy their spells as well.
THANKS for the feedback, I'll update the main post with my recent changes. Working on a finalized sideboard set and put in the reverberates and swapped the Garruks.
I'm building a similar deck. But I really want to utilise the arbiter.
I don't know how to deck tag or whatever... someone inbox me how... but I'm thinking of making it U/G/W something like...
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Avamancyr's Pilgrim
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Sun Titan
1x Primeval Titan
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Bramblecrush
4x Acidic Slime
4x Due Respect
4x Mana leak
4x Ghost Quarter
Not sure on land base yet.
Best scenario:
T1, birds or avamancyrs pilgrim
T2, Ghost quarters + leonin arbiter. Crack GQ.
go from there.
Leaks to keep stuff off the board when you're ahead, and its cheap so losing a GQ early doesn't stop you from playing it.
Due respect causing lands/creatures to come into play tapped on oppenents turn, and replaces itself for 2 mana? I see no qualms.
Sun Titan's to recur Arbiters/Ghost quarters so you can strip mine them all day long. Primeval (just thought of adding that as i was typing up the list) to help fetch quarters, and win more on land count.
Mirran crusader is efficient as hell, especially when they don't even have the capability to answer one.
Other contemplations... Beast within... but don't really wanna get smacked by the tokens... and board clearers are anti-arbiter. But I really think something like this could be viable.
Not to rag on the idea, but your deck really isn't similar. Taking out the mayors is kinda the main win condition - not to mention going from G/r to G/W/U. Best of luck though
Oh snap. I'd much rather run those than the crusaders, what a great idea, I never really looked at mayor... And I forgot techtonic rift was printed... it seemed kinda lackluster when it came out... I've got things to think about.
Its just similar as its plan is to control the game by denying land, with a little ramp and some smack in the face with efficient creatures. I just think that the whole Sun Titan + Leonin Arbiter + GQ adds inevitability. I HAD to go white for due respect. When you are playing a very tempo based deck, having a card like that can really buy you some time. And like I said, it replaces itself. Yay! Just tossing some ideas out... but yeah... Those mayors need in my deck meow.
Also "I also ran daybreak ranger as her transformed side is a house at killing your opponent's Beast after beast within LD." That's a neat little Idea too. Fun!
This list looks fun, but don't the slagstorms not like your ramping/most of your creatures? Or do you find you are able to ramp enough to get ahead and they don't matter by that point?
Also thinking about venser in my list above... Bouncing an acidic slime every turn could get ugly, along with the recurring sun titan/GQ BS. haha. I should almost make my own thread.
Usually if a Slagstorm is necessary, all my dorks are crispy critters already, or the game has progressed beyond my need for them. They're really there to help me explode out of the gates, with a turn 3 LD spell; with 25 land, I have an easy enough time keeping up mana-wise, even with them toasted. Same with the rest of my dudes. If Slagstorm is necessary, then obviously my board presence isn't doing the job.
Also, I think I might add a Primeval Titan over one of the Mayors. That way I can fetch my Wolf Runs and give them a pounding.
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4 Acidic Slime
4 Tectonic Rift
4 Bramblecrush
4 Beast Within
4 Ghost Quarter
Search and also LD (6)
3 Green Sun's Zenith (insta-slime)
3 Ancient Grudge (combo)
3 Liquimetal Coating (combo)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Llanowar Elves
Win Conditions (8)
3 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
Land (14/20)
4 Copperline Gorge
6 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Daybreak Ranger (Weenies)
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Stony Silence (Sword/Artificer)
2 Tree of Redemption (RDW)
2 Nevermore (the rest)
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
*** Update - First pass at a sideboard ***
Basic Premise - destroy so much land that either the Mayor just walks in through the win or use the other tools (Township/Wolf Run/Garruk) to finish the deal while you hit them with the mana dorks.
So far I've done some pretty decent testing against Mono-green, Tempered Steel, Vampires, RDW, Pod/Blade variants, Architect and some other rogue decks. By far the best opener seems to be....
Turn 1 - Land, Mana-dork
Turn 2 - Land, Mayor, Mana-dork (if they don't play anything, that can be game). I can also just Zenith for the Mayor.
Turn 3 - If they did play something, play nothing and at beginning of their turn use Beast Within on their land. If they didn't, normal LD.
Turn 4 - LD
Turn 5 - LD
At this point, it's pretty common to still have more LD but most people can't handle losing 3 land drops and having a mayor pump out a 3/3 every turn. It's surprisingly effective - my only issue is some consistency but I think fudging with the card amounts of each one and land fixing may do the trick.
Now some things I've been debating on...
Which Planeswalker? - Garruk, Primal Hunter vs Garruk Relentless - one gives wolfs (which actually go with the mayor) and tutor abilities with one time removal, while Primal gives bigger beasts, card advantage and a possible game win condition. Obviously Relentless is also a lot easier to play (no GGG req) and also reliable can come out quicker. Can't decide! I was debating on just running one of each and seeing when each helped me...
Dropping Red all together for... -
Dropping some of the mana dorks for land gathering - the idea would be to swap out like the llanowar elves for rampant growth and other such cards. Drawing land later on can be painful but at the same time the little guys can win with the Township land and come out faster. Caravan Vigil is only the closest one and I can't rely on morbid firing in this. Any suggestions for mid-game consistency would be nice - not seeing any amazing green draw options. Make a Wish isn't terrible considering my graveyard is primarily all LD.
Finalizing on a solid sideboard would be nice - Obviously the sideboard is a work in progress - lot of times I've just been leaving it as is since part of the success comes from killing land every turn for 3-5 turns consistently. I usually just threw in a few things removing Exarch and either set of the land win conditions. Stony silence seemed to really surprise a lot of people given the lack of white main played. Daybreak Ranger was pretty much gg versus various flyer decks (including the infect flyer sword deck) and other creature fights. I cannot tell you enough how funny it is to win game one, and in game two go on turn three Nevermore and see those delicious tears when you name their winning card when they never thought they'd need enchantment hate for your deck. I would like to add in one or two green creatures to help versus various decks to get with Zenith but can't think of any off the top of my head.
ANY HELP WOULD BE MUCH APRECIATED! Its done well enough that I really think it can become a contender. Just jumping back into the Standard saddle and despite me asking "what does that card do?" most matches I surprisingly win a lot with this deck. Try it out and let me know what you think.
Ghost Quarter + Leonin Arbiter on the otherhand = Strip Mine
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
Arbiter also can kill my ability to Zenith. Turn two Arbiter then Ghost Quarter isn't bad though. I'll think on it...
Agreed. If that is it's purpose its fine. But if the purpose is land destruction it does not cut the mustard.
I tried working on some GhostQuarter.dec builds earlier (thread linked); GW and UW and Bant.
I think that these decks are fundamentally different to yours. Your idea of using mana denial to promote Werewolves seems more viable. It just so happens that there is a 2 card potential overlap.
If you are interested in some thoughts on the sub-component of a Ghost Quarter + Leonin Arbiter interaction then maybe the thread will be of use (linked above).
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
You play a bunch of mana dorks and make tokens...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7718699&postcount=248
Arbiter could cause problems with green sun zenith though
Maybe tossing in a vorinclex just for laughs
Tumble magnets would be great to control the board while youre building up more mana
[quote=someuser]bad joke[/quote]
[list]list of poorly named decks[/list]
Firebrand is good if your LD actually resolves. Otherwise the deck seems super slow even with mana dorks.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Casting something that is 3/4 by turn 2/3 is pretty easy.
Arbiter could be a good sideboard against "search" heavy decks....
Infernal Plunge could be interesting, too---you can tap a BOP to play a turn 2, 5cc LD. Or, sac an extra mana dork later for some speedier shenanigans.
Invader Parasite....eh I'm mixed on. I decided I liked the Exarch better just because it's easier to cast (double red can sometimes be a pain in bad drops with so little red sources) and because it actually has a secondary condition that can help. If I fudged the mana sources, maybe but not sold on this guy just yet. I'd consider it more if I switched to the new Garruk since I'd be less worried about hitting GGG.
Does anyone have any suggestions on mana fixing or know of any tools to help out? It's a pain in the ass to try and figure out mana curve, etc with 12 mana dorks.
Instant speed, easier to cast, flashback eligible, comes out earlier and easier?
Is there any reason why you aren't running Rootbound Crag? I would lose the ghost quarters, add these, and run all forests, unless you end up running something with RR, drop 4 elves for rampant growth, and potentially swap the other elves for viridian emissary. If you're going at their lands hard, viridian can almost single handedly win the game for you if they don't have an answer. If they do have an answer, he gets you ramp. He's not a one drop, but one drops are much better only if you want 3 cmc turn two, which I don't think you care too much about that. Turn 2 beast within is risky.
I also think garruk relentless is better here. His wolves are smaller, but with good pressure on the land front, your opponent will likely only be able to cast small creatures, and relentless can burn them, and then help you fetch more acidic slime or exarch. It's a close call, but I would go with the 4 cmc guy personally.
Nice build though, If liliana doesn't drop in price, I might try this. (I plan on trying BG or BUG smallpox/ld variation.)
Viridian Emissary doesn't ramp in a LD deck. I could see it as maybe sideboard against a heavy burn or removal deck that decides to remove my mana dorks though.
Yeah, I've been having good luck with Relentless but sometimes the other Garruk can win the game. Maybe it's a sideboard swap against certain decks....
I've been playing with using Reverberate and it's been going pretty well. Chandra is nice but having both set of planeswalkers is a bit overkill and cuts into the LD. Snapcaster doesn't work so well because he always forces my werewolfs to flip and I need 6cc to cast an LD (and I don't have anything smaller to copy) when I can get the same thing from a Reverberate and copy their spells as well.
THANKS for the feedback, I'll update the main post with my recent changes. Working on a finalized sideboard set and put in the reverberates and swapped the Garruks.
I don't know how to deck tag or whatever... someone inbox me how... but I'm thinking of making it U/G/W something like...
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Avamancyr's Pilgrim
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Sun Titan
1x Primeval Titan
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Bramblecrush
4x Acidic Slime
4x Due Respect
4x Mana leak
4x Ghost Quarter
Not sure on land base yet.
Best scenario:
T1, birds or avamancyrs pilgrim
T2, Ghost quarters + leonin arbiter. Crack GQ.
go from there.
Leaks to keep stuff off the board when you're ahead, and its cheap so losing a GQ early doesn't stop you from playing it.
Due respect causing lands/creatures to come into play tapped on oppenents turn, and replaces itself for 2 mana? I see no qualms.
Sun Titan's to recur Arbiters/Ghost quarters so you can strip mine them all day long. Primeval (just thought of adding that as i was typing up the list) to help fetch quarters, and win more on land count.
Mirran crusader is efficient as hell, especially when they don't even have the capability to answer one.
Other contemplations... Beast within... but don't really wanna get smacked by the tokens... and board clearers are anti-arbiter. But I really think something like this could be viable.
Its just similar as its plan is to control the game by denying land, with a little ramp and some smack in the face with efficient creatures. I just think that the whole Sun Titan + Leonin Arbiter + GQ adds inevitability. I HAD to go white for due respect. When you are playing a very tempo based deck, having a card like that can really buy you some time. And like I said, it replaces itself. Yay! Just tossing some ideas out... but yeah... Those mayors need in my deck meow.
Also "I also ran daybreak ranger as her transformed side is a house at killing your opponent's Beast after beast within LD." That's a neat little Idea too. Fun!
4 Acidic Slime
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Mayor of Avabruck
Spells - 17
4 Tectonic Rift
4 Bramblecrush
4 Beast Within
2 Slagstorm
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
3 Hinterland Harbor
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Rootbound Crag
5 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Island
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!
This list looks fun, but don't the slagstorms not like your ramping/most of your creatures? Or do you find you are able to ramp enough to get ahead and they don't matter by that point?
Also thinking about venser in my list above... Bouncing an acidic slime every turn could get ugly, along with the recurring sun titan/GQ BS. haha. I should almost make my own thread.
Also, I think I might add a Primeval Titan over one of the Mayors. That way I can fetch my Wolf Runs and give them a pounding.
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!