Sooo... a bit of a new spin on things. I want to try to revisit thraximundar but make it a bit combo oriented and still strong control sort of a spin off of the style of deck that my old wydwen deck is to see which I like more. I dont know if this will make it to an actual deck or just stay a theorycraft but I enjoyed putting it together.
Plan A: Combo out utilizing control to slow opponents down and thrax to eat up creatures / stall / use up opponents resources.
Plan B: Swing at people with Thrax until they die.
When considering what I wanted to do I had to keep in mind the amount of mana that thrax costs. I tried running thrax as my primary wincon way back when I had thrax put together last. My issues with this is that mana stones are sort of fragile and so if I rely on having a ton of them in play I will get blown up. Due to this I cut back on my mana stones and am relying less on thrax as a wincon so much as a control mechinism that can beat people up.
A few of the combos:
Clutch of the Undercity + Radiate lol I know its mean but funny. I believe that I get to control how the copies go on the stack so I can put all of my bounces last so I can kill my opponents first before dying myself.
To go with the turnabout + reiterate combo I would suggest mischievous quanar. He fulfills the same role as reiterate in the combo, but has the capability of splitting when to pay the cost when copying other spells. You have a lot of good tutors to get extra effect from.
The overall cost of copying a spell is higher, but with him out you only need to leave 1UU up rather than 6 to buyback reiterate. I am a very big fan of being able to defer the cost to a later turn.
I have a strong tendency to stick as many effects onto creatures as possible, so they can serve multiple roles. Sometimes you'd rather have more resilience, but I am a fan of graveborn muse and bloodgift demon over phyrexian arena. I also tend to run more equipment though.
I also notice that you took out a strong control element in gravepact effects. Those can keep the board down for you, open up attack paths, and boost thrax.
To go with the turnabout + reiterate combo I would suggest mischievous quanar. He fulfills the same role as reiterate in the combo, but has the capability of splitting when to pay the cost when copying other spells. You have a lot of good tutors to get extra effect from.
The overall cost of copying a spell is higher, but with him out you only need to leave 1UU up rather than 6 to buyback reiterate. I am a very big fan of being able to defer the cost to a later turn.
The big problem there is my meta is sort of creature removal heavy and counterspell light so there is a matter of the fact that Reiterate is harder to stop in my meta.
Overall you are correct that the Quanar is better from a mana perspective but I think he has a higher chance of being killed than I have for someone to interfere with an all instant speed deal. I think I am ok with it being a bit slower and having it harder to interfere with.
I might also swap Starstorm to be Comet Storm as another wincon... If I do that I should probably invest in picking up at least one more wrath / bounce effect.
I was also wondering if I might need a few more mana stones... I need to get up to mana quickly and be able to output quite a bit of mana.
EDIT: I am pulling Nezumi Graverobber for Capsize. That should fix one card I was looking to pick up. I figure I still have 2 other graveyard hosers in the list and that should be fine.
Might I interest you in Flowstone Slide or bane of the living? Both of them can fit in the correct aggro/control strategies. Both of them also kill indestructibles.
Flowstone is rather more mana intensive, but can be used offensively as well. Crank x=5 and attack with an 11/1 Thraxman. (who then probably becomes 12/2). Add a psychotic Fury for good effect.
Bane is a personal favorite, due to the ability to carry a sword. Smack someone with a sworded morph enough, and they'll do something drastic, and then he can more than pay for himself. In some situations he can even stick around.
It seems in a removal heavy meta, you may actually prefer the Arena over the creatures I listed for survivability reasons. Also, that would probably lower the value of gravepact too.
I like Pestermite more than Deceiver Exarch. They have the same combo potential but without the combo I'd rather have a 2/1 flier than a 1/4 defensive creature. The exception would be if you're expecting aggressive token decks and you need a more defense oriented guy and I know you play against a good amount of token decks.
Also since you're running black and red I think you could improve on the removal a little bit. Pongify could go for Terminate or Go for the Throat and Electrolyze could be a lot of different thinks, maybe Crosis's Charm or Grixis Charm? Both pretty flexible cards.
Other than that it looks really good. If Thrax is going to play a bigger role you're probably going to need more mana rocks but they aren't as important if you're focusing on the combos.
I was picking thrax more as a control element and a backup plan. I dont think he will be the primary plan for the deck. I tried that once and I had trouble keeping the mana up to do so. My meta is also really harsh on artifact / enchantments as we use O Stones and Austere Command all the time so I had a hard time last I tried making it an agro deck. This one is going to be more of a combo / control.
As for the wrath options... I guess indestructable guys havent really been that big of a deal for me. I think I might actually go the route of Blasphemous Act for another wrath effect if I can find room for it. I have run bane of the living in the past and found it too slow to use. Flowstone Slide just feels like it would end up costing tons of mana to utilize as well.
Also when I first went to make this list I intended it to be an agro deck but then I realized that my creature count kept shrinking with every alter I made and my spells kept going up. Finally I needed to ditch a lot of the creature support and go more towards spell support. Believe me I really wanted those swords to make it in the list but I think I have too many other things I want to be doing and I have a lot less emphasis on my creatures in here.
Also I suppose I could swap to Pestermite I dont think its a big deal either way. The ability to block flying voltron commanders is fairly important.
EDIT: As for the spot removal.... I just dont know how much I like either of the charms in grixis. I guess out of the two of them I like Grixis Charm a bit more but Pongify has the upside of being so damn cheap to cast.
Also when I first went to make this list I intended it to be an agro deck but then I realized that my creature count kept shrinking with every alter I made and my spells kept going up. Finally I needed to ditch a lot of the creature support and go more towards spell support. Believe me I really wanted those swords to make it in the list but I think I have too many other things I want to be doing and I have a lot less emphasis on my creatures in here.
I think that would be a good idea. If you can reduce the creature count enough you can run a lot of sweepers and the red ones work very well for Repercussion. I imagine you can just kill the token decks outright with Repercussion but it looks too dangerous in your current configuration. Blasphemous Act + Repercussion is nasty.
I think that would be a good idea. If you can reduce the creature count enough you can run a lot of sweepers and the red ones work very well for Repercussion. I imagine you can just kill the token decks outright with Repercussion but it looks too dangerous in your current configuration. Blasphemous Act + Repercussion is nasty.
I agree that keeping the creature curve down is probably a good idea in here. I do like having occasional blockers though and they are good value engines. I kept the big fatties down as best as I could and I trimmed it back from like 25 originally.
While I think Repercussion + Blasphemous Act is cute I feel like it is a bit gimicky in the fact that it will only work against certain type of decks. If I am going to tutor for combo pieces I want them to work regardless of the deck I am facing.
I might end up cutting some of the creatures for more sweepers though... Perhaps I should look into which sweepers I want in here.
EDIT: I was thinking of taking Necromancy out for Blasphemous Act. While rez is good and all it is very situational and more often in a creature light list I will probably need an answer to my opponents multiple creatures.
The Darksteel series of creatures, like the Gargoyle or Sentinel can prove to be excellent deterrents to attack.
I have the Sentinel already. I like him more than the gargoyle as he can be a surprise and keep my options open. Occasionally his vigilance is useful as well to poke at planeswalkers. Plus he is tutorable off of Mystical Teachings.
I dont know if I like the Gargoyle due to the lack of flash even if it can block flying. Somehow the lack of flash just makes it feel so much clunkier.
Stuffy Doll is a personal favorite for this. Sometimes he even encourages attackers.
Hummm that could be fun with the Blasphemous Act. Plus it costs 2 less than the Gargoyle. Mayhaps I will give him a shot. The new doll that flips a coin to kill creatures could be fun as well.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Hmm, missed the sentinel in your list, sorry. The gargoyle is expensive... He isn't run in my meta anymore, but not because of the cost. He almost single handedly changed every artifact destruction into exiling/tuck. My meta is extremely hateful on indestructibles now, because it's worth the cost to include them into the removals. Wrath of God -> Hallowed Burial; into the core and return to dust, black sun's zenith etc.
The problem with the darksteel gargoyle was this: Not that many fliers also have trample. He chumps dragons like a pro. Paired with the sentinel, and suddenly you can even stop primeval titans easily. People don't really like attacking someone if it's not going to do much. Even simply reducing trample damage by 3 may influence someone to attack somewhere where the damage is better spent. Add in free shots after a wrath, and you have a solid creature.
The new doll looks fantastic for this role. Doesn't stop trample as well, but it's a great deterrent: people don't want to lose their creatures.
Ok I will put the Gargoyle on the wishlist at the least and see if I cant make room for it.
I also thought it would be fun to run Cremate in the case I could run Radiate with it to own all the graveyards and draw a card for every one of them lol. But maybe that is a pipe dream. (I realized that radiate specifies that the instant or sorcery needs to target a permanent or player.)
Also I would like to include Darksteel Ingot due to its fixing / ramping /difficulty to remove.
EDIT: Ok I think mabe I can manage to cut Mulldrifter for the Gargoyle. That keeps me from upping the creature count and I have to think that continuous dissuasive blocker will make up for 2 cards in the long run. I could be wrong but I figure I will give it a test.
EDIT 2: I cut Electrolyze for Stroke of Genius due to needing a big instant speed draw x effect. I just dont think that the 2 damage would do much and I keep having these crazy Radiate pipe dreams where there will be like 50 tokens for me to shock and draw off of lol. Ehhhh probably need to stop doing that. I also considered this slot going to either Brainstorm or Preordain but I will save that potential for later if need be.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Did your suggestion of Radiate on my thread propel yet another new deck idea?
Anyway, the deck is looking pretty good, I've always found Grixis to be a very strong combination of colours for control.
I know I always suggest Gamble, but I am telling you, give it a test run. It's a very strong tutor and the random discard is often not a big deal.
Also, I see your slowly becoming a fan of the Darksteel.
Lol well actually I was sort of fumbling over this decklist most of the morning when I thought about some fun Radiate combos I remembered from way back. Then my next thought was oooooo radiate in Riku and I ran to your thread lol.
I know you and your Gamble lol. The big problem is that I don't really know what I would go get with gamble. I feel like getting a direct combo piece with it is sort of risky so I feel like I should go get a tutor with it in case it hits the card I choose.... ehhhhh I don't know...
As for the darksteel... ya I think it was when I ran it in Toshiro Umezawa deck that I really got sold on them. I had No Mercy in play + Darksteel Sentinel + Mystifying Maze and like nobody wanted to swing at me it was great. The sentinel has really grown on me especially in a deck with lots of instant speed options due to it doesnt feel like it soaks your whole damn turn as much. I dont want to go completely crazy on them but in a creature light list they have been fantastic in my experience. People just dont like using Swords to Plowshares on a defensive creature as inevitably you will probably wish you had it when something scary comes along.
EDIT: I sort of think I might want to consider 1 more wrath effect as well. I was sort of considering Decree of Pain due to its huge card draw option plus the fact that it can be utilized at instant speed with a cycle to kill a token army. Plus even when it does get cycled it doesn't kill my darksteel guys so thats a plus.
EDIT 2:Darksteel Ingot is coming in for Tezzeret. I sort of realized that tezzeret might just slow me down if I run him instead of a mana stone. There is the chance that I use him to go get 2 mana stones but I would rather just run another good stone that comes down faster and the Ingot is fairly reliable all around so I will run that.
I was kicking arround the idea of finally going through with this decklist...
I sort of want to increase some of the toolboxing and decrease the amount of combo to only 1-2 combos though. I like cards that are good outside of the combos as well so keeping that in mind...
I want a deck though that can function without comboing out infinitely every game so I like the idea of this list. There are good things it has going for it that I do like.
I added Keldon Firebombers to control the amount of land in play for one. I don't want to go all out mass LD but there have been more and more games of late where people are just going stupid on their manabases.
I also added Night of Souls' Betrayal as some toolboxing to hate on the token based decks in my meta.
Stranglehold is to keep opposing tutor decks at bay.
I think I will have to kick things about for a bit to figure out if I will go through with it or not but I like the idea of a thrax toolboxing psudo control / combo list.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Just a small bump. I moved some things around in the list... I sort of feel bad for still having the primary wincon in this deck be combo based however I just don't see much of a way around it in these colors. I do like the combos I have selected as I feel like they are a bit more fun than the usual Kiki bs combo.
I cut a few of the expensive creatures and added a little more of a ramp package. I might need to go a little further on the ramp package yet but Thrax is my plan B in this deck so it doesn't need to be a totally huge package I don't think...
EDIT: also since I originally posted this list a while back I obtained an Underground Sea and a Volcanic Island (Both in trades Whoooo) so I need to add those sexy lands to my list.
I hadn't been running this list however I am thinking I might need to assemble it. I am really not utilizing a lot of my red and black control stuff currently. It would be a nice list to keep together for the random times I want to just tell my meta to screw off / whatev.
EDIT 2: small swap, Thirst for Knowledge -> Forbidden Alchemy I like that Alchemy digs deeper and has flashback. When it comes to a combo deck I think card selection is a little better than card advantage. I also don't have that many artifacts that I think Thirst for Knowledge would really draw me much.
Another update, I traded a Sword of War and Peace + Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite +$10.00 cash and turned them into a Badlands + Scrubland both rather beat up but meh they are original duals. That puts my original dual count to 7 now and it allows me to drop the third original dual into this deck (It sort of sucks though as I no longer have a set of War and Peace for my standard needs... Ohhh well I put EDH over standard generally speaking.)
So I worked my landbase over a little... I was a bit torn but I removed the Maze of Ith from my list due to not tapping for mana until Urborg hits play. I figure a singletone Maze effect should hopefully pan out. I am running sort of a creature light deck though so I could be wrong but for now I am trying without it.
Other small changes:
Night of Souls' Betrayal -> Memory Plunder I have this issue where Night will hurt token decks but I dont know how many decks other than that will be hurt by it. I like how Memory Plunder might give me a lot of potential options to utilize it with. I can ramp in the early game, I can wrath, I can Insurrection after an opposing Insurrection resolves or whatever. I hope this is an increase in versatility.
Phantasmal Image -> Knowledge Exploitation In a creature light deck having a second clone is not as important as other things. I am keeping a single clone but I have been having so much luck with Knowledge Exploitation that I would like to include it for another nice potential win / wrath / whatever. Having an Austere Command in grixis sounds just gravy.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Another update, I traded a Sword of War and Peace + Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite +$10.00 cash and turned them into a Badlands + Scrubland both rather beat up but meh they are original duals. That puts my original dual count to 7 now and it allows me to drop the third original dual into this deck (It sort of sucks though as I no longer have a set of War and Peace for my standard needs... Ohhh well I put EDH over standard generally speaking.)
Grats on the trades :). Now's probably the time to get rid of SoWaP anyhow, as I can't imagine that it'll climb any higher, or that it'll stay this price for long. I sold one that I pulled pretty soon after the NPH release, when it's price was like $20 :mad:. Bugger.
Anywho, I've been referencing this list for ideas, particularly in the card draw and counterspells department. Thraximundar is one of the first generals I ever wanted to build a deck for, but I haven't been able to find a really good resource out there to help me arrive at a decklist I'd be happy enough with to actually build.
Instead of combo/control list like you've been working on, though, I've been trying to work towards a more "attrition-oriented" build, that focuses on mass discard, mass creature removal, and mass land destruction, while using card draw, graveyard recursion, and mana rocks to allow me to outlast my opponents and then cast Thrax to beat face. I also really want it to be creature-less, if it ends up being possible, which I think it will.
Grats on the trades :). Now's probably the time to get rid of SoWaP anyhow, as I can't imagine that it'll climb any higher, or that it'll stay this price for long. I sold one that I pulled pretty soon after the NPH release, when it's price was like $20 :mad:. Bugger.
Anywho, I've been referencing this list for ideas, particularly in the card draw and counterspells department. Thraximundar is one of the first generals I ever wanted to build a deck for, but I haven't been able to find a really good resource out there to help me arrive at a decklist I'd be happy enough with to actually build.
Instead of combo/control list like you've been working on, though, I've been trying to work towards a more "attrition-oriented" build, that focuses on mass discard, mass creature removal, and mass land destruction, while using card draw, graveyard recursion, and mana rocks to allow me to outlast my opponents and then cast Thrax to beat face. I also really want it to be creature-less, if it ends up being possible, which I think it will.
Thanks, it has actually been a while since I played thrax (probably close to a year now...) this list hasn't actually seen any playtesting yet though so much as just my own theorycrafting however I did start putting the list together yesterday. I plan on getting some playing in here soon.
As far as going sort of attrition based for grixus... that leaves sort of just stax style of build which in my own personal opinion is just as dirty as comboing out. I like the combos that I chose because they are all cool cards and honestly it doesnt feel as lame as loosing to kiki which I feel like is entirely over done. Also most all of the combo cards can be utilized decently for other actions in the deck. I really hate combo pieces that are dead cards on their own. Something like Turnabout can be used to stall for a turn if need be. Reiterate can be used to copy something important or fight an opposing counter if need be.
Honestly I think I probably do need to up my own counterspell count by another 1-2 as this is going to be sort of my combo out deck that I plan on playing against some other such decks which a few other people are packing.
EDIT: also I had a lot of problems relying on thrax as my primary wincon last I tried. Mana Stones are a bit vulnerable and I can remeber several times where an Austere Command like completely took me out when I was focusing on using thrax a lot.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
As far as going sort of attrition based for grixus... that leaves sort of just stax style of build which in my own personal opinion is just as dirty as comboing out.
EDIT: also I had a lot of problems relying on Thrax as my primary wincon last I tried. Mana Stones are a bit vulnerable and I can remeber several times where an Austere Command like completely took me out when I was focusing on using thrax a lot.
I don't mind being dirty :mad1:, and my playgroup generally adopts the philosophy that goes something like: "You can build whatever kind of deck you want, and the rest of us will just adapt to try to absolutely wreck it if it bothers us that much." I just don't particularly enjoy combos, while I enjoy nothing more than rendering everyone else unable to play ... well, anything ... while I laugh the night away.
I've been working off of BaconoftheArk's decklist, but as I say in my thread, I really can't tell whether that deck is built purely to troll (a la Jokulhaups, Obliterate, etc.), or whether it trolls while still being pretty effective. The latter appeals to me.
I see your point about the vulnerability of mana stones, etc., but I'd like to think that by keeping my counters-count really high (currently 10 and going up) and my avg. cmc pretty low (currently 2.69 and going down), I could thwart all the most threatening spells and survive off of way less mana than my opponents.
We just sort of get rolling, I have a nice hand as I hit a Phyrexian Arena on turn 3, Solemn Simulacrum on turn 4, and just start sort of rolling around playing some control from there. We sort of sit there wrathing each other which is all fun and games.
I end up just wanting to end this game so I go infinite mana off of Turnabout + Reiterate which I tutored up then Bounce all of my opponents permanents with Clutch of the Undercity which actually kills like 2 of them for the most part. I slam Thrax and start mopping things up.
Game ends quickly. It didn't look like anyone was really going to accomplish anything anytime soon if I hadn't don't it.
Game 2: well I have some decent opponents for this game however I am the only one running combo. Opponents are: Momir Vig, Simic Visionary (A newer list not yet running combo but probably soon to put it in.), Hazezon Tamar, and Karador, Ghost Chieftain
The game gets off to an alright start... I am somehow super swamp heavy with 3 swamps and a Watery Grave as my starting land... I manage myself a turn 4 Bribery into a Primeval Titan which helps finish my fixing. Unfortunately that titan gets Oblationed on me giving Vig more cards...
We end up going back and forth with titans for some time. I manage a nice 6 card draw Decree of Pain which was really nice. I end up setting up a combo in hand but not being able to do it as it is Radiate + Clutch of the Undercity and Hazazon is having a terrible game where he is stuck at like 6 or less permanents for most of the game...
I keep stalling by using Bolas Planeswalker + Time Warping twice in a row to take 3 back to back turns while playing him the first one which got me tons of fun things but unfortunately there were 2 Homeward Paths in play so I had to play sort of diplomatic about it. Still I blew up a lot of Karador's goodies.
Finally out of nowhere Hazezon has this stupid turn where he somehow manages to play a Primeval Titan + Kiki Jiki + activate Kiki on the titan with a Doubling Season in play which ramped him like 8 lands... At this point I just go ahead and end it using Clutch of the Undercity + Radiate as Vig is tapped out whoooo. I probably could have executed this a little earlier but Hazazon was sort of boarderline on dying before this. He had a good amount of mana but he was using a lot of bounce lands and such to recieve twice the mana from them... I also wanted to wait on Vig to tap out so it was a great opportunity to do it.
Decently good games all in all. I don't think people were really ready for me to combo out with the deck though but whatever. They were fun games. For being a combo deck I felt that I still interacted and had a fun time playing the deck. I dont know if my opponents had nearly as much fun with me just wrecking games but meh whatever.
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Some small changes:
Keldon Firebombers -> Izzet Chronarch Unfortunately the deck is sort of designed to work off of big mana. I am going to cut him and give myself another chump blocker who recurs good spells for me.
Rakdos Signet -> Mind Stone I have a good manabase so I thought I would swap to a stone that I can blow for a card in a wrath. It shouldnt be a big change by any means but I think it is one I can manage.
EDIT: moving forward it was obvious to me that I would like another 2ish counterspells. I tutored up Pact of Negation sort of a lot in these games. I think Muddle the Mixture and Arcane Denial might be making an appearance in the future if I can find a spot for them. Tolaria West also seems like a strong candidate for addition due to how much I like having pact in hand in here.
I'm contemplating making room for the combos you run here in my Thraximundar deck, as well. A friend of mine who's been playing magic for 10+ years (mostly legacy) took a look at my decklist and said, "Yeah, don't build this deck." Then he took a look at your decklist and said, "See, now this deck is built to win."
Thanks for posting game results. I'll be interested to see how your deck plays out, and what observations and subsequent changes you make.
I'm contemplating making room for the combos you run here in my Thraximundar deck, as well. A friend of mine who's been playing magic for 10+ years (mostly legacy) took a look at my decklist and said, "Yeah, don't build this deck." Then he took a look at your decklist and said, "See, now this deck is built to win."
Thanks for posting game results. I'll be interested to see how your deck plays out, and what observations and subsequent changes you make.
Hey no problem. I am sort of new to playing it myself but I like the concepts I have picked. I am not new to thrax so it helps as well. I purposely tried to focus the wincons of this deck to utilize minimum amounts of permenants so that the combos will be as hard to counter as possible. It isnt impossible to stop some of the combos based upon how you execute them based upon what effects you might have other than counters but it can be hard depending upon what setup I have.
I still need to find a way to incorporate a few more counters I think as I feel like I would like at least 2x more in my list. Let me know how your list runs as I still need a lot of testing with my own list and I am guessing some of my meta might get sick of it lol.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I still need to find a way to incorporate a few more counters I think as I feel like I would like at least 2x more in my list. Let me know how your list runs as I still need a lot of testing with my own list and I am guessing some of my meta might get sick of it lol.
Yeah. I haven't run my list with my playgroup yet, but I've had all of them look over it to give me suggestions. Usually they just sigh, say something about how unfun Smokestack and similar effects are, and say that I won't enjoy playing this deck for very long, everyone at the table will hate it out, everyone will be miserable, yada yada yada.
In any case, I'm beginning to think that a few good combos never hurt any deck. Well that's not exactly true; I suppose if they interfere with/disrupt/render inconsistent the main purpose of the deck they shouldn't be run. But, for a good portion of decks, having a way to combo out just in case the game isn't going anywhere, or various other reasons, seems good.
How have you been enjoying this deck thus far? Do you find Thraximundar a fun general and/or Grixis a fun color combination to run?
1 Thraximundar
CREATURES (13)
1 Gilded Drake
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Izzet Chronarch
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Darksteel Sentinel
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
ARTIFACT (12)
1 Mana Vault
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Dimir Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Mind Stone
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
ENCHANTMENT (4)
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Rhystic Study
1 Stranglehold
1 Pact of Negation
1 Pongify
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Starstorm
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Capsize
1 Chaos Warp
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Hinder
1 Reiterate
1 Spell Crumple
1 Clutch of the Undercity
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Memory Plunder
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Turnabout
1 Radiate
SORCERY (12)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Damnation
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Syphon Mind
1 Bribery
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Time Warp
1 Knowledge Exploitation
1 Decree of Pain
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
LAND (40)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Graven Cairns
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Flooded Strand
7 Island
1 Kher Keep
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Mountain
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stripmine
1 Sunken Ruins
5 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
1 Watery Grave
GAMEPLAN:
Plan A: Combo out utilizing control to slow opponents down and thrax to eat up creatures / stall / use up opponents resources.
Plan B: Swing at people with Thrax until they die.
When considering what I wanted to do I had to keep in mind the amount of mana that thrax costs. I tried running thrax as my primary wincon way back when I had thrax put together last. My issues with this is that mana stones are sort of fragile and so if I rely on having a ton of them in play I will get blown up. Due to this I cut back on my mana stones and am relying less on thrax as a wincon so much as a control mechinism that can beat people up.
A few of the combos:
Clutch of the Undercity + Radiate lol I know its mean but funny. I believe that I get to control how the copies go on the stack so I can put all of my bounces last so I can kill my opponents first before dying myself.
Turnabout + Reiterate + Capsize infinite mana then bounce.
Turnabout + Reiterate + Time Warp infinite mana then infinite turns.
WISH LIST:
1 Grixis Charm
1 Comet Storm
1 Go for the Throat
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[Modern] Allies
The overall cost of copying a spell is higher, but with him out you only need to leave 1UU up rather than 6 to buyback reiterate. I am a very big fan of being able to defer the cost to a later turn.
I have a strong tendency to stick as many effects onto creatures as possible, so they can serve multiple roles. Sometimes you'd rather have more resilience, but I am a fan of graveborn muse and bloodgift demon over phyrexian arena. I also tend to run more equipment though.
I also notice that you took out a strong control element in gravepact effects. Those can keep the board down for you, open up attack paths, and boost thrax.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
The big problem there is my meta is sort of creature removal heavy and counterspell light so there is a matter of the fact that Reiterate is harder to stop in my meta.
Overall you are correct that the Quanar is better from a mana perspective but I think he has a higher chance of being killed than I have for someone to interfere with an all instant speed deal. I think I am ok with it being a bit slower and having it harder to interfere with.
I might also swap Starstorm to be Comet Storm as another wincon... If I do that I should probably invest in picking up at least one more wrath / bounce effect.
I was also wondering if I might need a few more mana stones... I need to get up to mana quickly and be able to output quite a bit of mana.
EDIT: I am pulling Nezumi Graverobber for Capsize. That should fix one card I was looking to pick up. I figure I still have 2 other graveyard hosers in the list and that should be fine.
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[Modern] Allies
Flowstone is rather more mana intensive, but can be used offensively as well. Crank x=5 and attack with an 11/1 Thraxman. (who then probably becomes 12/2). Add a psychotic Fury for good effect.
Bane is a personal favorite, due to the ability to carry a sword. Smack someone with a sworded morph enough, and they'll do something drastic, and then he can more than pay for himself. In some situations he can even stick around.
It seems in a removal heavy meta, you may actually prefer the Arena over the creatures I listed for survivability reasons. Also, that would probably lower the value of gravepact too.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Also since you're running black and red I think you could improve on the removal a little bit. Pongify could go for Terminate or Go for the Throat and Electrolyze could be a lot of different thinks, maybe Crosis's Charm or Grixis Charm? Both pretty flexible cards.
Other than that it looks really good. If Thrax is going to play a bigger role you're probably going to need more mana rocks but they aren't as important if you're focusing on the combos.
As for the wrath options... I guess indestructable guys havent really been that big of a deal for me. I think I might actually go the route of Blasphemous Act for another wrath effect if I can find room for it. I have run bane of the living in the past and found it too slow to use. Flowstone Slide just feels like it would end up costing tons of mana to utilize as well.
Also when I first went to make this list I intended it to be an agro deck but then I realized that my creature count kept shrinking with every alter I made and my spells kept going up. Finally I needed to ditch a lot of the creature support and go more towards spell support. Believe me I really wanted those swords to make it in the list but I think I have too many other things I want to be doing and I have a lot less emphasis on my creatures in here.
Also I suppose I could swap to Pestermite I dont think its a big deal either way. The ability to block flying voltron commanders is fairly important.
EDIT: As for the spot removal.... I just dont know how much I like either of the charms in grixis. I guess out of the two of them I like Grixis Charm a bit more but Pongify has the upside of being so damn cheap to cast.
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[Modern] Allies
I think that would be a good idea. If you can reduce the creature count enough you can run a lot of sweepers and the red ones work very well for Repercussion. I imagine you can just kill the token decks outright with Repercussion but it looks too dangerous in your current configuration. Blasphemous Act + Repercussion is nasty.
I agree that keeping the creature curve down is probably a good idea in here. I do like having occasional blockers though and they are good value engines. I kept the big fatties down as best as I could and I trimmed it back from like 25 originally.
While I think Repercussion + Blasphemous Act is cute I feel like it is a bit gimicky in the fact that it will only work against certain type of decks. If I am going to tutor for combo pieces I want them to work regardless of the deck I am facing.
I might end up cutting some of the creatures for more sweepers though... Perhaps I should look into which sweepers I want in here.
EDIT: I was thinking of taking Necromancy out for Blasphemous Act. While rez is good and all it is very situational and more often in a creature light list I will probably need an answer to my opponents multiple creatures.
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[Modern] Allies
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Stuffy Doll is a personal favorite for this. Sometimes he even encourages attackers.
I have the Sentinel already. I like him more than the gargoyle as he can be a surprise and keep my options open. Occasionally his vigilance is useful as well to poke at planeswalkers. Plus he is tutorable off of Mystical Teachings.
I dont know if I like the Gargoyle due to the lack of flash even if it can block flying. Somehow the lack of flash just makes it feel so much clunkier.
Hummm that could be fun with the Blasphemous Act. Plus it costs 2 less than the Gargoyle. Mayhaps I will give him a shot. The new doll that flips a coin to kill creatures could be fun as well.
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[Modern] Allies
Wrath of God -> Hallowed Burial; into the core and return to dust, black sun's zenith etc.
The problem with the darksteel gargoyle was this: Not that many fliers also have trample. He chumps dragons like a pro. Paired with the sentinel, and suddenly you can even stop primeval titans easily. People don't really like attacking someone if it's not going to do much. Even simply reducing trample damage by 3 may influence someone to attack somewhere where the damage is better spent. Add in free shots after a wrath, and you have a solid creature.
The new doll looks fantastic for this role. Doesn't stop trample as well, but it's a great deterrent: people don't want to lose their creatures.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I also thought it would be fun to run Cremate in the case I could run Radiate with it to own all the graveyards and draw a card for every one of them lol. But maybe that is a pipe dream.(I realized that radiate specifies that the instant or sorcery needs to target a permanent or player.)Also I would like to include Darksteel Ingot due to its fixing / ramping /difficulty to remove.
EDIT: Ok I think mabe I can manage to cut Mulldrifter for the Gargoyle. That keeps me from upping the creature count and I have to think that continuous dissuasive blocker will make up for 2 cards in the long run. I could be wrong but I figure I will give it a test.
EDIT 2: I cut Electrolyze for Stroke of Genius due to needing a big instant speed draw x effect. I just dont think that the 2 damage would do much and I keep having these crazy Radiate pipe dreams where there will be like 50 tokens for me to shock and draw off of lol. Ehhhh probably need to stop doing that. I also considered this slot going to either Brainstorm or Preordain but I will save that potential for later if need be.
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[Modern] Allies
Anyway, the deck is looking pretty good, I've always found Grixis to be a very strong combination of colours for control.
I know I always suggest Gamble, but I am telling you, give it a test run. It's a very strong tutor and the random discard is often not a big deal.
Also, I see your slowly becoming a fan of the Darksteel.
Lol well actually I was sort of fumbling over this decklist most of the morning when I thought about some fun Radiate combos I remembered from way back. Then my next thought was oooooo radiate in Riku and I ran to your thread lol.
I know you and your Gamble lol. The big problem is that I don't really know what I would go get with gamble. I feel like getting a direct combo piece with it is sort of risky so I feel like I should go get a tutor with it in case it hits the card I choose.... ehhhhh I don't know...
As for the darksteel... ya I think it was when I ran it in Toshiro Umezawa deck that I really got sold on them. I had No Mercy in play + Darksteel Sentinel + Mystifying Maze and like nobody wanted to swing at me it was great. The sentinel has really grown on me especially in a deck with lots of instant speed options due to it doesnt feel like it soaks your whole damn turn as much. I dont want to go completely crazy on them but in a creature light list they have been fantastic in my experience. People just dont like using Swords to Plowshares on a defensive creature as inevitably you will probably wish you had it when something scary comes along.
EDIT: I sort of think I might want to consider 1 more wrath effect as well. I was sort of considering Decree of Pain due to its huge card draw option plus the fact that it can be utilized at instant speed with a cycle to kill a token army. Plus even when it does get cycled it doesn't kill my darksteel guys so thats a plus.
EDIT 2: Darksteel Ingot is coming in for Tezzeret. I sort of realized that tezzeret might just slow me down if I run him instead of a mana stone. There is the chance that I use him to go get 2 mana stones but I would rather just run another good stone that comes down faster and the Ingot is fairly reliable all around so I will run that.
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[Modern] Allies
I sort of want to increase some of the toolboxing and decrease the amount of combo to only 1-2 combos though. I like cards that are good outside of the combos as well so keeping that in mind...
I want a deck though that can function without comboing out infinitely every game so I like the idea of this list. There are good things it has going for it that I do like.
I added Keldon Firebombers to control the amount of land in play for one. I don't want to go all out mass LD but there have been more and more games of late where people are just going stupid on their manabases.
I also added Night of Souls' Betrayal as some toolboxing to hate on the token based decks in my meta.
Stranglehold is to keep opposing tutor decks at bay.
I think I will have to kick things about for a bit to figure out if I will go through with it or not but I like the idea of a thrax toolboxing psudo control / combo list.
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[Modern] Allies
I cut a few of the expensive creatures and added a little more of a ramp package. I might need to go a little further on the ramp package yet but Thrax is my plan B in this deck so it doesn't need to be a totally huge package I don't think...
EDIT: also since I originally posted this list a while back I obtained an Underground Sea and a Volcanic Island (Both in trades Whoooo) so I need to add those sexy lands to my list.
I hadn't been running this list however I am thinking I might need to assemble it. I am really not utilizing a lot of my red and black control stuff currently. It would be a nice list to keep together for the random times I want to just tell my meta to screw off / whatev.
EDIT 2: small swap, Thirst for Knowledge -> Forbidden Alchemy I like that Alchemy digs deeper and has flashback. When it comes to a combo deck I think card selection is a little better than card advantage. I also don't have that many artifacts that I think Thirst for Knowledge would really draw me much.
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[Modern] Allies
So I worked my landbase over a little... I was a bit torn but I removed the Maze of Ith from my list due to not tapping for mana until Urborg hits play. I figure a singletone Maze effect should hopefully pan out. I am running sort of a creature light deck though so I could be wrong but for now I am trying without it.
Other small changes:
Night of Souls' Betrayal -> Memory Plunder I have this issue where Night will hurt token decks but I dont know how many decks other than that will be hurt by it. I like how Memory Plunder might give me a lot of potential options to utilize it with. I can ramp in the early game, I can wrath, I can Insurrection after an opposing Insurrection resolves or whatever. I hope this is an increase in versatility.
Phantasmal Image -> Knowledge Exploitation In a creature light deck having a second clone is not as important as other things. I am keeping a single clone but I have been having so much luck with Knowledge Exploitation that I would like to include it for another nice potential win / wrath / whatever. Having an Austere Command in grixis sounds just gravy.
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[Modern] Allies
Grats on the trades :). Now's probably the time to get rid of SoWaP anyhow, as I can't imagine that it'll climb any higher, or that it'll stay this price for long. I sold one that I pulled pretty soon after the NPH release, when it's price was like $20 :mad:. Bugger.
Anywho, I've been referencing this list for ideas, particularly in the card draw and counterspells department. Thraximundar is one of the first generals I ever wanted to build a deck for, but I haven't been able to find a really good resource out there to help me arrive at a decklist I'd be happy enough with to actually build.
Instead of combo/control list like you've been working on, though, I've been trying to work towards a more "attrition-oriented" build, that focuses on mass discard, mass creature removal, and mass land destruction, while using card draw, graveyard recursion, and mana rocks to allow me to outlast my opponents and then cast Thrax to beat face. I also really want it to be creature-less, if it ends up being possible, which I think it will.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Thanks, it has actually been a while since I played thrax (probably close to a year now...) this list hasn't actually seen any playtesting yet though so much as just my own theorycrafting however I did start putting the list together yesterday. I plan on getting some playing in here soon.
As far as going sort of attrition based for grixus... that leaves sort of just stax style of build which in my own personal opinion is just as dirty as comboing out. I like the combos that I chose because they are all cool cards and honestly it doesnt feel as lame as loosing to kiki which I feel like is entirely over done. Also most all of the combo cards can be utilized decently for other actions in the deck. I really hate combo pieces that are dead cards on their own. Something like Turnabout can be used to stall for a turn if need be. Reiterate can be used to copy something important or fight an opposing counter if need be.
Honestly I think I probably do need to up my own counterspell count by another 1-2 as this is going to be sort of my combo out deck that I plan on playing against some other such decks which a few other people are packing.
EDIT: also I had a lot of problems relying on thrax as my primary wincon last I tried. Mana Stones are a bit vulnerable and I can remeber several times where an Austere Command like completely took me out when I was focusing on using thrax a lot.
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[Modern] Allies
I don't mind being dirty :mad1:, and my playgroup generally adopts the philosophy that goes something like: "You can build whatever kind of deck you want, and the rest of us will just adapt to try to absolutely wreck it if it bothers us that much." I just don't particularly enjoy combos, while I enjoy nothing more than rendering everyone else unable to play ... well, anything ... while I laugh the night away.
I've been working off of BaconoftheArk's decklist, but as I say in my thread, I really can't tell whether that deck is built purely to troll (a la Jokulhaups, Obliterate, etc.), or whether it trolls while still being pretty effective. The latter appeals to me.
I see your point about the vulnerability of mana stones, etc., but I'd like to think that by keeping my counters-count really high (currently 10 and going up) and my avg. cmc pretty low (currently 2.69 and going down), I could thwart all the most threatening spells and survive off of way less mana than my opponents.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Game 1: Playing a 5 player game. I felt a bit bad using this deck as I was playing against a table of all scrubs. My opposition was something like: Sliver Overlord, Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, Kemba, Kha Regent, and Merieke Ri Berit.
We just sort of get rolling, I have a nice hand as I hit a Phyrexian Arena on turn 3, Solemn Simulacrum on turn 4, and just start sort of rolling around playing some control from there. We sort of sit there wrathing each other which is all fun and games.
I end up just wanting to end this game so I go infinite mana off of Turnabout + Reiterate which I tutored up then Bounce all of my opponents permanents with Clutch of the Undercity which actually kills like 2 of them for the most part. I slam Thrax and start mopping things up.
Game ends quickly. It didn't look like anyone was really going to accomplish anything anytime soon if I hadn't don't it.
Game 2: well I have some decent opponents for this game however I am the only one running combo. Opponents are: Momir Vig, Simic Visionary (A newer list not yet running combo but probably soon to put it in.), Hazezon Tamar, and Karador, Ghost Chieftain
The game gets off to an alright start... I am somehow super swamp heavy with 3 swamps and a Watery Grave as my starting land... I manage myself a turn 4 Bribery into a Primeval Titan which helps finish my fixing. Unfortunately that titan gets Oblationed on me giving Vig more cards...
We end up going back and forth with titans for some time. I manage a nice 6 card draw Decree of Pain which was really nice. I end up setting up a combo in hand but not being able to do it as it is Radiate + Clutch of the Undercity and Hazazon is having a terrible game where he is stuck at like 6 or less permanents for most of the game...
I keep stalling by using Bolas Planeswalker + Time Warping twice in a row to take 3 back to back turns while playing him the first one which got me tons of fun things but unfortunately there were 2 Homeward Paths in play so I had to play sort of diplomatic about it. Still I blew up a lot of Karador's goodies.
Finally out of nowhere Hazezon has this stupid turn where he somehow manages to play a Primeval Titan + Kiki Jiki + activate Kiki on the titan with a Doubling Season in play which ramped him like 8 lands... At this point I just go ahead and end it using Clutch of the Undercity + Radiate as Vig is tapped out whoooo. I probably could have executed this a little earlier but Hazazon was sort of boarderline on dying before this. He had a good amount of mana but he was using a lot of bounce lands and such to recieve twice the mana from them... I also wanted to wait on Vig to tap out so it was a great opportunity to do it.
Decently good games all in all. I don't think people were really ready for me to combo out with the deck though but whatever. They were fun games. For being a combo deck I felt that I still interacted and had a fun time playing the deck. I dont know if my opponents had nearly as much fun with me just wrecking games but meh whatever.
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Some small changes:
Keldon Firebombers -> Izzet Chronarch Unfortunately the deck is sort of designed to work off of big mana. I am going to cut him and give myself another chump blocker who recurs good spells for me.
Rakdos Signet -> Mind Stone I have a good manabase so I thought I would swap to a stone that I can blow for a card in a wrath. It shouldnt be a big change by any means but I think it is one I can manage.
EDIT: moving forward it was obvious to me that I would like another 2ish counterspells. I tutored up Pact of Negation sort of a lot in these games. I think Muddle the Mixture and Arcane Denial might be making an appearance in the future if I can find a spot for them. Tolaria West also seems like a strong candidate for addition due to how much I like having pact in hand in here.
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[Modern] Allies
Thanks for posting game results. I'll be interested to see how your deck plays out, and what observations and subsequent changes you make.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Hey no problem. I am sort of new to playing it myself but I like the concepts I have picked. I am not new to thrax so it helps as well. I purposely tried to focus the wincons of this deck to utilize minimum amounts of permenants so that the combos will be as hard to counter as possible. It isnt impossible to stop some of the combos based upon how you execute them based upon what effects you might have other than counters but it can be hard depending upon what setup I have.
I still need to find a way to incorporate a few more counters I think as I feel like I would like at least 2x more in my list. Let me know how your list runs as I still need a lot of testing with my own list and I am guessing some of my meta might get sick of it lol.
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[Modern] Allies
Yeah. I haven't run my list with my playgroup yet, but I've had all of them look over it to give me suggestions. Usually they just sigh, say something about how unfun Smokestack and similar effects are, and say that I won't enjoy playing this deck for very long, everyone at the table will hate it out, everyone will be miserable, yada yada yada.
In any case, I'm beginning to think that a few good combos never hurt any deck. Well that's not exactly true; I suppose if they interfere with/disrupt/render inconsistent the main purpose of the deck they shouldn't be run. But, for a good portion of decks, having a way to combo out just in case the game isn't going anywhere, or various other reasons, seems good.
How have you been enjoying this deck thus far? Do you find Thraximundar a fun general and/or Grixis a fun color combination to run?
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)