I personally think that this card is absolutley nuts in the right deck. Especially against decks like Zoo that Basically start at 14 due to the number of fetches and shocks that they run. For double black its a huge life swing and in my current deck is often basically a hard counter if my opponent is smart enough to stay out of bolt range.
Here's the BR control list that I'm testing for Worlds. I think its match up against zoo is better than a lot of higher teir decks out there, and Dash hopes just might be what It's missing.
I personally think that this card is absolutley nuts in the right deck. Especially against decks like Zoo that Basically start at 14 due to the number of fetches and shocks that they run. For double black its a huge life swing and in my current deck is often basically a hard counter if my opponent is smart enough to stay out of bolt range.
Here's the BR control list that I'm testing for Worlds. I think its match up against zoo is better than a lot of higher teir decks out there, and Dash hopes just might be what It's missing.
Most cards that gives your opponent such a choice are usually bad.
You most likely won't get the effect that you want when you want it.
You're better of playing some more burn spells than Dash hopes.
Dash hopes will never be or even feel like a hard counter, they'll always take 4 if the card they're playing is changing the tide of the match.
It's 5 for what it matters. I would argue that unless they're playing something huge them losing a quarter of their life for double black seems pretty good. People argue that Browbeat is bad because it never "does what you want". I argue that it always does what you want. Either you punch your opponent for 5 or you draw an average of two more burn spells.
I think its a little different for Dash Hopes but I dare you to try and find a more efficient burn spell than 5 for 2 in modern. My main reasoning behind this is meta choice. IE Zoo. They cast BBE and Cascade into a Knight of the Reliquary. I Dash Hopes the Knight. This is most likely at least turn 3 So they've probably fetched and shocked themselves for at least 3. They pay the Five. Now they're at 12. End turn I Bolt the Knight.
That's two cards for 5 Life and a Powerful creature. Alternatively they let the knight get countered and i bolt the BBE. Either way seems good to me. I don't think that that is a magical Christmas land example either as it is a pretty standard line of play for a lot of zoo builds.
I won't argue however that this doesn't need testing. It might turn out to be not good enough to make the cut, but I don't think its so unpromising that it deserves to be thrown out on principle.
It's 5 for what it matters. I would argue that unless they're playing something huge them losing a quarter of their life for double black seems pretty good. People argue that Browbeat is bad because it never "does what you want". I argue that it always does what you want. Either you punch your opponent for 5 or you draw an average of two more burn spells.
I think its a little different for Dash Hopes but I dare you to try and find a more efficient burn spell than 5 for 2 in modern. My main reasoning behind this is meta choice. IE Zoo. They cast BBE and Cascade into a Knight of the Reliquary. I Dash Hopes the Knight. This is most likely at least turn 3 So they've probably fetched and shocked themselves for at least 3. They pay the Five. Now they're at 12. End turn I Bolt the Knight.
That's two cards for 5 Life and a Powerful creature. Alternatively they let the knight get countered and i bolt the BBE. Either way seems good to me. I don't think that that is a magical Christmas land example either as it is a pretty standard line of play for a lot of zoo builds.
I won't argue however that this doesn't need testing. It might turn out to be not good enough to make the cut, but I don't think its so unpromising that it deserves to be thrown out on principle.
Zoo doesn't play BBE that often, but Jund does.
You're right though when you're talking about Zoo giving away a lot of life due to it's manabase but they also pack 4 Lightning Helix.
I don't really see how you're dealing with Zoo when all your critters are only slightly better than Wild Nacatl. Jagged poppet is horrible against any opposing burn spell, Faceless butcher is too slow and won't stick, Nyxathid is a strictly worse creature than goyf and so on.
How can you be 1 for 1ing Zoo when their whole deck is packing better cards? Your exemple is also a bit biased, how often will you see a KoTR in bolt range? With all the fetches it's rarely less than 4 thoughness, otherwise it would be dumb to drop it against any red deck.
In conclusion Dash hopes isn't much the problem here.You should be more worried about your whole list.
I seriously didn't mean to be rude but your 75's aren't viable.
No your not being rude and you make some good points. I'm not going to concede that the deck is bad however (I don't expect to top eight with it in any major tourny though). It's just another one of those things that can't really be judged on a purely hypothetical basis imo. The deck started out as a sort of litmus test for my friends gauntlet, more of a "can your deck deal with this much disruption" thing than a serious tournament deck. I have tested a lot against Zoo and while it isnt easy (not by a long shot) I don't find myself getting roflstomped every game either. I would say that its a 40-60 matchup in their favor which is better odds then my Fish have, even though it is a supposedly more powerful deck.
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The Problem with the human gene pool is there are no lifeguards
No your not being rude and you make some good points. I'm not going to concede that the deck is bad however (I don't expect to top eight with it in any major tourny though). It's just another one of those things that can't really be judged on a purely hypothetical basis imo. The deck started out as a sort of litmus test for my friends gauntlet, more of a "can your deck deal with this much disruption" thing than a serious tournament deck. I have tested a lot against Zoo and while it isnt easy (not by a long shot) I don't find myself getting roflstomped every game either. I would say that its a 40-60 matchup in their favor which is better odds then my Fish have, even though it is a supposedly more powerful deck.
I can only encourage you to make up a better list.
Adding Blightning would be a good start. Maybe some 1cc discard spells and Grim lavamancer?
I don't have much ideas.
Cards that give your opponents a choice are generally bad. Fact or fiction being the exception to the rule. Remember if gifts ungiven is played right your opponent doesn't get a choice or they only think they get a choice.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Cards that give your opponents a choice are generally bad. Fact or fiction being the exception to the rule. Remember if gifts ungiven is played right your opponent doesn't get a choice or only they only think they get a choice.
Intuition is in that same boat I think. But let's talk modern. What would you run in It's slot? More burn? Removal? Discard? I like thoughtseize and already have a play set... Hmmm
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Intuition is in that same boat I think. But let's talk modern. What would you run in It's slot? More burn? Removal? Discard? I like thoughtseize and already have a play set... Hmmm
TBQH there is not a single creature in your deck that is good enough for modern. If you want to run heavy discard and won't to be competitive I would start with 4 tarmogoyf and 4 dark confidant as my creature base.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I dunno man... Nyxathid isnt THAT bad in a heavy discard shell.
It is inconsistent at best. It is the closest to being playable though.
I have been tinkering with a bug discard deck, its pretty terrible against zoo though.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Perhaps I am a little new at posting here... but why is Nyxathid bad against a deck that wants to play out its hand?
While on the subject... if you treat Dash hopes as a super Lava Spike that they can prevent by letting their spell get counter, is it still bad?
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Storm decks can be summed up to this:
We cast spells to make mana to cast spells, then we use the mana for draw spells, so we can cast those spells to draw more spells or make more mana to cast more spells. Somewhere in this quagmire... we win or lose instantly, usually this is when we stop digging.
Perhaps I am a little new at posting here... but why is Nyxathid bad against a deck that wants to play out its hand?
While on the subject... if you treat Dash hopes as a super Lava Spike that they can prevent by letting their spell get counter, is it still bad?
Nyxathid itself isn't bad against zoo, but its really inconsistent when you compare it to tarmogoyf or cards that aren't just dumb beaters like dark confidant. Discard is bad against zoo is what I was saying.
Its only a counterspell if your opponent is at really low life. Its only a burn spell when your opponent has really high life. Your better just splashing blue for remand/mana leak/ect. Cards that sometimes function one way and other times function another way are bad.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I'm not convinced that Dash Hopes is a terrible card all in all. I can def see where it would be inconsistant but the O.P. has a point: harassment in any form is a good thing, and for BB we're talking about a big deal. It's a counterspell with a twist. On the one hand, perhaps your opponent plays a decoy spell and it gets countered. Oh well. What else were you going to do with that BB? On the other hand, perhaps they try to play the linchpin of their whole deck and then what happens? You get a silver lining by dealing them 5 damage to go with the shenanigans you're going to have to deal with later. As a gauntlet deck it's not a bad challenger, but I don't think I would go to too many tournys with it though. The improved decklist is certainly better than the previous.
I'm not convinced that Dash Hopes is a terrible card all in all. I can def see where it would be inconsistant but the O.P. has a point: harassment in any form is a good thing, and for BB we're talking about a big deal. It's a counterspell with a twist. On the one hand, perhaps your opponent plays a decoy spell and it gets countered. Oh well. What else were you going to do with that BB? On the other hand, perhaps they try to play the linchpin of their whole deck and then what happens? You get a silver lining by dealing them 5 damage to go with the shenanigans you're going to have to deal with later. As a gauntlet deck it's not a bad challenger, but I don't think I would go to too many tournys with it though. The improved decklist is certainly better than the previous.
is it better than other options though? NO. I mean a discard spell or removal spell is better at harassment as you put it. It will never do what you want it to. Your better of splashing blue for counterspells or red for burn.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson
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Here's the BR control list that I'm testing for Worlds. I think its match up against zoo is better than a lot of higher teir decks out there, and Dash hopes just might be what It's missing.
3 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Graven Cairns
4 Mountain
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
7 Swamp
// Creatures
3 Faceless Butcher
3 Jagged Poppet
4 Nezumi Shortfang
3 Nyxathid
3 Rakdos Augermage
3 Dash Hopes
4 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
4 Terminate
4 Anathemancer
4 Blood Moon
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Volcanic Fallout
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
Most cards that gives your opponent such a choice are usually bad.
You most likely won't get the effect that you want when you want it.
You're better of playing some more burn spells than Dash hopes.
Dash hopes will never be or even feel like a hard counter, they'll always take 4 if the card they're playing is changing the tide of the match.
I think its a little different for Dash Hopes but I dare you to try and find a more efficient burn spell than 5 for 2 in modern. My main reasoning behind this is meta choice. IE Zoo. They cast BBE and Cascade into a Knight of the Reliquary. I Dash Hopes the Knight. This is most likely at least turn 3 So they've probably fetched and shocked themselves for at least 3. They pay the Five. Now they're at 12. End turn I Bolt the Knight.
That's two cards for 5 Life and a Powerful creature. Alternatively they let the knight get countered and i bolt the BBE. Either way seems good to me. I don't think that that is a magical Christmas land example either as it is a pretty standard line of play for a lot of zoo builds.
I won't argue however that this doesn't need testing. It might turn out to be not good enough to make the cut, but I don't think its so unpromising that it deserves to be thrown out on principle.
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
Zoo doesn't play BBE that often, but Jund does.
You're right though when you're talking about Zoo giving away a lot of life due to it's manabase but they also pack 4 Lightning Helix.
I don't really see how you're dealing with Zoo when all your critters are only slightly better than Wild Nacatl. Jagged poppet is horrible against any opposing burn spell, Faceless butcher is too slow and won't stick, Nyxathid is a strictly worse creature than goyf and so on.
How can you be 1 for 1ing Zoo when their whole deck is packing better cards? Your exemple is also a bit biased, how often will you see a KoTR in bolt range? With all the fetches it's rarely less than 4 thoughness, otherwise it would be dumb to drop it against any red deck.
In conclusion Dash hopes isn't much the problem here.You should be more worried about your whole list.
I seriously didn't mean to be rude but your 75's aren't viable.
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
I can only encourage you to make up a better list.
Adding Blightning would be a good start. Maybe some 1cc discard spells and Grim lavamancer?
I don't have much ideas.
Just to humor you, here's an updated list with all of the "Bad Cards" replaced with "Good Cards"
3 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Graven Cairns
4 Mountain
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
7 Swamp
// Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Nezumi Shortfang
3 Nyxathid
3 Rakdos Augermage
3 Blightning
2 Damnation
3 Fiery Temper
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
4 Terminate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Anathemancer
4 Blood Moon
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Volcanic Fallout
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Intuition is in that same boat I think. But let's talk modern. What would you run in It's slot? More burn? Removal? Discard? I like thoughtseize and already have a play set... Hmmm
Standard: In Transition
Modern: RG Urzatron
Legacy: W Mighty Quinn
UW Stoneblade
Vintage: GWU "Classic" Angel Oath
GW Enchantress
TBQH there is not a single creature in your deck that is good enough for modern. If you want to run heavy discard and won't to be competitive I would start with 4 tarmogoyf and 4 dark confidant as my creature base.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
It is inconsistent at best. It is the closest to being playable though.
I have been tinkering with a bug discard deck, its pretty terrible against zoo though.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
While on the subject... if you treat Dash hopes as a super Lava Spike that they can prevent by letting their spell get counter, is it still bad?
We cast spells to make mana to cast spells, then we use the mana for draw spells, so we can cast those spells to draw more spells or make more mana to cast more spells. Somewhere in this quagmire... we win or lose instantly, usually this is when we stop digging.
Nyxathid itself isn't bad against zoo, but its really inconsistent when you compare it to tarmogoyf or cards that aren't just dumb beaters like dark confidant. Discard is bad against zoo is what I was saying.
Its only a counterspell if your opponent is at really low life. Its only a burn spell when your opponent has really high life. Your better just splashing blue for remand/mana leak/ect. Cards that sometimes function one way and other times function another way are bad.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
is it better than other options though? NO. I mean a discard spell or removal spell is better at harassment as you put it. It will never do what you want it to. Your better of splashing blue for counterspells or red for burn.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson