Hey guys, trying to put together a new list to try and make a dent in my local meta of U/W and G/W Humans. The goal of this deck is to play as Control/tempo, getting in for poison damage when and where it can. From my limited experience, strapping an Inquisitor's Flail to a Blighted Agent, hurts the opponent.
Here's the decklist I'm sitting on right now, suggestions are welcome.
I think you need more control and less equipment. Flail can be nice, but it can also be pretty dead. Also, I don't like Corrupted Resolve, if you can't get in on a hit, then it because such a dead draw, and with so many aggro decks in the format, you might have issues getting in a hit. Infect is {usually} a tap-out strat, so resolve works against it.
With the concept of this deck apparently being to let one creature get there, I would suggest running 2-3 DoJ and allowing those to do some of the work for you. With everything going to aggro, they would be more useful than you would think.
I'm not a huge fan of the B/W version, as I feel that Lashwrithe/Mono-B version is just straight up better and they are typically trying to do the same thing.
IMO the W/U version is much better and at least tries to attack from a different angle compared to already existing infect builds. I can't help but feel the flail is really subpar, even compared to other equipment (darksteel axe, etc). The biggest problem with this deck is that I feel like it will be quite grind-y overall and yet still lack ways to interact with an opponent's plan.
The drake also feels like it probably should be a clasp (as getting to 8 mana with 23 lands will likely be an issue).
Hmm.. not a bad idea. I just think the equipment makes everything a bit bulky. I mean you want to be a good infect deck regardless of if destiny lands. I love the use of 1/4's to land Destiny. Spellskite obviously the biggest issue for the deck so you need some Revokes out of board.
Personally I don't like the permission. I don't mind a couple the way Humans uses it to keep off a Day or something but 7 is too much. Maybe like 3. I would way more go for tempo plays like Vapor Snags, or maybe even like Feeling of Dread or Frost Breath.. They seem Janky but they are the type of things you want more than Oblivion Rings. Apostle's Blessing and Mutagenic Growth seem decent too. Actually Stave Off might be the best option since it lets you target Spellskite and give it protection from White so it can't steal Destiny from you. I don't like Silver Inlaid Dagger that much. It's cheap but it's still a matter of setup. I played some UG before rotation so I'm definitely a bit of a fan of the Livewire Lash for end game.
Spellskite is pain regardless. Your creature base looks good but I would want to run 18 creatures. Just so the pumps are consistent. You get less all pumps/answers and not enough threat hands. I also want to lower the curve a bit so I'm a little less reliant on 4's so 23 mana feels more comfortable.
Probably more permission in the board. But I figure if most of the permission is going to be used to stop burn or spot removal it's probably better to have ones you can use proactively.
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I don't see Thrummingbird. Is no-one liking it anymore?
Such a slow plan and it doesn't have infect. Being a 1/1 and not a threat on it's own is hard. I mean so much burn around. Proliferating for the win seems miserable on a low curve aggressive build, when you have to deal with Ramp decks. Even with permission without CA you aren't guarenteed to get there. Proliferate on combat damage seems just abysmal.
But surely it's just Plague Stinger? It has evasion, and so is a similar threat to Blighted Agent.
As McPatches suggested, Flail ain't that good. You get an extra 1 damage, then 2, then 4. For three equips you get one more than three Swords would, and half the usefulness. Flail is great to abuse with stuff like Porcelain Legionnaire, but not on 1/1s who would benefit more from Greatsword. (I'm not saying run Greatsword. At all.)
Yeah the equipment choices in the original post aren't great. The worse part about the Flail is it encourages trades. See all those 1/4's in the deck with any other equipment if they get blocked they probably take out the threat short of a Titan. However if a 1/4 with Inquisitors Flail gets blocked yeah it does 2 infect damage but as long as the opponents creature has 2 power it trades. It's nice in combination with other pumps/evasion but you shouldn't be relying on getting them all at once.
The thing with Thrummingbird is it is only ever one Infect (if they are already poisoned). It doesn't work well with any of the pumps. The reason Mono B plays those 1/1's is yes they get in early for 1, but then you slap a Lashwrithe on it and come in for 5 or 6. Putting an equipment/destiny on it doesn't let it do any more than 1 poison(the equipment would have to give real double strike or infect for it to do any more than that).
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Hmm.. not a bad idea. I just think the equipment makes everything a bit bulky. I mean you want to be a good infect deck regardless of if destiny lands. I love the use of 1/4's to land Destiny. Spellskite obviously the biggest issue for the deck so you need some Revokes out of board.
Personally I don't like the permission. I don't mind a couple the way Humans uses it to keep off a Day or something but 7 is too much. Maybe like 3. I would way more go for tempo plays like Vapor Snags, or maybe even like Feeling of Dread or Frost Breath.. They seem Janky but they are the type of things you want more than Oblivion Rings. Apostle's Blessing and Mutagenic Growth seem decent too. Actually Stave Off might be the best option since it lets you target Spellskite and give it protection from White so it can't steal Destiny from you. I don't like Silver Inlaid Dagger that much. It's cheap but it's still a matter of setup. I played some UG before rotation so I'm definitely a bit of a fan of the Livewire Lash for end game.
Spellskite is pain regardless. Your creature base looks good but I would want to run 18 creatures. Just so the pumps are consistent. You get less all pumps/answers and not enough threat hands. I also want to lower the curve a bit so I'm a little less reliant on 4's so 23 mana feels more comfortable.
Probably more permission in the board. But I figure if most of the permission is going to be used to stop burn or spot removal it's probably better to have ones you can use proactively.
Proxied this up yesterday to throw against a few of my friends' decks. Ended up cutting a Stave Off for another Mutagenic Growth, and I'm thinking about cutting the Livewire Lash for some other equipment, but other than that, the Feeling of Dreads were really MVPs against my friend's U/W Humans. Having a ***** of a time against a W/b/g Tokens deck though, any suggestions?
Proxied this up yesterday to throw against a few of my friends' decks. Ended up cutting a Stave Off for another Mutagenic Growth, and I'm thinking about cutting the Livewire Lash for some other equipment, but other than that, the Feeling of Dreads were really MVPs against my friend's U/W Humans. Having a ***** of a time against a W/b/g Tokens deck though, any suggestions?
Hmm sounds like reasonable swap ups although I find Livewire Lash very useful if you can get it equipped. It usually only takes targetting it once or so to do the trick. Even if I have to Feeling of Dread my own guy Twice that's 4 poison to the head. Even against burn decks like RDW I have found the main deck matchup not terrible which is usually a weakness of these sort of decks.
As for Junk Tokens.. hmm tricky. First it depends on the build. If they dont run mana dorks they are obviously a board attrition deck. They would naturally have a weakness to fliers but probably run a ton of removal. That's one place Mono Black's ability to Skitherix is pretty useful. I wonder if Spellskite out of the board would be useful here, or just more permission. The biggest problem this deck has is limited utility in it's creatures and you only have so many spell slots. Swords seem reasonable. So does Ratchet Bomb perhaps since we don't care about zero or one costs with this list. You should be able to set up states where you can just win on one turn but it might not always be straight forward. I think Stave Off is useful here and Livewire Lash. Maybe Apostle's Blessing is a better choice than Stave Off if you need to protect your artifacts and don't have spellskite issues. There is always Turn Aside as well but i don't like that it is only defensive.
If they are a mana dorks version you just need a bit of removal, like Gut Shots. Maybe even Dismembers out of the board seems reasonable. Since you are on a different axis and are aggressive I don't think the life loss is that relevant. Oblivion Rings are also reasonable, but remember your curve starts to creep which might make your deck less effective.
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His build is very much a tempo deck, it only splashes Green for Gavony Township activation. It's primarily the standard white token build, but running a ton of spot removal. Ratchet Bomb and possibly Apostle's Blessing out of the board are about the only ways I could beat it.
I played it a bit more today, and I can consistently beat U/W Humans, and I've had a pretty favourable matchup with Wolf Run (Iyanagi's list). Even without a functional sideboard, I went 3-2 today. I've come around on the Livewire Lashes as well. Trading off spot removal for 2 poison seems worth it.
Try runninr Runechanter's Pike and Spectral Flight...
Also for mathcups against Tokens and other firly aggro decks, try running more with Vapor Snag and DoJ, it allows you to bounce one of their guys or bounce your guy and Wrath...
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves... Song of an unreachable dream...
Try runninr Runechanter's Pike and Spectral Flight...
Also for mathcups against Tokens and other firly aggro decks, try running more with Vapor Snag and DoJ, it allows you to bounce one of their guys or bounce your guy and Wrath...
Why would he run runechanters pike? it's not very good.
Okay, not initially as good as I thought (I tohught you were running more instants, my bad), but because the deck runs high on the instants and sorceries...
Btw, sorry for the poor spelling, I'm typing a bit to fast and my fingers are cold... >.<;;
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves... Song of an unreachable dream...
I'd even be tempted to go Honor the pure but there aren't many good white infect just some high mana cost fliers or use all artifact infect creatures and use tempered Steel.
so Blue evasion and White pump. similar to the Black/green removal/pump.
I don't think White has anything to add to a black infect deck.... Dark Favor gives almost as much as Angelic Destiny,Phyrexain Crusader already has first strike.. there are lot of black infect fliers anyway.
White offers creatures with enough of a back end to dodge Slagstorm removal, and they are the creatures that can soak an Angelic Destiny better than anything. Sure, if I wanted I could make B/G Infect, but it wouldn't be nearly as fun or unexpected, and I'd fold to a Sword of Feast and Famine. By running U/W, I'm opening my deck up to a much more engaging, original playstyle (at least for my meta), and I can actually engage with everything except Tokens in a vaguely favourable matchup and have fun doing it.
Spectral Flight is an interesting choice, since it's basically a permanent Mutagenic Growth but with flying attached. What would you suggest I cut for the Flights?
Viral Drake or Priest of Norn with Livewire Lash just really wants you to use twisted image. I ran a similar list back before Innistrad and that had to be my favorite play.
So far it has looked pretty good... I virtually never find myself needing to mulligan. And because of all the ability to dig/draw, I can very consistently get an Agent out by T4 with a Destiny or Sword in hand, if not already in play in the case of a Sword.
There are two cards I'm not too sure I want to keep using:
Jace, Memory Adept: This guy works for extra card draw, and also as a decoy to lure their attackers, but I'm not sure he's needed. Maybe I should go for Gideon or Venser, or another creature.
Inkmoth Nexus: I'm not sure I need this one either. Blighted Agent is my main source of Infect damage, and there have been a couple times when I had Destiny in hand on T4 or T5 but couldn't cast it because I didn't have a second white source. I may cut it and add 2 Seachrome Coast and 2 Plains.
I'm also not sure what to use in the Sideboard. Timely Reinforcements, Spellskite and Stave Off seem like shoe-ins, but other than that I'm unsure. I might consider Deceiver Exarch in the sideboard against U/W Humans or other Sword decks to flash in and tap down an attacker.
Inkmoth is a must in any infect deck, if you arent running it, it's like running a monogreen deck and calling it Monoblack control....
I dont think it really needs Jace in this deck, if anything you could run the daggers, Runchanter's pike (since you run through so many instants), mutagenic growth...
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves... Song of an unreachable dream...
Still not sure about the sideboard though. I'll probably pack 2-3 Timely Reinforcements and some Stave Offs. Other than that, not sure. Maybe 2 SoWaP to swap out against mono-red.
I am debating how to split the Daggers/Swords/Destinies. The current build is what I'm leaning toward, but I'm considering cutting one Destiny for another SoFaF. Any thoughts?
Also, Gitaxian Probe is another card I've considered making room for, but I'm not sure I want to cut any spells.
Here's the decklist I'm sitting on right now, suggestions are welcome.
4 Blighted Agent
4 Lost Leonin
4 Priests of Norn
3 Viral Drake
Spells: 23
4 Mana Leak
3 Corrupted Resolve
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Angelic Destiny
3 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
3 Inquisitor's Flail
4 Inkmoth Nexus
8 Plains
7 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
I plan to add 4 Seachrome Coast as I can trade for them.
I also brewed a B/W version of the same thing, but I can't figure out which looks better.
4 Lost Leonin
4 Plague Stinger
3 Phyrexian Crusader
3 Priests of Norn
3 Septic Rats
3 Hand of the Praetors
3 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
3 Angelic Destiny
3 Go For The Throat
2 Doom Blade
3 Inquisitor's Flail
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Isolated Chapel
9 Swamp
7 Plains
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
With the concept of this deck apparently being to let one creature get there, I would suggest running 2-3 DoJ and allowing those to do some of the work for you. With everything going to aggro, they would be more useful than you would think.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
IMO the W/U version is much better and at least tries to attack from a different angle compared to already existing infect builds. I can't help but feel the flail is really subpar, even compared to other equipment (darksteel axe, etc). The biggest problem with this deck is that I feel like it will be quite grind-y overall and yet still lack ways to interact with an opponent's plan.
The drake also feels like it probably should be a clasp (as getting to 8 mana with 23 lands will likely be an issue).
Personally I don't like the permission. I don't mind a couple the way Humans uses it to keep off a Day or something but 7 is too much. Maybe like 3. I would way more go for tempo plays like Vapor Snags, or maybe even like Feeling of Dread or Frost Breath.. They seem Janky but they are the type of things you want more than Oblivion Rings. Apostle's Blessing and Mutagenic Growth seem decent too. Actually Stave Off might be the best option since it lets you target Spellskite and give it protection from White so it can't steal Destiny from you. I don't like Silver Inlaid Dagger that much. It's cheap but it's still a matter of setup. I played some UG before rotation so I'm definitely a bit of a fan of the Livewire Lash for end game.
Spellskite is pain regardless. Your creature base looks good but I would want to run 18 creatures. Just so the pumps are consistent. You get less all pumps/answers and not enough threat hands. I also want to lower the curve a bit so I'm a little less reliant on 4's so 23 mana feels more comfortable.
I think I'm going to try this list:
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Islands
7 Plains
4 Blighted Agent
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Lost Leonin
4 Priests of Norn
2 Viral Drake
3 Mutagenic Growth
4 Stave Off
2 Vapor Snag
2 Feeling of Dread
2 Mana Leak
2 Livewire Lash
4 Angelic Destiny
Probably more permission in the board. But I figure if most of the permission is going to be used to stop burn or spot removal it's probably better to have ones you can use proactively.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Such a slow plan and it doesn't have infect. Being a 1/1 and not a threat on it's own is hard. I mean so much burn around. Proliferating for the win seems miserable on a low curve aggressive build, when you have to deal with Ramp decks. Even with permission without CA you aren't guarenteed to get there. Proliferate on combat damage seems just abysmal.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Yeah the equipment choices in the original post aren't great. The worse part about the Flail is it encourages trades. See all those 1/4's in the deck with any other equipment if they get blocked they probably take out the threat short of a Titan. However if a 1/4 with Inquisitors Flail gets blocked yeah it does 2 infect damage but as long as the opponents creature has 2 power it trades. It's nice in combination with other pumps/evasion but you shouldn't be relying on getting them all at once.
The thing with Thrummingbird is it is only ever one Infect (if they are already poisoned). It doesn't work well with any of the pumps. The reason Mono B plays those 1/1's is yes they get in early for 1, but then you slap a Lashwrithe on it and come in for 5 or 6. Putting an equipment/destiny on it doesn't let it do any more than 1 poison(the equipment would have to give real double strike or infect for it to do any more than that).
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Proxied this up yesterday to throw against a few of my friends' decks. Ended up cutting a Stave Off for another Mutagenic Growth, and I'm thinking about cutting the Livewire Lash for some other equipment, but other than that, the Feeling of Dreads were really MVPs against my friend's U/W Humans. Having a ***** of a time against a W/b/g Tokens deck though, any suggestions?
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
Hmm sounds like reasonable swap ups although I find Livewire Lash very useful if you can get it equipped. It usually only takes targetting it once or so to do the trick. Even if I have to Feeling of Dread my own guy Twice that's 4 poison to the head. Even against burn decks like RDW I have found the main deck matchup not terrible which is usually a weakness of these sort of decks.
As for Junk Tokens.. hmm tricky. First it depends on the build. If they dont run mana dorks they are obviously a board attrition deck. They would naturally have a weakness to fliers but probably run a ton of removal. That's one place Mono Black's ability to Skitherix is pretty useful. I wonder if Spellskite out of the board would be useful here, or just more permission. The biggest problem this deck has is limited utility in it's creatures and you only have so many spell slots. Swords seem reasonable. So does Ratchet Bomb perhaps since we don't care about zero or one costs with this list. You should be able to set up states where you can just win on one turn but it might not always be straight forward. I think Stave Off is useful here and Livewire Lash. Maybe Apostle's Blessing is a better choice than Stave Off if you need to protect your artifacts and don't have spellskite issues. There is always Turn Aside as well but i don't like that it is only defensive.
If they are a mana dorks version you just need a bit of removal, like Gut Shots. Maybe even Dismembers out of the board seems reasonable. Since you are on a different axis and are aggressive I don't think the life loss is that relevant. Oblivion Rings are also reasonable, but remember your curve starts to creep which might make your deck less effective.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I played it a bit more today, and I can consistently beat U/W Humans, and I've had a pretty favourable matchup with Wolf Run (Iyanagi's list). Even without a functional sideboard, I went 3-2 today. I've come around on the Livewire Lashes as well. Trading off spot removal for 2 poison seems worth it.
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
Also for mathcups against Tokens and other firly aggro decks, try running more with Vapor Snag and DoJ, it allows you to bounce one of their guys or bounce your guy and Wrath...
Standard:
BWB/R Eldrazi AggroBR
Modern:
UMerfolkU
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves...
Song of an unreachable dream...
Why would he run runechanters pike? it's not very good.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Btw, sorry for the poor spelling, I'm typing a bit to fast and my fingers are cold... >.<;;
Standard:
BWB/R Eldrazi AggroBR
Modern:
UMerfolkU
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves...
Song of an unreachable dream...
Vault Skywards... blue gives evasion...
I'd even be tempted to go Honor the pure but there aren't many good white infect just some high mana cost fliers or use all artifact infect creatures and use tempered Steel.
so Blue evasion and White pump. similar to the Black/green removal/pump.
I don't think White has anything to add to a black infect deck.... Dark Favor gives almost as much as Angelic Destiny,Phyrexain Crusader already has first strike.. there are lot of black infect fliers anyway.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Spectral Flight is an interesting choice, since it's basically a permanent Mutagenic Growth but with flying attached. What would you suggest I cut for the Flights?
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
3 Angelic Destiny
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ponder
2 Dissipate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
7 Island
3 Plains
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Moorland Haunt
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Seachrome Coast
So far it has looked pretty good... I virtually never find myself needing to mulligan. And because of all the ability to dig/draw, I can very consistently get an Agent out by T4 with a Destiny or Sword in hand, if not already in play in the case of a Sword.
There are two cards I'm not too sure I want to keep using:
Jace, Memory Adept: This guy works for extra card draw, and also as a decoy to lure their attackers, but I'm not sure he's needed. Maybe I should go for Gideon or Venser, or another creature.
Inkmoth Nexus: I'm not sure I need this one either. Blighted Agent is my main source of Infect damage, and there have been a couple times when I had Destiny in hand on T4 or T5 but couldn't cast it because I didn't have a second white source. I may cut it and add 2 Seachrome Coast and 2 Plains.
I'm also not sure what to use in the Sideboard. Timely Reinforcements, Spellskite and Stave Off seem like shoe-ins, but other than that I'm unsure. I might consider Deceiver Exarch in the sideboard against U/W Humans or other Sword decks to flash in and tap down an attacker.
I dont think it really needs Jace in this deck, if anything you could run the daggers, Runchanter's pike (since you run through so many instants), mutagenic growth...
Standard:
BWB/R Eldrazi AggroBR
Modern:
UMerfolkU
"My blade slices the air, sakura petals scatter, crimson blossoms appear on the ground..."
Autumn, the season of the Harvest and Falling Leaves...
Song of an unreachable dream...
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spellskite
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
3 Angelic Destiny
3 Think Twice
3 Ponder
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Dissipate
2 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
8 Island
4 Plains
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Moorland Haunt
3 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Seachrome Coast
Still not sure about the sideboard though. I'll probably pack 2-3 Timely Reinforcements and some Stave Offs. Other than that, not sure. Maybe 2 SoWaP to swap out against mono-red.
4 Blighted Agent
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spellskite
Spells:
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
3 Angelic Destiny
3 Ponder
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Dissipate
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
Lands:
8 Island
5 Plains
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Moorland Haunt
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Flashfreeze
2 Day of Judgment
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Viral Drake
I am debating how to split the Daggers/Swords/Destinies. The current build is what I'm leaning toward, but I'm considering cutting one Destiny for another SoFaF. Any thoughts?
Also, Gitaxian Probe is another card I've considered making room for, but I'm not sure I want to cut any spells.