Apparently, Cheaters do prosper

Sharpened · 12-12-2011, 07:59 AM

#Bertoncheaty

http://mixedknuts.wordpress.com/2011...ex-bertoncini/

It's always fun to see a large check and set of P9 going to a guy who clearly, and repeatedly cheats.

**RabidVacin** · 12-12-2011, 08:18 AM

He may not get punished, but I think it is safe to say that it will be really hard for him to cheat in the future.

Scandic · 12-12-2011, 08:20 AM

The below is an Original Post I made in MtG-general some days ago:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...usion_and_WotC.

****************************************************************************************
5.2 Collusion and Bribery
The decision to drop, concede, or agree to an intentional draw cannot be made in exchange for or influenced by the offer of any reward or incentive.

2.4 Conceding or Intentionally Drawing Games or Matches
If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match.

The problem is 2.4. When you allow such you effectively say; "we dont even try look for organized collusion". Organized collusion, what is that ? One short word: team. A team is in the position that they before the tournament starts can agree upon scenarios in which to conceede to each other in matches, with the purpose of producing as high finishes for the team as possible, which directly relates to prizes.

This is collusion.

I wrote "teams can...". How can one know if players make such agreements before a tourney ? Even though one can assume this and that looking at what happens in the tourney, the organizer must never put himself in the position that he needs to prove outside agreements before calling upon the collusion rule. Such agreements can be very very hard to detect, and even harder to prove. But once you require the players to actually play out the matches, you have something concrete to hang your verdict on.

- but there are sooo many matches and it is impossible to force players to play well.

Red match = one player is by calculation already in or out of top8, but faces a player that still has a chance at top8.
Yellow match = a match where both players still have a chance at top8.
Green match = both players are by calculation already out of contetion for top8 OR both players are already inside top8.

The number of Red matches in a tournament is very very small. The judges' computers can be programmed to help them map next round fast, and thus plan more effectively. All this before pairings go up. Key players can be called upon before pairings as well.

At competetive/proffessional level it is not unreasonable to expect players to have an idea about how a given match-up can be won. As with rules-knowledge, it is expected but not formally checked.

Red matches: In magic it is so that a significant number of decissions are not hard, like playing Mountain + Goblin Guide round 1 (instead of bolting the opponent to 17 life). Excatly what it means to check a player the judges dont need to be so informative about, there is no demand for this within sports! But most importantly: there is no doubt that the sheer presence of a judge will have a significant positive influence upon the players' decissions.

The option to concede is only alive within Magic. No other organized game allows it. The responsebility to play out the game you came for is vitally important to the soul of the game, any game. Without it keywords like "intent" goes down the drain, Sportsmanship becomes more of a choice and not the mutual understanding we like it to be. At lowest level of play Ive seen decissions to conceede be decided by all the wrong incentives, like "I dont want him to reach top8". The given and rules-approved opportunity to fix tournament standings is so blatant and exploitable that it creates for bad sportsmanship to carve its way into unrelated areas of MtG, like the game play itself.
*********************************************************************************************

Further down in this thread I write that Judges are dressed up in straightjackets with the concession rule. Us who play MtG knows that this straightjacket-phenomena is relevant in other areas as well "the right answer is...", "the right approach is..." this and that. The judges need to start searching what is the "relevant answer", "the fair answer" and what "approach that serves the game best".

Judges cowards ? Not at all, they just need to be given a proper rules-document to go by, and not have some stupid profit-driven people to write it.

******************************************************************************************

MrIndigo wrote:
EDIT: @Thread: This isn't an issue of 'abusing the rules' or exploiting a loophole. This situation was considered AND THE RULE WAS DELIBERATELY ADDED. Wizards WANTS players to be able to do this.

And when Teams systematicly use this rule for their benefit, and arguements about how the game is balanced is based on how often the "best (teams (URG!))" win, in an individual sport. Then I shouldnt read profit-incentives into the inclusion of this rule ?
*******************************************************************************************

When I hear stories like Bertocinis' my angry thoughts do not go in his direction, but in WotC's direction !!!

pandafarmer · 12-12-2011, 08:29 AM

Wow... I guess all eyes on him now. It's be interesting to see how well he plays next season.

TheLizard · 12-12-2011, 08:51 AM

Scandic: I know you have a ridiculous vendetta against CFB, but perhaps if you took the time to read the thread you would notice that it is about Bertoncheaty.

pandafarmer: He's declared his intention to retire sometime next year. I think this will probably accelerate that process... a lot.

Spawnman62 · 12-12-2011, 09:05 AM

Wow. Just wow. Watched all the vids. Pretty legit. This dude doesn't get ban-hammered, I will definitely not have any more (like I had any to begin with) faith in TO's/DCI.

Riot · 12-12-2011, 09:11 AM

Hah. I heard him called Bertoncheaty before but never knew why/how bad it really was. Pretty pathetic that nothing has been done.

Morphling · 12-12-2011, 09:18 AM

I don't really see how they can NOT 1) strip him of his win and/or 2) bring the hammer down pretty hard on this guy.

What a ****ing loser. They need to do something.

I'd think they kinda have to, reading that article. Wow.

pandafarmer · 12-12-2011, 09:29 AM

Yeah shocking nothing has happened up to this point, esp with proof on multiple videos.

Underdog1012 · 12-12-2011, 09:32 AM

It really makes you think how many people know/knew he is/was cheating. I'm going to lose ALL of my respect for SCG if he's not stripped of his title. I have very little for them anyways. Adam deserves that title.

Kaitscralt · 12-12-2011, 09:33 AM

Drew Levin is damning his own cause by focusing on the friendship he used to have with Alex, and dropping the f-bomb multiple times. A blog is not an article. If this is the type of letter he sent to the DCI then they probably threw it in the garbage.

Kirblar · 12-12-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madding

Drew Levin is damning his own cause by focusing on the friendship he used to have with Alex, and dropping the f-bomb multiple times. A blog is not an article. If this is the type of letter he sent to the DCI then they probably threw it in the garbage.

It is not.

___alt · 12-12-2011, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madding

Drew Levin is damning his own cause by focusing on the friendship he used to have with Alex, and dropping the f-bomb multiple times. A blog is not an article. If this is the type of letter he sent to the DCI then they probably threw it in the garbage.

"A blog is not an article" ? What exactly did you try to say here ?
Of course this blog entry is not what he sent to the DCI and it's pretty obvious when you read it.

Underdog1012 · 12-12-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ___alt

"A blog is not an article" ? What exactly did you try to say here ?
Of course this blog entry is not what he sent to the DCI and it's pretty obvious when you read it.

I agree completely. After all a blog is very opinionated. He did back his accusations with cold hard facts. I support his accusations after what I have seen. (Brainstorm for 4) (Explore Explore) The list goes on.

Riot · 12-12-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog1012

I agree completely. After all a blog is very opinionated. He did back his accusations with cold hard facts. I support his accusations after what I have seen. (Brainstorm for 4) (Explore Explore) The list goes on.

The brainstorm crap was really eye opening to me. To me it was malicious and planned. He knew that the type of deck he was paying he was going to have a lot of cards in and out of his hand and it would be hard for his opponent to keep track of it all. So the first brainstorm "miss play" can bee seen as a mistake, but the drawing 4 a few minutes later was clearly insane and it is clear he knew it was 4 because while he put them into his hand quickly you can see him spread it out with his forefinger and thumb. He knew he drew 4.

12-12-2011, 07:59 AM	#1
Sharpened Ascended Mage Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 446	Apparently, Cheaters do prosper #Bertoncheaty http://mixedknuts.wordpress.com/2011...ex-bertoncini/ It's always fun to see a large check and set of P9 going to a guy who clearly, and repeatedly cheats.
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12-12-2011, 08:20 AM	#3
Scandic Ascended Mage Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 234	The below is an Original Post I made in MtG-general some days ago: http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...usion_and_WotC. **************************************************************************************** 5.2 Collusion and Bribery The decision to drop, concede, or agree to an intentional draw cannot be made in exchange for or influenced by the offer of any reward or incentive. 2.4 Conceding or Intentionally Drawing Games or Matches If a game or match is not completed, players may concede or mutually agree to a draw in that game or match. The problem is 2.4. When you allow such you effectively say; "we dont even try look for organized collusion". Organized collusion, what is that ? One short word: team. A team is in the position that they before the tournament starts can agree upon scenarios in which to conceede to each other in matches, with the purpose of producing as high finishes for the team as possible, which directly relates to prizes. This is collusion. I wrote "teams can...". How can one know if players make such agreements before a tourney ? Even though one can assume this and that looking at what happens in the tourney, the organizer must never put himself in the position that he needs to prove outside agreements before calling upon the collusion rule. Such agreements can be very very hard to detect, and even harder to prove. But once you require the players to actually play out the matches, you have something concrete to hang your verdict on. - but there are sooo many matches and it is impossible to force players to play well. Red match = one player is by calculation already in or out of top8, but faces a player that still has a chance at top8. Yellow match = a match where both players still have a chance at top8. Green match = both players are by calculation already out of contetion for top8 OR both players are already inside top8. The number of Red matches in a tournament is very very small. The judges' computers can be programmed to help them map next round fast, and thus plan more effectively. All this before pairings go up. Key players can be called upon before pairings as well. At competetive/proffessional level it is not unreasonable to expect players to have an idea about how a given match-up can be won. As with rules-knowledge, it is expected but not formally checked. Red matches: In magic it is so that a significant number of decissions are not hard, like playing Mountain + Goblin Guide round 1 (instead of bolting the opponent to 17 life). Excatly what it means to check a player the judges dont need to be so informative about, there is no demand for this within sports! But most importantly: there is no doubt that the sheer presence of a judge will have a significant positive influence upon the players' decissions. The option to concede is only alive within Magic. No other organized game allows it. The responsebility to play out the game you came for is vitally important to the soul of the game, any game. Without it keywords like "intent" goes down the drain, Sportsmanship becomes more of a choice and not the mutual understanding we like it to be. At lowest level of play Ive seen decissions to conceede be decided by all the wrong incentives, like "I dont want him to reach top8". The given and rules-approved opportunity to fix tournament standings is so blatant and exploitable that it creates for bad sportsmanship to carve its way into unrelated areas of MtG, like the game play itself. ******************************************************************************************* Further down in this thread I write that Judges are dressed up in straightjackets with the concession rule. Us who play MtG knows that this straightjacket-phenomena is relevant in other areas as well "the right answer is...", "the right approach is..." this and that. The judges need to start searching what is the "relevant answer", "the fair answer" and what "approach that serves the game best". Judges cowards ? Not at all, they just need to be given a proper rules-document to go by, and not have some stupid profit-driven people to write it. ************************************************************************************** MrIndigo wrote: EDIT: @Thread: This isn't an issue of 'abusing the rules' or exploiting a loophole. This situation was considered AND THE RULE WAS DELIBERATELY ADDED. Wizards WANTS players to be able to do this. And when Teams systematicly use this rule for their benefit, and arguements about how the game is balanced is based on how often the "best (teams (URG!))" win, in an individual sport. Then I shouldnt read profit-incentives into the inclusion of this rule ? ***************************************************************************************** When I hear stories like Bertocinis' my angry thoughts do not go in his direction, but in WotC's direction !!! Last edited by Scandic; 12-12-2011 at 08:36 AM.
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12-12-2011, 08:29 AM	#4
pandafarmer Just pootin' Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 12,759	Wow... I guess all eyes on him now. It's be interesting to see how well he plays next season. __________________ www.mtgotraders.com - Enter Code PANDAPAYPAL for 8% off! www.CapeFearGames.com - Enter Code PANDA for 5% off! Limit of 1 coupon per order
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12-12-2011, 09:05 AM	#6
Spawnman62 Wizard Mentor Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Ogden, Ut. Posts: 708	Wow. Just wow. Watched all the vids. Pretty legit. This dude doesn't get ban-hammered, I will definitely not have any more (like I had any to begin with) faith in TO's/DCI. __________________ "Failing to Find" Since March 2010. Current Capt. of Team "Ju" I play this: Spoiler:
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12-12-2011, 09:11 AM	#7
Riot Ascended Mage Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 363	Hah. I heard him called Bertoncheaty before but never knew why/how bad it really was. Pretty pathetic that nothing has been done. __________________ M:TG is all about reading comprehension Sig courtesy of Hirashin Avvie courtesy of XenoNinja
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12-12-2011, 08:51 AM	#5
TheLizard Resident Planeswalker Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 4,024	Scandic: I know you have a ridiculous vendetta against CFB, but perhaps if you took the time to read the thread you would notice that it is about Bertoncheaty. pandafarmer: He's declared his intention to retire sometime next year. I think this will probably accelerate that process... a lot.
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12-12-2011, 09:29 AM	#9
pandafarmer Just pootin' Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 12,759	Yeah shocking nothing has happened up to this point, esp with proof on multiple videos. __________________ www.mtgotraders.com - Enter Code PANDAPAYPAL for 8% off! www.CapeFearGames.com - Enter Code PANDA for 5% off! Limit of 1 coupon per order
0

12-12-2011, 09:33 AM	#11
Kaitscralt A frog among toads. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Somewhere in NY Posts: 9,643	Drew Levin is damning his own cause by focusing on the friendship he used to have with Alex, and dropping the f-bomb multiple times. A blog is not an article. If this is the type of letter he sent to the DCI then they probably threw it in the garbage. __________________ Follow on Twitter! @diestoremoval
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