Introduction:
For those who have been following modern, you are likely to already know how the deck works. For those who don't, it runs simply to win turn 4. After resolving a Hive Mind, a pact will be played and copied by hive mind, making the opposing player have to pay for it first and be unable to, thus losing the game.
The deck doesn't rely on creatures to win, has lots of ways to tutor, and once a hivemind resolves it is near impossible to counter anything (and you get to play your copy first and counter their counter). Most hate is ineffectual with the only real threats being Gaddok Teeg, a crapton of hand disruption(with a fast clock), or a thoughtseize AND an extraction. Even a chalice on 0 only counters the original spell, with the copy still resolving and making them have to pay.
Deck list(w/tags):
Deck lists
bozidar2121 (4-0)
Modern Daily #3166163 on 12/19/2011
Card Choices:
There are 2 main ways to go about building a Hive Mind list. I chose these to be representative of the options. The first list is a fast combo-oriented list that tries to guarantee a turn 3 or 4 victory. Very few hate cards are present and it hopes on remands and pact of negations to finish the game before the opponent can do anything.
The second list, one I developed for last year's extended season (only difference being sleight of hand over ponder and gitaxian probe added), is a little slower (though still quite capable of the turn 4 combo win), but is much more resilient to hate like gaddok teeg or counters.
The cards that are pretty much core to any Hive Mind list:
This leaves about 4-8 slots depending on the number of lands chosen and the amount of pacts used.
The first list this is very straight forward. Run 10 pacts with the full set of pacts of negation for getting the hive mind out, and run remands to stall while still getting cards.
My list is all about being able to fight through hate and win those games that the combo doesn't come together in the first 4 turns. Blood Moon is absolutely amazing against most zoo decks, any 3-colour tempo/aggro deck(bant, jund) or any control/cloudpost/tron deck (try casting a cryptic command now, jerk!) It also makes another must-counter card against some matchups making the hivemind a much easier thing to resolve.
AKA Blood Moon is a beast.
Firespout deals with a lot of problems. Gaddok Teeg is the predominant one, as well as an early rush by zoo. getting a 2 or 3 for 1 on turn 3 against zoo sets you up nicely for that turn 4/5 win without the fear of death. As well, it clears the board against affinity, elves, Merfolk and Shamans(is that a deck?!)
Strategy/Matchups:
These matchups will be updated when I have further testing, but I can offer some tidbits from the start of my testing and the testing from 2 extended seasons ago (which, with the number of bannings, seems like it was faster than it is now).
Against Zoo:
Board in the last few moon effects and sweepers and just destroy. If they get an absolute god hand, it can and will race you, but this one is a great matchup (In PTQ testing last time, we were 60-40 vs domain zoo (better now without nacatl), and 75-25 vs big zoo.) Test this one a lot because you'll be playing it a bunch!
Against Jund/Death cloud type decks:
I put these together not because they are generally the same, but because they play very similar in this matchup. They both try to hurt your hand while trying to have enough of a clock to kill you before you combo. Game 2 they bring in extraction's and hope to get a hivemind in the graveyard and extraction you to defeat. Use serum visions wisely to hide key cards and post board save counters for only extractions or a spell that'll kill you. These decks weren't big last time, but we were 2-0 in PTQ matches.
Against Control:
Gigadrowse is a champ, as are moon effects. Play must counters until they either run out (see with a probe/assume) or gigadrowse them out end of turn and get an easy win. The only loss in a tournament to a control deck was with a horrible misplay (played the wrong pact that he could pay for) that easily would have given the win otherwise.
Against MonoWhite:
Pretty much un-loseable. Isn't that dandy?
Against Red:
This is our bane. I would conservatively put this at 35-65 in their favour. I don't know how to beat them other than to race, and I don't think it's worth stuffing the sideboard when that may not do anything. A few sun droplets can pull out the game, but usually if you aren't on the play and don't have the t4 combo, you lose.
I always loved Hive Mind decks because you can win at any time regardless of what the opponent does (for the most part.) What's that? You gained ten million life? You lose. You have a big scary field and will kill me next turn? You're dead. As long as you're alive, you have a chance at winning.
I currently have the Worlds list built (was using a PT Phillie list before) and it's quite good. The big difference was dropping Condescend and adding more ramp. The Worlds version seems more consistent.
Rule of Law/Ethersworn Canonist randomly hoses us, too. It can be played around, but it does make things more difficult.
Against mono-red, I believe I have Leyline of Sanctity on my sideboard. I know I run Pyroclasm, so our plan against creature based strategies is somewhat more favorable.
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On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
I would say that Rule of Law/Ethersworn canonist are definitely much less threatening than Gaddok Teeg or Meddling Mage. With Wild Nacatl out of the format, Pyroclasm may be a better bet than firespout for board sweep as well. (only difference is firespout kills kird ape, loam lion and often can get a goyf on turn 3).
As for the lists, I definitely feel 11 pacts + 2 tolaria west is too many. The majority of the meta is zoo/deck's with a few soft counters. My number 1 play with pact of negation isn't protecting my Hive Mind, but playing a different pact, having their copy resolve, then targeting the original with the pact of negation to make them have to pay 9+ mana. My original list ran 3 tolaria west and 5 pacts and that was plenty. I went 10-4 in PTQs losing to burn, boros, a horrible misplay and burn. Never came close to losing to Zoo, hypergenesis or Dark depths(which I would say are both stronger decks than anything available right now).
I personally hate transmuting in this deck. I very very rarely transmute anything, as I either have the combo piece already, or it's simply too late to matter.
I like having the four Pacts of Negation. I've been seeing a lot more control decks on MTGO. But I also do what you, use it counter a different pact. Sometimes I have to use it to counter a Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions.
We could always splash a color. White nets us Path to Exile and Idyllic Tutor, black nets us Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek and Doom Blade/Go for the Throat, and green gives us access to Beast Within. If we do splash white, we could throw in Flagstones of Trokair with Perilous Research, but that's most likely not consistent enough.
Another thought that occurred to me, the land base is mostly Islands, we could probably get away with Vedalken Shackles. At least in my list it is, I run four Steam Vents along with the eight islands.
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On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
so I've been working on this list for a couple of days now and i think I'm in at a good spot with it. just recently i was able to pull of a turn 2 win, 3 times. let me know what you think of my list.
Noob question: What does Ethereal Usher bring to the table?
I cut ethereal usher a long time ago. currently I'm going back and forth between spoils of the vault and plunge into darkness. it cuts down on the number of transmute cards you need to find other pieces and since you normally have a piece or 2 the turn before you go off, these 2 cards can get you the lost pieces.
Telling Time is complete garbage. You get rid of one of the worst of three cards and have to take the other two. Reshape is much too situational to actually work. Another possible land could be Dimir Aqueduct, which seems bad but is fairly helpful for ramp purposes since it ensures you keep making land drops and taps for 2 mana. It makes a solid 2-of.
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You like Super Smash Bros.? Melee or Brawl? Check this out! http://projectm.dantarion.com/
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
I've seen it a few times in the Modern Dailies, even right now. I would have thought more people would have 3-1'd with W/x Tokens by now post-AVR than Hive Mind, but Hive Mind has more appearances. This deck can get there (at least some of the time).
In the meantime, I haven't seen Ad Nauseam-Angel's Grace since AVR got released, even though I believe Hive Mind and Ad Naus are equally competitive.
Moved to Developing Competitive according to Bippy's data and several verified 3-1 finishes.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
This is the list im starting with in prep for GP Columbus at the end of July. I feel like Combo is in a good spot right now for success. Has anyone else been running Hive mind to any success? I could use a some more ideas on things to try.
Anyone tried a Gifts Ungiven build, similar to the Gifts Storm decks which sometimes do well? I have never played this deck before, just something which I wondered about.
I tried it a couple days ago. I was having problems going off consistently. I'm not sure there is enough room MD to add in the required stuff for gifts. I want to win turn 3-4 and we dont have the accelertation needed to gifts on 3 and win on 4.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
You use Remand to buy you time early game and help dig for your combo. If you don't quite have the mana ramp to get your Hive Mind on the board, you can sit back and use Remand to slow down your opponent. Early game it's basically a Time Walk, and in a deck such as Hive Mind, you really only need to get to turn 3-4 to win.
Remand is all about tempo. Ideally you use remand to keep their threats/combos from resolving the turns leading up to your hive mind/pacts. Also the draw is not insignificant. Need an extra draw? Remand anything they play
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Current Decks
Standard BEtched Champion/InfectB WSoilders/knightsW WUVenser SplicerWU RRDWR GFeed the Pack comboG WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH GEzuri, Elf OverrunG BGeth, GraverobberB UThada Adel, ThiefU RUrabrask, Big RedR WElesh Norn, CrusadeW WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
A pretty well known MTGO streamer, Starsh1ne, has been running this list with a reasonable amount of success.
The only thing that's really different from the lists in the 2011 primer is Izzet Charm, and the use of white pacts since the black and green pacts are too easy to pay for with Jund everywhere.
I don't see why he doesn't play 4x lotus bloom, easiest way to ramp.
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"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
For those who have been following modern, you are likely to already know how the deck works. For those who don't, it runs simply to win turn 4. After resolving a Hive Mind, a pact will be played and copied by hive mind, making the opposing player have to pay for it first and be unable to, thus losing the game.
The deck doesn't rely on creatures to win, has lots of ways to tutor, and once a hivemind resolves it is near impossible to counter anything (and you get to play your copy first and counter their counter). Most hate is ineffectual with the only real threats being Gaddok Teeg, a crapton of hand disruption(with a fast clock), or a thoughtseize AND an extraction. Even a chalice on 0 only counters the original spell, with the copy still resolving and making them have to pay.
Deck list(w/tags):
Deck lists
bozidar2121 (4-0)
Modern Daily #3166163 on 12/19/2011
Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Shivan Reef
8 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Steam Vents
2 Tolaria West
Creatures
1 Ethereal Usher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Hive Mind
1 Intervention Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Pentad Prism
4 Remand
4 Seething Song
4 Serum Visions
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Firespout
2 Ignorant Bliss
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Snare
My list - will explain later
4 Scalding Tarn
8 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Steam Vents
2 Tolaria West
1 Ethereal Usher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Hive Mind
3 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
4 Pentad Prism
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
2 Repeal / Condescend
4 Seething Song
4 Serum Visions
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Firespout
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Blood Moon
2 Magma Jet
4 Spell Pierce
2 Sun Droplet
3 Gigadrowse
Card Choices:
There are 2 main ways to go about building a Hive Mind list. I chose these to be representative of the options. The first list is a fast combo-oriented list that tries to guarantee a turn 3 or 4 victory. Very few hate cards are present and it hopes on remands and pact of negations to finish the game before the opponent can do anything.
The second list, one I developed for last year's extended season (only difference being sleight of hand over ponder and gitaxian probe added), is a little slower (though still quite capable of the turn 4 combo win), but is much more resilient to hate like gaddok teeg or counters.
The cards that are pretty much core to any Hive Mind list:
The first list this is very straight forward. Run 10 pacts with the full set of pacts of negation for getting the hive mind out, and run remands to stall while still getting cards.
My list is all about being able to fight through hate and win those games that the combo doesn't come together in the first 4 turns. Blood Moon is absolutely amazing against most zoo decks, any 3-colour tempo/aggro deck(bant, jund) or any control/cloudpost/tron deck (try casting a cryptic command now, jerk!) It also makes another must-counter card against some matchups making the hivemind a much easier thing to resolve.
AKA Blood Moon is a beast.
Firespout deals with a lot of problems. Gaddok Teeg is the predominant one, as well as an early rush by zoo. getting a 2 or 3 for 1 on turn 3 against zoo sets you up nicely for that turn 4/5 win without the fear of death. As well, it clears the board against affinity, elves, Merfolk and Shamans(is that a deck?!)
Strategy/Matchups:
These matchups will be updated when I have further testing, but I can offer some tidbits from the start of my testing and the testing from 2 extended seasons ago (which, with the number of bannings, seems like it was faster than it is now).
Against Zoo:
Board in the last few moon effects and sweepers and just destroy. If they get an absolute god hand, it can and will race you, but this one is a great matchup (In PTQ testing last time, we were 60-40 vs domain zoo (better now without nacatl), and 75-25 vs big zoo.) Test this one a lot because you'll be playing it a bunch!
Against Jund/Death cloud type decks:
I put these together not because they are generally the same, but because they play very similar in this matchup. They both try to hurt your hand while trying to have enough of a clock to kill you before you combo. Game 2 they bring in extraction's and hope to get a hivemind in the graveyard and extraction you to defeat. Use serum visions wisely to hide key cards and post board save counters for only extractions or a spell that'll kill you. These decks weren't big last time, but we were 2-0 in PTQ matches.
Against Control:
Gigadrowse is a champ, as are moon effects. Play must counters until they either run out (see with a probe/assume) or gigadrowse them out end of turn and get an easy win. The only loss in a tournament to a control deck was with a horrible misplay (played the wrong pact that he could pay for) that easily would have given the win otherwise.
Against MonoWhite:
Pretty much un-loseable. Isn't that dandy?
Against Red:
This is our bane. I would conservatively put this at 35-65 in their favour. I don't know how to beat them other than to race, and I don't think it's worth stuffing the sideboard when that may not do anything. A few sun droplets can pull out the game, but usually if you aren't on the play and don't have the t4 combo, you lose.
I currently have the Worlds list built (was using a PT Phillie list before) and it's quite good. The big difference was dropping Condescend and adding more ramp. The Worlds version seems more consistent.
Rule of Law/Ethersworn Canonist randomly hoses us, too. It can be played around, but it does make things more difficult.
Against mono-red, I believe I have Leyline of Sanctity on my sideboard. I know I run Pyroclasm, so our plan against creature based strategies is somewhat more favorable.
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Wydwen|Edric|Sakashima|Marrow-Gnawer|Hazezon
8.5 Tails|Seton|Rasputin|Doran|Gisela|Karona|Márton
As for the lists, I definitely feel 11 pacts + 2 tolaria west is too many. The majority of the meta is zoo/deck's with a few soft counters. My number 1 play with pact of negation isn't protecting my Hive Mind, but playing a different pact, having their copy resolve, then targeting the original with the pact of negation to make them have to pay 9+ mana. My original list ran 3 tolaria west and 5 pacts and that was plenty. I went 10-4 in PTQs losing to burn, boros, a horrible misplay and burn. Never came close to losing to Zoo, hypergenesis or Dark depths(which I would say are both stronger decks than anything available right now).
Test Blood Moon. You will NOT be disappointed.
I like having the four Pacts of Negation. I've been seeing a lot more control decks on MTGO. But I also do what you, use it counter a different pact. Sometimes I have to use it to counter a Sleight of Hand or Serum Visions.
We could always splash a color. White nets us Path to Exile and Idyllic Tutor, black nets us Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek and Doom Blade/Go for the Throat, and green gives us access to Beast Within. If we do splash white, we could throw in Flagstones of Trokair with Perilous Research, but that's most likely not consistent enough.
Another thought that occurred to me, the land base is mostly Islands, we could probably get away with Vedalken Shackles. At least in my list it is, I run four Steam Vents along with the eight islands.
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Wydwen|Edric|Sakashima|Marrow-Gnawer|Hazezon
8.5 Tails|Seton|Rasputin|Doran|Gisela|Karona|Márton
1 Ethereal Usher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Hive Mind
2 Lotus Bloom
3 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
4 Pentad Prism
4 Remand
4 Reshape
4 Seething Song
2 Serum Visions
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Sleight of Hand
5 Island
4 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Tolaria West
4 Blood Moon
4 Echoing Truth
3 Slaughter Pact
4 Trickbind
Modern
:rakdos::selesnya: goblins
:symr::symb::symg: Glass Cannon Griselbrand
sig made by Hakai Studios (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6100225)
It transmutes for a hive mind if you cant seem to find one.
H/W List http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=112656
I cut ethereal usher a long time ago. currently I'm going back and forth between spoils of the vault and plunge into darkness. it cuts down on the number of transmute cards you need to find other pieces and since you normally have a piece or 2 the turn before you go off, these 2 cards can get you the lost pieces.
current list:
4 Pentad Prism
3 Lotus Bloom
4 Seething Song
2 Pact of Negation
4 Pact of the Titan
3 Reshape
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Island
4 Mountain
1 Graven Cairns
4 Hive Mind
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Slaughter Pact
4 Serum Visions
4 City of Brass
4 Telling Time
2 Plunge into Darkness
2 Halimar Depths
3 Nature's Claim
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Firespout
3 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
Modern
:rakdos::selesnya: goblins
:symr::symb::symg: Glass Cannon Griselbrand
sig made by Hakai Studios (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6100225)
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
Modern
:rakdos::selesnya: goblins
:symr::symb::symg: Glass Cannon Griselbrand
sig made by Hakai Studios (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6100225)
In the meantime, I haven't seen Ad Nauseam-Angel's Grace since AVR got released, even though I believe Hive Mind and Ad Naus are equally competitive.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Ethereal Usher
Land
6 Forest
10 Island
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Tolaria West
4 Hive Mind
Spells
4 Rampant Growth
4 Harrow
3 Serum Visions
2 Slaughter Pact
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Intervention Pact
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Manamorphose
I was thinking about changing it to more of a counter ramp feel after the board but i'm not sure
Thread merged; please keep decklist discussion out of the general modern forum. Here is a link to the Modern Forum Rules.
-Tom
Creatures
Spells
Enchantments
Artifacts
Lands
Sideboard
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
However, I'm not 100% sure what the use of Remand is. Am I using it on a pact? or an opponents spell?
Thanks for you help, in advance.
Question moved into Hive Mind thread.
-Tom
Thanks to the [Æther] shop for the sig!
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
I don't see why he doesn't play 4x lotus bloom, easiest way to ramp.