I feel like discussion of these three has gotten to much the same point Emrakul did last year. So I'm making another dedicated thread. If you want to discuss anything about how these three cards are degenerate/distort the game/distort the meta/should be banned, or the opposite of any of these things (this includes Kokusho unbanning!), please do so here, and keep it out of other threads. I will be watching this thread closely in case arguments get out of control (as they often do elsewhere).
I think that the last two of these are powerful enough that they should at least be considered for banning. Whenever I bribery, I automatically target the guy who is playing green, and always look for Titan, never considering to get anything else ever. Sphinx I have not had to face very much, most of my experience is my playing him and drawing about 4 cards before he dies. Most of the other people in my group never seem to play him, although my group is pretty small.
Bribery, for one, would be infinitely more interesting without Primeval Titan.
kokusho is extremely mean, if its in a deck they usually want to abuse it to hose eveeryone over and over.
Consecrated sphinx just gives way too much CA when it comes out. 6 cards yes please.
Prime Time I feel although super good, isnt as broken as the other two.
I mean yes, Prime time ->inkmoth nexus -> kessig, just plain win. But its ETB effect ( i know this will be flamed), i think is the lesser of the 3 in terms of power.
I however think that given the chance a majority will ban all 3 for power reasons, they are just that good.
I welcome the chance for Koko to come back =P
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I've had more issues with Eldrazi than most of these, honestly. I've been a big supporter for unbanning Koko, but that's another story. I feel CS should be banned from the sheer amount of cards that can interact and create an infinite loop of card-draw. If there are two of them with different controllers, the two players can draw their decks, leaving anyone else way behind in CA. With all the clone effects, it's just a matter of time if we cannot remove it from the board fast enough.
Prime Time is nice, but never game-ending. It's great for the extra resources, but doesn't seem to offend anyone. Just my two cents.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
You know my first instinct is to say none of them. But being a Kokushu player in MP in the past I've seen Kokusho win many games if I was up against a decks with damage as their only win conditions, I invariably won. Then again in EDH there is general damage plus a lot of combos and it's a singleton format which makes me wonder if it would be as strong and played as consistently. I guess in mono black or a deck with a lot of tutors it would be played pretty often.
The main difference I see between Kokusho and the others mentioned is usually Kokusho wants to die and punishes you for non-exile removal which the other two don't. That alone is a big difference and makes them very different animals not to mention if you're running Kokusho you'll most likely be running sac outlets and recursion as well.
I voted for "none of them". The cards are really not THAT busted...people just need to play some more counterspells in my opinion or remove from game effects.
They are all really broken, stupid strong cards that can completely warp a game and blow people out. They really aren't "fair" by any stretch of the imagination... and that is why they should be LEGAL to play with. It's like peoples' assessment of a card is based on how much it sucks to have those cards played against them, NOT how much fun it is to play those cards against others.
I think Kokusho's banning had to do with its ability to directly effect life totals, while the other 2 just grant you resources. If we had EDH decks made of 99 lands, he's the only one out of those 3 that could win by its ability alone.
edit: Actually, a better way to say it would be that Kokusho's ability is the only one that can win you the game on its own with successive triggers.
I think Kokusho's banning had to do with its ability to directly effect life totals, while the other 2 just grant you resources. If we had EDH decks made of 99 lands, he's the only one out of those 3 that could win by its ability alone.
edit: Actually, a better way to say it would be that Kokusho's ability is the only one that can win you the game on its own with successive triggers.
I think this reasoning is the best to explain why Koko was/should be banned and the others left alone.
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The one that really stands out to me is the sphinx. It draws such a ridiculous amount of cards if it survives even one turn and does tend to warp the game around it. The one knock Id say about kokusho is that he kinda hoses any decks that dont win as a result of some infinite combo or another. Prime time is just good and high powered but isnt as scary as the other two
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
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I think that the last two of these are powerful enough that they should at least be considered for banning. Whenever I bribery, I automatically target the guy who is playing green, and always look for Titan, never considering to get anything else ever. Sphinx I have not had to face very much, most of my experience is my playing him and drawing about 4 cards before he dies. Most of the other people in my group never seem to play him, although my group is pretty small.
Bribery, for one, would be infinitely more interesting without Primeval Titan.
All this argument proves is that Bribery is a problem, not Titan. Or perhaps the player, who instinctively goes for the Titan, instead of making a more interesting play. But... depends how competitive the game is.
Although I like Bribery. It strikes me as "Hey, you were planning on using Emrakul (before it was banned) against me, so it's only fair that I use it against you." (Everytime I took Emrakul it died before my next turn.)
I've never seen a game warped by any of these three cards. There's the occasional shenanigans where 2 players get Consecrated out and joking deck themselves, but there's never been a fight to steal, copy, etc. any of these. (We allow our group to use Kokusho, and Chaos Orb of course )
I say this all the time on this website because this is the only place where i hear ppl clamoring for bannings on a daily basis; If 6-drop creatures are owning you, then you need to reform your deck with ways to fight it or you deserve to lose. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
All this argument proves is that Bribery is a problem, not Titan. Or perhaps the player, who instinctively goes for the Titan, instead of making a more interesting play. But... depends how competitive the game is.
No way. Bribery is the one card that kept Emrakul in check when she was legal. Bribery is a beast of a card because it makes every single creature in your deck a liability... that's why it is the answer NOT the problem.
Here's the thing, our group has lifted the ban on Kokusho, the Evening Star so sake's of trying it out. Here's what I have come to realize about Kok. Now, I must say my current deck of choice is Chainer, Dementia Master and I find myself always tutoring for Kok for obvious reasons. He can throw a game in my favor pretty fast but then again the deck is PERFECT for a card like Kok because of it's ability is tailor made to be abused in my deck. That being said, I understand why he's banned BUT decks are more so prepared for something like Kok. I get bogged all the time and rightfully so.
Now on to Primeval Titan. People play Bribery they get a Titan. People play Tooth and Nail they get Titan (80% of the time). People play Beacon of Unrest to get a Titan. People play Clone, Phyrexian Metamorph guess what they copy? You guessed it. Primeval Titan. There is no card in our own EDH playgroup that is more copied and stolen than this 6/6 Titan. I'll get back to this in a minute.
Consecrated Sphinx. This one is tricky. If it goes around the table it grants incredible card advantage but we have several players who play with cards like Myojin of Night's Reach. There is also a lot of removal so this guy isn't as warping as other cards are.
Back to Primeval Titan. This guy makes the format stale. If banning this guy in the cards what it will do is create choices for players. We would have be original again as to what to get with that Bribery, Beacon or whatever it may be. Huge mana pools win in EDH. Titan is the BEST card in the format that helps ANY deck playing G do this. Even if you have a spot removal he's already gotten the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Cabal Coffers or Reliquary Tower / Winding Canyons.
So here's the deal. If you ban Primeval Titan you should ban Consecrated Sphinx. I would say no to ban PTitan BUT I will say this, if it would go, we would see a much more diverse creature selection with above said cards.
So as funny as it sounds I would say this, ban none or all.
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hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
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It's not easy to think of other cards that warp the game for so little mana.
If any of the other titans hits the board and manages to survive a turn, the game isn't over. Not so with ptitan. Kind of like any of the other eldrazi and Emrakul. A four-mana swing early in the game is just as crippling as Emrakul in the late game.
My biggest pet-peeve with Ptitan is if you play green, you'll put this card in your deck over any other green card. I think the format is healthier when we have fewer autoincludes.
I didn't understand why people said Primival Titan break the format. If you play it in your deck like green deck and you can only recur it with Eternal Witness. I'm pretty happy because with my reanimate it, abuse it and win the game with you own creature. At the end, when I didn't need it I exile it to be sure nobody use it.
C Sphinx wasn't really powerfull when you play removal. It will never see the upkeep of a player.
Kokusho was a really strong card. You just need to test the card to know how easy it is with black to abuse it. I will be happy to see it unbanned but I'm pretty sure everybody will not be interested to see it in my deck.
I didn't understand why people said Primival Titan break the format. If you play it in your deck like green deck and you can only recur it with Eternal Witness. I'm pretty happy because with my reanimate it, abuse it and win the game with you own creature. At the end, when I didn't need it I exile it to be sure nobody use it.
Here are just 5 cards I name that are pretty frequent inn my meta. You know what card is targeted first? Every time when available? Yeah, Primeval Titan. We have a couple UG players and you know how many times I play mono black and I see a UG player drop a turn 4 Titan and the follow it up with a copy? They have 8-12 lands and I have 4. Yup, you guessed it, A LOT.
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hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
No way. Bribery is the one card that kept Emrakul in check when she was legal. Bribery is a beast of a card because it makes every single creature in your deck a liability... that's why it is the answer NOT the problem.
Disagree. It introduces the fear of playing powerful creatures into deckbuilding. It is never fun to have Bribery played against you, nor remotely interesting, and it has never been fun to cast Bribery, either. When Kokusho was legal, you always targeted the Black player. Emrakul was legal, you targeted random player X. Right now, you always target the Green player or the Blue player. It stagnates the game, and it is not welcome in most casual groups I play with. The key word might be casual here, though.
Disagree. It introduces the fear of playing powerful creatures into deckbuilding. It is never fun to have Bribery played against you, nor remotely interesting, and it has never been fun to cast Bribery, either. When Kokusho was legal, you always targeted the Black player. Emrakul was legal, you targeted random player X. Right now, you always target the Green player or the Blue player. It stagnates the game, and it is not welcome in most casual groups I play with. The key word might be casual here, though.
Well said. I am quite certain that the poll results here will reflect players choice in how they wish to see EDH played.
Those that wish no bannings play most competitively.
and in varying degrees to the other side...
Those that wish all bannings play the most casually.
Even upon my posting, I believe many of the strong voices have posted, and the poll is a pretty good shape of how players feel about the format (I also include awareness from other cas/comp threads in my reasoning)
Anyways, the format will run with the majority. The minority will adapt and die.
I'm digging my grave with a backdoor.
Whenever I bribery, I automatically target the guy who is playing green, and always look for Titan, never considering to get anything else ever.
Bribery, for one, would be infinitely more interesting without Primeval Titan.
LoL. Pretty much this. That is, in the beginning of the game. I don't bother with Prime time by the once I've hit 8+ land drops. That's when I go for a Sphinx.
Land can be destroyed way easier than cards can be discarded in EDH. Something to consider.
Ban sphinx? Won't miss him. Not banned? I'll just steal it or reanimate it. It's the 101rst card in any blue(black) deck I make.
I just spoke with a friend of mine and we're going to go the route of unbanning Kokusho under house rules and see what happens. I will post my results if and when it gets played.
no problems here with prime time and c sphinx.they are fun to play and a bummer when they get wrathed,o ringed,pathed,terrored,doombladed and all the other creature removal effects.they are usually two cards or two lands,and sucks up a removal spell.thats why i play them.
to be honest i havnt played with or against kokusho,it seems like the same thing.
abusable,just like alot of other cards in edh.i think he should still be banned as a general though only because if prime time was a legend or sphinx they would be amazing,and people wouldnt put 2-3 cards in the decks to search them out.
Well said. I am quite certain that the poll results here will reflect players choice in how they wish to see EDH played.
Those that wish no bannings play most competitively.
and in varying degrees to the other side...
Those that wish all bannings play the most casually.
Even upon my posting, I believe many of the strong voices have posted, and the poll is a pretty good shape of how players feel about the format (I also include awareness from other cas/comp threads in my reasoning)
Anyways, the format will run with the majority. The minority will adapt and die.
I'm digging my grave with a backdoor.
I disagree...I play competitively sometimes and in those playgroups, Sphinx and Titan are fine because we all have lots of answers. In casual is where theres a problem..
I feel like discussion of these three has gotten to much the same point Emrakul did last year. So I'm making another dedicated thread. If you want to discuss anything about how these three cards are degenerate/distort the game/distort the meta/should be banned, or the opposite of any of these things (this includes Kokusho unbanning!), please do so here, and keep it out of other threads. I will be watching this thread closely in case arguments get out of control (as they often do elsewhere).
Bribery, for one, would be infinitely more interesting without Primeval Titan.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Consecrated sphinx just gives way too much CA when it comes out. 6 cards yes please.
Prime Time I feel although super good, isnt as broken as the other two.
I mean yes, Prime time ->inkmoth nexus -> kessig, just plain win. But its ETB effect ( i know this will be flamed), i think is the lesser of the 3 in terms of power.
I however think that given the chance a majority will ban all 3 for power reasons, they are just that good.
I welcome the chance for Koko to come back =P
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Prime Time is nice, but never game-ending. It's great for the extra resources, but doesn't seem to offend anyone. Just my two cents.
-C.S. Lewis
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The main difference I see between Kokusho and the others mentioned is usually Kokusho wants to die and punishes you for non-exile removal which the other two don't. That alone is a big difference and makes them very different animals not to mention if you're running Kokusho you'll most likely be running sac outlets and recursion as well.
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edit: Actually, a better way to say it would be that Kokusho's ability is the only one that can win you the game on its own with successive triggers.
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I think this reasoning is the best to explain why Koko was/should be banned and the others left alone.
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Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
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None of them are remotely banworthy.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
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WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
All this argument proves is that Bribery is a problem, not Titan. Or perhaps the player, who instinctively goes for the Titan, instead of making a more interesting play. But... depends how competitive the game is.
Although I like Bribery. It strikes me as "Hey, you were planning on using Emrakul (before it was banned) against me, so it's only fair that I use it against you." (Everytime I took Emrakul it died before my next turn.)
I've never seen a game warped by any of these three cards. There's the occasional shenanigans where 2 players get Consecrated out and joking deck themselves, but there's never been a fight to steal, copy, etc. any of these. (We allow our group to use Kokusho, and Chaos Orb of course )
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Now on to Primeval Titan. People play Bribery they get a Titan. People play Tooth and Nail they get Titan (80% of the time). People play Beacon of Unrest to get a Titan. People play Clone, Phyrexian Metamorph guess what they copy? You guessed it. Primeval Titan. There is no card in our own EDH playgroup that is more copied and stolen than this 6/6 Titan. I'll get back to this in a minute.
Consecrated Sphinx. This one is tricky. If it goes around the table it grants incredible card advantage but we have several players who play with cards like Myojin of Night's Reach. There is also a lot of removal so this guy isn't as warping as other cards are.
Back to Primeval Titan. This guy makes the format stale. If banning this guy in the cards what it will do is create choices for players. We would have be original again as to what to get with that Bribery, Beacon or whatever it may be. Huge mana pools win in EDH. Titan is the BEST card in the format that helps ANY deck playing G do this. Even if you have a spot removal he's already gotten the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth / Cabal Coffers or Reliquary Tower / Winding Canyons.
So here's the deal. If you ban Primeval Titan you should ban Consecrated Sphinx. I would say no to ban PTitan BUT I will say this, if it would go, we would see a much more diverse creature selection with above said cards.
So as funny as it sounds I would say this, ban none or all.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
If any of the other titans hits the board and manages to survive a turn, the game isn't over. Not so with ptitan. Kind of like any of the other eldrazi and Emrakul. A four-mana swing early in the game is just as crippling as Emrakul in the late game.
My biggest pet-peeve with Ptitan is if you play green, you'll put this card in your deck over any other green card. I think the format is healthier when we have fewer autoincludes.
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C Sphinx wasn't really powerfull when you play removal. It will never see the upkeep of a player.
Kokusho was a really strong card. You just need to test the card to know how easy it is with black to abuse it. I will be happy to see it unbanned but I'm pretty sure everybody will not be interested to see it in my deck.
WBGhost Council of OrzhovaBW
GUBThe MimeoplasmBUG
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UGRRiku of Two ReflectionsRGU
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I'll help you understand.
Bribery
Animate Dead
Beacon of Unrest
Tooth and Nail
Phyrexian Metamorph
Here are just 5 cards I name that are pretty frequent inn my meta. You know what card is targeted first? Every time when available? Yeah, Primeval Titan. We have a couple UG players and you know how many times I play mono black and I see a UG player drop a turn 4 Titan and the follow it up with a copy? They have 8-12 lands and I have 4. Yup, you guessed it, A LOT.
hatred
I will flay the skin from your flesh,
the flesh from your bones,
and scrape your bones dry,
and still you will not have suffered enough!
Quote the Ryxsyn;
NeVeRMoRe!
You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain!
-Harvey Dent
Disagree. It introduces the fear of playing powerful creatures into deckbuilding. It is never fun to have Bribery played against you, nor remotely interesting, and it has never been fun to cast Bribery, either. When Kokusho was legal, you always targeted the Black player. Emrakul was legal, you targeted random player X. Right now, you always target the Green player or the Blue player. It stagnates the game, and it is not welcome in most casual groups I play with. The key word might be casual here, though.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Well said. I am quite certain that the poll results here will reflect players choice in how they wish to see EDH played.
Those that wish no bannings play most competitively.
and in varying degrees to the other side...
Those that wish all bannings play the most casually.
Even upon my posting, I believe many of the strong voices have posted, and the poll is a pretty good shape of how players feel about the format (I also include awareness from other cas/comp threads in my reasoning)
Anyways, the format will run with the majority. The minority will adapt and die.
I'm digging my grave with a backdoor.
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LoL. Pretty much this. That is, in the beginning of the game. I don't bother with Prime time by the once I've hit 8+ land drops. That's when I go for a Sphinx.
Land can be destroyed way easier than cards can be discarded in EDH. Something to consider.
Ban sphinx? Won't miss him. Not banned? I'll just steal it or reanimate it. It's the 101rst card in any blue(black) deck I make.
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to be honest i havnt played with or against kokusho,it seems like the same thing.
abusable,just like alot of other cards in edh.i think he should still be banned as a general though only because if prime time was a legend or sphinx they would be amazing,and people wouldnt put 2-3 cards in the decks to search them out.
I disagree...I play competitively sometimes and in those playgroups, Sphinx and Titan are fine because we all have lots of answers. In casual is where theres a problem..
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