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I. Introduction
What is Burning Vengeance?
Burning Vengeance is a deck based around it's namesake card, Burning Vengeance. Basically the deck plays like counterburn, but it has much stronger late game as you gain incremental advantage every time you cast something from your graveyard (flashback) with Burning Vengeance on the field.
For new players, when playing this deck you will hardly ever be playing cards on your own turn. You will want to keep mana open for counterspells and if you don't counter anything you can play a draw spell at the end of your opponents turn. Usually you don't want to run Burning Vengeance out early because it will most likely cause you to tap out early game when you shouldn't be. I have found "sweepers" like Day of Judgment and Slagstorm very useful as they give us the time needed to stabilize. Damage should be directed at your opponents face 90% of the time. When I say this, I mean your main priority is removal of life total, and not that you should just ignore creature threats that would kill you. I'll say this again, Burning Vengeance is not Burning Vengeance, it is counterburn and it should be played that way.
II. The Deck
Core Cards
This is essentially the skeleton of the deck. You want to be running the following as a minimum in every single BV build.
4Burning Vengeance: This is the reason you're playing this deck. When you're playing 15+ flashback spells, all of which generate card advantage on their own, it really becomes quite an engine. When you get to start picking off aggro hordes left and right, burning Titans and Delvers alike, and then get to turn around and kill them with it? Sign me up.
It's important to note that the deck does not rely on the card. While it's great when you draw it, and you basically win if you untap with multiples, it's not the end of the world when you don't draw it, or they Oblivion Ring it.
1-2 Devil's Play: Very important to the deck, as it's basically our finisher. You can't reliably expect to kill them with a single BV without assistance (although the deck certainly is capable), and this is that assistance. "Oh, you're at 10 life? I win."
Devil's Play also excels in its versatility. It's good at randomly killing the occasional Titan, or Delver of Secrets on turn 2. There's a reason we all play the card: It's just good, pure and simple. Play 2 copies unless you have an optional creature-based win condition alongside it.
Card Draw:
These are the lifeblood of the deck. They get you the cards you need and when played from the graveyard they win you the game. They also let you play 24 lands in a deck that wants the land drops of a 27 land deck. You should be playing between 9 and 13 cards from here, but 11 is most common.
4 Think Twice: Standard blue card draw, plus flashback. Don't run less than 4, no matter how tempting. It's good in every single situation, it's never dead, and it's great playing draw go. 4-of staple.
2-4 Desperate Ravings: This card is just amazing. Need land? Play Ravings. Need spells? Play Ravings. And if you don't need either, then you get to save it for later! Instant speed, card advantage, digs deeper than Think Twice. Play 2-4 copies, no questions asked.
0-2 Faithless Looting: One of the more hyped cards of the set, Looting is, astonishingly, not very good. The reason stems from its inherent card disadvantage.
Now, you might be quick to point out that discarding a flashback card means it's not card disadvantage. However, if you think about it, all of our flashback cards have this amazing inbuilt mechanism to get themselves in the graveyard — called casting it — and most importantly, they replace themselves while doing so. If you cast two copies of Think Twice, you replace both of them. If you cast Looting and discard those Think Twices, you're suddenly down on cards.
So, all Looting actually does is save you mana. And that, when playing a draw-go counterburn deck focused around both surviving to turn 10 and cheap draw spells, is not a great idea.
0-3 Forbidden Alchemy: Alchemy is simply amazing at digging. While the card is pretty optional in current lists, nothing else digs like it. For three mana, you get great Impulse-like card selection, but with the enormous upside of discarding the rest. This means you can take a sweeper, counterspell or BV, and get a free Think Twice or Ravings dumped for you. And to top it all off, you get to do it again!
The flashback can easily be achieved in several ways, if you aren't already playing Grixis colours. Shimmering Grotto is a very common splash land in builds playing a fourth or fifth colour, and this gives you Alchemy's flashback without any extra effort. It's also common to run 1-2 black dual lands, just to increase your black count. Or in a pinch, Snapcaster can flash Alchemy back on the cheap, and dodge the black requirement.
0-1Blue Sun's Zenith: Often run as a singleton, this card is simply raw card drawing at its best. While it's pretty bad before turn 7, casting this just once gives you a really huge amount of lategame gas. Playing it for X=4 is incredibly strong, and for any more just flat-out wins you the game. It's earned its spot, but the draw suite is personal preference.
Counterspells:
You're playing blue, so you're playing counterspells. No questions asked. Undoubtedly one of the strengths of the deck, and augmented beautifully by Snapcaster Mage. Run 6-8 in most builds.
4 Mana Leak: Obvious card is obvious. Automatic 4-of staple.
2-4 Dissipate: Dissipate is actually an amazing card in control. It's great from the midge forward, but is basically your only true hard counterspell. It's most commonly run as 2 copies in the main, with another 1 or 2 in the board. Coming back off Snapcaster is a great advantage too, as is the ability to truly counter Lingering Souls.
0-2 Negate: This is another option as a 1-2 of. It's reasonably good against the metagame. While it won't ever be a dead card, there are plenty of situations in which you need to counter a creature, and so any more than 1-2 main is asking a lot. Normally only run as a supplement to 3 Dissipate, as an 8th counter over the 4th Dissipate.
Sweepers:
So, do you like not dying? I do. You want to live to see turn 5? Play 4-6 sweepers maindeck. The removal suite is where the colour variants start to differ, and you can see some of the reasons to be playing black, white or green.
2-4 Slagstorm: The core sweeper in the deck. This is basically supplemented by the other sweepers in the deck. It's pretty fantastic in the current format, but make sure your manabase can support the RR reliably on turn 3.
0-3 Day of Judgment: Best sweeper in the format, but you'll have to splash white if you want it.
0-2 Blasphemous Act: A sweeper generally used as a supplement in budget or Grixis versions, it is also a reasonable card in its own right, as it's able to easily kill Titans and Dungrove Elders, unlike most of our other sweepers. However, it's almost strictly inferior to Day of Judgment if you're able to run it.
0-2 Whipflare: Great against Tokens and Delver decks, but dead against Tempered Steel, so watch out when playing it. Usually played as the lower half of a split with Slagstorm.
0-2 Black Sun's Zenith: The black sweeper. Slow, clunky, and requires double black. The shuffling is more a curse than a blessing, because you can't even Snapcaster it back (which happens more often than you'd think).
There are upsides however. It kills Thrun, which is a really big reason to be playing it, especially when people play a singleton to fetch with Green Sun's Zenith. It also dodges cards like Mutagenic Growth. At least consider it, if you're playing the black build.
Spot Removal
0-2 Tribute to Hunger: A fantastic spell in any black version, Tribute serves as both an excellent maindeck out to Geist of Saint Traft, Thrun, and Dungrove Elder, but also as a nice lifegain buffer against quick aggressive starts. Most often seen as a singleton alongside a Doom Blade suite in Grixis.
0-2 Geistflame: This used to be an auto 3-4 of, back when x/1 creatures were running amok in standard. However, owing to heavy use of Gut Shot, the format has evolved and Geistflame just isn't good enough anymore. While some budget versions run a few to increase their flashback count, you're better off running Doom Blade effects or Galvanic Blast.
0-2 Galvanic Blast: A nice spot removal spell, Galvanic Blast was used for a while just after Spirit Delver became all the rage. The interaction with Snapcaster Mage makes it amazing, and the combo is great at burning people for 6-10 out of nowhere (BV or two in play, double Blast, untap and swing). It's still nice to be able to kill most weenies in the format for a single mana, and at instant speed, but it's not really necessary. Doom Blade effects or Oblivion Rings will serve you better as your main removal, but consider it if you have a few slots to spare.
0-3 Doom Blade/Go for the Throat: Used interchangeably, these are nice spot removal options to round out the list. Tried and tested, and great with Snapcaster. Quite a good reason to be playing black, and easily splashable.
0-3 Oblivion Ring: This is the number 2 reason to be in white, behind Day of Judgment. "O-ring" is pure gold in essentially every situation — it deals with so many threats that you can't actually kill. Undying? No sweat. Shrine of Burning Rage? Gone without a trace. Planeswalkers got you down? Not anymore. Honour of the Pure? Dead, end of story.
Creatures
One of Burning Vengeance's strengths is that it's essentially creatureless game 1. That said, there are a few creatures which can provide value when played in small numbers, as well as the omnipresent Snapcaster Mage.
3-4 Snapcaster Mage: This card is a must for a competitive BV deck. It's a counterspell, it's a Doom Blade and it's a sweeper, all in one card. It means you get to cheat on card numbers, and it means you gain card advantage. There's a reason he demands his hefty pricetag, and it's certainly worth it.
The reason one might play 3 copies is because we don't have that many targets in the deck. Because targeting a sweeper isn't great value and doesn't happen that often, his only other targets are counters, plus any Doom Blades/Tragic Slips that you run. If you have at least 9-10 non-sweeper targets without flashback already, then play the full set; but with 8 or less you'd be best off with 3.
0-2 Grave Titan: Occasionally run in the sideboard or as a single in the main in Grixis versions, usually for control matchups. It's the best finisher from an 'answer me or die' perspective, but it offers no other utility, and the double black can be a pain, so we tend not to use it.
0-2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: Probably the most effective pseudo-titan, Elesh Norn is able to shut down a surprisingly wide variety of decks — everything from Wolf Run and Delver to UW Humans and Tempered Steel. Often it doesn't even have to stick to be effective as a boardwipe, but bringing it in as a nice pasteboard surprise means your opponent will (hopefully) now have no removal, and will promptly get destroyed.
0-2 Wurmcoil Engine: A rare choice, Wurmcoil Engine is a potential candidate for non-white decks having issues with quick aggro starts. Windmill-slamming him on turn 6 is a great way to turn the tables on aggro, and his removal resistance makes him a reasonable choice for the maindeck. However, he's not very commonly played due to his lack of utility, and white decks are probably better off with Timely Reinforcements.
0-2 Sun Titan: The utility titan is far and away the most common choice of fatty. He's great at bringing back dead BVs, dead Snapcasters, and even Evolving Wilds for a bit of Primeval Titan action. However, his greatest utility is alongside a sideboard package of Phantasmal Image and/or Ratchet Bomb. Most white lists will include a couple of copies in the board.[/SPOILER][SPOILER=Variants section]Variants
The Splash!
Cards that could possibly see play depending on what color you would like to splash in the U/R base.
White
Celestial Purge: Cheap, splashable, instant speed sideboard card that goes a long way aginst RDW and Infect Decks.
Day of Judgment : Abosute best reason to splash white, why so many of us are doing it.
Divine Offering: On here for sake of completion, viable aginst Tezzerat control decks. It's not very popular but if your meta supports it this isnt a bad card.
Feeling of Dread: I personally am not a fan, but it does meet a lot of the requirments we are looking for. Instant, cheap, flash backs, controls the board. Solid card, but it doesnt have enough of an effect unfortuantly.
Gideon Jura : The only planeswalker that even has a chance of being good for us.
Marrow Shards Possible sideboard aginst RDW and the new tokens, it's actually pretty solid if you get in your opening hand. Instant speed so its also a snapcaster target.
Oblivion Ring O-Ring is the 2nd reason many of us are going American, it's solid removal for... whatever. Enchant doesn't synergize well with most of what we are doing, but its still very playable.
Revoke Existence Sorcery speed is pretty bleh, but it is still a snapcaster target that not only removes but EXILS threats. Big bonus aginst Wurmcoil.
Sun Titan Brings back O-Rings and BV's, as well as land and Snapcasters, plus he is a beat stick. Solid.
Timely Reinforcements The holy grail against aggro. Another solid white card that covers our weaknesses.
Grixis Control was a pretty popular deck that saw a lot of play after Chapin did a top 8 with it. We function diffrently then him, but a lot of the same cards are still good for us.
Black
Black Sun's Zenith It's almost a DoJ... but not quite. It CAN be cheaper as a turn 3 play, but only if you are facing RDW that missed bloodthirst and nobles somehow. The fact that it gets shuffled in to our library is both an annoyance and an asset. We can't snap it back whenever we need it, but since it can be drawn again then it almost sorta kinda makes up for it. The biggest drawback is that it doesn't necessarily board wipe, and if it did, you blew all your mana doing it. DoJ does this job better. Kills Thrun.
Curse of Death's Hold Black control at it's finest, kills a lot of relevant creatures before they even make it to the board, and blunts the assault of the ones that can live.
Despise The other colors don't have any turn 1 plays that will be relevant. This one actually might be. Not a bad card for us, just not sure its a great one for us either.
Doom Blade / Go for the Throat: Spot removal! One of the better reasons to go black with your splash. It's a straight 1 for 1 trade that kills... whatever. For cheap!
Geth's Verdict / Tribute to Hunger: The other side of the coin for spot removal, personally Tribute > Geth for color reasons primarly, but when we play a creatureless deck the life gain is pretty relevant
Increasing Ambition Tutor is always amazing, especally when it comes to a quasi combo deck like this. Getting BV's in your hand is jus tone step closer to getting fire in your opponents face.
Life's Finale Straight up better then DoJ and Black Sun Zenith. Kill all the threats, ability to look through your opponents deck AND killing future threats. It's a bit more expsenive, but you definatly get value out of the mana.
Liliana of the Veil Double black for turn 3 will be hard... but she is a great planeswalker. the problem is that we dont have many good ways to defend her. Either her sacrfise ability keeps her alive or she was basically a Tribute to Hunger. Her +1 is nice, we get more value out of our graveyard then our opponent probally does, but dont think we are getting a free pass on it. We WANT to be casting our spells, then doing it again. Her ultimate is solid however. With as many ways as we have to control the board, you can very easily screw your opponent out of anything you want.
Olivia Voldaren The best win condition you could hope for if for some reason BV is not gonna happen. She is amazing and can easily win it all by herself
Surgical Extraction Side this in game 2 once you know how your opponents deck works, then slowly pick it apart. Solid aginst just about everything if used properly. Phrexian mana so it should be in everyones side board, 2 life is abosuletly worth your opponents not having counters and/or combo pieces.
Green
Autumn's Veil: I love this cycle, but for BV this is probally one of our worst ones. Useful only aginst other control decks.
Beast Within REMOVE ALL THE THINGS! For... a beast token. It's viable no matter how much crap I will take about it since late game a 3/3 is always less scary then whatever your opponent just played. Verstile strong card.
Bramblecrush It IS removal. No creatures hurts but... it's not bad. It can fix a lot of other things but... pretty meh.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast Anti-Infect at its finest. If you go light on board wipes and don't mind spending counters to protect her, she isn't bad.
Naturalize It's instant, its cheap and it removes stuff. Sadly though ancient grudge and revoke existance both outshine it.
Tree of Redemption Good against Argo decks, but not much else.
TL: DR
White has the control and removal that both U and R are lacking for us, but lacks flash back for many of its things. However since we shine in the late game, the control can go a long ways.
Black has spot removal, but begs the question of why you would want it when white has MASS removal. It also brings to the table, Olivia who for a fairly small color commitment is a legitimate alternative win condition aside from BV.
Green really only has 2 viable cards for us, Beast Within and the flashback on ancient grudge. The utility that green brings to the table is covered by the other colors, and do so with out taking a baseball to our mana. Honestly, I just don't see anything here that will make it worth the trobule.
III. Variants
So, we've only got one thing left, and it's probably the most defining part of the Burning Vengeance archetype — the splash! There are three main variants:
Grixis Vengeance (URB)
American Vengeance (URW)
Tainted Vengeance (URWB)
American Vengeance
This version plays white to gain access to powerful cards like Day of Judgment and Oblivion Ring, as well as more sideboard flexibility with Timely Reinforcements and Sun Titan packages. It has by far the easiest time dealing with non-creature permanents, thanks to Revoke Existence, Oblivion Ring, and sometimes Celestial Purge or even Ray of Revelation.
More sideboard options: Timely Reinforcements, Celestial Purge, Revoke Existence, Sun Titan
More raw power than Grixis
Cons:
Slightly less consistent mana than Grixis
Can be slower than Grixis
No cheap spot removal
Tainted Vengeance
This version splashes both white and black for a single, crucial card: Lingering Souls. It is surprisingly powerful and versatile, and gives this version a very different feel. Splashing white and black also opens this version up to the most versatile suite of spot removal and sweepers: the best of both worlds.
However, playing 4 colours destabilises the manabase, which is a significant disadvantage, as is the fewer slots able to be allocated to the rest of the deck due to a playset of Lingering Souls. This splash has the most raw power, but the least consistency of mana.
IV. Conclusion
Burning Vengeance takes a lot of practice to play correctly and even more practice to become proficient, but overall it is an incredibly fun deck and will most likely see some new additions with upcoming sets!
---------------- Attempting to Re-Organize.
This guy, http://www.gainmes.com/search/label/IBC , has some really good videos of ISD Block Burning Vengeance. It's the same idea, but slightly different deck. I suggest watching them as they were a huge help to me!
"I love a card like Desperate Ravings because its value isn’t immediately apparent. It’s sort of like Balance in that you need to play it a little bit to see just how good it can be. Here’s the fundamental bit about the random discard: it’s not as random as it seems. It was inspiring to listen to Patrick Chapin talk about the card in the Worlds Deck Tech video this past weekend. He said basically that you cast it if you need lands, you cast it if you need spells, and if you don’t need lands or spells, you don’t even need to cast it!
When you decide to cast Ravings, you’re looking at the rest of your hand. You know whether you’d be fine trading any one of those cards for two more. You’ve made the choice, even if it’s “I could lose three of these four.” Your chances of losing that card are one in six by the time you’ve cast the spell – incredible! I think more people will adopt Desperate Ravings when they play with it more; the in-game feeling of looking at your hand and deciding that you can go +2 cards on what you’re looking at is informative in the way that mathematical explanations often fall short."
With the arrival of DKA, we might start seeing some heavy graveyard hate in the form of Nihil Spellsbomb and the new Grafdigger's Cage. The absolute best way to avoid a game ending experience against one of these cards is DO NOT OVEREXTEND. If you dump your entire hand then some one dumps your yard then you're probably going to lose.
Obviously there is Ancient Grudge or even Crush and while this is certainly a possibility, Nihil Spellbomb would be activated in response and Cage won't allow Grudge to be flashbacked. Personally, I have them in my side as most do.
Then there is Mental Misstep which could see more play since it also deals with a lot of standard's one drops.
1) This deck's pre-DKA lategame is by far the best of any deck in the format, bar none. Between Think Twice, Ravings (or Looting) and Alchemy, you have more card draw than any other deck, Burning Vengeance staples a removal spell onto your card draw. The last thing you need is a better lategame.
2) What makes Burning Vengeance so powerful is that it turns your card draw into removal. You therefore can run a large amount of card draw while still being able to take control with it directly. What Secrets of the Dead does is the opposite: it adds card draw to your card draw.
3) Dropping an enchantment on turn 3, in a lot of cases, is suicide against aggro. But the thing is, playing a Burning Vengeance then allows you to make up that tempo, because when you flashback a Geistflame or something next turn, you can kill two creatures, and so on.
So what, exactly, does casting Secrets of the Dead do on turn 3? Nothing. Why? You have to tap 3 mana for it, and then, to get even a smidgen of advantage out of it, what do you have to do? Tap more mana, to draw cards. Which is precisely what you don't want to do against someone in the process of rearranging your face.
4) So what does Secrets of the Dead do for you in the lategame? It makes your cantrips better...? Why do you need that? The answer: you don't. The object is to win the game, not to utterly and completely rob your opponent of their dignity until they're rolling on the floor crying for mummy. You don't care how many cards you have at the end, as long as you have more answers than they have threats. Control 101.
What Burning Vengeance does is it allows you to use your cantrips to simultaneously draw cards while functioning as answers themselves. This is what lets you run 10-12 draw spells, more than even the hardcore control decks: Because they double as answers.
5) If you draw a single card, what is the probability of drawing an answer? The number of answers ÷ the number of cards left in the deck. If you flash something back with a BV out, what's the chance of getting an answer?
1. Guaranteed.
Secrets of the Dead therefore gives you a higher probability of drawing an answer. Now, how many answers are in your deck? Not that many. Even if you have to flashback TWO spells to kill a 4/4, you are still going to kill it.
As a long time Burning Vengeance player, this card is absolutely abysmal.
1) It costs 4 mana, which means you tap out on turn 4 in a deck full of instants.
2) It does nothing (therefore you screw yourself by playing it over something else).
3) You generally don't start flashing back anything until you have an active BV and actually need to, usually by which time you have about 7 lands.
4) Most flashback costs are cheap - they're all 3 mana except Alchemy and Geistflame.
5) You only run 2-3 Snapcasters, if any.
6) The only flashback cost you need help splashing for is Ancient Grudge, which rather comically costs ONE mana.
7) You can't, unlike Pristine Talisman, play it and use it the same turn to 'save' on mana. (eg. Turn 4 you play Talisman and leave up Mana Leak mana)
8) The Burning Vengeance deck has an amazing lategame to begin with - it needs zero help in this regard.
9) This assists you in no way against aggro, which is the most problematic superarchetype.
10) This doesn't help against Wolf Run at all - vs Wolf Run, you need to be countering their stuff (which means you can't actually cast it)
11) For that matter, this helps you in no way against control either - your gameplan is to get a BV out, at which point you almost inevitably win, because you both get about 200 lands anyway.
tl;dr: The card is awful in Burning Vengeance decks.
I guess I'll get things started with a somewhat recent FNM. This was from my first time playing this deck, I haven't gotten to an FNM lately so I've been testing on cockatrice.
Round 1: Grixis or U/B Control: 1-1-1 (Can't remember)
Managed to win game 1, but game to he stomped on me with Grave Titan. He had game three, but I managed to stretch it through turns for the tie. This could have gone much better, but I was still getting used to the deck.
Round 2: G/R Meh: 2-0
New girl, bad deck. Not much to say. Flashfreezes came in.
Round 3: WRR: 2-1
Hardest matchup of the night. He's one of the better players at a 60+ person FNM.
Game 1: he mull'd to 5 which was great for me. I almost ran out of steam though, but managed to win after dropping 3 Burning Vengeances.
Game 2: I got pretty much crushed. I probably should have mull'd, but I didn't. Meh.
Game 3: Here's where it gets intense. I side in my Delvers for this game and manage to get one on turn 1 and have a ton of counterspells in hand to protect it. Stupidly I forget to attack with it on turn 2. Anywho, I keep attacking and get him down to 8 unfortunately I'm out of counters and he drops a Inferno Titan. I drop a BV and pass, he swings in for 14 putting me to 5. I flashback something to hit him for 2. My 5 to his 6. I have Slagstorm in hand and Think Twice in the yard so I'm able to deal 5. Top deck mode, and I rip the Geistflame for the win. It was beautiful.
Overall it was a great FNM for my first time playing. Definitely could have done better.
The sideboard was thrown together so it's definitely a work in progress.
I am going to try swapping the 2 Devil's Play for 2 Sun Titan. I like the idea of bringing Burning Vengeance and Oblivion Ring back from the graveyard with Sun Titan, and that Sun Titan alone provides an alternate win condition.
Day of Judgment, Oblivion Ring, and Timely Reinforcements are huge in the current meta for me.
Against control I'll bring 2 Negates in for 2 of the Mana Leaks. Or I'll just swap the 2 Feeling of Dread for the 2 Negate.
Between Pristine Talisman and Witchbane Orb, the RDW matchup is pretty easy.
I've had success testing this lately online and I'm looking forward to trying it at FNM tomorrow. Any input is appreciated.
ETA: For Grixis I'm going to try Liliana of the Veil instead of Olivia. Since we want to cast spells from our graveyard, we shouldn't mind Liliana's +1 too much. I may wait for DKA to come out to try a Grixis list, though.
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
Just threw together this list, since I feel like playing FNM this week and haven't played for about 6 months (I was going to get back in after Caw-Blade got axed, but never ended up actually doing so):
1) Yes, there are only 13 spells with flashback in a Burning Vengeance deck (17 if you count Snappers, which I do). That's not a lot, it's true. However, it's worth noting that Runic Repetition + Memory's Journey gives you "infinite" flashback triggers. Neither card is very good, which is why there's only 1 of each, but that's why they're there.
2) This deck doesn't really have "a plan". It kind of cobbles together a win off of nickel-and-diming your opponent's life total until they die. Brimstone Volley-as-Lava Axe is a really good one and is usually part of any winning game plan, but doesn't have to be.
3) I think Whipflare is the best nonwhite sweeper in the format ATM. It kills pretty much everything Slagstorm kills with the exception of being a dead card against Tempered Steel. Against Tempered Steel, they obviously get boarded out in favor of Ancient Grudges.
4) Speaking of Ancient Grudges, a quick sideboarding guide:
Ancient Grudge: Vs. Tempered Steel
Gut Shot: Vs. Red Deck (is that actually a thing anymore?) and Birthing Pod
Flashfreeze: Vs. Wolf Run
Naturalize: Vs. any deck playing Plains
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
@Heathen: Glad to see someone playing the U/R/W list. It seems like you're cutting down on flashback spells quite a bit. I like the idea of possibly playing Sun Titan though.
@Kuiji: I really like you list. (I updated the post) How has Wurmcoil been running for you? Reasons for not running Olivia?
@Heathen: Glad to see someone playing the U/R/W list. It seems like you're cutting down on flashback spells quite a bit. I like the idea of possibly playing Sun Titan though.
@Kuiji: I really like you list. (I updated the post) How has Wurmcoil been running for you? Reasons for not running Olivia?
Wurmcoil is just great, it is the perfect finisher against most of the decks.
I don't really like Olivia because she is really mana intensive for me, and i prefer using mana with Flashback spells and killing my opponent with Vengeance than trying to kill/steal something with her, also if against aggro and i manage to survive Wurmcoil will just end the game, while Olivia doesn't work the same most of the times.
@Heathen: Glad to see someone playing the U/R/W list. It seems like you're cutting down on flashback spells quite a bit. I like the idea of possibly playing Sun Titan though.
Snapcaster helps make up for some of the non-flashback spells. I've flashed back Day of Judgment using Snapcaster MANY times (much to the opponent's chagrin). Without getting into new card discussion, let's just say I foresee being able to add more flashback spells with the release of DKA. In the meantime, though, being able to control and stabilize the board in the early and mid game is what's allowed me to finish it off in the late game, even if that means having less flashback spells.
Last night I played a UW control deck on Cockatrice and we both had a lot of counters, Oblivion Rings, and Pristine Talismans, and by the late game were both over 20 life. Once I was able to exhaust his resources with my counters, Days, Snapcasters, etc, I was able to get multiple Vengeances in the field at once and finish him off relatively quickly (I think the final blow was when I flashed back Feeling of Dread to tap my own creature, a Snapcaster, because it was the only creature on the field).
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
DoJ is one of the main reasons I was looking at white, but do you have any problems dealing with really fast aggro? (Like decks that win before you get doj mana) also how has feeling of dread been?
DoJ is one of the main reasons I was looking at white, but do you have any problems dealing with really fast aggro? (Like decks that win before you get doj mana) also how has feeling of dread been?
I think that W is really strong in the current meta. I've been thinking on dropping one color from my Grixis list to add W instead, sometimes Slagstorm isn't enough, and that is when i need DoJ. Also Oblivion Ring is pretty good at saving our asses and Sun Titan is just awesome in this deck.
However i'm not sure which color to drop, probably B
Here is an Esper list that i just made based on my grixis:
I think black could be dropped all together from that list. Shimmering Grotto seems like enough to fuel late game Forbidden Alchemy(s). I'm thinking maybe we could add a heavier green splash with possible Grudges main. I didn't think this was the best idea until the other day when I realized Wurmcoils, Batterskulls, and SoWaP all have a heavy presence and gain life which really hurts us. Basically I've been looking into 4cc Burning Vengeance.
Since we're playing white I really think Feeling of Dread deserves a spot.
How has Talisman been? I've kind of stayed away from it because I've been trying to cut down on non-flashback cards. Another thing, is it necessary if you're running Timely?
I would simply like to caution everyone who's playing a full-on 3-color list with double-colored spells in each color (e.g. Day of Judgment, Dissipate, and Devil's Play) as to why Solar Flare failed. The mana fixing in Standard isn't good enough to support that and you're going to end up dying to your own manabase a lot more than you'd like.
Also, playing a 2-of Sun Titan is a really bad idea. The reason you play a set of Snapcasters in a deck with no other creatures is because once you resolve Snapcaster, you're already ahead. If they then use a removal spell on Snapcaster, it doesn't matter. On the other hand, if they blow up a Sun Titan, that's 6 mana you spent on your own main phase (and not your opponent's end step), so your opponent very well can tempo-win you by doing that.
If you're playing white, Feeling of Dread is the nut high. Again, though, that 3-color thing is a pain.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
While I don't completely agree with you on playing 3-4 colors, I do agree that Sun Titan might cause problems. Same with O-ring as you don't really want to be casting anything on your turn. I'm going to edit the deck I just posted.
I'm going to try and get the cards I need for that deck by tomorrow and hopefully I can give it a try at FNM. At the very least it looks like fun.
I think black could be dropped all together from that list. Shimmering Grotto seems like enough to fuel late game Forbidden Alchemy(s). I'm thinking maybe we could add a heavier green splash with possible Grudges main. I didn't think this was the best idea until the other day when I realized Wurmcoils, Batterskulls, and SoWaP all have a heavy presence and gain life which really hurts us. Basically I've been looking into 4cc Burning Vengeance.
Since we're playing white I really think Feeling of Dread deserves a spot.
How has Talisman been? I've kind of stayed away from it because I've been trying to cut down on non-flashback cards. Another thing, is it necessary if you're running Timely?
The life problem is the main reason why i'm running both Wurmcoil Engine and Pristine Talisman in my Grixis list, and i dare to say that they are awesome together.
I'm not sure if it is need when we are using Timely reinforcements, but it is pretty good, 1 extra mana is something that i feel that helps a lot. You can cast it on 5th turn and still have mana up for a leak or something else and you will get +1 life for sure, which is "pretty slow" in a way, but it becomes relevant the more you use it.
I do like your list, seems better than the idea i had, what about something like this:
Both Grixis, Esper and even 4cc have success so I think 3 colors is completely viable. I'm definitely testing this tomorrow so I'll see how well Timely works for life-gain or if I need more. I agree though that life-gain helps this deck tremendously because it often takes a little while to stabilize against aggro.
Both Grixis, Esper and even 4cc have success so I think 3 colors is completely viable. I'm definitely testing this tomorrow so I'll see how well Timely works for life-gain or if I need more. I agree though that life-gain helps this deck tremendously because it often takes a little while to stabilize against aggro.
I feel like white helps against aggro so much.
Yup, why it shouldn't be viable anyways.
True, if we are running white then we must do what white does best, lifegain, which as you said helps a lot in this deck, that's the why i combined what i think are the top 3 ways to get some life in this deck, and they' re all different ways. Creature, Sorcery and Artifact.
I think black could be dropped all together from that list. Shimmering Grotto seems like enough to fuel late game Forbidden Alchemy(s). I'm thinking maybe we could add a heavier green splash with possible Grudges main. I didn't think this was the best idea until the other day when I realized Wurmcoils, Batterskulls, and SoWaP all have a heavy presence and gain life which really hurts us. Basically I've been looking into 4cc Burning Vengeance.
I've been thinking that when I need to flashback Ancient Grudge I'll use Shimmering Grotto for the green mana. And you're right that Grotto is enough to get the one black mana late game to flashback Alchemy.
Since we're playing white I really think Feeling of Dread deserves a spot.
Feeling of Dread has been a huge card for me. Delaying your opponent's attacks a turn or two can mean the difference between winning and losing, and if nothing else it's cheap to flashback. It may be pretty much dead against creature-light decks, but how many of those are there in the current meta?
How has Talisman been? I've kind of stayed away from it because I've been trying to cut down on non-flashback cards. Another thing, is it necessary if you're running Timely?
I'm a big fan of Talisman right now. Obviously you don't play it on turn 3. I'm basically never unhappy to see it, and over the course of a game the life you get from it can buy you enough time to win.
Until there are more flashback spells I want to use, I'm dropping Desperate Ravings for Think Twice completely. I'm not saying Desperate Ravings is bad, but that it's often been a dead card for me because I have cards in hand I need for later on (Snapcaster, Oblivion Ring, etc). While Ravings may statistically be better, the fact is that if I have the mana available I can cast Think Twice with no potential for losing a good card. If more good flashback spells are released, though, I may switch back to Ravings (because I won't be as worried about dumping something in the graveyard).
As for Sun Titan, I'm still on the fence. While I think we do need a backup win condition, the fact is there aren't a lot of targets for his ability in this deck. Maybe Wurmcoil Engine is a better choice. I'm going to try Sun Titan at FNM tonight though and see how it goes.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
See the best part about Desperate Ravings is YOU DON'T NEED TO CAST IT! I'm not going to sugar coat this. If you aren't playing Desperate Ravings in a Burning Vengeance deck, you aren't playing it correctly. I'm not even sure why I have it down to 3 in the list I posted. It should probably be +1 Ravings, -1 Dread.
On a unrelated note. What are people's thoughts on the mana base in general? U/R is pretty easy, but both Grixis and U/R/W have the option to play Scars lands? Personally, I wouldn't playing them in U/R/W because they come into play tapped after t3, but in a heavy black Grixis list they seem necessary.
See the best part about Desperate Ravings is YOU DON'T NEED TO CAST IT! I'm not going to sugar coat this. If you aren't playing Desperate Ravings in a Burning Vengeance deck, you aren't playing it correctly.
I'm not going to argue whether Ravings is necessary, whether it's strictly better than Think Twice in this deck, etc, because I don't feel I'm qualified make that kind of judgment.
But here's the situation I find myself in all too often: it's the end of my opponent's turn and I have 3 mana available. In my hand is a Ravings, an O Ring, a Snapcaster, a Day of Judgment, and a relevant land. In my graveyard is a Mana Leak. Do I cast Ravings now? I personally haven't been because I want to keep pretty much every card I have in hand (other than Ravings, of course, because I might cast it now). So I move on to my turn and draw. If the Ravings were a Think Twice though, I'd certainly cast it, draw a card, and then move on to my turn and draw on my draw step. Think Twice got me a little bit further into my deck with no risk of losing the valuable cards in my hand. With Ravings I'm finding that it's often dead because I have valuable cards in hand, though I may want more (like in the above example, I want to keep all my cards in hand, but I'd love to draw to a Dissipate or BV).
DKA may change my outlook on Ravings, but for now I'd rather stick with Think Twice and be able to draw without worrying about losing a good card from my hand.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
See the best part about Desperate Ravings is YOU DON'T NEED TO CAST IT! I'm not going to sugar coat this. If you aren't playing Desperate Ravings in a Burning Vengeance deck, you aren't playing it correctly. I'm not even sure why I have it down to 3 in the list I posted. It should probably be +1 Ravings, -1 Dread.
On a unrelated note. What are people's thoughts on the mana base in general? U/R is pretty easy, but both Grixis and U/R/W have the option to play Scars lands? Personally, I wouldn't playing them in U/R/W because they come into play tapped after t3, but in a heavy black Grixis list they seem necessary.
Same, that's the why i don't use them in my lists, Scar lands seems ok, but not in this deck. Depends on the build tho.
Also, you're correct about Desperate Ravings, i use only 3x of them because i needed some space for Pristine Talisman, otherwise i would play 4x of them.
I'm not going to argue whether Ravings is necessary, whether it's strictly better than Think Twice in this deck, etc, because I don't feel I'm qualified make that kind of judgment.
But here's the situation I find myself in all too often: it's the end of my opponent's turn and I have 3 mana available. In my hand is a Ravings, an O Ring, a Snapcaster, a Day of Judgment, and a relevant land. In my graveyard is a Mana Leak. Do I cast Ravings now? I personally haven't been because I want to keep pretty much every card I have in hand (other than Ravings, of course, because I might cast it now). So I move on to my turn and draw. If the Ravings were a Think Twice though, I'd certainly cast it, draw a card, and then move on to my turn and draw on my draw step. Think Twice got me a little bit further into my deck with no risk of losing the valuable cards in my hand. With Ravings I'm finding that it's often dead because I have valuable cards in hand, though I may want more (like in the above example, I want to keep all my cards in hand, but I'd love to draw to a Dissipate).
DKA may change my outlook on Ravings, but for now I'd rather stick with Think Twice and be able to draw without worrying about losing a good card from my hand.
Maybe it is because your list is the list with less Flashback spells atm. It depends on the build, i wouldn't want to discard an Oblivion Ring either.
Same, that's the why i don't use them in my lists, Scar lands seems ok, but not in this deck. Depends on the build tho.
I use some Scars lands because I want to ensure I have mana available for Mana Leak/Dissipate in the first few turns. After that if a land comes in tapped it hasn't been a huge problem for me.
Maybe it is because your list is the list with less Flashback spells atm. It depends on the build, i wouldn't want to discard an Oblivion Ring either.
Excellent point about mine having less flashback spells. When I get more I want to include, I'll certainly be more inclined to run Ravings.
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Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
I use some Scars lands because I want to ensure I have mana available for Mana Leak/Dissipate in the first few turns. After that if a land comes in tapped it hasn't been a huge problem for me.
Excellent point about mine having less flashback spells. When I get more I want to include, I'll certainly be more inclined to run Ravings.
I see, i haven't had any problem with land so far, so thats the why i don't use Scar lands.
Yeah thats probably why Ravings seems like a dead card for you most of the time, it has been a great for me, but probably because of the same reason. I do hate to discard a spell that was relevant at the time, but if it has flashback or i have a Snapcaster in hand then i don't really care, otherwise it sucks
I'm not going to argue whether Ravings is necessary, whether it's strictly better than Think Twice in this deck, etc, because I don't feel I'm qualified make that kind of judgment.
But here's the situation I find myself in all too often: it's the end of my opponent's turn and I have 3 mana available. In my hand is a Ravings, an O Ring, a Snapcaster, a Day of Judgment, and a relevant land. In my graveyard is a Mana Leak. Do I cast Ravings now? I personally haven't been because I want to keep pretty much every card I have in hand (other than Ravings, of course, because I might cast it now). So I move on to my turn and draw. If the Ravings were a Think Twice though, I'd certainly cast it, draw a card, and then move on to my turn and draw on my draw step. Think Twice got me a little bit further into my deck with no risk of losing the valuable cards in my hand. With Ravings I'm finding that it's often dead because I have valuable cards in hand, though I may want more (like in the above example, I want to keep all my cards in hand, but I'd love to draw to a Dissipate or BV).
DKA may change my outlook on Ravings, but for now I'd rather stick with Think Twice and be able to draw without worrying about losing a good card from my hand.
No, you don't cast Ravings, but you can't compare it to Think Twice because you should be playing both of them.
Here's some info on ravings:
"I love a card like Desperate Ravings because its value isn’t immediately apparent. It’s sort of like Balance in that you need to play it a little bit to see just how good it can be. Here’s the fundamental bit about the random discard: it’s not as random as it seems. It was inspiring to listen to Patrick Chapin talk about the card in the Worlds Deck Tech video this past weekend. He said basically that you cast it if you need lands, you cast it if you need spells, and if you don’t need lands or spells, you don’t even need to cast it!
When you decide to cast Ravings, you’re looking at the rest of your hand. You know whether you’d be fine trading any one of those cards for two more. You’ve made the choice, even if it’s “I could lose three of these four.” Your chances of losing that card are one in six by the time you’ve cast the spell – incredible! I think more people will adopt Desperate Ravings when they play with it more; the in-game feeling of looking at your hand and deciding that you can go +2 cards on what you’re looking at is informative in the way that mathematical explanations often fall short."
Is a pauper version of the deck viable? Minus the Snapcasters and loads of dual lands, can this deck succeed as a straight up UR deck?
I would think so. Most of the cards in the deck are uncommon and common, so I would imagine you could use Shimmering Grottoes in place of dual lands. But 4 Snapcasters seems to be a staple. Can this deck succeed without them? Or are they so vital to the workings of this deck, that trying to play without them is a waste of time?
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I. Introduction
What is Burning Vengeance?
Burning Vengeance is a deck based around it's namesake card, Burning Vengeance. Basically the deck plays like counterburn, but it has much stronger late game as you gain incremental advantage every time you cast something from your graveyard (flashback) with Burning Vengeance on the field.
For new players, when playing this deck you will hardly ever be playing cards on your own turn. You will want to keep mana open for counterspells and if you don't counter anything you can play a draw spell at the end of your opponents turn. Usually you don't want to run Burning Vengeance out early because it will most likely cause you to tap out early game when you shouldn't be. I have found "sweepers" like Day of Judgment and Slagstorm very useful as they give us the time needed to stabilize. Damage should be directed at your opponents face 90% of the time. When I say this, I mean your main priority is removal of life total, and not that you should just ignore creature threats that would kill you. I'll say this again, Burning Vengeance is not Burning Vengeance, it is counterburn and it should be played that way.
II. The Deck
Core Cards
This is essentially the skeleton of the deck. You want to be running the following as a minimum in every single BV build.
The Win Conditions:
4Burning Vengeance: This is the reason you're playing this deck. When you're playing 15+ flashback spells, all of which generate card advantage on their own, it really becomes quite an engine. When you get to start picking off aggro hordes left and right, burning Titans and Delvers alike, and then get to turn around and kill them with it? Sign me up.
It's important to note that the deck does not rely on the card. While it's great when you draw it, and you basically win if you untap with multiples, it's not the end of the world when you don't draw it, or they Oblivion Ring it.
1-2 Devil's Play: Very important to the deck, as it's basically our finisher. You can't reliably expect to kill them with a single BV without assistance (although the deck certainly is capable), and this is that assistance. "Oh, you're at 10 life? I win."
Devil's Play also excels in its versatility. It's good at randomly killing the occasional Titan, or Delver of Secrets on turn 2. There's a reason we all play the card: It's just good, pure and simple. Play 2 copies unless you have an optional creature-based win condition alongside it.
Card Draw:
These are the lifeblood of the deck. They get you the cards you need and when played from the graveyard they win you the game. They also let you play 24 lands in a deck that wants the land drops of a 27 land deck. You should be playing between 9 and 13 cards from here, but 11 is most common.
4 Think Twice: Standard blue card draw, plus flashback. Don't run less than 4, no matter how tempting. It's good in every single situation, it's never dead, and it's great playing draw go. 4-of staple.
2-4 Desperate Ravings: This card is just amazing. Need land? Play Ravings. Need spells? Play Ravings. And if you don't need either, then you get to save it for later! Instant speed, card advantage, digs deeper than Think Twice. Play 2-4 copies, no questions asked.
0-2 Faithless Looting: One of the more hyped cards of the set, Looting is, astonishingly, not very good. The reason stems from its inherent card disadvantage.
Now, you might be quick to point out that discarding a flashback card means it's not card disadvantage. However, if you think about it, all of our flashback cards have this amazing inbuilt mechanism to get themselves in the graveyard — called casting it — and most importantly, they replace themselves while doing so. If you cast two copies of Think Twice, you replace both of them. If you cast Looting and discard those Think Twices, you're suddenly down on cards.
So, all Looting actually does is save you mana. And that, when playing a draw-go counterburn deck focused around both surviving to turn 10 and cheap draw spells, is not a great idea.
0-3 Forbidden Alchemy: Alchemy is simply amazing at digging. While the card is pretty optional in current lists, nothing else digs like it. For three mana, you get great Impulse-like card selection, but with the enormous upside of discarding the rest. This means you can take a sweeper, counterspell or BV, and get a free Think Twice or Ravings dumped for you. And to top it all off, you get to do it again!
The flashback can easily be achieved in several ways, if you aren't already playing Grixis colours. Shimmering Grotto is a very common splash land in builds playing a fourth or fifth colour, and this gives you Alchemy's flashback without any extra effort. It's also common to run 1-2 black dual lands, just to increase your black count. Or in a pinch, Snapcaster can flash Alchemy back on the cheap, and dodge the black requirement.
0-1Blue Sun's Zenith: Often run as a singleton, this card is simply raw card drawing at its best. While it's pretty bad before turn 7, casting this just once gives you a really huge amount of lategame gas. Playing it for X=4 is incredibly strong, and for any more just flat-out wins you the game. It's earned its spot, but the draw suite is personal preference.
Counterspells:
You're playing blue, so you're playing counterspells. No questions asked. Undoubtedly one of the strengths of the deck, and augmented beautifully by Snapcaster Mage. Run 6-8 in most builds.
4 Mana Leak: Obvious card is obvious. Automatic 4-of staple.
2-4 Dissipate: Dissipate is actually an amazing card in control. It's great from the midge forward, but is basically your only true hard counterspell. It's most commonly run as 2 copies in the main, with another 1 or 2 in the board. Coming back off Snapcaster is a great advantage too, as is the ability to truly counter Lingering Souls.
0-2 Negate: This is another option as a 1-2 of. It's reasonably good against the metagame. While it won't ever be a dead card, there are plenty of situations in which you need to counter a creature, and so any more than 1-2 main is asking a lot. Normally only run as a supplement to 3 Dissipate, as an 8th counter over the 4th Dissipate.
Sweepers:
So, do you like not dying? I do. You want to live to see turn 5? Play 4-6 sweepers maindeck. The removal suite is where the colour variants start to differ, and you can see some of the reasons to be playing black, white or green.
2-4 Slagstorm: The core sweeper in the deck. This is basically supplemented by the other sweepers in the deck. It's pretty fantastic in the current format, but make sure your manabase can support the RR reliably on turn 3.
0-3 Day of Judgment: Best sweeper in the format, but you'll have to splash white if you want it.
0-2 Blasphemous Act: A sweeper generally used as a supplement in budget or Grixis versions, it is also a reasonable card in its own right, as it's able to easily kill Titans and Dungrove Elders, unlike most of our other sweepers. However, it's almost strictly inferior to Day of Judgment if you're able to run it.
0-2 Whipflare: Great against Tokens and Delver decks, but dead against Tempered Steel, so watch out when playing it. Usually played as the lower half of a split with Slagstorm.
0-2 Black Sun's Zenith: The black sweeper. Slow, clunky, and requires double black. The shuffling is more a curse than a blessing, because you can't even Snapcaster it back (which happens more often than you'd think).
There are upsides however. It kills Thrun, which is a really big reason to be playing it, especially when people play a singleton to fetch with Green Sun's Zenith. It also dodges cards like Mutagenic Growth. At least consider it, if you're playing the black build.
Spot Removal
0-2 Tribute to Hunger: A fantastic spell in any black version, Tribute serves as both an excellent maindeck out to Geist of Saint Traft, Thrun, and Dungrove Elder, but also as a nice lifegain buffer against quick aggressive starts. Most often seen as a singleton alongside a Doom Blade suite in Grixis.
0-2 Geistflame: This used to be an auto 3-4 of, back when x/1 creatures were running amok in standard. However, owing to heavy use of Gut Shot, the format has evolved and Geistflame just isn't good enough anymore. While some budget versions run a few to increase their flashback count, you're better off running Doom Blade effects or Galvanic Blast.
0-2 Galvanic Blast: A nice spot removal spell, Galvanic Blast was used for a while just after Spirit Delver became all the rage. The interaction with Snapcaster Mage makes it amazing, and the combo is great at burning people for 6-10 out of nowhere (BV or two in play, double Blast, untap and swing). It's still nice to be able to kill most weenies in the format for a single mana, and at instant speed, but it's not really necessary. Doom Blade effects or Oblivion Rings will serve you better as your main removal, but consider it if you have a few slots to spare.
0-3 Doom Blade/Go for the Throat: Used interchangeably, these are nice spot removal options to round out the list. Tried and tested, and great with Snapcaster. Quite a good reason to be playing black, and easily splashable.
0-3 Oblivion Ring: This is the number 2 reason to be in white, behind Day of Judgment. "O-ring" is pure gold in essentially every situation — it deals with so many threats that you can't actually kill. Undying? No sweat. Shrine of Burning Rage? Gone without a trace. Planeswalkers got you down? Not anymore. Honour of the Pure? Dead, end of story.
Creatures
One of Burning Vengeance's strengths is that it's essentially creatureless game 1. That said, there are a few creatures which can provide value when played in small numbers, as well as the omnipresent Snapcaster Mage.
3-4 Snapcaster Mage: This card is a must for a competitive BV deck. It's a counterspell, it's a Doom Blade and it's a sweeper, all in one card. It means you get to cheat on card numbers, and it means you gain card advantage. There's a reason he demands his hefty pricetag, and it's certainly worth it.
The reason one might play 3 copies is because we don't have that many targets in the deck. Because targeting a sweeper isn't great value and doesn't happen that often, his only other targets are counters, plus any Doom Blades/Tragic Slips that you run. If you have at least 9-10 non-sweeper targets without flashback already, then play the full set; but with 8 or less you'd be best off with 3.
0-2 Grave Titan: Occasionally run in the sideboard or as a single in the main in Grixis versions, usually for control matchups. It's the best finisher from an 'answer me or die' perspective, but it offers no other utility, and the double black can be a pain, so we tend not to use it.
0-2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite: Probably the most effective pseudo-titan, Elesh Norn is able to shut down a surprisingly wide variety of decks — everything from Wolf Run and Delver to UW Humans and Tempered Steel. Often it doesn't even have to stick to be effective as a boardwipe, but bringing it in as a nice pasteboard surprise means your opponent will (hopefully) now have no removal, and will promptly get destroyed.
0-2 Wurmcoil Engine: A rare choice, Wurmcoil Engine is a potential candidate for non-white decks having issues with quick aggro starts. Windmill-slamming him on turn 6 is a great way to turn the tables on aggro, and his removal resistance makes him a reasonable choice for the maindeck. However, he's not very commonly played due to his lack of utility, and white decks are probably better off with Timely Reinforcements.
0-2 Sun Titan: The utility titan is far and away the most common choice of fatty. He's great at bringing back dead BVs, dead Snapcasters, and even Evolving Wilds for a bit of Primeval Titan action. However, his greatest utility is alongside a sideboard package of Phantasmal Image and/or Ratchet Bomb. Most white lists will include a couple of copies in the board.[/SPOILER][SPOILER=Variants section]Variants
The Splash!
Cards that could possibly see play depending on what color you would like to splash in the U/R base.
White
Celestial Purge: Cheap, splashable, instant speed sideboard card that goes a long way aginst RDW and Infect Decks.
Day of Judgment : Abosute best reason to splash white, why so many of us are doing it.
Divine Offering: On here for sake of completion, viable aginst Tezzerat control decks. It's not very popular but if your meta supports it this isnt a bad card.
Feeling of Dread: I personally am not a fan, but it does meet a lot of the requirments we are looking for. Instant, cheap, flash backs, controls the board. Solid card, but it doesnt have enough of an effect unfortuantly.
Gideon Jura : The only planeswalker that even has a chance of being good for us.
Marrow Shards Possible sideboard aginst RDW and the new tokens, it's actually pretty solid if you get in your opening hand. Instant speed so its also a snapcaster target.
Oblivion Ring O-Ring is the 2nd reason many of us are going American, it's solid removal for... whatever. Enchant doesn't synergize well with most of what we are doing, but its still very playable.
Revoke Existence Sorcery speed is pretty bleh, but it is still a snapcaster target that not only removes but EXILS threats. Big bonus aginst Wurmcoil.
Sun Titan Brings back O-Rings and BV's, as well as land and Snapcasters, plus he is a beat stick. Solid.
Timely Reinforcements The holy grail against aggro. Another solid white card that covers our weaknesses.
Grixis Control was a pretty popular deck that saw a lot of play after Chapin did a top 8 with it. We function diffrently then him, but a lot of the same cards are still good for us.
Black
Black Sun's Zenith It's almost a DoJ... but not quite. It CAN be cheaper as a turn 3 play, but only if you are facing RDW that missed bloodthirst and nobles somehow. The fact that it gets shuffled in to our library is both an annoyance and an asset. We can't snap it back whenever we need it, but since it can be drawn again then it almost sorta kinda makes up for it. The biggest drawback is that it doesn't necessarily board wipe, and if it did, you blew all your mana doing it. DoJ does this job better. Kills Thrun.
Curse of Death's Hold Black control at it's finest, kills a lot of relevant creatures before they even make it to the board, and blunts the assault of the ones that can live.
Despise The other colors don't have any turn 1 plays that will be relevant. This one actually might be. Not a bad card for us, just not sure its a great one for us either.
Doom Blade / Go for the Throat: Spot removal! One of the better reasons to go black with your splash. It's a straight 1 for 1 trade that kills... whatever. For cheap!
Geth's Verdict / Tribute to Hunger: The other side of the coin for spot removal, personally Tribute > Geth for color reasons primarly, but when we play a creatureless deck the life gain is pretty relevant
Increasing Ambition Tutor is always amazing, especally when it comes to a quasi combo deck like this. Getting BV's in your hand is jus tone step closer to getting fire in your opponents face.
Life's Finale Straight up better then DoJ and Black Sun Zenith. Kill all the threats, ability to look through your opponents deck AND killing future threats. It's a bit more expsenive, but you definatly get value out of the mana.
Liliana of the Veil Double black for turn 3 will be hard... but she is a great planeswalker. the problem is that we dont have many good ways to defend her. Either her sacrfise ability keeps her alive or she was basically a Tribute to Hunger. Her +1 is nice, we get more value out of our graveyard then our opponent probally does, but dont think we are getting a free pass on it. We WANT to be casting our spells, then doing it again. Her ultimate is solid however. With as many ways as we have to control the board, you can very easily screw your opponent out of anything you want.
Olivia Voldaren The best win condition you could hope for if for some reason BV is not gonna happen. She is amazing and can easily win it all by herself
Surgical Extraction Side this in game 2 once you know how your opponents deck works, then slowly pick it apart. Solid aginst just about everything if used properly. Phrexian mana so it should be in everyones side board, 2 life is abosuletly worth your opponents not having counters and/or combo pieces.
Green
Autumn's Veil: I love this cycle, but for BV this is probally one of our worst ones. Useful only aginst other control decks.
Beast Within REMOVE ALL THE THINGS! For... a beast token. It's viable no matter how much crap I will take about it since late game a 3/3 is always less scary then whatever your opponent just played. Verstile strong card.
Bramblecrush It IS removal. No creatures hurts but... it's not bad. It can fix a lot of other things but... pretty meh.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast Anti-Infect at its finest. If you go light on board wipes and don't mind spending counters to protect her, she isn't bad.
Naturalize It's instant, its cheap and it removes stuff. Sadly though ancient grudge and revoke existance both outshine it.
Tree of Redemption Good against Argo decks, but not much else.
TL: DR
White has the control and removal that both U and R are lacking for us, but lacks flash back for many of its things. However since we shine in the late game, the control can go a long ways.
Black has spot removal, but begs the question of why you would want it when white has MASS removal. It also brings to the table, Olivia who for a fairly small color commitment is a legitimate alternative win condition aside from BV.
Green really only has 2 viable cards for us, Beast Within and the flashback on ancient grudge. The utility that green brings to the table is covered by the other colors, and do so with out taking a baseball to our mana. Honestly, I just don't see anything here that will make it worth the trobule.
III. Variants
So, we've only got one thing left, and it's probably the most defining part of the Burning Vengeance archetype — the splash! There are three main variants:
Grixis Vengeance (URB)
American Vengeance (URW)
Tainted Vengeance (URWB)
Grixis Vengeance
The easiest and most consistent splash, Grixis lets us play black for additional spot removal in the form of Doom Blade (and Go for the Throat), as well as an additional sweeper and a maindeck out to hexproof.
2 Devil's Play
3 Mana Leak
3 Dissipate
3 Snapcaster mage
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Whipflare
1 Life's Finale
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Falls
7 Island
5 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Crush
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Whipflare
2 Flashfreeze
1 Tribute to Hunger
2 Surgical Extraction
Pros:
Cons:
American Vengeance
This version plays white to gain access to powerful cards like Day of Judgment and Oblivion Ring, as well as more sideboard flexibility with Timely Reinforcements and Sun Titan packages. It has by far the easiest time dealing with non-creature permanents, thanks to Revoke Existence, Oblivion Ring, and sometimes Celestial Purge or even Ray of Revelation.
2 Devil's Play
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Mana Leak
3 Dissipate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Day of Judgment
3 Slagstorm
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Clifftop Retreat
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
5 Island
3 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Flashfreeze
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sun Titan
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Slagstorm
1 Dissipate
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Revoke Existence
Pros:
Cons:
Tainted Vengeance
This version splashes both white and black for a single, crucial card: Lingering Souls. It is surprisingly powerful and versatile, and gives this version a very different feel. Splashing white and black also opens this version up to the most versatile suite of spot removal and sweepers: the best of both worlds.
However, playing 4 colours destabilises the manabase, which is a significant disadvantage, as is the fewer slots able to be allocated to the rest of the deck due to a playset of Lingering Souls. This splash has the most raw power, but the least consistency of mana.
4 Lingering Souls
2 Devil's Play
4 Mana Leak
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Slagstorm
2 Day of Judgment
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Evolving Wilds
5 Island
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Dissipate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Rachet Bomb
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Flashfreeze
1 Slagstorm
1 Tribute to Hunger
1 Revoke Existence
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Pros:
Cons:
IV. Conclusion
Burning Vengeance takes a lot of practice to play correctly and even more practice to become proficient, but overall it is an incredibly fun deck and will most likely see some new additions with upcoming sets!
----------------
Attempting to Re-Organize.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
This guy, http://www.gainmes.com/search/label/IBC , has some really good videos of ISD Block Burning Vengeance. It's the same idea, but slightly different deck. I suggest watching them as they were a huge help to me!
Why Desperate Ravings is good.
When you decide to cast Ravings, you’re looking at the rest of your hand. You know whether you’d be fine trading any one of those cards for two more. You’ve made the choice, even if it’s “I could lose three of these four.” Your chances of losing that card are one in six by the time you’ve cast the spell – incredible! I think more people will adopt Desperate Ravings when they play with it more; the in-game feeling of looking at your hand and deciding that you can go +2 cards on what you’re looking at is informative in the way that mathematical explanations often fall short."
Here's the video of Chapin's deck tech at worlds where he talks about ravings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R8FLpMTyIc
---------
How to deal with graveyard hate?
Obviously there is Ancient Grudge or even Crush and while this is certainly a possibility, Nihil Spellbomb would be activated in response and Cage won't allow Grudge to be flashbacked. Personally, I have them in my side as most do.
Then there is Mental Misstep which could see more play since it also deals with a lot of standard's one drops.
2) What makes Burning Vengeance so powerful is that it turns your card draw into removal. You therefore can run a large amount of card draw while still being able to take control with it directly. What Secrets of the Dead does is the opposite: it adds card draw to your card draw.
3) Dropping an enchantment on turn 3, in a lot of cases, is suicide against aggro. But the thing is, playing a Burning Vengeance then allows you to make up that tempo, because when you flashback a Geistflame or something next turn, you can kill two creatures, and so on.
So what, exactly, does casting Secrets of the Dead do on turn 3? Nothing. Why? You have to tap 3 mana for it, and then, to get even a smidgen of advantage out of it, what do you have to do? Tap more mana, to draw cards. Which is precisely what you don't want to do against someone in the process of rearranging your face.
4) So what does Secrets of the Dead do for you in the lategame? It makes your cantrips better...? Why do you need that? The answer: you don't. The object is to win the game, not to utterly and completely rob your opponent of their dignity until they're rolling on the floor crying for mummy. You don't care how many cards you have at the end, as long as you have more answers than they have threats. Control 101.
What Burning Vengeance does is it allows you to use your cantrips to simultaneously draw cards while functioning as answers themselves. This is what lets you run 10-12 draw spells, more than even the hardcore control decks: Because they double as answers.
5) If you draw a single card, what is the probability of drawing an answer? The number of answers ÷ the number of cards left in the deck. If you flash something back with a BV out, what's the chance of getting an answer?
1. Guaranteed.
Secrets of the Dead therefore gives you a higher probability of drawing an answer. Now, how many answers are in your deck? Not that many. Even if you have to flashback TWO spells to kill a 4/4, you are still going to kill it.
1) It costs 4 mana, which means you tap out on turn 4 in a deck full of instants.
2) It does nothing (therefore you screw yourself by playing it over something else).
3) You generally don't start flashing back anything until you have an active BV and actually need to, usually by which time you have about 7 lands.
4) Most flashback costs are cheap - they're all 3 mana except Alchemy and Geistflame.
5) You only run 2-3 Snapcasters, if any.
6) The only flashback cost you need help splashing for is Ancient Grudge, which rather comically costs ONE mana.
7) You can't, unlike Pristine Talisman, play it and use it the same turn to 'save' on mana. (eg. Turn 4 you play Talisman and leave up Mana Leak mana)
8) The Burning Vengeance deck has an amazing lategame to begin with - it needs zero help in this regard.
9) This assists you in no way against aggro, which is the most problematic superarchetype.
10) This doesn't help against Wolf Run at all - vs Wolf Run, you need to be countering their stuff (which means you can't actually cast it)
11) For that matter, this helps you in no way against control either - your gameplan is to get a BV out, at which point you almost inevitably win, because you both get about 200 lands anyway.
tl;dr: The card is awful in Burning Vengeance decks.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Round 1: Grixis or U/B Control: 1-1-1 (Can't remember)
Managed to win game 1, but game to he stomped on me with Grave Titan. He had game three, but I managed to stretch it through turns for the tie. This could have gone much better, but I was still getting used to the deck.
Round 2: G/R Meh: 2-0
New girl, bad deck. Not much to say. Flashfreezes came in.
Round 3: WRR: 2-1
Hardest matchup of the night. He's one of the better players at a 60+ person FNM.
Game 1: he mull'd to 5 which was great for me. I almost ran out of steam though, but managed to win after dropping 3 Burning Vengeances.
Game 2: I got pretty much crushed. I probably should have mull'd, but I didn't. Meh.
Game 3: Here's where it gets intense. I side in my Delvers for this game and manage to get one on turn 1 and have a ton of counterspells in hand to protect it. Stupidly I forget to attack with it on turn 2. Anywho, I keep attacking and get him down to 8 unfortunately I'm out of counters and he drops a Inferno Titan. I drop a BV and pass, he swings in for 14 putting me to 5. I flashback something to hit him for 2. My 5 to his 6. I have Slagstorm in hand and Think Twice in the yard so I'm able to deal 5. Top deck mode, and I rip the Geistflame for the win. It was beautiful.
Overall it was a great FNM for my first time playing. Definitely could have done better.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
4 Clifftop Retreat
1 Glacial Fortress
5 Island
5 Mountain
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Shimmering Grotto
4 Sulfur Falls
Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instant
4 Geistflame
2 Desperate Ravings
2 Feeling of Dread
4 Mana Leak
2 Think Twice
2 Dissipate
2 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Burning Vengeance
Other
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Pristine Talisman
3 Day of Judgment
2 Devil's Play
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Witchbane Orb
4 Gut Shot
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Negate
The sideboard was thrown together so it's definitely a work in progress.
I am going to try swapping the 2 Devil's Play for 2 Sun Titan. I like the idea of bringing Burning Vengeance and Oblivion Ring back from the graveyard with Sun Titan, and that Sun Titan alone provides an alternate win condition.
Day of Judgment, Oblivion Ring, and Timely Reinforcements are huge in the current meta for me.
Against control I'll bring 2 Negates in for 2 of the Mana Leaks. Or I'll just swap the 2 Feeling of Dread for the 2 Negate.
Between Pristine Talisman and Witchbane Orb, the RDW matchup is pretty easy.
I've had success testing this lately online and I'm looking forward to trying it at FNM tomorrow. Any input is appreciated.
ETA: For Grixis I'm going to try Liliana of the Veil instead of Olivia. Since we want to cast spells from our graveyard, we shouldn't mind Liliana's +1 too much. I may wait for DKA to come out to try a Grixis list, though.
A few notes:
1) Yes, there are only 13 spells with flashback in a Burning Vengeance deck (17 if you count Snappers, which I do). That's not a lot, it's true. However, it's worth noting that Runic Repetition + Memory's Journey gives you "infinite" flashback triggers. Neither card is very good, which is why there's only 1 of each, but that's why they're there.
2) This deck doesn't really have "a plan". It kind of cobbles together a win off of nickel-and-diming your opponent's life total until they die. Brimstone Volley-as-Lava Axe is a really good one and is usually part of any winning game plan, but doesn't have to be.
3) I think Whipflare is the best nonwhite sweeper in the format ATM. It kills pretty much everything Slagstorm kills with the exception of being a dead card against Tempered Steel. Against Tempered Steel, they obviously get boarded out in favor of Ancient Grudges.
4) Speaking of Ancient Grudges, a quick sideboarding guide:
Ancient Grudge: Vs. Tempered Steel
Gut Shot: Vs. Red Deck (is that actually a thing anymore?) and Birthing Pod
Flashfreeze: Vs. Wolf Run
Naturalize: Vs. any deck playing Plains
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
5 Island
5 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Shimmering Grotto
Other Spells(25)
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Geistflame
3 Slagstorm
1 Devil's Play
2 Doom Blade
4 Burning Vengeance
Artifacts(2)
2 Pristine Talisman
Creatures(5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flashfreeze
2 Tribute to hunger
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Here is an up-to-date Grixis list, which is mine, doing pretty good so far.
@Kuiji: I really like you list. (I updated the post) How has Wurmcoil been running for you? Reasons for not running Olivia?
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Wurmcoil is just great, it is the perfect finisher against most of the decks.
I don't really like Olivia because she is really mana intensive for me, and i prefer using mana with Flashback spells and killing my opponent with Vengeance than trying to kill/steal something with her, also if against aggro and i manage to survive Wurmcoil will just end the game, while Olivia doesn't work the same most of the times.
Snapcaster helps make up for some of the non-flashback spells. I've flashed back Day of Judgment using Snapcaster MANY times (much to the opponent's chagrin). Without getting into new card discussion, let's just say I foresee being able to add more flashback spells with the release of DKA. In the meantime, though, being able to control and stabilize the board in the early and mid game is what's allowed me to finish it off in the late game, even if that means having less flashback spells.
Last night I played a UW control deck on Cockatrice and we both had a lot of counters, Oblivion Rings, and Pristine Talismans, and by the late game were both over 20 life. Once I was able to exhaust his resources with my counters, Days, Snapcasters, etc, I was able to get multiple Vengeances in the field at once and finish him off relatively quickly (I think the final blow was when I flashed back Feeling of Dread to tap my own creature, a Snapcaster, because it was the only creature on the field).
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
I think that W is really strong in the current meta. I've been thinking on dropping one color from my Grixis list to add W instead, sometimes Slagstorm isn't enough, and that is when i need DoJ. Also Oblivion Ring is pretty good at saving our asses and Sun Titan is just awesome in this deck.
However i'm not sure which color to drop, probably B
Here is an Esper list that i just made based on my grixis:
5 Island
5 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Clifftop retreat
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Shimmering Grotto
Other Spells(23)
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Geistflame
2 Day of Judgment
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Devil's Play
4 Burning Vengeance
2 Oblivion Ring
Artifacts(2)
2 Pristine Talisman
Creatures(5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Sun Titan
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flashfreeze
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Since we're playing white I really think Feeling of Dread deserves a spot.
How has Talisman been? I've kind of stayed away from it because I've been trying to cut down on non-flashback cards. Another thing, is it necessary if you're running Timely?
More...
5 Island
5 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Shimmering Grotto
2 Rootbound Crag
Spells:
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Geistflame
2 Day of Judgment
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Feeling of Dread
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Burning Vengeance
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Day of Judgment
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flashfreeze
2 timely reinforcements
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Gut Shot
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Also, playing a 2-of Sun Titan is a really bad idea. The reason you play a set of Snapcasters in a deck with no other creatures is because once you resolve Snapcaster, you're already ahead. If they then use a removal spell on Snapcaster, it doesn't matter. On the other hand, if they blow up a Sun Titan, that's 6 mana you spent on your own main phase (and not your opponent's end step), so your opponent very well can tempo-win you by doing that.
If you're playing white, Feeling of Dread is the nut high. Again, though, that 3-color thing is a pain.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
I'm going to try and get the cards I need for that deck by tomorrow and hopefully I can give it a try at FNM. At the very least it looks like fun.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
The life problem is the main reason why i'm running both Wurmcoil Engine and Pristine Talisman in my Grixis list, and i dare to say that they are awesome together.
I'm not sure if it is need when we are using Timely reinforcements, but it is pretty good, 1 extra mana is something that i feel that helps a lot. You can cast it on 5th turn and still have mana up for a leak or something else and you will get +1 life for sure, which is "pretty slow" in a way, but it becomes relevant the more you use it.
I do like your list, seems better than the idea i had, what about something like this:
5 Island
5 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Shimmering Grotto
2 Rootbound Crag
Other Spells(26)
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Geistflame
2 Day of Judgment
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Feeling of Dread
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Burning Vengeance
Artifacts(2)
2 Pristine Talisman
Creatures(4)
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Day of Judgment
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flashfreeze
Basically your list with a few changes made to add 2 Pristine Talisman and 1 Wurmcoil Engine.
I know that Talisman + Wurmcoil + Timely seems like a lot of lifegain, but with the aggro//tempo decks rising now a days i believe it is necessary.
@Ertai87 Solar Flare wasn't really good at all anyways, however Esper control is just awesome, i don't see a problem at all by using 3-4 colors.
I feel like white helps against aggro so much.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Yup, why it shouldn't be viable anyways.
True, if we are running white then we must do what white does best, lifegain, which as you said helps a lot in this deck, that's the why i combined what i think are the top 3 ways to get some life in this deck, and they' re all different ways. Creature, Sorcery and Artifact.
I've been thinking that when I need to flashback Ancient Grudge I'll use Shimmering Grotto for the green mana. And you're right that Grotto is enough to get the one black mana late game to flashback Alchemy.
Feeling of Dread has been a huge card for me. Delaying your opponent's attacks a turn or two can mean the difference between winning and losing, and if nothing else it's cheap to flashback. It may be pretty much dead against creature-light decks, but how many of those are there in the current meta?
I'm a big fan of Talisman right now. Obviously you don't play it on turn 3. I'm basically never unhappy to see it, and over the course of a game the life you get from it can buy you enough time to win.
Until there are more flashback spells I want to use, I'm dropping Desperate Ravings for Think Twice completely. I'm not saying Desperate Ravings is bad, but that it's often been a dead card for me because I have cards in hand I need for later on (Snapcaster, Oblivion Ring, etc). While Ravings may statistically be better, the fact is that if I have the mana available I can cast Think Twice with no potential for losing a good card. If more good flashback spells are released, though, I may switch back to Ravings (because I won't be as worried about dumping something in the graveyard).
As for Sun Titan, I'm still on the fence. While I think we do need a backup win condition, the fact is there aren't a lot of targets for his ability in this deck. Maybe Wurmcoil Engine is a better choice. I'm going to try Sun Titan at FNM tonight though and see how it goes.
On a unrelated note. What are people's thoughts on the mana base in general? U/R is pretty easy, but both Grixis and U/R/W have the option to play Scars lands? Personally, I wouldn't playing them in U/R/W because they come into play tapped after t3, but in a heavy black Grixis list they seem necessary.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
I'm not going to argue whether Ravings is necessary, whether it's strictly better than Think Twice in this deck, etc, because I don't feel I'm qualified make that kind of judgment.
But here's the situation I find myself in all too often: it's the end of my opponent's turn and I have 3 mana available. In my hand is a Ravings, an O Ring, a Snapcaster, a Day of Judgment, and a relevant land. In my graveyard is a Mana Leak. Do I cast Ravings now? I personally haven't been because I want to keep pretty much every card I have in hand (other than Ravings, of course, because I might cast it now). So I move on to my turn and draw. If the Ravings were a Think Twice though, I'd certainly cast it, draw a card, and then move on to my turn and draw on my draw step. Think Twice got me a little bit further into my deck with no risk of losing the valuable cards in my hand. With Ravings I'm finding that it's often dead because I have valuable cards in hand, though I may want more (like in the above example, I want to keep all my cards in hand, but I'd love to draw to a Dissipate or BV).
DKA may change my outlook on Ravings, but for now I'd rather stick with Think Twice and be able to draw without worrying about losing a good card from my hand.
Same, that's the why i don't use them in my lists, Scar lands seems ok, but not in this deck. Depends on the build tho.
Also, you're correct about Desperate Ravings, i use only 3x of them because i needed some space for Pristine Talisman, otherwise i would play 4x of them.
Maybe it is because your list is the list with less Flashback spells atm. It depends on the build, i wouldn't want to discard an Oblivion Ring either.
I use some Scars lands because I want to ensure I have mana available for Mana Leak/Dissipate in the first few turns. After that if a land comes in tapped it hasn't been a huge problem for me.
Excellent point about mine having less flashback spells. When I get more I want to include, I'll certainly be more inclined to run Ravings.
I see, i haven't had any problem with land so far, so thats the why i don't use Scar lands.
Yeah thats probably why Ravings seems like a dead card for you most of the time, it has been a great for me, but probably because of the same reason. I do hate to discard a spell that was relevant at the time, but if it has flashback or i have a Snapcaster in hand then i don't really care, otherwise it sucks
No, you don't cast Ravings, but you can't compare it to Think Twice because you should be playing both of them.
Here's some info on ravings:
"I love a card like Desperate Ravings because its value isn’t immediately apparent. It’s sort of like Balance in that you need to play it a little bit to see just how good it can be. Here’s the fundamental bit about the random discard: it’s not as random as it seems. It was inspiring to listen to Patrick Chapin talk about the card in the Worlds Deck Tech video this past weekend. He said basically that you cast it if you need lands, you cast it if you need spells, and if you don’t need lands or spells, you don’t even need to cast it!
When you decide to cast Ravings, you’re looking at the rest of your hand. You know whether you’d be fine trading any one of those cards for two more. You’ve made the choice, even if it’s “I could lose three of these four.” Your chances of losing that card are one in six by the time you’ve cast the spell – incredible! I think more people will adopt Desperate Ravings when they play with it more; the in-game feeling of looking at your hand and deciding that you can go +2 cards on what you’re looking at is informative in the way that mathematical explanations often fall short."
Here's the video of Chapin's deck tech at worlds where he talks about ravings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R8FLpMTyIc
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
I would think so. Most of the cards in the deck are uncommon and common, so I would imagine you could use Shimmering Grottoes in place of dual lands. But 4 Snapcasters seems to be a staple. Can this deck succeed without them? Or are they so vital to the workings of this deck, that trying to play without them is a waste of time?