Agreed I think you should post the newest version of the deck in the first post REalOG. I'm glad to hear that the deck is doing really well. I'm starting to gather the cards so I can construct it too. I like the addition of Phyrexian Metamorphs. Have you had the opportunity to test against UW Humans?
Edit: Also RealOG if it wouldn't be too much trouble could you show how you sideboard in each matchup?
Hello again everyone. I've gotten the updated decklist on the bottom of the original post. I hope that everyone can find it. It includes the current main deck and sideboard. I've tested different numbers on each area (mill cards, lands, creatures, etc.) and this is what I've found to work the best for me.
Alright, the main topic of this post is to lay out sideboard plans against each of the major archetypes of standard. Bear with me because sideboarding is one of my worst things, but this is how I think we should sideboard. If there are any changes, I will edit this post with the current sideboard plan.
vs. RDW: -1x Shriekhorn, -1x Llanowar Elves; +2x Gnaw to the Bone.
This is our easiest matchup, so not much sideboarding is necessary. I would just suggest getting extra GttB into the maindeck to help stall if necessary. Of our creatures, the two most expendable ones are Llanowar Elves and Phyrexian Metamorph. In this matchup, Llanowar Elves is less useful, so one of it and one Shriekhorn should be taken out.
vs. U/W Illusions: -2x Phyrexian Metamorph, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +2x Daybreak Ranger, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
This matchup is determined by how easily you can control the board, so Daybreak Ranger is key here to fight Delver. GttB is a stall tactic to buy a few turns. You want to be as fast as possible, so the mana dorks and mill cards need to stay at max value. Typically, you won't want to have cards in your hand that make it difficult to play around Mana Leak, so Kessig Cagebreakers isn't as good in this matchup. Though Phyrexian Metamorph fights Geist of Saint Traft, the general goal of this deck is going to be to try to get the opponent off balance and force them to have to block rather than attack.
vs. WRR: -1x Grim Lavamancer, -1x Gnaw to the Bone; +2x Postmortem Lunge.
This is a wierd matchup because it involves two decks that should win anytime they can execute their strategy. Getting the Postmortem Lunges in gives us a chance to win races they were expecting to win and allows us a lot more leeway in who executes first. Grim Lavamancer is good for killing birds, but he isn't the most useful in this matchup. I like Postmortem Lunge more than Gnaw to the Bone here because PL is a wincon, while GttB just stalls.
vs. Tempered Steel: -3x Shriekhorn, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +3x Ancient Grudge, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
Speed doesn't matter in this matchup. All that matters is stopping the opponent. Once they can't execute their game plan, you'll win off the overwhelming power of your creatures. Kessig Cagebreakers is the weak link here as an expensive threat when all our cheaper threats win this matchup.
vs. Tokens: -1x Shriekhorn, -1x Llanowar Elves, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +2x Ratchet Bomb, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
We should be pretty good maindeck against these matchups, but I think that getting more answers would help us out. I'm a little hesitant about taking out so many creatures, but getting online is pretty important, so there isn't much of a choice.
vs. W/u Humans: -3x Shriekhorn, -1x Llanowar Elves, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +2x Blasphemous Act, +2x Bonehoard, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
I actually just noticed how rough this matchup might be for us. I haven't had a chance to test against it, but it seems to have pretty good answers against our general game plan. No wonder you were asking about it Duckie. The changes are so that we can have better answers. Bonehoard is good since we can start equiping our birds to either block or get in for damage.
vs. Solar Flare: -1x Llanowar Elves, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers, -1x Shriekhorn, -1x Gnaw to the Bone; +2x Bonehoard, +2x Postmortem Lunge.
It's a stupid matchup. My best advice is to try to get threats down as early as possible and just keep them coming. You want to get early mill engines, but after that, playing threats is the most important thing. Bonehoard is about increasing your threat density, and Postmortem Lunge is to try to take surprise wins. Just try to avoid counterspells as best as possible and hope they don't have removal. The other difficulty in this matchup is that they are likely to side in Nihil Spellbomb and Flashfreeze, both of which could be a problem for this deck.
This is my general analysis of our matchup versus the top decks. Any comments are welcome. I'll work on linking this post to the first post, so that it will be easy to find the sideboard strategy. I may be tweaking the sideboard a little bit, since the second GttB doesn't provide much value, and an extra Shriekhorn or a Thrun, the Last Troll would be useful in a couple of matchups.
U/W Humans and U/B Control are why I had Naturalize in my sb over Ancient Grudge originally. It's also another reason why I love Beast Within. You need answers to Angelic Destiny and swords, and Beast Within is an all-purpose instant.
The one big downside to Postmortem Lunge is that it's another "relies on the graveyard" wincon, which I'm afraid we're relying too much on. There's a point at which having too much of a theme weakens you instead of strengthening, and Nihil Spellbomb becomes more and more dangerous the more we go down that road.
Thrun got put into my mb a few days back simply because my meta is so counter-heavy that he helps tremendously. Besides, I like getting a hexproof 4/4 for 4 any day. Regeneration is simply icing on the cake.
Grim Lavamancer is really the star of the show against the Humans, though. If we can get one (at least) of him online, we're usually in a good spot. Especially since he can down Crusaders, Grand Abolishers, Relic-Warders, even their Lawkeepers (if he doesn't tap it first).
If all that doesn't work, that's why we have Blasphemous Act. It powers up our strategy while severely stunting theirs, since even Angelic Destiny won't save a creature. Also, Spellskite is an all-star at keeping Angelic Destiny in their hand... but I think it's been moved out of most sideboards now.
its a pretty rough list and ive got cuts and additions to make but this is my take on R/G self mill and wanted some input on it this is just a rough sketch and my actual versions are tighter, ill post up one after i tweak it some more
The idea is straight forward in that we are looking for LMC and grudge or manic vandals with our looting and trying to dump phoenix.
IF you manage to loot into lmc, artifact destruction AND dump at least one phoenix you are "living the dream" But its actually in playtesting not that hard to dump a phoenix and hit Metalcraft on turn 4 OR hit the lmc artifact destruction part of the "synergy"
sadly the weak link has surprisingly been splinterfright I will probably end up cutting him :/ this also lets me drop furnace scamp for something more useful like gal blast. I have been testing a few replacements and etched champion has been an allstar, versions with gal blast have been doing ok also
dudebro:
I'm not surprised that Splinterfright hasn't been as strong in your version of the deck. There just aren't enough creatures in there to make him very powerful. Most of our lists have upwards of 24 creatures... and that's just to get the Fright as big as possible as quickly as possible.
I like the idea of artifacts pushing your milled phoenixes back into play, but I'm afraid that it's a one-trick, hit or miss idea. What happens if you don't get your metalcraft in time? I assume you LMC their things to blow them up? It's a really interesting take on artifact control though. Just not sure it fits into the Splinterfright theme, especially since it's so creature-light. But a cool idea!
Jumping back to the other style of decks, I know they don't run very R heavy, but would Hero of Oxid Ridge fit into a 4CMC slot to prevent a lot of chump blocks? I know Wolf Run helps with that, but it also requires a 3 mana investment. 4/2 hasty battle cry that prevents small critters from chumping (or walls!) isn't bad.
U/W Humans and U/B Control are why I had Naturalize in my sb over Ancient Grudge originally. It's also another reason why I love Beast Within. You need answers to Angelic Destiny and swords, and Beast Within is an all-purpose instant.
The one big downside to Postmortem Lunge is that it's another "relies on the graveyard" wincon, which I'm afraid we're relying too much on. There's a point at which having too much of a theme weakens you instead of strengthening, and Nihil Spellbomb becomes more and more dangerous the more we go down that road.
Thrun got put into my mb a few days back simply because my meta is so counter-heavy that he helps tremendously. Besides, I like getting a hexproof 4/4 for 4 any day. Regeneration is simply icing on the cake.
Grim Lavamancer is really the star of the show against the Humans, though. If we can get one (at least) of him online, we're usually in a good spot. Especially since he can down Crusaders, Grand Abolishers, Relic-Warders, even their Lawkeepers (if he doesn't tap it first).
If all that doesn't work, that's why we have Blasphemous Act. It powers up our strategy while severely stunting theirs, since even Angelic Destiny won't save a creature. Also, Spellskite is an all-star at keeping Angelic Destiny in their hand... but I think it's been moved out of most sideboards now.
You brought up a lot of good points. I hadn't played this matchup yet, so when I was planning the sideboard, I wasn't specifically thinking about this matchup. Grim Lavamancer is probably going to have to be our main workhorse against W/u humans, since there aren't many convenient ways of fighting the deck without disrupting our owns strategy. I'm going to see what I can find to help make this matchup better, but until then, it will proably be best to just see what happens (I know, a terrible strategy considering how popular this deck is becoming). I'm not a huge fan of removing AG for Beast Within, since AG is so useful against TS or any heavy artifact deck.
I thought of extra tech that we could use against control instead of Postmortem Lunge. I'm going to be testing out Molten-tail Masticore and Mimic Vat in the Solar Flare/control matchup. I don't think I like MTM maindecked because of the inherent card disadvantage and the fact that it's asynergistc, but against Solar Flare, when you know they will probably be bringing in Nihil Spellbomb, it gives us a clock that is less hindered by the Spellbomb. In addition, it is a creature (therefore not lowering our creature count) and it can chump block Sun Titan all day. Mimic Vat would be useful to put Phantasmal Image under (or practically any of our main threats). We can then use the vat to copy Sun Titan and keep recurring our own threats. PI is pretty easy to kill with Grim Lavamancer, so it should be able to give us another way of fighting Solar Flare that is less reliant on the graveyard.
Edit: Oh yeah, Bearsman, I checked out your decklist on your blog. I think it looks quite good. I have a few disagreements with some of the cards, but I know part of that is that we are both testing our decks to find the right balances of threats. In general, I think it's on the right track.
@ dudebro: I have to agree with bearsman. Your main problem with Splinterfright is that you don't have enough creatures to really use it correctly. Imo, you would be better off going with a more solid artifact strategy. You could go U/R, where you gain Forbidden Alchemy and Riddlesmith; or you could go R/G/B, and splash black for Glissa, the Traitor. Glissa would allow you to use Ratchet Bomb and use Mulch to tutor up artifacts, pitch Kuldotha Phoenix, and grab lands. With Mycosynth Wellspring, a black splash for you would not be very difficult. Either of these strategies would give you a lot more flexibility. But you definitely need Ichor Wellspring in your deck. But I would have to say, you probably won't get a ton of help on this thread, so it may be best for you to start your own, so that people with similar ideas can help you get on your way. Good luck.
dudebro:
I'm not surprised that Splinterfright hasn't been as strong in your version of the deck. There just aren't enough creatures in there to make him very powerful. Most of our lists have upwards of 24 creatures... and that's just to get the Fright as big as possible as quickly as possible.
I like the idea of artifacts pushing your milled phoenixes back into play, but I'm afraid that it's a one-trick, hit or miss idea.
I dunno I feel like trying to dump a giant splinterfright onto the field is the actual one-trick pony. Kettle and pot and all that
Actually, the phoenix is hasted hard cast at 5, 4 from the yard is just a bonus, the real value is it makes the control matchups playable as anything short of exile will put a brutal clock on a control player. The ancient grudge/vandal LMC is another part of the trick and just as valid. The list I posted is very rough and I have found upping the creatures with perilous myr and also running whipflare is pure gold in the current meta. Allowing me to up the creature count and drop the more durdley wellsprings, which also allows me to run gnaw. The initial try at splinterfright was mostly for the mill 2 engine as it is very efficient if he gets to stick around, any beats would be a bonus. The real issue is hitting green effectively but ensuring a potential hardcast on phoenix
I played U/G self mill extensively. I grind it on mtgo when im not playing b/w, I have it sleeved in standard but dont bother playing it all that much, it was very useful though as I brought it to a GPT (with a few other decks) saw that it was literally 70%+ over infested with RDW and top 8'd.
The problem with the U/G standard self mill and the proposed G/R s-mill that everyone here seems to be working on is you dont have good matchups versus like 6/7 tier 1-1.5 decks. AND to make matters worse you guys are going light on GttB which is what just makes RDW such a nasty blowout, IF i wasnt sitting down against RDW the only other matchup I was "ok" with playing is WRR. You both just kind of try to set up your ridiculous boardstates and win, WRR is more consistent but if they didnt have the beast within and you both "set up" at the same time it could also work out. But basically as far as the "standard gauntlet" goes I wouldnt want to sit down with self mill of any form versus anything but RDW and WRR, and TS post boarded grudges.
Control decks WILL blow you out every time. Its disgusting. U/W humans will win before you can stop durdling and get online.
I think the phoenix-control self mill is the way forward for this archetype. I am also curious if chandras phoenix and a burn package might have a place in the list. The hard part will be nailing out a decent list.
edit: actually its probably best I move this list to a different thread
I dunno I feel like trying to dump a giant splinterfright onto the field is the actual one-trick pony. Kettle and pot and all that
That is one of the things this deck has actually moved away from. Sure, Splinterfright is a powerful engine, and it's a big threat, but with the inclusion of DKA cards, it's gained more threats, especially Ghoultree, since shifting to red also made trample easily acquired.
Actually, the phoenix is hasted hard cast at 5, 4 from the yard is just a bonus, the real value is it makes the control matchups playable as anything short of exile will put a brutal clock on a control player. The ancient grudge/vandal LMC is another part of the trick and just as valid. The list I posted is very rough and I have found upping the creatures with perilous myr and also running whipflare is pure gold in the current meta. Allowing me to up the creature count and drop the more durdley wellsprings, which also allows me to run gnaw. The initial try at splinterfright was mostly for the mill 2 engine as it is very efficient if he gets to stick around, any beats would be a bonus. The real issue is hitting green effectively but ensuring a potential hardcast on phoenix
Yeah, I can see how this would start working better. Leaning more toward red as primary could work wonders, and putting more creatures in -- especially artifacts that die and send out damage -- would play right to the deck's strengths. LMC is a work horse, and it enables all sorts of fun and control of the board state.
In addition to the Manic Vandal, what about Oxidda Scrapmelter? Just to up the creature count and more artifact destruction? It's equally splashable, too.
I played U/G self mill extensively. I grind it on mtgo when im not playing b/w, I have it sleeved in standard but dont bother playing it all that much, it was very useful though as I brought it to a GPT (with a few other decks) saw that it was literally 70%+ over infested with RDW and top 8'd.
The problem with the U/G standard self mill and the proposed G/R s-mill that everyone here seems to be working on is you dont have good matchups versus like 6/7 tier 1-1.5 decks. AND to make matters worse you guys are going light on GttB which is what just makes RDW such a nasty blowout, IF i wasnt sitting down against RDW the only other matchup I was "ok" with playing is WRR. You both just kind of try to set up your ridiculous boardstates and win, WRR is more consistent but if they didnt have the beast within and you both "set up" at the same time it could also work out. But basically as far as the "standard gauntlet" goes I wouldnt want to sit down with self mill of any form versus anything but RDW and WRR, and TS post boarded grudges.
Control decks WILL blow you out every time. Its disgusting. U/W humans will win before you can stop durdling and get online.
I thought the whole point of threads like this was to try and fix/build a deck that was nothing more than idea into something better? I think you're right: the deck is in need of more tuning. I don't think we're trying to set up such "ridiculous board states" as you'd assume, though.
I am concerned that it takes this deck up to T6 to kill. Against U/W Humans, that's just not fast enough, and they'll be controlling all our dudes before we start swinging big enough. How can we speed it up? And if not that, how can we stall that long? (GttB, I'm looking at you, though maybe the new Huntsmaster wwolf?)
I think the phoenix-control self mill is the way forward for this archetype. I am also curious if chandras phoenix and a burn package might have a place in the list. The hard part will be nailing out a decent list.
edit: actually its probably best I move this list to a different thread
If you start a second thread, I'll probably keep close tabs on that as well. The problem with the burn package is then that you're really pulling away from the Splinterfright's strengths again. Maybe going heavy burn with a Pike would work? But then you've got to question if getting the mill is really helping other than to dump phoenixes into the yard. What else does it gain?
I'm not out to say you have a bad idea; in fact I'm pretty sure I said the opposite. I just want to see if including the Fright is really helping or hurting the deck. I'm a possibilities kind of guy: I just kick around ideas that try to test what we're building.
To be fair, dudebro definitely set the gears in my head to spinning. He raised a bunch of very valid questions, not the least of which was: "Will it be competitive?" Given that in my testing the best I could really manage was T6 kills -- even as consistent as they were -- I just wasn't sure. So I wanted to see what else I could find.
I figure even as nice as red is, we weren't taking advantage of it, and that might have been our problem. We were too slow in the build, relying too much on the yard. I recalled someone earlier in this thread suggested a much more aggro-style build.
And I built this.
Clearly you can see the influence. It doesn't ramp nearly as hard... and I dropped Mulch for more creatures. It's essentially a RDW list that utilizes what happens to our creatures after they've been removed, blocked, etc. Splinterfright is still a big wincon, as are the KCBs, but they're not the ONLY wincon now. This deck is fully capable of winning without them. Stormblood Berserker is a house, Stromkirk Noble is amazing vs. human decks, and Faithless Looting is still ridiculous, but we all knew that.
Up in the air: whether to pursue this style deck or the more traditional, heavier-green version. Also, in this deck, whether I like the Boneyard Wurms in the 1G spot, or if I might prefer Viridian Emissary. Emissary is often left unblocked, so it's not like it's really reliable ramp, but it is still ramp. There have been a few games where the lands just didn't fall, and it limited the growth of the deck to the extent I considered adding more.
I'm not even sure if Ghoultree is needed in this build. Sure, when I can cast him for 1G it's great, but if he's in my opening hand... it's just intimidating, and he often gets pitched in my first Looting.
Gut Shot was included as basic removal, but more often than not it's a bloodthirst enabler T2 if there's a 1-drop non-human down for the opponent. I'm not sure if I want to trade that back out for the 2 Stromkirks that they originally were, even if it WOULD be pumping more creatures into the deck. Would it be better off with 2 Mulches?
So... what do you guys think? Is this a stronger build? Is it more reliable, more reliable against top-tier decks? Did I just waste a lot of brain power trying to tweak something that's got no future? (Not that I mind; it was fun.) Let's kick around the ideas.
To be fair, dudebro definitely set the gears in my head to spinning. He raised a bunch of very valid questions, not the least of which was: "Will it be competitive?" Given that in my testing the best I could really manage was T6 kills -- even as consistent as they were -- I just wasn't sure. So I wanted to see what else I could find.
I figure even as nice as red is, we weren't taking advantage of it, and that might have been our problem. We were too slow in the build, relying too much on the yard. I recalled someone earlier in this thread suggested a much more aggro-style build.
And I built this.
Clearly you can see the influence. It doesn't ramp nearly as hard... and I dropped Mulch for more creatures. It's essentially a RDW list that utilizes what happens to our creatures after they've been removed, blocked, etc. Splinterfright is still a big wincon, as are the KCBs, but they're not the ONLY wincon now. This deck is fully capable of winning without them. Stormblood Berserker is a house, Stromkirk Noble is amazing vs. human decks, and Faithless Looting is still ridiculous, but we all knew that.
Up in the air: whether to pursue this style deck or the more traditional, heavier-green version. Also, in this deck, whether I like the Boneyard Wurms in the 1G spot, or if I might prefer Viridian Emissary. Emissary is often left unblocked, so it's not like it's really reliable ramp, but it is still ramp. There have been a few games where the lands just didn't fall, and it limited the growth of the deck to the extent I considered adding more.
I'm not even sure if Ghoultree is needed in this build. Sure, when I can cast him for 1G it's great, but if he's in my opening hand... it's just intimidating, and he often gets pitched in my first Looting.
Gut Shot was included as basic removal, but more often than not it's a bloodthirst enabler T2 if there's a 1-drop non-human down for the opponent. I'm not sure if I want to trade that back out for the 2 Stromkirks that they originally were, even if it WOULD be pumping more creatures into the deck. Would it be better off with 2 Mulches?
So... what do you guys think? Is this a stronger build? Is it more reliable, more reliable against top-tier decks? Did I just waste a lot of brain power trying to tweak something that's got no future? (Not that I mind; it was fun.) Let's kick around the ideas.
That's similar to what I had in mind for the RG build (although I'll probably end up going Jund or RUG)
I'm not so sure about using Goblin Arsonist and I agree that Ghoultree is unnecessary and not particularly efficient in this deck
That's similar to what I had in mind for the RG build (although I'll probably end up going Jund or RUG)
I'm not so sure about using Goblin Arsonist and I agree that Ghoultree is unnecessary and not particularly efficient in this deck
I actually love the Goblin Arsonist in this build. He does two things we want: 1) He's going to do damage the first turn he can attack, activating bloodthirst; and 2) he's probably going to die doing it, filling the graveyard. Perfect critter.
I do miss my Mulches, and this deck plays so much more like RDW that I just don't know... but is it worth it for the quicker killing capabilities? /shrug
When it goes right, it's right.
If you get the creature count up to 26+, you can profitably run a couple Lead the Stampede. with 27 for example you'll get 2.25 hits on average, so like drawing 2.25 cards but without any lands (better late game).
I actually love the Goblin Arsonist in this build. He does two things we want: 1) He's going to do damage the first turn he can attack, activating bloodthirst; and 2) he's probably going to die doing it, filling the graveyard. Perfect critter.
I do miss my Mulches, and this deck plays so much more like RDW that I just don't know... but is it worth it for the quicker killing capabilities? /shrug
When it goes right, it's right.
I didn't even see that you were leaving Mulch out. I think that's an automatic 4-of in any SF deck
I didn't even see that you were leaving Mulch out. I think that's an automatic 4-of in any SF deck
These two sort of go together, I think, so I'll reply together. Shriekhorn is 1 mana for a 6 card mill. It's the best card advantage we have. That said, there have been times where I'd wished it had been Mulch instead, especially since this deck is already kind of flush with 1-drops, and when it wants land, it wants land.
I'll give it a shot in testing, but I'm not that happy with leaving the horns out. They're just really, really good.
I actually love the Goblin Arsonist in this build. He does two things we want: 1) He's going to do damage the first turn he can attack, activating bloodthirst; and 2) he's probably going to die doing it, filling the graveyard. Perfect critter.
I do miss my Mulches, and this deck plays so much more like RDW that I just don't know... but is it worth it for the quicker killing capabilities? /shrug
When it goes right, it's right.
That list you posted is sure starting to look a lot like my list.
To be fair, dudebro definitely set the gears in my head to spinning. He raised a bunch of very valid questions, not the least of which was: "Will it be competitive?" Given that in my testing the best I could really manage was T6 kills -- even as consistent as they were -- I just wasn't sure. So I wanted to see what else I could find.
I figure even as nice as red is, we weren't taking advantage of it, and that might have been our problem. We were too slow in the build, relying too much on the yard. I recalled someone earlier in this thread suggested a much more aggro-style build.
(snip)
That list you posted is sure starting to look a lot like my list.
Yep, you're 100% right. I went back to the first page of the topic and looked at how the decks started diverging, and i couldn't recall who to credit the different direction to. It was definitely your deck, as is obvious to see. I took a few liberties changing small cards and allotments, but it's largely based off what I liked about your deck!
So I think after some testing I am going to switch out the Shriekhorns for Mulches. If nothing else, it helps us fight off the land-starvation without losing the mill we desire. And we get to keep the Gut Shots. Always a plus.
Mcpatches: Any other updates to your deck? Have you tested it lately to see what works for you or not? Getting another set of eyes on the deck would really help troubleshoot.
Yep, you're 100% right. I went back to the first page of the topic and looked at how the decks started diverging, and i couldn't recall who to credit the different direction to. It was definitely your deck, as is obvious to see. I took a few liberties changing small cards and allotments, but it's largely based off what I liked about your deck!
So I think after some testing I am going to switch out the Shriekhorns for Mulches. If nothing else, it helps us fight off the land-starvation without losing the mill we desire. And we get to keep the Gut Shots. Always a plus.
Mcpatches: Any other updates to your deck? Have you tested it lately to see what works for you or not? Getting another set of eyes on the deck would really help troubleshoot.
not currently, mostly just lurking the threads and keeping my eyes on the spoiler. I'll get more testing in once the spoilers are done and I can utilize cockatrice. As of now with how aggro packed the meta is and will be, I suggest just aggroing out against them. We have the advantage of being able to drop a few huge bombs against them that are bigger than their critters even when boosted.
Ok so there's a couple of cards that could help us in the rest of the spoiler.
Tracker's instincts 1G: Basically another mulch with flashback for 2U. It looks really strong. Sadly has a blue flashback cost. Possibly worth splashing blue just for this.
Grim Flowering 5G: Draw a card for each creature in your graveyard for 6 mana. This is weak; too slow. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't play this. Just mentioning it so it doesn't get brought up later.
Dawntreader 1G: Kind of a new Sakura-tribe Elder except it costs G to activate. Probably too slow, but worth looking at.
Shattered Perception 2R: New wheel of fortune with flashback for 5R. Worth a look.
If we want to go the self mill route, it's now very easy to go RUG focusing mainly on G and splashing U and R for utility. The elk is a good 2 drop, but the G to activate makes me wary. I like tracker's instinct as we don't need too many lands. I also like shattered perception to dig for answers and fill the yard.
I really like young wolf in the aggro oriented decks. It's a strong 1 drop that can chump most 1 drops in standard and come back bigger.
I was really hoping to get more support for the archetype in the form of utility creatures, but oh well! We have a 10/10 zombie tree, self-milling creature digging, spiders, wolves, and jacket wearing twig monsters.
Even if it isn't the most effective deck, with an arsenal like that we win in the awesome department.
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Edit: Also RealOG if it wouldn't be too much trouble could you show how you sideboard in each matchup?
My Trade Thread
Alright, the main topic of this post is to lay out sideboard plans against each of the major archetypes of standard. Bear with me because sideboarding is one of my worst things, but this is how I think we should sideboard. If there are any changes, I will edit this post with the current sideboard plan.
vs. RDW: -1x Shriekhorn, -1x Llanowar Elves; +2x Gnaw to the Bone.
This is our easiest matchup, so not much sideboarding is necessary. I would just suggest getting extra GttB into the maindeck to help stall if necessary. Of our creatures, the two most expendable ones are Llanowar Elves and Phyrexian Metamorph. In this matchup, Llanowar Elves is less useful, so one of it and one Shriekhorn should be taken out.
vs. U/W Illusions: -2x Phyrexian Metamorph, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +2x Daybreak Ranger, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
This matchup is determined by how easily you can control the board, so Daybreak Ranger is key here to fight Delver. GttB is a stall tactic to buy a few turns. You want to be as fast as possible, so the mana dorks and mill cards need to stay at max value. Typically, you won't want to have cards in your hand that make it difficult to play around Mana Leak, so Kessig Cagebreakers isn't as good in this matchup. Though Phyrexian Metamorph fights Geist of Saint Traft, the general goal of this deck is going to be to try to get the opponent off balance and force them to have to block rather than attack.
vs. WRR: -1x Grim Lavamancer, -1x Gnaw to the Bone; +2x Postmortem Lunge.
This is a wierd matchup because it involves two decks that should win anytime they can execute their strategy. Getting the Postmortem Lunges in gives us a chance to win races they were expecting to win and allows us a lot more leeway in who executes first. Grim Lavamancer is good for killing birds, but he isn't the most useful in this matchup. I like Postmortem Lunge more than Gnaw to the Bone here because PL is a wincon, while GttB just stalls.
vs. Tempered Steel: -3x Shriekhorn, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +3x Ancient Grudge, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
Speed doesn't matter in this matchup. All that matters is stopping the opponent. Once they can't execute their game plan, you'll win off the overwhelming power of your creatures. Kessig Cagebreakers is the weak link here as an expensive threat when all our cheaper threats win this matchup.
vs. Tokens: -1x Shriekhorn, -1x Llanowar Elves, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +2x Ratchet Bomb, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
We should be pretty good maindeck against these matchups, but I think that getting more answers would help us out. I'm a little hesitant about taking out so many creatures, but getting online is pretty important, so there isn't much of a choice.
vs. W/u Humans: -3x Shriekhorn, -1x Llanowar Elves, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers; +2x Blasphemous Act, +2x Bonehoard, +1x Gnaw to the Bone.
I actually just noticed how rough this matchup might be for us. I haven't had a chance to test against it, but it seems to have pretty good answers against our general game plan. No wonder you were asking about it Duckie. The changes are so that we can have better answers. Bonehoard is good since we can start equiping our birds to either block or get in for damage.
vs. Solar Flare: -1x Llanowar Elves, -1x Kessig Cagebreakers, -1x Shriekhorn, -1x Gnaw to the Bone; +2x Bonehoard, +2x Postmortem Lunge.
It's a stupid matchup. My best advice is to try to get threats down as early as possible and just keep them coming. You want to get early mill engines, but after that, playing threats is the most important thing. Bonehoard is about increasing your threat density, and Postmortem Lunge is to try to take surprise wins. Just try to avoid counterspells as best as possible and hope they don't have removal. The other difficulty in this matchup is that they are likely to side in Nihil Spellbomb and Flashfreeze, both of which could be a problem for this deck.
This is my general analysis of our matchup versus the top decks. Any comments are welcome. I'll work on linking this post to the first post, so that it will be easy to find the sideboard strategy. I may be tweaking the sideboard a little bit, since the second GttB doesn't provide much value, and an extra Shriekhorn or a Thrun, the Last Troll would be useful in a couple of matchups.
The one big downside to Postmortem Lunge is that it's another "relies on the graveyard" wincon, which I'm afraid we're relying too much on. There's a point at which having too much of a theme weakens you instead of strengthening, and Nihil Spellbomb becomes more and more dangerous the more we go down that road.
Thrun got put into my mb a few days back simply because my meta is so counter-heavy that he helps tremendously. Besides, I like getting a hexproof 4/4 for 4 any day. Regeneration is simply icing on the cake.
Grim Lavamancer is really the star of the show against the Humans, though. If we can get one (at least) of him online, we're usually in a good spot. Especially since he can down Crusaders, Grand Abolishers, Relic-Warders, even their Lawkeepers (if he doesn't tap it first).
If all that doesn't work, that's why we have Blasphemous Act. It powers up our strategy while severely stunting theirs, since even Angelic Destiny won't save a creature. Also, Spellskite is an all-star at keeping Angelic Destiny in their hand... but I think it's been moved out of most sideboards now.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
4 Kuldotha Phoenix
4 Shriekhorn
4 Liquimetal Coating
4 Furnace Scamp
3 Mycosynth Wellspring
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Manic Vandal
4 Splinterfright
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Reckless Looting
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
2 Buried Ruin
1 Phyrexia's Core
its a pretty rough list and ive got cuts and additions to make but this is my take on R/G self mill and wanted some input on it this is just a rough sketch and my actual versions are tighter, ill post up one after i tweak it some more
The idea is straight forward in that we are looking for LMC and grudge or manic vandals with our looting and trying to dump phoenix.
IF you manage to loot into lmc, artifact destruction AND dump at least one phoenix you are "living the dream" But its actually in playtesting not that hard to dump a phoenix and hit Metalcraft on turn 4 OR hit the lmc artifact destruction part of the "synergy"
sadly the weak link has surprisingly been splinterfright I will probably end up cutting him :/ this also lets me drop furnace scamp for something more useful like gal blast. I have been testing a few replacements and etched champion has been an allstar, versions with gal blast have been doing ok also
I hope for some input and thoughts on this deck
I'm not surprised that Splinterfright hasn't been as strong in your version of the deck. There just aren't enough creatures in there to make him very powerful. Most of our lists have upwards of 24 creatures... and that's just to get the Fright as big as possible as quickly as possible.
I like the idea of artifacts pushing your milled phoenixes back into play, but I'm afraid that it's a one-trick, hit or miss idea. What happens if you don't get your metalcraft in time? I assume you LMC their things to blow them up? It's a really interesting take on artifact control though. Just not sure it fits into the Splinterfright theme, especially since it's so creature-light. But a cool idea!
Jumping back to the other style of decks, I know they don't run very R heavy, but would Hero of Oxid Ridge fit into a 4CMC slot to prevent a lot of chump blocks? I know Wolf Run helps with that, but it also requires a 3 mana investment. 4/2 hasty battle cry that prevents small critters from chumping (or walls!) isn't bad.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
You brought up a lot of good points. I hadn't played this matchup yet, so when I was planning the sideboard, I wasn't specifically thinking about this matchup. Grim Lavamancer is probably going to have to be our main workhorse against W/u humans, since there aren't many convenient ways of fighting the deck without disrupting our owns strategy. I'm going to see what I can find to help make this matchup better, but until then, it will proably be best to just see what happens (I know, a terrible strategy considering how popular this deck is becoming). I'm not a huge fan of removing AG for Beast Within, since AG is so useful against TS or any heavy artifact deck.
I thought of extra tech that we could use against control instead of Postmortem Lunge. I'm going to be testing out Molten-tail Masticore and Mimic Vat in the Solar Flare/control matchup. I don't think I like MTM maindecked because of the inherent card disadvantage and the fact that it's asynergistc, but against Solar Flare, when you know they will probably be bringing in Nihil Spellbomb, it gives us a clock that is less hindered by the Spellbomb. In addition, it is a creature (therefore not lowering our creature count) and it can chump block Sun Titan all day. Mimic Vat would be useful to put Phantasmal Image under (or practically any of our main threats). We can then use the vat to copy Sun Titan and keep recurring our own threats. PI is pretty easy to kill with Grim Lavamancer, so it should be able to give us another way of fighting Solar Flare that is less reliant on the graveyard.
Edit: Oh yeah, Bearsman, I checked out your decklist on your blog. I think it looks quite good. I have a few disagreements with some of the cards, but I know part of that is that we are both testing our decks to find the right balances of threats. In general, I think it's on the right track.
@ dudebro: I have to agree with bearsman. Your main problem with Splinterfright is that you don't have enough creatures to really use it correctly. Imo, you would be better off going with a more solid artifact strategy. You could go U/R, where you gain Forbidden Alchemy and Riddlesmith; or you could go R/G/B, and splash black for Glissa, the Traitor. Glissa would allow you to use Ratchet Bomb and use Mulch to tutor up artifacts, pitch Kuldotha Phoenix, and grab lands. With Mycosynth Wellspring, a black splash for you would not be very difficult. Either of these strategies would give you a lot more flexibility. But you definitely need Ichor Wellspring in your deck. But I would have to say, you probably won't get a ton of help on this thread, so it may be best for you to start your own, so that people with similar ideas can help you get on your way. Good luck.
I dunno I feel like trying to dump a giant splinterfright onto the field is the actual one-trick pony. Kettle and pot and all that
Actually, the phoenix is hasted hard cast at 5, 4 from the yard is just a bonus, the real value is it makes the control matchups playable as anything short of exile will put a brutal clock on a control player. The ancient grudge/vandal LMC is another part of the trick and just as valid. The list I posted is very rough and I have found upping the creatures with perilous myr and also running whipflare is pure gold in the current meta. Allowing me to up the creature count and drop the more durdley wellsprings, which also allows me to run gnaw. The initial try at splinterfright was mostly for the mill 2 engine as it is very efficient if he gets to stick around, any beats would be a bonus. The real issue is hitting green effectively but ensuring a potential hardcast on phoenix
I played U/G self mill extensively. I grind it on mtgo when im not playing b/w, I have it sleeved in standard but dont bother playing it all that much, it was very useful though as I brought it to a GPT (with a few other decks) saw that it was literally 70%+ over infested with RDW and top 8'd.
The problem with the U/G standard self mill and the proposed G/R s-mill that everyone here seems to be working on is you dont have good matchups versus like 6/7 tier 1-1.5 decks. AND to make matters worse you guys are going light on GttB which is what just makes RDW such a nasty blowout, IF i wasnt sitting down against RDW the only other matchup I was "ok" with playing is WRR. You both just kind of try to set up your ridiculous boardstates and win, WRR is more consistent but if they didnt have the beast within and you both "set up" at the same time it could also work out. But basically as far as the "standard gauntlet" goes I wouldnt want to sit down with self mill of any form versus anything but RDW and WRR, and TS post boarded grudges.
Control decks WILL blow you out every time. Its disgusting. U/W humans will win before you can stop durdling and get online.
I think the phoenix-control self mill is the way forward for this archetype. I am also curious if chandras phoenix and a burn package might have a place in the list. The hard part will be nailing out a decent list.
edit: actually its probably best I move this list to a different thread
That is one of the things this deck has actually moved away from. Sure, Splinterfright is a powerful engine, and it's a big threat, but with the inclusion of DKA cards, it's gained more threats, especially Ghoultree, since shifting to red also made trample easily acquired.
Yeah, I can see how this would start working better. Leaning more toward red as primary could work wonders, and putting more creatures in -- especially artifacts that die and send out damage -- would play right to the deck's strengths. LMC is a work horse, and it enables all sorts of fun and control of the board state.
In addition to the Manic Vandal, what about Oxidda Scrapmelter? Just to up the creature count and more artifact destruction? It's equally splashable, too.
I thought the whole point of threads like this was to try and fix/build a deck that was nothing more than idea into something better? I think you're right: the deck is in need of more tuning. I don't think we're trying to set up such "ridiculous board states" as you'd assume, though.
I am concerned that it takes this deck up to T6 to kill. Against U/W Humans, that's just not fast enough, and they'll be controlling all our dudes before we start swinging big enough. How can we speed it up? And if not that, how can we stall that long? (GttB, I'm looking at you, though maybe the new Huntsmaster wwolf?)
If you start a second thread, I'll probably keep close tabs on that as well. The problem with the burn package is then that you're really pulling away from the Splinterfright's strengths again. Maybe going heavy burn with a Pike would work? But then you've got to question if getting the mill is really helping other than to dump phoenixes into the yard. What else does it gain?
I'm not out to say you have a bad idea; in fact I'm pretty sure I said the opposite. I just want to see if including the Fright is really helping or hurting the deck. I'm a possibilities kind of guy: I just kick around ideas that try to test what we're building.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
My Trade Thread
I figure even as nice as red is, we weren't taking advantage of it, and that might have been our problem. We were too slow in the build, relying too much on the yard. I recalled someone earlier in this thread suggested a much more aggro-style build.
And I built this.
4x Goblin Arsonist
2x Stromkirk Noble
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Stormblood Berserker
2x Boneyard Wurm
4x Splinterfright
3x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Kessig Cagebreakers
2x Ghoultree
3x Shriekhorn
4x Faithless Looting
2x Gut Shot
2x Gnaw to the Bone
Lands (22)
4x Copperline Gorge
4x Rootbound Crag
3x Kessig Wolf Run
8x Mountain
3x Forest
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Ancient Grudge
3x Blasphemous Act
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Beast Within
2x Daybreak Ranger
Clearly you can see the influence. It doesn't ramp nearly as hard... and I dropped Mulch for more creatures. It's essentially a RDW list that utilizes what happens to our creatures after they've been removed, blocked, etc. Splinterfright is still a big wincon, as are the KCBs, but they're not the ONLY wincon now. This deck is fully capable of winning without them. Stormblood Berserker is a house, Stromkirk Noble is amazing vs. human decks, and Faithless Looting is still ridiculous, but we all knew that.
Up in the air: whether to pursue this style deck or the more traditional, heavier-green version. Also, in this deck, whether I like the Boneyard Wurms in the 1G spot, or if I might prefer Viridian Emissary. Emissary is often left unblocked, so it's not like it's really reliable ramp, but it is still ramp. There have been a few games where the lands just didn't fall, and it limited the growth of the deck to the extent I considered adding more.
I'm not even sure if Ghoultree is needed in this build. Sure, when I can cast him for 1G it's great, but if he's in my opening hand... it's just intimidating, and he often gets pitched in my first Looting.
Gut Shot was included as basic removal, but more often than not it's a bloodthirst enabler T2 if there's a 1-drop non-human down for the opponent. I'm not sure if I want to trade that back out for the 2 Stromkirks that they originally were, even if it WOULD be pumping more creatures into the deck. Would it be better off with 2 Mulches?
So... what do you guys think? Is this a stronger build? Is it more reliable, more reliable against top-tier decks? Did I just waste a lot of brain power trying to tweak something that's got no future? (Not that I mind; it was fun.) Let's kick around the ideas.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
That's similar to what I had in mind for the RG build (although I'll probably end up going Jund or RUG)
I'm not so sure about using Goblin Arsonist and I agree that Ghoultree is unnecessary and not particularly efficient in this deck
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
I actually love the Goblin Arsonist in this build. He does two things we want: 1) He's going to do damage the first turn he can attack, activating bloodthirst; and 2) he's probably going to die doing it, filling the graveyard. Perfect critter.
I do miss my Mulches, and this deck plays so much more like RDW that I just don't know... but is it worth it for the quicker killing capabilities? /shrug
When it goes right, it's right.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
Edit: I'm guessing lifelink would really help in the U/W humans matchup. Don't know if there's anything we can play though that would do that.
My Trade Thread
1) Its not a creature
2) It doesn't give you any sort of advantage with sculpting you hand or giving land.
Put those Mulchs in place of Shriekhorn and should be fine.
I didn't even see that you were leaving Mulch out. I think that's an automatic 4-of in any SF deck
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
These two sort of go together, I think, so I'll reply together.
Shriekhorn is 1 mana for a 6 card mill. It's the best card advantage we have. That said, there have been times where I'd wished it had been Mulch instead, especially since this deck is already kind of flush with 1-drops, and when it wants land, it wants land.
I'll give it a shot in testing, but I'm not that happy with leaving the horns out. They're just really, really good.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
That list you posted is sure starting to look a lot like my list.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
You're running a deck that dumps a ton of artifacts into the yard, right? Why aren't you running Slag Fiend?
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Emphasis mine... er... yeah.
Yep, you're 100% right. I went back to the first page of the topic and looked at how the decks started diverging, and i couldn't recall who to credit the different direction to. It was definitely your deck, as is obvious to see. I took a few liberties changing small cards and allotments, but it's largely based off what I liked about your deck!
So I think after some testing I am going to switch out the Shriekhorns for Mulches. If nothing else, it helps us fight off the land-starvation without losing the mill we desire. And we get to keep the Gut Shots. Always a plus.
Mcpatches: Any other updates to your deck? Have you tested it lately to see what works for you or not? Getting another set of eyes on the deck would really help troubleshoot.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
not currently, mostly just lurking the threads and keeping my eyes on the spoiler. I'll get more testing in once the spoilers are done and I can utilize cockatrice. As of now with how aggro packed the meta is and will be, I suggest just aggroing out against them. We have the advantage of being able to drop a few huge bombs against them that are bigger than their critters even when boosted.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Tracker's instincts 1G: Basically another mulch with flashback for 2U. It looks really strong. Sadly has a blue flashback cost. Possibly worth splashing blue just for this.
Grim Flowering 5G: Draw a card for each creature in your graveyard for 6 mana. This is weak; too slow. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't play this. Just mentioning it so it doesn't get brought up later.
Dawntreader 1G: Kind of a new Sakura-tribe Elder except it costs G to activate. Probably too slow, but worth looking at.
Shattered Perception 2R: New wheel of fortune with flashback for 5R. Worth a look.
What do you guys think?
My Trade Thread
I really like young wolf in the aggro oriented decks. It's a strong 1 drop that can chump most 1 drops in standard and come back bigger.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Even if it isn't the most effective deck, with an arsenal like that we win in the awesome department.