I wanted to build a BW EDH deck, so I went and looked at my general choices. The two that jumped put at me were Teysa, Orzhov Scion and Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter. I decided to get both and try them out to figure out which one to use, but I have been unable to decide. That's where you guys come in. I would appreciate if you guys could make suggestions about the decklist as well as advising me on which general would work better in the deck. The general idea I had was to accumulate a lot of tokens and small creatures to sacrifice for profit. I also added a ton of removal and a tad of recursion as a way to keep the board presence in my favor most of the time. One of my favorite things about the deck is the ability to abuse Grave Pact and Martyr's Bond to control the table, so I would like to keep this theme intact if possible. Now for the decklist:
@Tassadar_nord: Thanks for the reply. I'm currently running it with Vish Kal as the general and it seems okay, but I feel like it could be so much better. You mentioned that my build would be better with Vish Kal because it focuses more on recursion than tokens. It was my goal when I set out to make the deck to abuse the sacrifice of tokens for my benefit. I was only looking at reanimation as a side strategy. What cards can I use to make my build more token oriented? The biggest issue I have with Vish Kal is his high cmc, which is why I like Teysa better in many situations.
Does anyone else have suggestions for this deck? i know it can be much better and I would really appreciate any advice.
Alright after some more testing I think I'm going to go with Vish Kal. I've taken a look at Blackjack68's Orzhov threads for some inspiration, and I should have an update coming soon. In the meantime, I would really love some more advice on what kind of changes should be made.
Well...you should probably add the new Sorin and that BW land. I'm no fan of the Rav bounce lands, though.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely add the land once Dark Ascension is out. As for Sorin, I'm going to wait for his price to die down first. The preorder price is crzay.
Still looking for help on this deck. I'm going to be spending some money / doing some trading to improve this deck so I could really use some suggestions on what to look for.
Since we both seem to be working on basically the same theme with the same general I figured I'd contribute to your discussion and post my decklist as well and we can bounce feedback off of one another.
Here's my deck as it is today along with some other cards that I really want to get in.
In your games with the deck so far what are some of the cards in my deck or potential cards that have performed really well or not so well?
My first instinct in regards to your decklist is that you're packing way too much 1for1 removal. In a decklist that has so much freedom to wrath or abuse grave pact you probably dont need a ton of single target removal.
So cards I look at immediately for cuts are things like Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring, Condemn, Go for the Throat, Mortify, Path to Exile, Unmake and Revoke. Mortify and O-ring do get a nod for being slightly more versatile but I find that O-ring usually bites it in an austere command and isn't a permanent solution. I didn't mention Shred Memory or Brainspoil because they're equally effective as tutors, though, I think there are better cards for your deck.
As far as cards to add. Don't forget Butcher of Malakir as an additional Grave Pact effect if that's what you're looking for. Someone mentioned Sheoldred, Whispering One is quite good in this style of deck. Mirror Entity is pretty scary in a token deck. Captain of the Watch is a pretty good token producer. Divinity of Pride is absolutely scary in a B/W edh deck even if lifegain isn't part of your strategy. Eldrazi Monument is definitely something to look into. Ajani Goldmane and Elspeth Tirel are both nice. Necrotic Ooze is a ton of fun in a big game but may be more of a hassle if you're constantly having to ask people what's in their graveyards. (but if you add mirror entity definitely think about it, can definitely lead to some huge blowouts if people don't see it) Conqueror's Pledge is solid token production.
Ahhh... I could go on for days. There are plenty of nice cards in both lists that either one of us can learn from the other about. The hardest part for me isn't finding out what to add but rather what to cut.
EDH: UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter BUG The Mimeoplasm UWR Zedruu the Greathearted RUG Riku of Two Reflections UR Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius WR Aurelia, the Warleader
First big thing I notice about your deck is a lack of ramp. EDH is about big things with big reward. I know you're not playing green but there are plenty of ways to still get extra mana and make sure you hit every land drop. remember you're playing a 7cmc general with Vish kal, Blood Arbiter. you want your general out as soon as you need him if you're centralizing the deck around him and not having the mana will just make it hurt when that happens. I have been very interested in a B/W token/reanimator deck using him as a general so I'll through together a list this weekend and post it here with some suggestions. Hopefully it'll help you out some.
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Brute force can sometimes knock down a locked door, But Knowledge is a skeleton key. ~Jace Beleren~
I too have a vish kal list, but I will not be able for put it up until later tonight (like 10 pm EST). But I tried the token/reanimator route, and it never worked out for me. Now I'm trying a combo/reanimator and it is working out a lot better. Some suggestions:
2. I would get some colorless mana ramp (what kind of budget do you have?). If you can afford it, I would get mana crypt. Otherwise look at Thran dynamo and friends.
3. Decree of Justice is your best friend. Note that I cycle this more often than casting it...
i found this thread with hopes to find stuff to make my Vish Kal edh better. i figure i can help out you guys. Here is my list for my deck as it is now. I don't know how to get the cards to be links in the deck box so sorry about that...
If you have Martyr's Bond on the field, you also want to have Grave Betrayal on the field because then, when you sacrifice a creature to Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter everyone else must then sacrifice a creature, which you then gain control of in the next end step. Then you can sacrifice other peoples creatures and get EVEN MORE creatures.
Dang I haven't touched this thread in over a year. Haven't had Vish Kal built in that time either, so the decklist is really out of touch with current releases.
I'll be posting my vish kal deck some time in the near future. I will update my sig to link to it.
In my vish kal deck, I have a ton of mana acceleration. Vish kal is quite expensive to cast, so I have all the ramp to get him out fast.
A few cards I really love in my deck: Phyrexian Totem - more mana acceleration, but a 5 power sacrifice in a time of need. Yosei, the Morning Star - om nom nom + semi-time walk. Corpse Dance - hard lock with yosei and a sac outlet (no untap step), and generally huge value with stuff like solemn simulacrum.
Current Deck Stats
Average CMC: 4.03
1 Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Artifacts (4)
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Skullclamp
Creatures (19)
1 Angel of Despair
1 Archon of Justice
1 Avatar of Woe
1 Blazing Archon
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Deathless Angel
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Emeria Angel
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Gwyllion Hedge-Mage
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Necrotic Sliver
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Shriekmaw
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sun Titan
1 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
1 Twilight Shepherd
1 Grave Pact
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Martyr's Bond
1 Marshal's Anthem
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
Instants (9)
1 Condemn
1 Go for the Throat
1 Makeshift Mannequin
1 Midnight Haunting
1 Mortify
1 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Shred Memory
1 Unmake
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sorceries (22)
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Alliance of Arms
1 Army of the Damned
1 Austere Command
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Brainspoil
1 Cenn's Enlistment
1 Day of Judgment
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Dread Return
1 Exhume
1 Exsanguinate
1 Martial Coup
1 Reanimate
1 Revoke Existence
1 Rise from the Grave
1 Spectral Procession
1 Stitch Together
1 Storm Herd
1 Sunscour
1 Unburial Rites
1 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Orzhov Basilica
16 Plains
1 Secluded Steppe
13 Swamp
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Vivid Marsh
1 Vivid Meadow
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions and contributions.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Does anyone else have suggestions for this deck? i know it can be much better and I would really appreciate any advice.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely add the land once Dark Ascension is out. As for Sorin, I'm going to wait for his price to die down first. The preorder price is crzay.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Here's my deck as it is today along with some other cards that I really want to get in.
1 Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
Creatures
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Kor Cartographer
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Mirror Entity
1 Captain of the Watch
1 Magus of the Coffers
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Sun Titan
1 Deathbringer Liege
1 Stonecloaker
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
1 Reveillark
1 Emeria Angel
1 Knight-Captain of Eos
Sorceries & Instants
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Martial Coup
1 Spectral Procession
1 Minions' Murmurs
1 Nomads' Assembly
1 Beacon of Immortality
1 Conqueror's Pledge
1 Austere Command
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Demonic Collusion
1 Dread Return
1 Exsanguinate
Artifacts
1 Phyrexian Vault
1 Carnage Altar
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Phyrexian Totem
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Mimic Vat
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Tainted Sigil
1 Coalition Relic
1 Mind Stone
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Angelic Chorus
1 Grave Pact
1 Cradle of Vitality
1 Marshal's Anthem
1 Martyr's Bond
1 True Conviction
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sanguine Bond
Planeswalkers
1 Liliana Vess
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Arid Mesa
1 Fetid Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Marsh Flats
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Esper Panorama
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Terramorphic Expanse
10 Plains
10 Swamp
Potential Additions
1 Transcendent Master
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Wall of Reverence
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Hour of Reckoning
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Necromancer's Covenant
1 Suture Priest
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Identity Crisis
1 Skullclamp
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Attrition
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Caged Sun
1 Ghost Council of Orzhova
1 Shrine of Loyal Legions
1 Syphon Mind
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Soul Warden
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Crescendo of War
1 Alliance of Arms
1 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Skirsdag High Priest
1 Sol Ring
1 Geist-Honored Monk
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Myr Battlesphere
Some of the cards I REALLY want to get into the deck are:
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Crescendo of War
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Skullclamp
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 White Sun's Zenith
In your games with the deck so far what are some of the cards in my deck or potential cards that have performed really well or not so well?
My first instinct in regards to your decklist is that you're packing way too much 1for1 removal. In a decklist that has so much freedom to wrath or abuse grave pact you probably dont need a ton of single target removal.
So cards I look at immediately for cuts are things like Journey to Nowhere, Oblivion Ring, Condemn, Go for the Throat, Mortify, Path to Exile, Unmake and Revoke. Mortify and O-ring do get a nod for being slightly more versatile but I find that O-ring usually bites it in an austere command and isn't a permanent solution. I didn't mention Shred Memory or Brainspoil because they're equally effective as tutors, though, I think there are better cards for your deck.
As far as cards to add. Don't forget Butcher of Malakir as an additional Grave Pact effect if that's what you're looking for. Someone mentioned Sheoldred, Whispering One is quite good in this style of deck. Mirror Entity is pretty scary in a token deck. Captain of the Watch is a pretty good token producer. Divinity of Pride is absolutely scary in a B/W edh deck even if lifegain isn't part of your strategy. Eldrazi Monument is definitely something to look into. Ajani Goldmane and Elspeth Tirel are both nice. Necrotic Ooze is a ton of fun in a big game but may be more of a hassle if you're constantly having to ask people what's in their graveyards. (but if you add mirror entity definitely think about it, can definitely lead to some huge blowouts if people don't see it) Conqueror's Pledge is solid token production.
Ahhh... I could go on for days. There are plenty of nice cards in both lists that either one of us can learn from the other about. The hardest part for me isn't finding out what to add but rather what to cut.
EDH:
UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
BW Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
BUG The Mimeoplasm
UWR Zedruu the Greathearted
RUG Riku of Two Reflections
UR Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
WR Aurelia, the Warleader
Also, if you want to go old school, Preacher and Helm of Possession can get pretty out of hand too.
Brute force can sometimes knock down a locked door,
But Knowledge is a skeleton key.
~Jace Beleren~
1. Replace condemn and go for the throat with oblation and swords to plowshares
2. I would get some colorless mana ramp (what kind of budget do you have?). If you can afford it, I would get mana crypt. Otherwise look at Thran dynamo and friends.
3. Decree of Justice is your best friend. Note that I cycle this more often than casting it...
4. Some other cards off the top of my head:
If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.
UBR Grixis UBR
If you have Martyr's Bond on the field, you also want to have Grave Betrayal on the field because then, when you sacrifice a creature to Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter everyone else must then sacrifice a creature, which you then gain control of in the next end step. Then you can sacrifice other peoples creatures and get EVEN MORE creatures.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
In my vish kal deck, I have a ton of mana acceleration. Vish kal is quite expensive to cast, so I have all the ramp to get him out fast.
A few cards I really love in my deck:
Phyrexian Totem - more mana acceleration, but a 5 power sacrifice in a time of need.
Yosei, the Morning Star - om nom nom + semi-time walk.
Corpse Dance - hard lock with yosei and a sac outlet (no untap step), and generally huge value with stuff like solemn simulacrum.
I don't see phyrexian arena or necropotence in your lists. I'd recommend those
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW