I posted this in the Standard Dredge (All Types) thread, but it garnered no discussion. It's more accurately a UGx dredge thread. I figured this list is different enough to deserve its own.
I think something like this could be tenable. My main goal is to make Ruinator work. Everything else is gravy. 3 Ruinators might be correct (I can always just use an extra as creature fodder), but I suspect I have enough mill to ensure that they are constantly hitting the bin.
Only 22 lands because I have nothing higher than a 3 drop and I'm running Deranged Assistants.
While the shell of this deck might have been possible before Dark Ascension, I think that Thought Scour and Faithless Looting are what really make it hum. The mill needs to be fast to really benefit from Ruinator's low casting cost, and these one drop millers are what make it work. Screeching Skaab might be a nice bonus too, though I'm not sure it's better than Deranged Assistant. Both Screeching Skaab and Deranged Assistant might also be straight up worse than Merfolk Looter.
While Lavamancer might cause some synergy issues with Skaab Ruinator and Snapcaster Mage, I think there are enough mill sources to make it work. I also figure that otherwise unused lands will be hitting the bin, especially with Evolving Wilds.
Thoughts? I haven't had a chance to run anything like this, but I have some Ruinator's sitting in my binder that I'd really like to try. The deck could be more metagamed (especially with gut shots, whipflares, geistflames, mental missteps, etc.), but I'm not really sure what would stay or go. I guess there are always sideboards for that.
I like the premise of this deck, but theres a few things that stick out to me.
Snapcaster doesn't seem like where you want to be. The only good targets are doom blade and mana leak, which your currently only running 6 of. The only real synergy he has here is that he is a creature. Maybe play just 1 or 2 instead?
Deranged Assistent seems a little underwhelming as well. Armored Skaab would have more practical use in this deck, but feels like it would compete with the upper end of your curve.
I would suggest more Screeching Skaab, and taking a more aggresive approach in general. Gravecrawler and Stitched Drake could be contenders?
I like the premise of this deck, but theres a few things that stick out to me.
Snapcaster doesn't seem like where you want to be. The only good targets are doom blade and mana leak, which your currently only running 6 of. The only real synergy he has here is that he is a creature. Maybe play just 1 or 2 instead?
Deranged Assistent seems a little underwhelming as well. Armored Skaab would have more practical use in this deck, but feels like it would compete with the upper end of your curve.
I would suggest more Screeching Skaab, and taking a more aggresive approach in general. Gravecrawler and Stitched Drake could be contenders?
Yeah, I could play with the spell package a bit to make snapcaster better. Maybe drop to 3. However, I don't think it's the worst to flashback Thought Scour, which is almost a better Ponder in this deck, and it's having the option that's particularly good. Also the plan is to mill enough cards that Snapcaster is practically a toolbox. By the 4th turn I would expect to have at least one Mana Leak or Doom Blade in the gy. Finally, being able to flashback on Alchemy on turn 5 instead of turn 7 seems good.
I agree about Deranged Assistant, given that this deck is more Aggro-ish. Probably take it out to max on Screeching Skaabs, which have the benefit of a 2-power body and an immediate milling effect. I definitely don't like Armored Skaab, as it feels like a bit of a do nothing card in this deck besides milling 4-cards, which is underwhelming on turn 3 as you said.
Gravecrawler and Stiched Drake are an idea, though they both weaken my Ruinator. I'd have to actually play with it to see how many creatures I'm milling.
Taking your suggestions into account, I have this:
That's 11 first turn plays, 16 two-drops, 7 three-drops, and 3 Snapcaster, which is 3+. Seems pretty good for an aggressive curve. It occurs to me that one way to look at this deck is as a ramp deck, with Screeching Skaab playing a role similar to Viridian Emissary and Thought Scour and Faithless Looting almost as Rampant Growths/Caravan Vigils.
With something like this, you really are a ramp deck; you're just ramping your graveyard and not your mana. To that end, wouldn't Merfolk Looter make for a really strong, reusable draw/discard engine? It easily trumps Deranged Assistant, which I'm glad to see you already took out.
Also, I'm really not a fan of Mindshrieker. I playtested it a while back, and despite its evasion, it's just too random. In your deck, you can mostly count on 2 for +2/+2 (or worse). That's how it looks to me. Wouldn't that spot be better spent on either your 4th Ruinator or Stitched Drake? I know you don't think you want the extra Ruinator, but even having it sitting in your yard gives you options... and if you don't dredge it out to cast it, you could use it as exile fodder to cast something else.
The truth of the matter is you want to see Ruinators in this deck, and whether that's in-hand or in-yard, it doesn't really matter.
With something like this, you really are a ramp deck; you're just ramping your graveyard and not your mana. To that end, wouldn't Merfolk Looter make for a really strong, reusable draw/discard engine? It easily trumps Deranged Assistant, which I'm glad to see you already took out.
Looter would be a lot better in this deck than snapcaster mage.Grim Lavamancer is great in here as well, as there will always be lots of stuff in the yard... but usually the stuff in the yard is going to be creatures. If you went lighter on the lavamancers, snapcasters and mindshriekers you would have room for more effecient creatures like Merfolk Looter. I also didnt realize until just now, but your only running black for doom-blade and flashback on alchemy. With 22 lands, alchemy flashback is never gonna happen.... So basically your running black for doomblade. You should cut black all together to stabilize the mana base..
Heres your list without black and -1 of each of the mages and -2 mindshriekers
Looter would be a lot better in this deck than snapcaster mage.Grim Lavamancer is great in here as well, as there will always be lots of stuff in the yard... but usually the stuff in the yard is going to be creatures. If you went lighter on the lavamancers, snapcasters and mindshriekers you would have room for more effecient creatures like Merfolk Looter. I also didnt realize until just now, but your only running black for doom-blade and flashback on alchemy. With 22 lands, alchemy flashback is never gonna happen.... So basically your running black for doomblade. You should cut black all together to stabilize the mana base..
Heres your list without black and -1 of each of the mages and -2 mindshriekers
I hear what you're saying about the black and can see why you'd take it out. Definitely something to try, though I wonder if a card like Tragic Slip might be worth the splash later on. Something to keep in mind.
If we're taking out the black, raising the spell count, and losing the opportunity to flashback Forbidden Alchemy on its own, I don't see why you'd take out the extra Snapcaster. It seems like it would be great to be able to flashback an incinerate milled off w/e, and when you compare a Snapcaster flashbacking Thought Scour to other three-drops like Sea Gate Oracle (which saw lots of play in a more powerful format) it looks really good. This is all just theorycrafting and splitting hairs until Dark Ascension comes out, but I'd think you'd want more than 2 Snaps. I'm less sure about having more than 2 Grim Lavamancers, though I agree it's either 2 or 3.
I'm a bit concerned at how low the creature count is getting. I don't think we want below 20. If one in 3 cards is a creature, we have to mill an average of 9 cards before we can play a Ruinator, more if the Ruinator itself is milled (that is of course not taking into account that we get to choose the cards we mill with Alchemy and Faithless Looting).
I'm not sure if Bearman is right about upping to 4 Ruinators and I kinda like the compromise of adding a Stitched Drake instead. I can see where he's going about taking out the Mindshriekers for Looters. Given that Looter even saw play at the most recent GP (in PV's deck, for example), it's probably good enough here.
I would try this list (which is very similar to the one you posted):
I want to get up to 20 creatures, but I'm not sure what to take out. Maybe an Alchemy for another Looter or Lavamancer? You say the stuff in the yard will mostly be creatures, but I'm sure we'll be milling lands, and the spells we play will mostly just sit in the gy.
2 Skaab Ruinator
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Deranged Assistant
2 Screeching Skaab
2 Mindshrieker/Merfolk Looter
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mana Leak
4 Thought Scour
4 Faithless Looting
Land (22)
4 Sulphur Falls
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Evolving Wilds
6 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
I think something like this could be tenable. My main goal is to make Ruinator work. Everything else is gravy. 3 Ruinators might be correct (I can always just use an extra as creature fodder), but I suspect I have enough mill to ensure that they are constantly hitting the bin.
Only 22 lands because I have nothing higher than a 3 drop and I'm running Deranged Assistants.
While the shell of this deck might have been possible before Dark Ascension, I think that Thought Scour and Faithless Looting are what really make it hum. The mill needs to be fast to really benefit from Ruinator's low casting cost, and these one drop millers are what make it work. Screeching Skaab might be a nice bonus too, though I'm not sure it's better than Deranged Assistant. Both Screeching Skaab and Deranged Assistant might also be straight up worse than Merfolk Looter.
While Lavamancer might cause some synergy issues with Skaab Ruinator and Snapcaster Mage, I think there are enough mill sources to make it work. I also figure that otherwise unused lands will be hitting the bin, especially with Evolving Wilds.
Thoughts? I haven't had a chance to run anything like this, but I have some Ruinator's sitting in my binder that I'd really like to try. The deck could be more metagamed (especially with gut shots, whipflares, geistflames, mental missteps, etc.), but I'm not really sure what would stay or go. I guess there are always sideboards for that.
Thanks for any comments anyone might have.
Snapcaster doesn't seem like where you want to be. The only good targets are doom blade and mana leak, which your currently only running 6 of. The only real synergy he has here is that he is a creature. Maybe play just 1 or 2 instead?
Deranged Assistent seems a little underwhelming as well. Armored Skaab would have more practical use in this deck, but feels like it would compete with the upper end of your curve.
I would suggest more Screeching Skaab, and taking a more aggresive approach in general. Gravecrawler and Stitched Drake could be contenders?
Yeah, I could play with the spell package a bit to make snapcaster better. Maybe drop to 3. However, I don't think it's the worst to flashback Thought Scour, which is almost a better Ponder in this deck, and it's having the option that's particularly good. Also the plan is to mill enough cards that Snapcaster is practically a toolbox. By the 4th turn I would expect to have at least one Mana Leak or Doom Blade in the gy. Finally, being able to flashback on Alchemy on turn 5 instead of turn 7 seems good.
I agree about Deranged Assistant, given that this deck is more Aggro-ish. Probably take it out to max on Screeching Skaabs, which have the benefit of a 2-power body and an immediate milling effect. I definitely don't like Armored Skaab, as it feels like a bit of a do nothing card in this deck besides milling 4-cards, which is underwhelming on turn 3 as you said.
Gravecrawler and Stiched Drake are an idea, though they both weaken my Ruinator. I'd have to actually play with it to see how many creatures I'm milling.
Taking your suggestions into account, I have this:
3 Skaab Ruinator
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Screeching Skaab
2 Mindshrieker
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Doom Blade
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Mana Leak
4 Thought Scour
4 Faithless Looting
Land (22)
4 Sulphur Falls
4 Drowned Catacombs
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Evolving Wilds
6 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
That's 11 first turn plays, 16 two-drops, 7 three-drops, and 3 Snapcaster, which is 3+. Seems pretty good for an aggressive curve. It occurs to me that one way to look at this deck is as a ramp deck, with Screeching Skaab playing a role similar to Viridian Emissary and Thought Scour and Faithless Looting almost as Rampant Growths/Caravan Vigils.
Also, I'm really not a fan of Mindshrieker. I playtested it a while back, and despite its evasion, it's just too random. In your deck, you can mostly count on 2 for +2/+2 (or worse). That's how it looks to me. Wouldn't that spot be better spent on either your 4th Ruinator or Stitched Drake? I know you don't think you want the extra Ruinator, but even having it sitting in your yard gives you options... and if you don't dredge it out to cast it, you could use it as exile fodder to cast something else.
The truth of the matter is you want to see Ruinators in this deck, and whether that's in-hand or in-yard, it doesn't really matter.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
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Looter would be a lot better in this deck than snapcaster mage.Grim Lavamancer is great in here as well, as there will always be lots of stuff in the yard... but usually the stuff in the yard is going to be creatures. If you went lighter on the lavamancers, snapcasters and mindshriekers you would have room for more effecient creatures like Merfolk Looter. I also didnt realize until just now, but your only running black for doom-blade and flashback on alchemy. With 22 lands, alchemy flashback is never gonna happen.... So basically your running black for doomblade. You should cut black all together to stabilize the mana base..
Heres your list without black and -1 of each of the mages and -2 mindshriekers
4 Screeching Skaab
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Skaab Ruinator
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Merfolk Looter
2 Snapcater Mage
1 Stitched Drake
4 Incinerate
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
4 Thought Scour
4 Faithless Looting
4 Sulphur Falls
3 Evolving Wilds
10 Island
5 Mountain
I hear what you're saying about the black and can see why you'd take it out. Definitely something to try, though I wonder if a card like Tragic Slip might be worth the splash later on. Something to keep in mind.
If we're taking out the black, raising the spell count, and losing the opportunity to flashback Forbidden Alchemy on its own, I don't see why you'd take out the extra Snapcaster. It seems like it would be great to be able to flashback an incinerate milled off w/e, and when you compare a Snapcaster flashbacking Thought Scour to other three-drops like Sea Gate Oracle (which saw lots of play in a more powerful format) it looks really good. This is all just theorycrafting and splitting hairs until Dark Ascension comes out, but I'd think you'd want more than 2 Snaps. I'm less sure about having more than 2 Grim Lavamancers, though I agree it's either 2 or 3.
I'm a bit concerned at how low the creature count is getting. I don't think we want below 20. If one in 3 cards is a creature, we have to mill an average of 9 cards before we can play a Ruinator, more if the Ruinator itself is milled (that is of course not taking into account that we get to choose the cards we mill with Alchemy and Faithless Looting).
I'm not sure if Bearman is right about upping to 4 Ruinators and I kinda like the compromise of adding a Stitched Drake instead. I can see where he's going about taking out the Mindshriekers for Looters. Given that Looter even saw play at the most recent GP (in PV's deck, for example), it's probably good enough here.
I would try this list (which is very similar to the one you posted):
4 Screeching Skaab
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Skaab Ruinator
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Merfolk Looter
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Stitched Drake
3 Incinerate
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
4 Thought Scour
4 Faithless Looting
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Evolving Wilds
10 Island
5 Mountain
I want to get up to 20 creatures, but I'm not sure what to take out. Maybe an Alchemy for another Looter or Lavamancer? You say the stuff in the yard will mostly be creatures, but I'm sure we'll be milling lands, and the spells we play will mostly just sit in the gy.