MTG Salvation

Hello, I finally convinced myself to post my cube list online to get feedback from others and discussion about the best format in Magic. A lot of credit goes to wtwlf123, I based the original list from his and customized from there. His hard work and contributions to the community are greatly appreciated. I enjoy cubing with a small group of experienced players (between 2 and 8 players) once or twice a week.

Here is the list I am currently running. Some card choices are based more on what the group likes/dislikes than power levels and 'standard' choices. Feedback is greatly appreciated.

Cube Info:
size: 450 cards
sections: 60 each color, 60 colorless, 90 multicolor
themed cube?: no (standard)
average drafts: usually 2-10 players once or twice a week (10 people uses the entire cube)
how it's drafted: 3 packs of 15 cards, 5 packs of 9 cards, winston (all types), rochester (all types), booster tutor, 2HG, emperor, star, trash draft and more
NOT powered (but power sleeved and ready to go if requested)
NO portal, unhinged, unglued, snow


The Cube:

Chopping Block Area (feedback wanted!)
- in progress atm

Quote from k2 »

First of all, all credit goes to wtwlf123. When I chose to create a cube for my playgroup I wanted a solid list to use as a starting point, and customize it from there. I used his old 450 card list (as most people with lists on this site do, admit it or not) and all of his hard work and contributions to the community are greatly appreciated.

Thanks buddy! And welcome to the cube forum!

If I could recommend one change in each section, it would be these right now:

- Emeria Angel; + Land Tax

- Pestermite; + Memory Lapse

- Sudden Spoiling; + Sarcomancy

- Slagstorm; + Jackal Pup

- Noxious Revival; + Life From the Loam

- Fires of Yavimaya; + Stormbind

- Platinum Emperion; + Sundering Titan

Thanks eidolon232, I meant to thank you in the OP for all your hard work as well, but I think everyone here is pretty aware of the work you put in for us. I've lurked these forums for years but just barely joined. Most of the cards with (*) next to them will be replaced soon (about 20-25 cards).

wtwlf123, I've had those cards in the cube previously (big surprise since I used your list) and have pulled them because people were rarely using them. However out of those cards you listed Fires of Yavimaya may come out for Huntmaster of the Fells. I need to update it with the new set.

I can't believe people weren't playing Land Tax. I think it's one of the five best white cards in the entire cube.

Quote from wtwlf123

I can't believe people weren't playing Land Tax. I think it's one of the five best white cards in the entire cube.

I'm not in the Land Tax camp for cube just my personal opinion though.

EDIT: Added 'chopping block area to discuss current adds/drops to the cube (most of the reason I am posting my list here).

I didn't know there was a "camp" for folks that dislike one drops that draw like nine cards.

Quote from wtwlf123

I didn't know there was a "camp" for folks that dislike one drops that draw like nine cards.

I didn't say it was a big camp. It wasn't seeing enough play in the cube and we decided to pull it (yes it is good).

Some themes do not get drafted very often including reanimator, and artifact.dec, and this is why there are some 'staple' cards that are either being cut or are absent.

Up until recently I was using the mentality of 'these cards are the best cube cards and they will remain in the cube and if you don't like/use them that's your own fault' with more focus on what is fun and fits the play style of my friends that I draft with. There are some cards (like Land Tax) that for whatever reason just never saw play. I'd rather have a 'weaker' card that someone is excited to see in a pack and play in their deck. How do you guys go about deciding when to add or cut cards?

Quote from k2solbri »

Up until recently I was using the mentality of 'these cards are the best cube cards and they will remain in the cube and if you don't like/use them that's your own fault' with more focus on what is fun and fits the play style of my friends that I draft with. There are some cards (like Land Tax) that for whatever reason just never saw play. I'd rather have a 'weaker' card that someone is excited to see in a pack and play in their deck. How do you guys go about deciding when to add or cut cards?

I think there are some cards with debated power-levels that need to be tested group to group to determine their efficiency for your playgroup. But when it comes to a card like Land Tax, I think that someone needs to take the initiative in the group to play the card, show everyone else how good it is and make it a mainstay. No other card in the game generates this kind of card advantage, resource advantage and deck-thinning; and it does it all for one mana. If it's not being played, I'd fix that by playing it. Some cards can be cut for not seeing enough play, but Land Tax shouldn't be one of 'em.

Quote from wtwlf123

I think there are some cards with debated power-levels that need to be tested group to group to determine their efficiency for your playgroup. But when it comes to a card like Land Tax, I think that someone needs to take the initiative in the group to play the card, show everyone else how good it is and make it a mainstay. No other card in the game generates this kind of card advantage, resource advantage and deck-thinning; and it does it all for one mana. If it's not being played, I'd fix that by playing it. Some cards can be cut for not seeing enough play, but Land Tax shouldn't be one of 'em.

Alright sir I will add it in for our next draft and force it into my deck. Our group knows it's power level it was just one of those weird things where it wasn't seeing the play that it should have seen. I do enjoy me some white in cube!

edit- anything you can suggest to add to black to stimulate it a little more? Recursion as a theme isn't too popular to our players so I was trying to think a little outside the box for this one. Are there any good lifegain cards in black to offset the very common loss of life effects?

In my cube there have been multiple decks with the Land Tax + Scroll Rack combo--which is absolutely insane.

Land Tax has also been good by itself--it completely mana fixes you with one activation. It lets you keep hands with 1 Plains in them. I recall one draft where an inexperienced player elected not to drop a land on his 2nd turn due to his opponent's Land Tax. He was forced to drop the land once he was facing down an opposing Isamaru, Hound of Konda. Land Tax isn't good, it's amazing.

edit- anything you can suggest to add to black to stimulate it a little more? Recursion as a theme isn't too popular to our players so I was trying to think a little outside the box for this one. Are there any good lifegain cards in black to offset the very common loss of life effects?

You can do an aggro/LD theme maybe? Run more land destruction effects in black and the other two black aggro 1-drops and a bunch of 2cc beaters.

You're running most of the good lifegain stuff in black, but there's the 2/1 lifelink for 1B that might make a good addition if you really need lifegain.

some black cards a friend suggested include ashes to ashes ink-eyes, servant of oni, living death, sadistic hypnotist (we play a lot of multiplayer so he might be fun)

what do you think about the ninjutsu creatures? can't remember names but 2 that come to mind are the ones that discard 2 cards and destroy a creature on impact

All of those suggested cards are okay, but pretty weak for a 450 card cube.

Quote from wtwlf123

All of those suggested cards are okay, but pretty weak for a 450 card cube.

Ya I know that's the problem. We were looking for some 'build around me' black cards that would be enticing. We play a lot of multiplayer games and I think living death could be exciting

Hey I saw that you ranked Berserk as your #1 green card. Its a beating for us as well, but we haven't played with a tuned cube before where it seems like things like pump spells might be out of place (and those are what really puts Berserk over the top).

Stupid question maybe, but how does your Cube get the most out of Berserk?

Quote from KBH

Hey I saw that you ranked Berserk as your #1 green card. Its a beating for us as well, but we haven't played with a tuned cube before where it seems like things like pump spells might be out of place (and those are what really puts Berserk over the top).

Stupid question maybe, but how does your Cube get the most out of Berserk?

To be honest with you it is more of a pet card of mine than anything. In an aggro deck 1v1 style draft it's the final damage plopped on any creature to finish an opponent off before they get that next turn to wrath the board or stabilize with something else. It's one of the most cost effcient cards in green for only one mana, and can be sometimes even be removal (we play a lot of group games like STAR and it sure is fun to berserk someone else's creature to kill a different opponent and destroy that creature at the same time for only 1 mana). Most broken green card in cube? Probably not. But one of the funner surprise cards to play IMO.

edit- You asked how to get the 'most' out of it- self pumpers (Chameleon Colossus), equipped creatures (Loxodon Warhammer), and sometimes ghetto removal (against something like Shadowmage Infiltrator).

Quote from eidolon232

The only playable lifegain card in black that is currently not in your list is Tribute to Hunger.
The most important missing cards in your black section are

• Sarcomancy (1 mana 2/2)
  
• Braids, Cabal Minion (great lock down card in aggro decks and even better in an engine with cards like Bitterblossom / Bloodghast)
  
• Inquisition of Kozilek (another targeted discard spell that can both hit creature and noncreature spells)
  
• Barter in Blood (pretty strong mass removal spell, with some sick extra value in the BW token deck)
  
• Puppeteer Clique (this card combines card advantage, tons of damage, dodges removal and access to offcolor etb effects)
  

btw: Tombstalker shows up in your spell section.


If you are playing a lot of multi, Ashes to Ashes might be a good addition, since it is easier to have 2 targets for your removal spell.
Ink-Eyes is ok, but there are too many better 4-6 drops in black.
Living Death has a very powerful effect, but it is way too random for my taste.

Thanks Eidolon, personally I think there are an increasing number of 2/2 beaters in black already and it didn't see too much play. Braids is not included based on playgroup requests (one of the most broken black cards in cube IMO). Puppeteer Clique is on it's way in and I can't believe it wasn't in before. Barter in Blood looks good too and I think i'll include that as well. Inquisition and Tribute I'll have to think about but both look worthy enough to be in as well.

CHANGES-

-1 Gorilla Shaman +1 reckless waif ................. not used (and power nine subbed out a lot)
-1 Entomb +1 Pupeteer Clique ............. reanimator theme not used frequently
-1 Nether Void +1 Barter in Blood ............. not used (and it was one of the few proxies)
-1 Psychatog +1 Wydwen, the Biting Gale ............... not used (same as entomb)
-1 crucible of worlds +1 coldsteel heart ............. not used, and player preference

Nether Void has always been one of the strongest cards in my cube. Basically a black Armageddon.

Man, I would undo every single one of those changes.

Agree with eidolon and wtwlf.

Cheers,
rant

Wtwlf: you aren't going to like ANY changes I make because the original list was your old 450 cube.
For nether void and to an extent crucible I agree that the power level is higher than the card going in. with crucible no one is exited to snap it up looking for the strip mine to go with it. I think people are looking for new and innovative ways to win and make decks that have been cubing since the days of land lotus braids hurf durf or strip mine + crucible.
Eidolon: Im clearly missing something here but how is crucible card advantage for masticore etc? Were you thinking of loam?
I appreciate the criticism and it's why I posted here. The cuts I propose are almost always going to be based on lack of play and not power level, and having stuff sit undrafted is something I don't want. I stand by all of these cuts except the nether void which you are right-should see play. Are the ads exciting? Not really, except the clique which I'm excited for.
Edit- eidolon I especially appreciate the card explanations

Instead of cutting powerful cards, have you tried drafting them yourself and beating face? It's worked a couple times for cards in my cube (I had a Dark Confidant doubter who now drafts Confidant highly since I showed him the error of his ways).

Crucible is card advantage with Masticore because if you discard a land, you aren't really discarding. You're essentially just playing your land like always. I guess that actually means it's not card advantage, but it remedies that card disadvantage of the masti. Crucible combos with tons of stuff. I'll run it if I have at least 3 synergistic cards (Masticore and two fetches) or two bomb-tastic synergies (Braids, Strip Mine).

Cheers,
rant

Lol thanks rant the obvious went over my head with crucible. Masticore and his brothers are average creatures in cube now with the power inflation in the post few years and a card needs a little more than helping them.
Yes before I cut cards I try and seek them out of the draft and build a deck around their archtype. Nethervoid proved itself, psychatog flopped even worse than expected (lacks his support cards in the cube and just isn't as good as he used to be), gorilla shaman loses his purpose with the power 10 coming out so often, and tbh I think crucible is flat out one of the most overrated cards in cube, I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but that's fine. When I see crucible in a pack I think 1. That will go well with fetches 2 I can be the strip mine guy (not appealing to me, and only works if i SEE strip mine/wasteland) and 3. A way to off set armageddon, balance etc (pretty legit tbh).
Basically we just don't really want to run it. The people that draft are not stupid and for the most part understand interactions and what cards can do. I guess it's been more fun to draft more exciting out of the box style decks than the classic combos everyone has been on both sides of experiencing. I know I'm not going to have very many friends here but hopefully I can give a different perspective at least