The staff have been brainstorming creating a subforum where moderation is more relaxed, & in a bit of synchronous groupthink, the idea has been presented in various forms around the community. I thought I'd just open this thread to get that discussion in one place.
Currently what we are looking at is a SFW area that is open to the general userbase. By 'relaxed moderation' we are considering allowing things like:
• spam: posts consisting of ":cool:" or "/this" would be fine.
• playful trolling: in the vein of 'laughing with' rather than 'laughing at'
• a specific, dedicated thread allowing excessive multiposting
• oversized unspoiled images
• otherwise unguided topic creation
Some of the concerns we have are:
• malicious spamming/derailing
• user inability to maintain sense of humor
• user inability to distinguish between 'laughing with' & 'laughing at'
• Godzilla attack
• posting habit spillover from this subforum to other areas of the forum
In the vein of what Stardust posted in the magical migrating thread of our salvation, isn't this covered by QRG and humour? Where the moderation is already a little lower that the rest of the forum.
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I kind of like the idea but I'm not sure I like the idea of "playful trolling" or letting people's humor run wild. I also don't think it'd generate good habits for some of the members. I know I'd be fine, but I think some would pick up some bad habits that wouldn't be allowed elsewhere.
So while I think it's an okay concept, I don't see it as practical.
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We have it in the EDH subforum and it suprisingly is doing well for beiing run by ISB and Viper (of course I jest them)
Honestly, as long as it remains casual and not a place where people do what you fear, it'll be fine.
If it were up to me, I'd wait 6 months and watch the commanders subforum free speak as a test. If it hasnt gone to the trolls (so to speak), then that seems like positive bearings.
To be honest, all things considered I don't really see the point of it. You're basically just talking about creating a more relaxed version of WCT with a huge spam thread given that it'd still be SFW. The gain from such a subforum is minimal at best when you look at it from the perspective of "what can you do in this subforum that you can't in any other?" Spamming seems like the big draw, but that's either post count inflation (if posts count in that subforum) or a cheap novelty that'll wear off quickly (if posts don't count). In general it just seems like something that'd fester a lot of the bad kind of drama, especially with how the "playful trolling" thing would almost certainly be used as a pretext for taking out personal grudges while maintaining a veneer of legitimacy. The short of it is basically that you'd probably wind up with a 4chan-ish atmosphere.
We have it in the EDH subforum and it suprisingly is doing well for beiing run by ISB and Viper (of course I jest them)
I have a feeling that this is not what not really what ria has in mind. Specifically, ria is talking about something a lot more relaxed to the effect that being called out as a spammer would actually be a compliment.
If it were up to me, I'd wait 6 months and watch the commanders subforum free speak as a test. If it hasnt gone to the trolls (so to speak), then that seems like positive bearings.
The offtopic thread in the commander subforum was probably derived from a similar thread in Cube here.
On topic, like many other posters have pointed out, I feel that this is likely to be redundant at best. That said, if the moderation staff has the resources to do it, you could try a test run with the option to pull the plug when things go bad.
Touche, but will this really be that different from old Testing Grounds, moderated or not?
I'm also worried about how it would be moderated. Not in a standards sense, but more in terms of practicality. This would be a high-volume area with a lot of borderline content. I think it'd be easy to let slide or become a huge time-hog for the staff - neither of which are worth it in my opinion.
And even if the moderation end holds up, there's still the issue that others have rightly brought up: that it could generate and foster bad habits that would carry over to other sections. That may very well be an acceptable risk for some, but I'm wary of setting the bar any lower.
Frankly, if Godzilla Attack is any concern, this is an idea that needs to be avoided at all costs. (My mouth is still moving but no sound is coming out)
On Topic, I do not think this is a great idea. I don't think that catering to trolling and spam is really a positive for the site. I don't really see any gain for the forumgoers of MTGS.
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Don't we already have one called Water Cooler Talk?
Largely, but there has been a push lately (see the Mods are trolls... thread) for a version of WCT (a subforum, a single thread, a revamped rules system, etc.) where the moderation is less firm and people are free to post more "lighthearted" or "casual" or "spammy" things.
Largely, but there has been a push lately (see the Mods are trolls... thread) for a version of WCT (a subforum, a single thread, a revamped rules system, etc.) where the moderation is less firm and people are free to post more "lighthearted" or "casual" or "spammy" things.
But... what would the point of that be? Its not like WCT is plagued with infractions, or people are posting reasonable stuff and its getting infracted.
Seriously, the level of moderation on this forum is great. Why would we want to open up a "lawl, anything goes section" (or even a section approaching that)?
I would be much more receptive to discussing a single thread than a whole dedicated subforum. That, I feel, is a significant difference: I would be unconcerned about the existence of a single thread, instead of opposing it.
An entire subforum dedicated to a "lighthearted atmosphere" would probably induce people to make whole threads with very little content, make threads specifically to post questionable content and push the proverbial envelope of what is and isn't allowed in that forum, host off-site information caches (or, as has already been stated, on-site caches), and other various and annoying things that I would consider disruptive; a single thread, however, is less prone to abuse in these areas. Admittedly, it would be annoying to have it constantly bumped to the main forums visibility window whenever anybody wants to state something, but that is a comparatively minor concern, at least to me.
I am vehemently opposed to this idea. Think of what happened in the previous test, except the public is not in any way limited from seeing it, and there's no way to remove the chaff. All I see happening from this is infractions galore, and many a sore behind.
EDIT: To clarify, I am not opposed to the previous test, or this if this is what it is becoming. I just don't think two is a good idea.
We already kind of have two+ (Clans and WCT) iterations of this "Casual" subforum on MTGS. That's not to mention what happened to Testing Grounds, or "Clans 2.0". Another "Casual" subforum would really be overkill...
I recommend editing the rules of one the existing subforums if this idea is to be implemented. Though I am opposed.
I am not familiar with the testing grounds. What happened there and how would it be analogous to the subforum being considered in this thread?
The basic problem was that, since the old testing grounds was completely visible to all users, it was used as a place to take potshots at other users (as they could not edit your posts and there was no moderation), have large-scale, multi-thread flame wars, and apparently most egregiously store your personal information (mafia game wins, quotes, etc.)(AKA "extendo-sigs"). Thus the true purpose of the testing grounds (i.e. testing vBulletin code, etc.) was almost never actually used in lieu of massive, pointless threads that served little real purpose and were contentious to the well-being of the site.
Although it should be noted that this only covers the meat of the issue, whereas the far more interesting and painful part of the story is actually the aftermath of the testing grounds removal: many people felt that it was extremely unfair to shut them down (some left the site), as it was the easiest and most well-known venue for storing their information and it appeared somewhat vidictive of the staff to remove it with no real reason beyond the relatively minor drain on resources and commentary that it was a breeding grounds for unsavory behavior. The Gutter was heavily implicated as being behind the whole thing somehow. Here seems to be the most comprehensive thread on the issue, although the story is quite epic and fascinating if you're willing to dig up the whole thing.
Just to clarify, I do not make any statement as to the veracity of the claims about the Gutter, only that there were claims made.
Well, the thing about the old Testing Grounds was brought up already, so that's what I think here.
(Also, I remember one user did once get suspended for posting NSFW images in the Undergrounds, so yes, there was some moderation there.)
Also, if this becomes a reality (which I'm on the fence about), posts should not count there.
Well, the thing about the old Testing Grounds was brought up already, so that's what I think here.
(Also, I remember one user did once get suspended for posting NSFW images in the Undergrounds, so yes, there was some moderation there.
Sure, that would be the exact incident that made us realize Testing Grounds was unmoderated, & what subsequently lead to it being removed.
Sure, that would be the exact incident that made us realize Testing Grounds was unmoderated, & what subsequently lead to it being removed.
Would a single thread in WCT be too hard to moderate?
I don't see how this new forum presents any unique challenges. There are rules like any other subforum, and moderators would be chosen to make sure these rules are followed. As long as people aren't blatantly flaming or posting NSFW images (which would be against the rules still and in theory not happen with any more frequency than other forums) I don't think this type of forum presents any insurmountable issues.
Currently what we are looking at is a SFW area that is open to the general userbase. By 'relaxed moderation' we are considering allowing things like:
• spam: posts consisting of ":cool:" or "/this" would be fine.
• playful trolling: in the vein of 'laughing with' rather than 'laughing at'
• a specific, dedicated thread allowing excessive multiposting
• oversized unspoiled images
• otherwise unguided topic creation
Some of the concerns we have are:
• malicious spamming/derailing
• user inability to maintain sense of humor
• user inability to distinguish between 'laughing with' & 'laughing at'
• Godzilla attack
• posting habit spillover from this subforum to other areas of the forum
Op/ed?
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
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So while I think it's an okay concept, I don't see it as practical.
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Honestly, as long as it remains casual and not a place where people do what you fear, it'll be fine.
If it were up to me, I'd wait 6 months and watch the commanders subforum free speak as a test. If it hasnt gone to the trolls (so to speak), then that seems like positive bearings.
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I have a feeling that this is not what not really what ria has in mind. Specifically, ria is talking about something a lot more relaxed to the effect that being called out as a spammer would actually be a compliment.
The offtopic thread in the commander subforum was probably derived from a similar thread in Cube here.
On topic, like many other posters have pointed out, I feel that this is likely to be redundant at best. That said, if the moderation staff has the resources to do it, you could try a test run with the option to pull the plug when things go bad.
Pretty much. I mean, isn't this just Testing Grounds Redux, sorta?
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Touche, but will this really be that different from old Testing Grounds, moderated or not?
I'm also worried about how it would be moderated. Not in a standards sense, but more in terms of practicality. This would be a high-volume area with a lot of borderline content. I think it'd be easy to let slide or become a huge time-hog for the staff - neither of which are worth it in my opinion.
And even if the moderation end holds up, there's still the issue that others have rightly brought up: that it could generate and foster bad habits that would carry over to other sections. That may very well be an acceptable risk for some, but I'm wary of setting the bar any lower.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
On Topic, I do not think this is a great idea. I don't think that catering to trolling and spam is really a positive for the site. I don't really see any gain for the forumgoers of MTGS.
I vote no.
Largely, but there has been a push lately (see the Mods are trolls... thread) for a version of WCT (a subforum, a single thread, a revamped rules system, etc.) where the moderation is less firm and people are free to post more "lighthearted" or "casual" or "spammy" things.
But... what would the point of that be? Its not like WCT is plagued with infractions, or people are posting reasonable stuff and its getting infracted.
Seriously, the level of moderation on this forum is great. Why would we want to open up a "lawl, anything goes section" (or even a section approaching that)?
Basically I don't see the point to it.
EDIT: To clarify, I am not opposed to the previous test, or this if this is what it is becoming. I just don't think two is a good idea.
I recommend editing the rules of one the existing subforums if this idea is to be implemented. Though I am opposed.
The basic problem was that, since the old testing grounds was completely visible to all users, it was used as a place to take potshots at other users (as they could not edit your posts and there was no moderation), have large-scale, multi-thread flame wars, and apparently most egregiously store your personal information (mafia game wins, quotes, etc.)(AKA "extendo-sigs"). Thus the true purpose of the testing grounds (i.e. testing vBulletin code, etc.) was almost never actually used in lieu of massive, pointless threads that served little real purpose and were contentious to the well-being of the site.
Although it should be noted that this only covers the meat of the issue, whereas the far more interesting and painful part of the story is actually the aftermath of the testing grounds removal: many people felt that it was extremely unfair to shut them down (some left the site), as it was the easiest and most well-known venue for storing their information and it appeared somewhat vidictive of the staff to remove it with no real reason beyond the relatively minor drain on resources and commentary that it was a breeding grounds for unsavory behavior. The Gutter was heavily implicated as being behind the whole thing somehow.
Here seems to be the most comprehensive thread on the issue, although the story is quite epic and fascinating if you're willing to dig up the whole thing.
Just to clarify, I do not make any statement as to the veracity of the claims about the Gutter, only that there were claims made.
(Also, I remember one user did once get suspended for posting NSFW images in the Undergrounds, so yes, there was some moderation there.)
Also, if this becomes a reality (which I'm on the fence about), posts should not count there.
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Sure, that would be the exact incident that made us realize Testing Grounds was unmoderated, & what subsequently lead to it being removed.
Would a single thread in WCT be too hard to moderate?
I don't see how this new forum presents any unique challenges. There are rules like any other subforum, and moderators would be chosen to make sure these rules are followed. As long as people aren't blatantly flaming or posting NSFW images (which would be against the rules still and in theory not happen with any more frequency than other forums) I don't think this type of forum presents any insurmountable issues.
No, but it's also not an especially desirable solution, depending on who you poll.