Hi all, I've been brewing this deck for a while now, and I'm finally satisfied with the numbers. This deck isn't meant to be super-competitive or anything, so if you're looking for a competitive white-weenie deck go play U/W Humans. However, like the original Legacy deck, it is a ton of fun to play.
What is "Death and Taxes?"
For those not in the know, Death and Taxes is a white weenie deck (played in Legacy and Modern) featuring creatures that annoy your opponents with cool tricks involving Mangara of Corondor, Flickerwisp, and others.
The name "Death and Taxes" derives from an old saying by Benjamin Franklin: "Nothing in this world is consistent except for Death and Taxes." The "Taxes" in the name of the deck refers to playing cards that levy a "tax" from your opponent and effectively switch off their game plan. The "Death" part of the deck name means to, well, literally cause death for your opponent. Who doesn't like that?
Thankfully, there are enough cards in standard that "taxes" the opponent effectively as well as having effective interactions with each other. Let's take a look at the deck.
(My decklist represents only what I believe to be a good build for this deck. There are other decks with various color combinations that are brewed by others in this thread. Do scroll down and check them out!)
If you're going to play Relic-Warder/Suture Priest, toss in a Meta-morph or two. Copying opposing Swords/Wurmcoils/legends while also being part of a infinite life gain combo seems pretty main-deckable. I want to play a Sword or two in the list even though we are playing Thalia. The deck is also missing Mirran Crusader, that card is just too good right now. Norn's Annex as a Ghostly Prison effect seems too expensive, especially with Thalia. I want to put a Sun Titan in that slot or maybe Gideon. Nevermore also seems iffy, but I haven't played with it much. Some times it seems too dead to be useful.
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10/4/2004 You might end up discarding the card you searched for.
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If you're going to play Relic-Warder/Suture Priest, toss in a Meta-morph or two. Copying opposing Swords/Wurmcoils/legends while also being part of a infinite life gain combo seems pretty main-deckable. I want to play a Sword or two in the list even though we are playing Thalia. The deck is also missing Mirran Crusader, that card is just too good right now. Norn's Annex as a Ghostly Prison effect seems too expensive, especially with Thalia. I want to put a Sun Titan in that slot or maybe Gideon. Nevermore also seems iffy, but I haven't played with it much. Some times it seems too dead to be useful.
Thanks, your feedback makes sense. I don't want to focus on the suture priest comboes with this deck since he's basically there to tax the opponent, but Metamorph sounds like a very good idea as another trick up our sleeves. I'm not going to run mirrans as he doesn't fit the game plan, we're running an answer-heavy deck and mirran is neither an answer nor a tax effect, as powerful as he can be. I will run metamorphs in the annex slots.
Nevermore's usefulness depends on how much you understand the meta. Against rogue decks it would be less useful, but I know the tier 1 and 1.5 decks in my own meta pretty well so I can always play it and call a threat based on their first two or three turns' plays.
leonin arbiter and ghost quarters is a good tactic for a death and taxes decks. Have you considered adding mirran crusader since he is such a good card against many decks? Also, great deck idea.
leonin arbiter and ghost quarters is a good tactic for a death and taxes decks. Have you considered adding mirran crusader since he is such a good card against many decks? Also, great deck idea.
Playing Strip Mine seems correct, if you're going to go that route I suggest Sun Titan. Being able to run a mana-denial plan that can turn into a Strip Mine lock sounds like something I'd love to do in Standard. With this route Meta-morph seems even more correct. Cloning Arbiters, Flipped Shamans and the infinite life gain combo all main deck is just too good to pass up. I'd actually cut Nevermores for Phyrexian Revoker he's a body that taxes and can shut down swords, walkers and other pesky things like Birthing Pods without having to bring in non-creature artifact removal.
10/4/2004 You might end up discarding the card you searched for.
Level 2 DCI Judge Contributor to the Rules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*
I collect Foil Innistrad Island #254 Current Count : 152
Arc trail is for delver decks or token decks. It is a good way to effectively deal with the first few delvers/tokens without having to rely on board wipes while you get your deck online.
Lingering Souls is an amazing card that adds additional threats and ways to block delver to the deck.
Mirran crusader: This is amazing against zombies and any deck trying to with with a G/B color combination.
Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter: This combination basically gives you strip mines. It also makes playing against wolf run ramp a very easy match up. They have to answer arbiter before they can really do anything else.
Sun Titan: This gets back almost every card in the deck, and it allows you to cycle through ghost quarters for a free strip mine every turn.
I am going to go back and try to find room for suture priest, but I haven't been able to fit it in the deck yet. They just seem to only be relevant in a few match ups.
I like all the ideas bouncing around here. Leonin-Quarter lock is something I had maindeck but I can't remember why I abandoned it. Will give it a try again. One worry about running this is that it also shuts down our own evolving wilds, forcing us to run more red mana.
I'm still unsure about Mirran Crusader. I played Haunted Humans a lot and always found him underwhelming without a Destiny. Is it worth reducing our taxes to fit him into the deck?
Phyrexian revoker also sounds great, but his use seems limited in this format. He doesn't seem to affect most of the meta decks a great deal besides shutting down birthing pod and swords. Doesn't seem to do much against wolfrun, humans, and zombies. Or even sword-based decks like delver and g/r aggro.
Suture priest is really one of those cards that work better than they sound. Combo aside, he's like a passive SoWaP that begs to be removed, especially in our aggro environment.
Will do some testing with everyone's ideas and rework the deck when I have time!
I would almost recommend splashing a 3rd color in order to get more dual lands actually. Playing evolving wilds with leonin arbiter turns out to be a bad idea, so having more lands that automatically fix color for you is nice.
The reasons to run Mirran Crusader are many, but here's just a few
-He blocks Geist of Saint Traft and wins, as does Thalia but having more creatures that can block Geist and win is always good
-Pro black/pro green makes him a house versus U/B Zombies, R/G Aggro and Wolfrun
-He swings for 4 on the offense, and becomes insane when a sword or other equipment is attached to him. He provides a quick clock when the deck becomes ready to switch to offense
-He's brought back by Sun Titan, as is every single piece of the deck sans one or two. A Sun Titan online and a Mirran Crusader swing for 10 a turn which is one hell of a clock.
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Currently Playing Legacy WW Stax WW
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3-1-0
10/4/2004 You might end up discarding the card you searched for.
Level 2 DCI Judge Contributor to the Rules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*
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Here is another deck list that works much better for me. It is really not a white weenies deck at this point, but it still has similar ideas to the death and taxes strategy.
I went to three colors to have access to more "dual" lands. The land base I have might still need some work, but I feel it works pretty well as it is right now. It provides more access to red without relying on evolving wilds, which is difficult for us to use due to leonin arbiter. It also provides us a new tool box of cards to work with, namely huntmaster of the fells, which is pretty much another tax all by himself. The birds are also nice for helping us keep and get a mana advantage when we ghost quarter away their lands. They also help you get out turn 2 crusaders and turn 3 huntmasters, and fix your mana quite nicely.
I've playtested this deck, all it played against is UB or RB Zombies. You NEED 4 Mirran Crusaders. There is absolutely no getting around this. He's just too good a card and it's absolutely needed against that kind of jank.
10/4/2004 You might end up discarding the card you searched for.
Level 2 DCI Judge Contributor to the Rules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*
I collect Foil Innistrad Island #254 Current Count : 152
It's pretty sad that Shaman didn't make the cut... She's pretty much dead every time I tap out 4 mana to cast her. I've also had some difficulty flipping her as I'm usually casting something every turn. I've found Angelic Destiny to be a house in this deck because of the fact that we run Crusaders and Abolishers. I tried to run Sun Titan but he seems to push up the curve quite a bit and forces us to run 25 or 26 lands without really needing so many lands for all our other spells. I'm also not convinced about Revoker (Sorry Babam!) because he still doesn't seem relevant in all these matchups, except for planeswalkers. He only shuts down peripheral threats and if he ever makes the matchup tough for the opponent he is way too easily removed with 1 toughness. I would also advocate everyone to run 2 cages maindeck because the only matchups they are irrelevant are humans and wolfrun.
Feel free to try 3 colors with this deck, but what I've learned from playing is that consistency is always of utmost importance. Standard now just doesn't have the mana-fixing to support three colors consistently. I've cut red altogether once Shaman went out and the deck has run much more smoothly. The only big time problem I am facing now is Phyrexian Crusader, who doesn't really see play and who should be nullified by those dismembers.
You're right. Grand Abolisher is probably the weakest creature in this deck. I chose to run him because he messes up with many deck's game plans, limited as it may be. If we remove him A.D would have to go as well due to a lack of hexproof critters in my list. AD seems like a very important card as it allows us to race with sword decks. The only deck which abolisher doesn't seem very useful against is probably humans, but they run mana leak, dismember and saving grasp sometimes.
I really like the sun titan -> ghost quarter interactions, but it seems this deck is not suited to run him. Titans are run in 3 kinds of decks - ramp, control, and reanimator. We are none of those and it would be difficult for us to get to 6 mana to pull off the interaction. Once we hit 6 mana many decks would be able to pay the tax on arbiter anyway.
My sideboard is in a flux atm (i'm just throwing in a bunch of 2-of meta answers). The cards you have listed sound like good sb material so I'll definitely take a look.
As for saving grasp, I ran it in haunted humans and it always felt too reactionary to be very good. It was much better when I was able to save my GosT or Hero of bladehold on top of just perma-exiling stuff, so I'm not sure if it fits in this deck. It's not really a karakas because it uses mana and have only limited runs.
You're right. Grand Abolisher is probably the weakest creature in this deck. I chose to run him because he messes up with many deck's game plans, limited as it may be. If we remove him A.D would have to go as well due to a lack of hexproof critters in my list. AD seems like a very important card as it allows us to race with sword decks. The only deck which abolisher doesn't seem very useful against is probably humans, but they run mana leak, dismember and saving grasp sometimes.
I really like the sun titan -> ghost quarter interactions, but it seems this deck is not suited to run him. Titans are run in 3 kinds of decks - ramp, control, and reanimator. We are none of those and it would be difficult for us to get to 6 mana to pull off the interaction. Once we hit 6 mana many decks would be able to pay the tax on arbiter anyway.
My sideboard is in a flux atm (i'm just throwing in a bunch of 2-of meta answers). The cards you have listed sound like good sb material so I'll definitely take a look.
As for saving grasp, I ran it in haunted humans and it always felt too reactionary to be very good. It was much better when I was able to save my GosT or Hero of bladehold on top of just perma-exiling stuff, so I'm not sure if it fits in this deck. It's not really a karakas because it uses mana and have only limited runs.
Bold'd for highlight. Titans are not just played in these deck archetypes, one or two of Sun Titan was played in post ban Caw because he bought back Swords and Squawks. In this deck he can be part of the Ghost Quarter pseudo-strip mine interaction and possibly cause a lock, he can re-buy 90% of the deck and also re-buy Thalia/Mirran Crusader to put up a formidable clock. There really isn't anything wrong with devoting a slot or two to him as he helps the deck a ton and can give it late game reach if our mana denial/taxing plan doesn't keep our opponents from stage 2/3.
I almost want to play Glimmer Point stag, if only because it's similar to Flickerwisp. It's a shame we don't have Aether Vial. And that he costs 4. At three he could be strong with Sun Titan.
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Currently Playing Legacy WW Stax WW
0-0-0 Vintage GWUNoblefishUWG
3-1-0
10/4/2004 You might end up discarding the card you searched for.
Level 2 DCI Judge Contributor to the Rules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*
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Ok I want you to imagine you are playing U/W delver for a minute. What does your deck rely on? It relies on instants and sorceries, efficient use of mana. It relies on being able to vapor snag and ponder. It relies on a tempo based beat down that uses cheap creatures and cheap spells. Now imagine all of a sudden all your spells cost 1 more mana to cast. You no longer have tempo, if you kept a 1 land hand with a delver and ponders, you can no longer ponder. You can no longer efficiently vapor snag away your opponents creatures. Thalia is a card that you must deal with quickly or you risk letting your tempo completely die, and that generally results in your death.
Now lets take a look at our deck.
Every list has at least 25 creatures.
Every list uses spells almost solely for removal, not for tempo.
Every creature is meant to disrupt the opponents tempo. (in theory at least)
There are definitely builds of D+T that would be hindered by Thalia (a more spell based version).
However, I believe, from testing D+T in other formats (modern, legacy), that Thalia is a definite auto-include 2 or 3-of (you don't want 4 because its legendary), because the deck is built to be more creatures than spells.
Thalia is an all-round good card. Its good vs. aggro because of the first strike, and good vs. control because of the +1 mana ability.
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Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
Here's a list, video, and some opinions I have about the deck. Just a note, I tried this deck a while ago in just U/W with Honor of the Pure, but without Seachrome's, the mana was too bad, and it really lacked a finisher (which Mage Hunter adds).
I know for sure that I will be moving the Thalia's to the SB because there are times it gets in the way of the Unsummon/Fiend Hunter Shenanigans. It just hurts you more against aggro.
I think this deck loses alot against control, so I think the SB would end up being transformative into a White Weenie deck with Honor of the Pure and a couple of 1-drops. Not sure....
Here's a list, video, and some opinions I have about the deck. Just a note, I tried this deck a while ago in just U/W with Honor of the Pure, but without Seachrome's, the mana was too bad, and it really lacked a finisher (which Mage Hunter adds).
I know for sure that I will be moving the Thalia's to the SB because there are times it gets in the way of the Unsummon/Fiend Hunter Shenanigans. It just hurts you more against aggro.
I think this deck loses alot against control, so I think the SB would end up being transformative into a White Weenie deck with Honor of the Pure and a couple of 1-drops. Not sure....
My thoughts on your list:
I agree that thalia gets in the way of your specifc type of D+T, because your plan relies on combo elements (saving grasp/unsummon + o-ring creatures) to "combo" your opponent and grant you an advantage, rather than focusing on mana denial. This approach is similar to the Mangara + Flickerwisp interaction in Modern or the Mangara+Karakas in Legacy. The one difference is that your enablers are non-creatures, unlike the other formats, which is why Thalia may be hurting more than you want it to. However, that is where experience with the deck, skillful play, and knowledge of what your opponent is playing comes in. Determining whether the extra 1 mana will hurt your opponent more than it will hurt you is something you need to determine on a game by game basis. By dropping Thalia early, you are setting yourself up to play a more mana denial game, not the "combo hunter" game.
tl;dr: Thalia is a good card and should be in D+T decks. The numbers may change based on your approach, but it should be in the main deck as it slows every deck in the format, and is almost always relevant.
One more thing: Splashing blue just for saving grasp seems like a bad idea. My $0.02.
Quick remark about the game you played. You shouldn't G-Quarter your opponents land when he has the mana to pay for Arbiter. You are basically Strip mining yourself.
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Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
I think Thalia isn't essential, but she helps a lot. In my experience I have always been happy to see her in any matchup. If anyone has a good non-Thalia list I will add it to the primer as well. Will also be adding any good lists that deviate from my build considerably (splashing another color etc.).
Sauceman I like your build. Could you post a tuned list? It seems you are unhappy with some of your card choices and you are missing a sideboard. Will be adding it to the primer post once you have a build you are happy with.
EDIT: How about something like this for starters? Sideboad can be the same as my decklist in the OP.
Hi all, I've been brewing this deck for a while now, and I'm finally satisfied with the numbers. This deck isn't meant to be super-competitive or anything, so if you're looking for a competitive white-weenie deck go play U/W Humans. However, like the original Legacy deck, it is a ton of fun to play.
What is "Death and Taxes?"
For those not in the know, Death and Taxes is a white weenie deck (played in Legacy and Modern) featuring creatures that annoy your opponents with cool tricks involving Mangara of Corondor, Flickerwisp, and others.
The name "Death and Taxes" derives from an old saying by Benjamin Franklin: "Nothing in this world is consistent except for Death and Taxes." The "Taxes" in the name of the deck refers to playing cards that levy a "tax" from your opponent and effectively switch off their game plan. The "Death" part of the deck name means to, well, literally cause death for your opponent. Who doesn't like that?
Thankfully, there are enough cards in standard that "taxes" the opponent effectively as well as having effective interactions with each other. Let's take a look at the deck.
*Primer coming soon*
The deck (post-avr)
25 Plains
Creatures (26):
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Inquisitor Exarch
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Blade Splicer
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Angel of Jubilation
4 Restoration Angel
2 Cloudshift
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Angelic Destiny
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Divine Offering
2 Demystify
2 Celestial Purge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Day of Judgment
2 Corrosive Gale
(My decklist represents only what I believe to be a good build for this deck. There are other decks with various color combinations that are brewed by others in this thread. Do scroll down and check them out!)
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Legacy
WW Stax WW
0-0-0
Vintage
GWUNoblefishUWG
3-1-0
Level 2 DCI Judge
Contributor to theRules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*I collect Foil Innistrad Island #254 Current Count : 152
Thanks, your feedback makes sense. I don't want to focus on the suture priest comboes with this deck since he's basically there to tax the opponent, but Metamorph sounds like a very good idea as another trick up our sleeves. I'm not going to run mirrans as he doesn't fit the game plan, we're running an answer-heavy deck and mirran is neither an answer nor a tax effect, as powerful as he can be. I will run metamorphs in the annex slots.
Nevermore's usefulness depends on how much you understand the meta. Against rogue decks it would be less useful, but I know the tier 1 and 1.5 decks in my own meta pretty well so I can always play it and call a threat based on their first two or three turns' plays.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
WB tokens WB
Modern
WUBRG Dredge WUBRG
Playing Strip Mine seems correct, if you're going to go that route I suggest Sun Titan. Being able to run a mana-denial plan that can turn into a Strip Mine lock sounds like something I'd love to do in Standard. With this route Meta-morph seems even more correct. Cloning Arbiters, Flipped Shamans and the infinite life gain combo all main deck is just too good to pass up. I'd actually cut Nevermores for Phyrexian Revoker he's a body that taxes and can shut down swords, walkers and other pesky things like Birthing Pods without having to bring in non-creature artifact removal.
Legacy
WW Stax WW
0-0-0
Vintage
GWUNoblefishUWG
3-1-0
Level 2 DCI Judge
Contributor to theRules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*I collect Foil Innistrad Island #254 Current Count : 152
3x Oblivion Ring
Instant (2)
2x Dismember
Land (24)
3x Mountain
6x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Clifftop Retreat
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Arc Trail
4x Lingering Souls
Creature (23)
2x Sun Titan
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Leonin Relic-Warder
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Grand Abolisher
3x Mondronen Shaman
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x fiend hunter
Logic behind changes:
Arc trail is for delver decks or token decks. It is a good way to effectively deal with the first few delvers/tokens without having to rely on board wipes while you get your deck online.
Lingering Souls is an amazing card that adds additional threats and ways to block delver to the deck.
Mirran crusader: This is amazing against zombies and any deck trying to with with a G/B color combination.
Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter: This combination basically gives you strip mines. It also makes playing against wolf run ramp a very easy match up. They have to answer arbiter before they can really do anything else.
Sun Titan: This gets back almost every card in the deck, and it allows you to cycle through ghost quarters for a free strip mine every turn.
I am going to go back and try to find room for suture priest, but I haven't been able to fit it in the deck yet. They just seem to only be relevant in a few match ups.
WB tokens WB
Modern
WUBRG Dredge WUBRG
I'm still unsure about Mirran Crusader. I played Haunted Humans a lot and always found him underwhelming without a Destiny. Is it worth reducing our taxes to fit him into the deck?
Phyrexian revoker also sounds great, but his use seems limited in this format. He doesn't seem to affect most of the meta decks a great deal besides shutting down birthing pod and swords. Doesn't seem to do much against wolfrun, humans, and zombies. Or even sword-based decks like delver and g/r aggro.
Suture priest is really one of those cards that work better than they sound. Combo aside, he's like a passive SoWaP that begs to be removed, especially in our aggro environment.
Will do some testing with everyone's ideas and rework the deck when I have time!
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
WB tokens WB
Modern
WUBRG Dredge WUBRG
-He blocks Geist of Saint Traft and wins, as does Thalia but having more creatures that can block Geist and win is always good
-Pro black/pro green makes him a house versus U/B Zombies, R/G Aggro and Wolfrun
-He swings for 4 on the offense, and becomes insane when a sword or other equipment is attached to him. He provides a quick clock when the deck becomes ready to switch to offense
-He's brought back by Sun Titan, as is every single piece of the deck sans one or two. A Sun Titan online and a Mirran Crusader swing for 10 a turn which is one hell of a clock.
Legacy
WW Stax WW
0-0-0
Vintage
GWUNoblefishUWG
3-1-0
Level 2 DCI Judge
Contributor to theRules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*I collect Foil Innistrad Island #254 Current Count : 152
2x Dismember
4x Arc Trail
Land (24)
3x Sunpetal Grove
4x Plains
4x Clifftop Retreat
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Gavony Township
4x Copperline Gorge
Creature (30)
2x Leonin Relic-Warder
2x Sun Titan
3x Leonin Arbiter
2x Grand Abolisher
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Fiend Hunter
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Mondronen Shaman
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Dismember
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Phyrexian Revoker
I went to three colors to have access to more "dual" lands. The land base I have might still need some work, but I feel it works pretty well as it is right now. It provides more access to red without relying on evolving wilds, which is difficult for us to use due to leonin arbiter. It also provides us a new tool box of cards to work with, namely huntmaster of the fells, which is pretty much another tax all by himself. The birds are also nice for helping us keep and get a mana advantage when we ghost quarter away their lands. They also help you get out turn 2 crusaders and turn 3 huntmasters, and fix your mana quite nicely.
WB tokens WB
Modern
WUBRG Dredge WUBRG
U/B Zombies
R/G Aggro
Swords of X and Y
Mana Dorks (if we're on the play) to tax their plan.
Birthing Pod in the variants that use it.
Wolf-Run
U/W Humans
Sword of X and Y
Not much else, but the deck doesn't seem to be seeing too much play in my meta.
U/W Delver
Hitting their equipment seems like the best thing to do in this match-up
JunkWalkers
Walkers, and lots of them
Let me know if there are anythings I've missed, as I probably have missed a lot of them.
Legacy
WW Stax WW
0-0-0
Vintage
GWUNoblefishUWG
3-1-0
Level 2 DCI Judge
Contributor to theRules Tip Blog check us out for daily rules and tournament tips! *on hiatus, back in 6 months*I collect Foil Innistrad Island #254 Current Count : 152
4 Ghost Quarter
20 Plains
Creatures (25):
4 Grand Abolisher
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Suture Priest
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dismember
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Angelic Destiny
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Divine Offering
2 Demystify
2 Celestial Purge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Nevermore
1 Day of Judgment
It's pretty sad that Shaman didn't make the cut... She's pretty much dead every time I tap out 4 mana to cast her. I've also had some difficulty flipping her as I'm usually casting something every turn. I've found Angelic Destiny to be a house in this deck because of the fact that we run Crusaders and Abolishers. I tried to run Sun Titan but he seems to push up the curve quite a bit and forces us to run 25 or 26 lands without really needing so many lands for all our other spells. I'm also not convinced about Revoker (Sorry Babam!) because he still doesn't seem relevant in all these matchups, except for planeswalkers. He only shuts down peripheral threats and if he ever makes the matchup tough for the opponent he is way too easily removed with 1 toughness. I would also advocate everyone to run 2 cages maindeck because the only matchups they are irrelevant are humans and wolfrun.
Feel free to try 3 colors with this deck, but what I've learned from playing is that consistency is always of utmost importance. Standard now just doesn't have the mana-fixing to support three colors consistently. I've cut red altogether once Shaman went out and the deck has run much more smoothly. The only big time problem I am facing now is Phyrexian Crusader, who doesn't really see play and who should be nullified by those dismembers.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
I really like the sun titan -> ghost quarter interactions, but it seems this deck is not suited to run him. Titans are run in 3 kinds of decks - ramp, control, and reanimator. We are none of those and it would be difficult for us to get to 6 mana to pull off the interaction. Once we hit 6 mana many decks would be able to pay the tax on arbiter anyway.
My sideboard is in a flux atm (i'm just throwing in a bunch of 2-of meta answers). The cards you have listed sound like good sb material so I'll definitely take a look.
As for saving grasp, I ran it in haunted humans and it always felt too reactionary to be very good. It was much better when I was able to save my GosT or Hero of bladehold on top of just perma-exiling stuff, so I'm not sure if it fits in this deck. It's not really a karakas because it uses mana and have only limited runs.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Bold'd for highlight. Titans are not just played in these deck archetypes, one or two of Sun Titan was played in post ban Caw because he bought back Swords and Squawks. In this deck he can be part of the Ghost Quarter pseudo-strip mine interaction and possibly cause a lock, he can re-buy 90% of the deck and also re-buy Thalia/Mirran Crusader to put up a formidable clock. There really isn't anything wrong with devoting a slot or two to him as he helps the deck a ton and can give it late game reach if our mana denial/taxing plan doesn't keep our opponents from stage 2/3.
I almost want to play Glimmer Point stag, if only because it's similar to Flickerwisp. It's a shame we don't have Aether Vial. And that he costs 4. At three he could be strong with Sun Titan.
Legacy
WW Stax WW
0-0-0
Vintage
GWUNoblefishUWG
3-1-0
Level 2 DCI Judge
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Also lets us go more into the Grasp + Hunter and ORings,
My errata'd commons cube
Now lets take a look at our deck.
Every list has at least 25 creatures.
Every list uses spells almost solely for removal, not for tempo.
Every creature is meant to disrupt the opponents tempo. (in theory at least)
Now, who does thalia hurt more?
WB tokens WB
Modern
WUBRG Dredge WUBRG
But against almost everything else, it hurts you much more.
My errata'd commons cube
However, I believe, from testing D+T in other formats (modern, legacy), that Thalia is a definite auto-include 2 or 3-of (you don't want 4 because its legendary), because the deck is built to be more creatures than spells.
Thalia is an all-round good card. Its good vs. aggro because of the first strike, and good vs. control because of the +1 mana ability.
Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
Video: http://youtu.be/WvQ6ZIW4wKk
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Glimmerpoint Stag
4 Mondronan Shaman
4 Saving Grasp
4 Unsummon
LAND [24]
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Clifftop Retreat
8 Plains
3 Island
1 Mountain
Right now I have no SB.
I know for sure that I will be moving the Thalia's to the SB because there are times it gets in the way of the Unsummon/Fiend Hunter Shenanigans. It just hurts you more against aggro.
I think this deck loses alot against control, so I think the SB would end up being transformative into a White Weenie deck with Honor of the Pure and a couple of 1-drops. Not sure....
My thoughts on your list:
I agree that thalia gets in the way of your specifc type of D+T, because your plan relies on combo elements (saving grasp/unsummon + o-ring creatures) to "combo" your opponent and grant you an advantage, rather than focusing on mana denial. This approach is similar to the Mangara + Flickerwisp interaction in Modern or the Mangara+Karakas in Legacy. The one difference is that your enablers are non-creatures, unlike the other formats, which is why Thalia may be hurting more than you want it to. However, that is where experience with the deck, skillful play, and knowledge of what your opponent is playing comes in. Determining whether the extra 1 mana will hurt your opponent more than it will hurt you is something you need to determine on a game by game basis. By dropping Thalia early, you are setting yourself up to play a more mana denial game, not the "combo hunter" game.
tl;dr: Thalia is a good card and should be in D+T decks. The numbers may change based on your approach, but it should be in the main deck as it slows every deck in the format, and is almost always relevant.
One more thing: Splashing blue just for saving grasp seems like a bad idea. My $0.02.
Quick remark about the game you played. You shouldn't G-Quarter your opponents land when he has the mana to pay for Arbiter. You are basically Strip mining yourself.
Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
Sauceman I like your build. Could you post a tuned list? It seems you are unhappy with some of your card choices and you are missing a sideboard. Will be adding it to the primer post once you have a build you are happy with.
EDIT: How about something like this for starters? Sideboad can be the same as my decklist in the OP.
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Island
12 Plains
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Inquisitor Exarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Suture Priest
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Glimmerpoint Stag
4 Stonehorn Dignitary
4 Saving Grasp
2 Dismember
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Name
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Glacial Fortress
15 Plains
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Mentor of the Meek
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 geist of saint traft
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Divine Offering
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Celestial Purge
2 Thalia
How is the metamorph combo doing?
My errata'd commons cube