That's a different approach that might also work with Thalia, trying to control the board. However, I'm somewhat worried about the deck being pulled in two directions at once if I try to do aggro and control simultaneously. At the moment, I'd like to focus on the aggro side of Thalia, although there are some cards that fit in well with aggro and also control mana availability (the Armageddon effects, mainly). Nothing against control variants of a Thalia EDH deck, of course; they're just not what I'm trying to do.
Part of what's appealing about this deck is how unimportant Thalia actually is. She's hugely helpful if she is in play, but it's not much of a setback if she gets hated out.
I've been somewhat disappointed with Gideon Jura recently, so the first change to this deck is to take him out. Added Glorious Anthem to test over Divine Sacrament and Jihad, though those are also under consideration. (Also don't own a Jihad, so that would be tested as a proxy for a while before considering shelling out $30+.) Thoughts?
I think Divine Sacrament is leagues better than Anthem, even if it does pump all W critters. For the same cost, all you need is threshold which should be easy to get as WW tends to die and not really care as there is always more critters to replace them.
Personally, I don't think Jihad is worth going out of your way and dropping the $30 on. If you really wanted another Anthem, just play Glorious in this slot instead of cutting it for Sacrament. No need, IMHO, to spend that kind of cash on a situational anthem.
I think Divine Sacrament is leagues better than Anthem, even if it does pump all W critters. For the same cost, all you need is threshold which should be easy to get as WW tends to die and not really care as there is always more critters to replace them.
Personally, I don't think Jihad is worth going out of your way and dropping the $30 on. If you really wanted another Anthem, just play Glorious in this slot instead of cutting it for Sacrament. No need, IMHO, to spend that kind of cash on a situational anthem.
What worries me about Sacrament are opposing aggro decks, which tend to be my worst matchups and often run a lot of white. But it is probably better. I will try out both for a while, changing to Sacrament on the decklist.
I'm also in the market for a replacement for Ronom Unicorn and some of the other two-drops. Since I almost always want to be playing Thalia on turn 2, the two-drops are less important than they might otherwise be. Ronom Unicorn has been especially less effective than I'd like. I considered Leonin Relic-Warder, but decided that it gets killed far too often and too easily to be much use in removing problematic opposing cards, though having the ability to hit artifacts is nice. Thoughts?
Relic-Warder is good, I think you're overthinking it. He's like Tidehollow Sculler but for EDH instead of Alara's Standard. And he can hit a Mind Stone your opponent needs to pay for noncreature kitty hate..
Mentor of the Meek has also been disappointing. I tend to either have the mana but have enough pump effects that I don't have creatures with power 2 or less coming into play, or I don't have the extra mana to activate him. On the other hand, the times when he does work, he's been a huge boon to the deck. Are there are similar effects that I should be considering?
This is going to require more testing (it and Eiganjo Castle). I prefer more Plains for better odds of Emeria, the Sky Ruin activating (since an active Emeria is basically an auto-win and can really save games that look lost around turn 7-9), but Flagstones and Eiganjo can be situationally useful as well (and the odds are relatively low that they alone will block Emeria becoming active). Still considering; would like to hear about others' experiences with Emeria. I haven't played a deck that made use of it before.
What worries me about Sacrament are opposing aggro decks, which tend to be my worst matchups and often run a lot of white. But it is probably better. I will try out both for a while, changing to Sacrament on the decklist.
I'm also in the market for a replacement for Ronom Unicorn and some of the other two-drops. Since I almost always want to be playing Thalia on turn 2, the two-drops are less important than they might otherwise be. Ronom Unicorn has been especially less effective than I'd like. I considered Leonin Relic-Warder, but decided that it gets killed far too often and too easily to be much use in removing problematic opposing cards, though having the ability to hit artifacts is nice. Thoughts?
If it's a better Ronom Unicorn you're after, then Warpriest of Thune seems applicable. I wouldn't replace Relic-Warder with him, but Warpriest should definitely be here.
If it's a better Ronom Unicorn you're after, then Warpriest of Thune seems applicable. I wouldn't replace Relic-Warder with him, but Warpriest should definitely be here.
Forgot about him. Might be worth it.
Also considering White Knight to replace Knight of Meadowgrain. Thoughts on pro-black vs. lifelink? The life isn't much help usually, and pro-black helps against some spot removal. OTOH, if I can get Sword of Feast and Famine or Sword of Light and Shadow out, the extra instance of pro-black is pretty pointless. White Knight is also a Human, so he boosts Champion of the Parish. I suppose I could slot War Priest of Thune in there, too. Or Silver Knight? No one in my play group plays much red, but in tournaments/online of course that won't be true.
If you're worried about red, Knight of Meadowgrain probably hates it out about as hard as Silver Knight. Red wants you dead.
Not sure about White Knight, but the moment I start mulliganing with a monoblack deck against Thalia as a general, I'm looking for Damnation or tutors that find Damnation or Infest. So I'm not sure it's the best idea.
If you're worried about red, Knight of Meadowgrain probably hates it out about as hard as Silver Knight. Red wants you dead.
Not sure about White Knight, but the moment I start mulliganing with a monoblack deck against Thalia as a general, I'm looking for Damnation or tutors that find Damnation or Infest. So I'm not sure it's the best idea.
Certainly what I would do, too. I do see the occasional Go for the Throat or Tragic Slip or Dismember other similar black targeted removal, but you're right that the major threat from black is the board-clearers, not targeted removal. The ability to bypass blocking black creatures is also pretty small, and first strike helps with that. For now I think Knight of Meadowgrain stays, although War Priest of Thune is still under consideration to replace it.
Any insight on Lightning Greaves v. Swiftfoot Boots v. Whispersilk Cloak? I've settled on the Greaves for now because (1) They're the least mana-intensive and (2) I'm only really looking to protect Thalia, not beef her up to be a big hitter. Whispersilk Cloak is appealing because it could be used on other stuff to great effect with the Swords, but it's also much more expensive to get into play and equipped. Swiftfoot Boots doesn't seem any better than Lightning Greaves for my purposes since Thalia isn't going to be equipped with much else. (I'd rather equip the Swords or Jitte to something with evasion.) The redundancy might be nice, but I'm not totally sold since Thalia is not essential and cheap to replay. (And, if I were to keep the Greaves in and add the Boots, I'd need to take something out--but what?)
I would run Greaves by themselves. If you have another creature in play, and you probably do, Greaves is just as good as Swiftfoot Boots against an opponent that has tapped out. I wouldn't consider running both, if you want equipment redundancy you should add a Steelshaper's Gift before adding "copies" of the same equipment. Its flexibility means you're adding a second copy of every equipment in your deck, which is worth a white mana and even an extra Thalia tax, especially when it picks out Swords that hate particular generals.
I don't see Whispersilk Cloak often in EDH decks and I think you have enough evasion to skip it.
[Just realized that Grand Abolisher is missing from the deck... but what to cut? Pretty much everything in the two-drop slot is very effective. I suppose that's another possible replacement for Knight of Meadowgrain.
Also considering dropping Skullclamp for Steelshaper's Gift. First, the positives of Skullclamp. Clamping Doomed Traveler is a nice play. It also works well with other x/1 cards that are no longer useful, like Weathered Wayfarer once I have plenty of lands in play and in hand. It also turns Thraben Doomsayer into a card that reads: ,T: Draw two cards, and Elspeth, Knight-Errant into a card that reads: 1, +1: Draw two cards. But overall I find Skullclamp to be less useful than its infamy would suggest, in part because I run so many pump effects that it's actually fairly rare for me to have x/1 creatures in play after turn 4 or so since they're all being pumped up. Steelshaper's Gift was always in the back of my mind as a card I wanted in the deck (extra copy of every Sword and the Jitte, as well as Greaves in a pinch), but I wasn't sure how to fit it in. Still, I'm not at all certain that Skullclamp is the right thing to go. Perhaps Karn Liberated should go instead; I rarely find myself with the 8 mana needed to cast him with Thalia out unless there are some ridiculous Land Tax shenanigans in the early game and things go on longer than I would like, though he is a huge bomb when he does get in play.
Edit: I think I talked myself into tossing Karn for Steelshaper's Gift. That's done.
Also testing Mana Tithe. It usually sucks, but it's so nice to have an answer to the opponent's Wrath or Infest when they've tapped out on turn 5 to clear your board.
You might want to cut Knight of the White Orchid. It's not as good as it looks. It's only useful when you're on the draw, and even on the draw you can't play it until turn 3, and if you've filled those conditions what you get is a bit of card advantage and ramp. The point of ramp is to play an expensive card earlier than you normally would, though, and you only have four five drops that you could play a turn earlier.
Knight of White Orchid and Knight of Meadowgrain were legal at the same time in Standard. B/W tokens had 2-3 Cloudgoat Rangers as the only five drop and usually wanted to play anthem effects before the rangers anyway, so it passed on Knight of the White Orchid and use Meadowgrain instead. R/W tokens made the same call, if I'm not mistaken, electing not to hasten it's 2-3 Siege Gang Commanders. The only deck I remember using it was U/W Reveillark control, because it was running 4 copies of the star 5 drop and could trigger the Knight's ETB effect multiple times in a game (and then use the excess mana by drawing with Mulldrifter).
If it's a better Ronom Unicorn you're after, then Warpriest of Thune seems applicable. I wouldn't replace Relic-Warder with him, but Warpriest should definitely be here.
Not sure if this is better or worse but: Wispmare has the optional W to evoke for its effect or comes down turn 3 with flying and can block most small aggro critters and simply kill the 1 tougness critters like Flying Men strategies from Edric or Sygg decks.
You might want to cut Knight of the White Orchid. It's not as good as it looks. It's only useful when you're on the draw, and even on the draw you can't play it until turn 3, and if you've filled those conditions what you get is a bit of card advantage and ramp. The point of ramp is to play an expensive card earlier than you normally would, though, and you only have four five drops that you could play a turn earlier.
Knight of White Orchid and Knight of Meadowgrain were legal at the same time in Standard. B/W tokens had 2-3 Cloudgoat Rangers as the only five drop and usually wanted to play anthem effects before the rangers anyway, so it passed on Knight of the White Orchid and use Meadowgrain instead. R/W tokens made the same call, if I'm not mistaken, electing not to hasten it's 2-3 Siege Gang Commanders. The only deck I remember using it was U/W Reveillark control, because it was running 4 copies of the star 5 drop and could trigger the Knight's ETB effect multiple times in a game (and then use the excess mana by drawing with Mulldrifter).
A couple of things that have made KotWO better for me than it might normally be.
1. I always have a two-drop (Thalia), so having to wait until turn three to play KotWO isn't an issue. There are actually fairly limited circumstances where I want to play something other than Thalia on turn two (maybe if I have a Jitte or Honor of the Pure in my hand and want to get them out before Thalia starts taxing them).
2. An enormous number of EDH decks run some sort of land ramp (whether it's a part-green deck with a bunch of land-search effects or some other color using Wayfarer's Bauble and similar cards), so, odds are they've put an extra land in play by turn three, and KotWO's ability will trigger.
Doesn't mean I won't feel like it's disappointing in the future. However, it doesn't feel disappointing yet. That extra mana is very useful not just for five-drops but for playing and instantly equipping some of my equipment. Also, it's always nice to leave four mana open for a surprise Dust Elemental in response to a board-clearing effect, so the extra mana is very helpful.
Not sure if this is better or worse but: Wispmare has the optional W to evoke for its effect or comes down turn 3 with flying and can block most small aggro critters and simply kill the 1 tougness critters like Flying Men strategies from Edric or Sygg decks.
Worth considering. I haven't found Enchantments to be so large a threat to need more than the few hate pieces I have now, but I also haven't played against Zur recently.
Been playing around with a few cards and thought about Fiend Hunter. I'm curious about his interaction with Commanders. If I play Fiend Hunter and exile an opposing Commander with him, can my opponent recast the Commander, or does he have to wait the Commander comes back when Fiend Hunter leaves play? If my opponent can recast the Commander, what happens when Fiend Hunter leaves play? (Nothing, because the card removed by him is in play? But what if it's no longer in play--say, he recast it, and I exiled it again with Swords to Plowshares?)
I believe if you remove their general with him then they have a choice as a replacement effect of either letting their general remain removed from the game with fiend hunter or putting him back in the command zone. If he goes back to the command zone then they can recast him and he will not come back from fiend hunter getting killed.
If they let their general get removed then they will need to kill fiend hunter to get the general back.
I believe if you remove their general with him then they have a choice as a replacement effect of either letting their general remain removed from the game with fiend hunter or putting him back in the command zone. If he goes back to the command zone then they can recast him and he will not come back from fiend hunter getting killed.
If they let their general get removed then they will need to kill fiend hunter to get the general back.
I was curious if the Fiend Hunter's second effect can still trigger if they do put the Commander back in the command zone rather than letting it be exiled. The way Fiend Hunter is worded, it's not clear whether its second ability would still apply if, when it dies, the card it exiled is still exiled, but not as a result of Fiend Hunter. The example I provided was bad because my opponent will never allow his Commander to be permanently exiled by Swords to Plowshares--though the question is still relevant if he lets Oblivion Ring exile his Commander on the assumption that it would be easier to kill Oblivion Ring than to recast his Commander.
So:
1. Fiend Hunter comes into play, exiling the Commander
2. Opponent returns the Commander to the command zone instead
3. Opponent recasts the Commander, returning him to play
4. Oblivion Ring comes into play, exiling the Commander again
5. Opponent lets Commander be exiled
6. Fiend Hunter leaves play
Does the Commander return to play?
Mostly pedantry. It has made me feel that Fiend Hunter merits inclusion, though. (Not in replacement of Oblivion Ring, though. The ability to get rid of enchantments and artifacts is not to be underestimated. Not sure what to replace.)
Okay, that was a silly side tangent. I figured the answer had to be that Oblivion Ring et al. lose track of cards they exiled that go to the command zone, but I wasn't certain. Thanks
Crovax and Kor Cartographer have been cut for Fiend Hunter and Grand Abolisher. Might put Kor Cartographer back in for Knight of the White Orchid, though.
I've found I get mana flooded more often than I'm mana screwed, so the land count dropped by one (despite already being a very-low-for-EDH 32 lands). I also dropped the Emeria engine, as I'm pretty unlikely to get 8 lands out anyway. Testing out Mana Tithe in there to see if it's at all helpful. Also added War Priest of Thune and Journey to Nowhere, the latter partially because it's another solution to the unbanned Emrakul, the Aeons Torn tricked into play, which is frustrating for this deck to say the least.
Also discovered the obscure March of Souls today, which I might add in as a usable board sweeper alongside Austere Command (which I kind of don't like, since I often have to destroy a few of my permanents as well--I almost always choose the large creatures option, but I usually have good artifacts and enchantments in play). It's a great solution to hexproof/shroud Commanders and other threats (including, again, Emrakul), and it replaces my creatures, unlike other board sweepers. Not sure where to put it, though, and it's kind of mana intensive, accounting for Thalia.
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Creatures (49)
1 Aven Skirmisher
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Lantern Kami
1 Mardu Woe-Reaper
1 Mother of Runes
1 Soldier of the Pantheon
1 Soltari Foot Soldier
1 Student of Warfare
1 Suntail Hawk
1 Topplegeist
1 Containment Priest
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Kor Aeronaut
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Precinct Captain
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Serra Avenger
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Priest
1 Soltari Trooper
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thalia's Lieutenant
1 Banisher Priest
1 Blade Splicer
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Bygone Bishop
1 Emancipation Angel
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Flickerwisp
1 Glowrider
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Soltari Champion
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Celestial Crusader
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Restoration Angel
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Instants (4)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tithe
1 Renounce the Guilds
Sorceries (2)
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Land Tax
1 Honor of the Pure
Artifacts (7)
1 Skullclamp
1 Mask of Memory
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Winter Orb
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Tangle Wire
Lands (34)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
19 Plains
More to come...
As a bonus, a (untested) Tiny Leaders version:
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Creatures (24)
1 Aven Skirmisher
1 Champion of the Parish
1 Lantern Kami
1 Mardu Woe-Reaper
1 Mother of Runes
1 Soldier of the Pantheon
1 Soltari Foot Soldier
1 Suntail Hawk
1 Containment Priest
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Kor Aeronaut
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Precinct Captain
1 Soltari Monk
1 Soltari Priest
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Banisher Priest
1 Blade Splicer
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Soltari Champion
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Last Breath
1 Land Tax
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Æther Vial
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Lands (17)
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Rishadan Port
1 Wasteland
10 Plains
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Glowrider
1 Renounce the Guilds
1 Revoke Existence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Cavern of Souls
That's a different approach that might also work with Thalia, trying to control the board. However, I'm somewhat worried about the deck being pulled in two directions at once if I try to do aggro and control simultaneously. At the moment, I'd like to focus on the aggro side of Thalia, although there are some cards that fit in well with aggro and also control mana availability (the Armageddon effects, mainly). Nothing against control variants of a Thalia EDH deck, of course; they're just not what I'm trying to do.
Part of what's appealing about this deck is how unimportant Thalia actually is. She's hugely helpful if she is in play, but it's not much of a setback if she gets hated out.
Personally, I don't think Jihad is worth going out of your way and dropping the $30 on. If you really wanted another Anthem, just play Glorious in this slot instead of cutting it for Sacrament. No need, IMHO, to spend that kind of cash on a situational anthem.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
What worries me about Sacrament are opposing aggro decks, which tend to be my worst matchups and often run a lot of white. But it is probably better. I will try out both for a while, changing to Sacrament on the decklist.
I'm also in the market for a replacement for Ronom Unicorn and some of the other two-drops. Since I almost always want to be playing Thalia on turn 2, the two-drops are less important than they might otherwise be. Ronom Unicorn has been especially less effective than I'd like. I considered Leonin Relic-Warder, but decided that it gets killed far too often and too easily to be much use in removing problematic opposing cards, though having the ability to hit artifacts is nice. Thoughts?
Mentor of the Meek has also been disappointing. I tend to either have the mana but have enough pump effects that I don't have creatures with power 2 or less coming into play, or I don't have the extra mana to activate him. On the other hand, the times when he does work, he's been a huge boon to the deck. Are there are similar effects that I should be considering?
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
This is going to require more testing (it and Eiganjo Castle). I prefer more Plains for better odds of Emeria, the Sky Ruin activating (since an active Emeria is basically an auto-win and can really save games that look lost around turn 7-9), but Flagstones and Eiganjo can be situationally useful as well (and the odds are relatively low that they alone will block Emeria becoming active). Still considering; would like to hear about others' experiences with Emeria. I haven't played a deck that made use of it before.
If it's a better Ronom Unicorn you're after, then Warpriest of Thune seems applicable. I wouldn't replace Relic-Warder with him, but Warpriest should definitely be here.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Forgot about him. Might be worth it.
Also considering White Knight to replace Knight of Meadowgrain. Thoughts on pro-black vs. lifelink? The life isn't much help usually, and pro-black helps against some spot removal. OTOH, if I can get Sword of Feast and Famine or Sword of Light and Shadow out, the extra instance of pro-black is pretty pointless. White Knight is also a Human, so he boosts Champion of the Parish. I suppose I could slot War Priest of Thune in there, too. Or Silver Knight? No one in my play group plays much red, but in tournaments/online of course that won't be true.
Not sure about White Knight, but the moment I start mulliganing with a monoblack deck against Thalia as a general, I'm looking for Damnation or tutors that find Damnation or Infest. So I'm not sure it's the best idea.
Certainly what I would do, too. I do see the occasional Go for the Throat or Tragic Slip or Dismember other similar black targeted removal, but you're right that the major threat from black is the board-clearers, not targeted removal. The ability to bypass blocking black creatures is also pretty small, and first strike helps with that. For now I think Knight of Meadowgrain stays, although War Priest of Thune is still under consideration to replace it.
Any insight on Lightning Greaves v. Swiftfoot Boots v. Whispersilk Cloak? I've settled on the Greaves for now because (1) They're the least mana-intensive and (2) I'm only really looking to protect Thalia, not beef her up to be a big hitter. Whispersilk Cloak is appealing because it could be used on other stuff to great effect with the Swords, but it's also much more expensive to get into play and equipped. Swiftfoot Boots doesn't seem any better than Lightning Greaves for my purposes since Thalia isn't going to be equipped with much else. (I'd rather equip the Swords or Jitte to something with evasion.) The redundancy might be nice, but I'm not totally sold since Thalia is not essential and cheap to replay. (And, if I were to keep the Greaves in and add the Boots, I'd need to take something out--but what?)
I don't see Whispersilk Cloak often in EDH decks and I think you have enough evasion to skip it.
Also considering dropping Skullclamp for Steelshaper's Gift. First, the positives of Skullclamp. Clamping Doomed Traveler is a nice play. It also works well with other x/1 cards that are no longer useful, like Weathered Wayfarer once I have plenty of lands in play and in hand. It also turns Thraben Doomsayer into a card that reads: ,T: Draw two cards, and Elspeth, Knight-Errant into a card that reads: 1, +1: Draw two cards. But overall I find Skullclamp to be less useful than its infamy would suggest, in part because I run so many pump effects that it's actually fairly rare for me to have x/1 creatures in play after turn 4 or so since they're all being pumped up. Steelshaper's Gift was always in the back of my mind as a card I wanted in the deck (extra copy of every Sword and the Jitte, as well as Greaves in a pinch), but I wasn't sure how to fit it in. Still, I'm not at all certain that Skullclamp is the right thing to go. Perhaps Karn Liberated should go instead; I rarely find myself with the 8 mana needed to cast him with Thalia out unless there are some ridiculous Land Tax shenanigans in the early game and things go on longer than I would like, though he is a huge bomb when he does get in play.
Edit: I think I talked myself into tossing Karn for Steelshaper's Gift. That's done.
Also testing Mana Tithe. It usually sucks, but it's so nice to have an answer to the opponent's Wrath or Infest when they've tapped out on turn 5 to clear your board.
Knight of White Orchid and Knight of Meadowgrain were legal at the same time in Standard. B/W tokens had 2-3 Cloudgoat Rangers as the only five drop and usually wanted to play anthem effects before the rangers anyway, so it passed on Knight of the White Orchid and use Meadowgrain instead. R/W tokens made the same call, if I'm not mistaken, electing not to hasten it's 2-3 Siege Gang Commanders. The only deck I remember using it was U/W Reveillark control, because it was running 4 copies of the star 5 drop and could trigger the Knight's ETB effect multiple times in a game (and then use the excess mana by drawing with Mulldrifter).
Not sure if this is better or worse but: Wispmare has the optional W to evoke for its effect or comes down turn 3 with flying and can block most small aggro critters and simply kill the 1 tougness critters like Flying Men strategies from Edric or Sygg decks.
A couple of things that have made KotWO better for me than it might normally be.
1. I always have a two-drop (Thalia), so having to wait until turn three to play KotWO isn't an issue. There are actually fairly limited circumstances where I want to play something other than Thalia on turn two (maybe if I have a Jitte or Honor of the Pure in my hand and want to get them out before Thalia starts taxing them).
2. An enormous number of EDH decks run some sort of land ramp (whether it's a part-green deck with a bunch of land-search effects or some other color using Wayfarer's Bauble and similar cards), so, odds are they've put an extra land in play by turn three, and KotWO's ability will trigger.
Doesn't mean I won't feel like it's disappointing in the future. However, it doesn't feel disappointing yet. That extra mana is very useful not just for five-drops but for playing and instantly equipping some of my equipment. Also, it's always nice to leave four mana open for a surprise Dust Elemental in response to a board-clearing effect, so the extra mana is very helpful.
Worth considering. I haven't found Enchantments to be so large a threat to need more than the few hate pieces I have now, but I also haven't played against Zur recently.
Been playing around with a few cards and thought about Fiend Hunter. I'm curious about his interaction with Commanders. If I play Fiend Hunter and exile an opposing Commander with him, can my opponent recast the Commander, or does he have to wait the Commander comes back when Fiend Hunter leaves play? If my opponent can recast the Commander, what happens when Fiend Hunter leaves play? (Nothing, because the card removed by him is in play? But what if it's no longer in play--say, he recast it, and I exiled it again with Swords to Plowshares?)
If they let their general get removed then they will need to kill fiend hunter to get the general back.
I was curious if the Fiend Hunter's second effect can still trigger if they do put the Commander back in the command zone rather than letting it be exiled. The way Fiend Hunter is worded, it's not clear whether its second ability would still apply if, when it dies, the card it exiled is still exiled, but not as a result of Fiend Hunter. The example I provided was bad because my opponent will never allow his Commander to be permanently exiled by Swords to Plowshares--though the question is still relevant if he lets Oblivion Ring exile his Commander on the assumption that it would be easier to kill Oblivion Ring than to recast his Commander.
So:
1. Fiend Hunter comes into play, exiling the Commander
2. Opponent returns the Commander to the command zone instead
3. Opponent recasts the Commander, returning him to play
4. Oblivion Ring comes into play, exiling the Commander again
5. Opponent lets Commander be exiled
6. Fiend Hunter leaves play
Does the Commander return to play?
Mostly pedantry. It has made me feel that Fiend Hunter merits inclusion, though. (Not in replacement of Oblivion Ring, though. The ability to get rid of enchantments and artifacts is not to be underestimated. Not sure what to replace.)
Crovax and Kor Cartographer have been cut for Fiend Hunter and Grand Abolisher. Might put Kor Cartographer back in for Knight of the White Orchid, though.
+ Flagstones of Trokair
+ Eiganjo Castle
+ Mana Tithe
+ War Priest of Thune
+ Journey to Nowhere
- Emeria, the Sky Ruin
- Plains (2)
- Expedition Map
- Knight of the White Orchid
I've found I get mana flooded more often than I'm mana screwed, so the land count dropped by one (despite already being a very-low-for-EDH 32 lands). I also dropped the Emeria engine, as I'm pretty unlikely to get 8 lands out anyway. Testing out Mana Tithe in there to see if it's at all helpful. Also added War Priest of Thune and Journey to Nowhere, the latter partially because it's another solution to the unbanned Emrakul, the Aeons Torn tricked into play, which is frustrating for this deck to say the least.
Also discovered the obscure March of Souls today, which I might add in as a usable board sweeper alongside Austere Command (which I kind of don't like, since I often have to destroy a few of my permanents as well--I almost always choose the large creatures option, but I usually have good artifacts and enchantments in play). It's a great solution to hexproof/shroud Commanders and other threats (including, again, Emrakul), and it replaces my creatures, unlike other board sweepers. Not sure where to put it, though, and it's kind of mana intensive, accounting for Thalia.