Vintage is a hard format to control and is dying off. This is sad because the game was originally based off this one format and should stick around until the end.
I've never actually played in a tournament, and have played the game since 1995. The reason I don't play in a tournament setting is because everything I've ever read about it, and I do follow it closely, points to the direction that there is no creativity in deck building as the same mother effing top 4 or 5 decks are played and that is it. Also card prices are very high and drastically reduces the barrier of entry for new players.
So after reading through a lot of threads over the last few years about the format as a whole and player complaints about the banned/restricted list and pricey barrier of entry, I came up with the following solution:
A point-based deck design where each card is given a value based solely upon it's power in the format (not price or it's limited print run) and only allowing a maximum point base to each deck.
I.E. Each deck is only allowed 300 points.
Black lotus = 50
Ancestral Recall = 40
Time Walk = 35
Timetwister = 10
Each mox = 25
Library of Alexandria = 40
Mishra's Workshop = 30
Bazaar of Baghdad = 15
Mana Drain = 25
Force of Will = 20
Yawgmoth's Will = 30
Demonic Tutor = 25
Time Vault = 50
Etc.
Keep all power restricted and other cards that limit a variety of competitive decks in the format and, most importantly, the fun of the game. Here are some examples of these types of cards:
Demonic Tutor
Time Vault
Yawgmoth's Will
Trinisphere
Tolarian Academy
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Stripmine
Tinker
Balance
Unrestrict Library of Alexandria for crying outloud because no one has been able to play the freaking thing since about 3 months after its original printing (yes I am bitter about this because it's entirely too slow for Vintage and banned in everything else, therefore only good in casual in which case it's actually too good)
A couple other things:
Ban any card with storm because it's effing boring. I'm so sick of uncounterable combos that are easy to pull off and we've all seen a hundred times. The format lacks creativity, that's its biggest problem for me.
Ban every wish card because the game should only be played with your actual deck, not bullcrap from outside the game. Seriously why does this game involve cards that people didn't skillfully think to put in their deck or forgot to prepare for certain cards? If you made a mistake and should have added something to your deck, it's your fault alone and you can swap within your sideboard before the next game. Take the loss like a man. If you want to keep your deck to 60 cards then you shouldn't have access to 75 during actual gameplay.
I realize this is a lot of bannings, but I do feel they were mistakes and took something away from the game. Card designers are doing this too often. We don't need 7 new creature abilities within each set, nor do we need creatures that have 6 abilities and are just annoying to read or can't die in a new way.
Any card that probably should be restricted and isn't on the list I created above like Wasteland, Fastbond, Lion's Eye Diamond, and other tutors, just give them high points. Simply put, Vintage players want to play with their cards and the best ones are restricted which basically kill them altogether. So allow players to use them, but make it cost them dearly by taking up a lot of points in the deck. This is with the exception to my comments above about storm, wishes, split/flip, and level-up cards because I personally don't think they should be in the game and were mistakes.
What I think the result would be:
- Cards wouldn't lose value
- A deck couldn't hold all the power 9 without being able to play anything else
- The format would be slower, but still capable of being fast
- Players could use cards that have been restricted for entirely to long
- Unskilled cards with storm and wish cards would finally be eliminated
- Eliminate proxies, with a limited point-base per deck you don't need every expensive card so decks will be cheaper in general. Or, at least, a tremendous amount of inexpensive cards will be more effective and shouldn't be worth so many points.
- And most importantly, I highly doubt the format will only have a few top decks that everyone reads online and takes to a tournament and when they win think they should be glorified... It's just pathetic to steal a deck design and think you are good.
Anyways please comment on this, and don't be insulting, just simply state your opinion kindly and explain why certain things would work or why you think they wouldn't. I would like this idea to take off and not just be something this site shuts the thread down for because people can't be civil.
Thank you kindly,
Ryan
P.S. The point value I gave specific cards in this topic obviously aren't final and would be adjusted by Wizards accordingly. As new cards are released or old cards become overpowered, they can simply adjust the point value rather than restricting them altogether and making the card not playable as a one-of.
This really has nothing to do with vintage, its just an alteration of the current format and really doesnt belong here. So I am going to move it to magic general.
This would do nothing to address the inherent weakness in competitive vintage...that being that there are only about 5-6 thousand of each power nine card printed. Maybe 2k of each playable. Baring those in the hands of collectors that leaves us with something on the order of 1000 people world wide capable of playing competitive sanctioned vintage.
That's it's biggest failing.
My numbers may be off but they still show how little full power is floating around
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The particular appeal of Vintage is that it is an official Magic format in which players can use all their cards*. Changing the underlying rules or banning cards misses the point of the format.
That's not to say your idea is bad. It just doesn't do anything to fix Vintage, because it isn't Vintage at all. If you're really interested in pursuing your format, try formalizing some rules and posting them in the casual section. If people like it, it may catch on and grow. However, like urweak said, similar point-based systems have been suggested before, but none have had widespread success to date.
* = Obviously, Vintage has a few banned cards, but these are only prohibited due to the problems they cause in a tournament setting. Cards are not banned due to power level in Vintage.
There's not much that can really be done about Vintage. It's a great format, but card availability is an obvious problem. The only answer is that there will be a set number of players are allowed to play Vintage. That number will always go down, but won't be able to go up. It's a shame, but that's just how it is.
The post is legitimate. He posted the same thread on magictraders, then got really rude/insulting when pretty much everyone told him it was a bad idea.
He fights you not because you've wronged him, but because you're there.
<+RicoSuave> andy doesn't like grass on his playing field
<+RicoSuave> the easiest answer is to flip em over and play in the mud
<BrassMan> OBV
<BrassMan> WAIT WHAT?
Why don't we just unban everything, including ante cards and dexterity cards? Then we can truly have the best vintage format ever with power plays like turn 1 4 mox sapphire, 4 ancestrals, drop 10 more moxen and then brain freeze. Classy.
Thror please dont turn this into motl. Clearly people are much nicer here. I felt attacked and annoyed because no one would give a proper argument with any reasoning behind their opinion.
It was later mentioned to me that people have tried to start a point-based approach before and it didn't go very far. I just think it would be cool to have a format where more cards are playable again and if someone wants to break one hey are limited elsewhere. It would reduce the cost a little, and I'm sure there would be a lot more types of decks. Thought more people would be interested in this idea.
It's clear now that this is not "saving" vintage, as I guess nothing will. But it would be the only format that allowed these old, fun cards to be played again and more players could join.
Vintage is vintage because of what it is. What YOU want to make it is something entirely different.
Having said that, you can't save vintage for 2 main reasons.
1. The big cards in vintage are more scarce than volcanos in NJ. And as time goes by, fewer of these cards will be available. With the reprint list, this is a one way spiral to hell.
2. Because of the limited availability of the cards, the prices are insane. Not everybody can afford them. This won't change either. That means even fewer people to play the format.
Please don't get me wrong. I love Vintage. If I had people to play against, it is all I would play. As far as I'm concerned, every other format is a distant second at best. I play them out of necessity to have something to play. But Vintage will always be my first love.
The format is dying and someday will be dead. As it is there's only one WotC recognized MAIN event for Vintage unless there's something going on that I don't know about. I think Gencon is it.
Let the format rest in peace. It had a nice run but it's over. Nobody short of rich preppy boys are going to shell out $3,000 for a Black Lotus.
There could be a new format in what you are proposing, it kind of reminds me of an obscure australicentric format ive heard about (i believe it's called pointed highlander)
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Also, to better explain myself and what I think is fun about Magic, my favorite part is designing different decks with versatility rather than one focus. I realize that wouldn't compete in vintage unless it were so unprepared for bc it is entirely different. I just don't like seeing the same decks for years over. And I don't like building decks that go specifically against one other deck because every game is played like the one before a lot of times. That just gets boring. That's te mindset I come from after playing for this many years. It's kind of like hearing a song you love for the first time and it gets played on the radio 10 times a day. I just get burnt out.
So maybe Vintage isn't for me, but it's the only format that allows my cards to be played, and that is infinitely limiting, especially when the format is about dead.
Does anyone think they will create a new format or expand a current one to allow these cards to see play again? If not, why are the P9 still worth so much?
The easy way to do this (I think) is to stipulate maximum deck values using an agreed upon price source at a certain cut-off, easy to do with a deck building application that just totals up your deck price. My buddies and I have tried doing this with standard (for fun) and stipulated a $30 max using TCGPlayer mid-prices and it seemed to work well. For vintage or legacy you could adjust the limit to something acceptable, fun, and competitive.
The advantage of using this method over the points method is that the points method is somewhat arbitrary, when using pricing information the market has already spoken about which cards are valuable and they're priced accordingly. It also makes the format very accessible if everyone knows up front what the costs to get into it are e.g. for a $200 event you'd know that building a deck could cost you up to $200 (and you'd still be competitive) or if you've got the cards you could play in a $1,000 event. Eventually people would figure out which dollar amount events were healthiest and to their liking.
If I remember correctly pointed highlander is a 60 card singleton format where many broken cards have a point value and decks have a max point value.
An Australian player would likely know more (I've only looked it up once)
Honestly the legacy banlist is only 62 cards (unless my count was off) most of them banned or restricted in vintage. That might be a better format for you, it's meta is wide open and it's well supported
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everything I've ever read about it, and I do follow it closely, points to the direction that there is no creativity in deck building as the same mother effing top 4 or 5 decks are played and that is it.
Funny, my Vintage deck that I played in a tournament this weekend had thirteen maindeck cards printed within the last year. ( I placed third in the event )
The metagame for the format is centered around some non-rotating high level strategies but the individual deck instances people play in events feature are very different. The kind of metagame adjustments and 'picking the right deck for the event' are as true in vintage as they are in Standard. This kind of evolution and adaptation points to a healthy Eternal format.
This comment is just to counter your assertion (commonly held) that there is no creativity in deck building, which is completely not the case in Vintage.
As for your proposed format, I don't like it. Weighting cards doesn't work in a format with a variable metagame-card costs in a fixed point system would cause artificial metagame shifts that occur outside of tournament results, new deck technology, and new card printings. Given that the Vintage metagame is actually a balanced and healthy one, this point system is unecessary for format diversity. If there is a format diversity problem introduced by a crippling/overpowered strategy, then there is a current outlet for remediation via DCI restricted list changes.
Who would own the point value weightings? The DCI? How do they determine weights? Would this formula and decision-making be made transparent to the players? Would errors in the original point weightings sour players to the format? Are the actual players of the existing format asking for changes that would be addressed by a point-rationed system?
Just as an aside, when was the last time you played tournament Vintage (complete with Swiss rounds into top4/top8)?
He claims to have never actually played in a tournament. Its his first sentence in paragraph 2.
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He fights you not because you've wronged him, but because you're there.
<+RicoSuave> andy doesn't like grass on his playing field
<+RicoSuave> the easiest answer is to flip em over and play in the mud
<BrassMan> OBV
<BrassMan> WAIT WHAT?
Oh I stated above I've never played in a tournament because of the reasons I'm trying to explain. I've followed it pretty closely since 1995, but apparently don't have the appropriate knowledge of the format to try and change it. This topic needs to be changed to not saving Vintage, but trying to create a format that people like enough to still hold sanctioned events and be allowed to use these cards that aren't allowed in any other format
I will argue that Vintage is healthy, however, or maybe more so to the fact that it's very unpopular these days and never really played for obvious reasons already discussed.
You do bring up very good points as to how cards would be rated and whatnot. But this is an open forum and I would love to hear anyones ideas on how to get this to work, if it even can.
Legacy sounds interesting, but doesn't even allow the best cards to be played. That strongly restricts its appeal to me. Not saying its bad, in fact I completely agree with different formats to keep the game fresh and ongoing.
My whole point it Vintage is about dead and if it goes so do all our favorite cards that defined the game for so long. That would be a damn shame really. So I'm trying to get vintage players inputs on what could make for a similar card pool, but more variety in deck design or at least not have first turn lock down decks and first turn kills because it's clearly not that appealing to the magic community as a whole, hence Vintage dying out. There are other reasons for this also, cost for one, but cost isn't the issue I don't think because anyone can make money and buy what they want, or allow proxies as most do nowadays.
I'm trying to shy away from the cost issue and focus solely on gameplay and allowing the most cards possible to be played without becoming broken. Sounds like the Vintage idea, but adjusted to survive once more.
Thror for real I've got nothing against you and would like to pose a truce, and even apologize for being inappropriate before. If we can agree on one thing, I hope it's that we would like to be able to play with powerful cards again not allowed anywhere else. If this point system wouldn't work, I'm more than open to hear other ideas or expand on this one.
Legacy sounds interesting, but doesn't even allow the best cards to be played. That strongly restricts its appeal to me. Not saying its bad, in fact I completely agree with different formats to keep the game fresh and ongoing.
Just because you can't use straight out broken cards does NOT mean you aren't able to play with the best cards. Seriously theres not that many banned cards, and none of them are banned without a lot of thought by a group of people that know what they are doing. Now im sure we would all play vintage if there were enough power to go around but there just isn't. Legacy is great though, with the exception of maybe too much delver these days.
How to save Vintage? The same way to save Legacy: Abolish the reserved list.
The extra problem with Vintage though, is that some cards are just too powerful to reprint, unless they did some sort of non-standard print run.
Competitive Vintage decks require a certain number of P9 cards. Vintage players may say "you don't need *insert card(s) here* to play vintage, but if you lack black lotus/moxen and your opponent doesn't, you're at a huge disadvantage already. I'm sure there are plenty of decks one could build without P9, but chances are it will look more like a Legacy deck than Vintage...and at that point, why not just play Legacy?
As for proxy-allowances, unless you are already a Legacy player/Collector and own those $100+ cards used in Vintage, I'm guessing not many players will fork over that much money to play in a Vintage tournament once a month?
Vintage is a format for players who own the cards.
The only way to revive vintage is to reprint cards.
Agreed. Currently the financial entry barrier to Vintage is just too high to support a healthy player base anywhere out side of a couple areas in Europe. I love the Vintage format myself and have enjoyed playing it with 10 proxy decks for quite a while, but the only thing that's going to get this format to appeal to a wide enough player base to make it popular again is major reprints of Beta, Arabian Nights, and Antiquities.
By "major reprint" I mean something more widely produced than a From the Vault set. It would need to be something like Masters Edition but in paper. A set that people could buy boosters of, draft it, and still have it kept separate from the current standard format. This would definitely breathe life into the Vintage format again (assuming the entire P9, Workshops, Bazaars, Library, etc. were all reprinted) but I don't think anything short of that is going to do it.
Would making this Masters Edition on paper decrease the value of the real originals? It may kill the secondary market of collectors. I always agreed with the reserved list, but seeing as it really is killing Vintage I don't think I would be too bothered do long as you could very easily distinguish between the originals and the newly printed.
I sure would hate to see my collection decrease in value, though. I think it would absolutely destroy Magic from a collecting point of view.
I'm not sure why I care too much about saving Vintage anymore personally, because I'm not too fond of "15 minute turns" and 1st turn kills. Yes it's amazing that it can be done, just isn't my personal style. But like I've been saying, I at least want there to be a health format where these cards can be played.
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I've never actually played in a tournament, and have played the game since 1995. The reason I don't play in a tournament setting is because everything I've ever read about it, and I do follow it closely, points to the direction that there is no creativity in deck building as the same mother effing top 4 or 5 decks are played and that is it. Also card prices are very high and drastically reduces the barrier of entry for new players.
So after reading through a lot of threads over the last few years about the format as a whole and player complaints about the banned/restricted list and pricey barrier of entry, I came up with the following solution:
A point-based deck design where each card is given a value based solely upon it's power in the format (not price or it's limited print run) and only allowing a maximum point base to each deck.
I.E. Each deck is only allowed 300 points.
Black lotus = 50
Ancestral Recall = 40
Time Walk = 35
Timetwister = 10
Each mox = 25
Library of Alexandria = 40
Mishra's Workshop = 30
Bazaar of Baghdad = 15
Mana Drain = 25
Force of Will = 20
Yawgmoth's Will = 30
Demonic Tutor = 25
Time Vault = 50
Etc.
Keep all power restricted and other cards that limit a variety of competitive decks in the format and, most importantly, the fun of the game. Here are some examples of these types of cards:
Demonic Tutor
Time Vault
Yawgmoth's Will
Trinisphere
Tolarian Academy
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Stripmine
Tinker
Balance
Unrestrict Library of Alexandria for crying outloud because no one has been able to play the freaking thing since about 3 months after its original printing (yes I am bitter about this because it's entirely too slow for Vintage and banned in everything else, therefore only good in casual in which case it's actually too good)
A couple other things:
Ban any card with storm because it's effing boring. I'm so sick of uncounterable combos that are easy to pull off and we've all seen a hundred times. The format lacks creativity, that's its biggest problem for me.
Ban every wish card because the game should only be played with your actual deck, not bullcrap from outside the game. Seriously why does this game involve cards that people didn't skillfully think to put in their deck or forgot to prepare for certain cards? If you made a mistake and should have added something to your deck, it's your fault alone and you can swap within your sideboard before the next game. Take the loss like a man. If you want to keep your deck to 60 cards then you shouldn't have access to 75 during actual gameplay.
I realize this is a lot of bannings, but I do feel they were mistakes and took something away from the game. Card designers are doing this too often. We don't need 7 new creature abilities within each set, nor do we need creatures that have 6 abilities and are just annoying to read or can't die in a new way.
Any card that probably should be restricted and isn't on the list I created above like Wasteland, Fastbond, Lion's Eye Diamond, and other tutors, just give them high points. Simply put, Vintage players want to play with their cards and the best ones are restricted which basically kill them altogether. So allow players to use them, but make it cost them dearly by taking up a lot of points in the deck. This is with the exception to my comments above about storm, wishes, split/flip, and level-up cards because I personally don't think they should be in the game and were mistakes.
What I think the result would be:
- Cards wouldn't lose value
- A deck couldn't hold all the power 9 without being able to play anything else
- The format would be slower, but still capable of being fast
- Players could use cards that have been restricted for entirely to long
- Unskilled cards with storm and wish cards would finally be eliminated
- Eliminate proxies, with a limited point-base per deck you don't need every expensive card so decks will be cheaper in general. Or, at least, a tremendous amount of inexpensive cards will be more effective and shouldn't be worth so many points.
- And most importantly, I highly doubt the format will only have a few top decks that everyone reads online and takes to a tournament and when they win think they should be glorified... It's just pathetic to steal a deck design and think you are good.
Anyways please comment on this, and don't be insulting, just simply state your opinion kindly and explain why certain things would work or why you think they wouldn't. I would like this idea to take off and not just be something this site shuts the thread down for because people can't be civil.
Thank you kindly,
Ryan
P.S. The point value I gave specific cards in this topic obviously aren't final and would be adjusted by Wizards accordingly. As new cards are released or old cards become overpowered, they can simply adjust the point value rather than restricting them altogether and making the card not playable as a one-of.
This really has nothing to do with vintage, its just an alteration of the current format and really doesnt belong here. So I am going to move it to magic general.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
It would be a completely different format, with a vintage card pool.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
That's it's biggest failing.
My numbers may be off but they still show how little full power is floating around
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UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
That's not to say your idea is bad. It just doesn't do anything to fix Vintage, because it isn't Vintage at all. If you're really interested in pursuing your format, try formalizing some rules and posting them in the casual section. If people like it, it may catch on and grow. However, like urweak said, similar point-based systems have been suggested before, but none have had widespread success to date.
* = Obviously, Vintage has a few banned cards, but these are only prohibited due to the problems they cause in a tournament setting. Cards are not banned due to power level in Vintage.
There's not much that can really be done about Vintage. It's a great format, but card availability is an obvious problem. The only answer is that there will be a set number of players are allowed to play Vintage. That number will always go down, but won't be able to go up. It's a shame, but that's just how it is.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
Bazaar's points seem really low too. And Library is extremely good in vintage, I feel like it's one of the best cards in magic.
edit: I regret my post and am unsure if this thread is legitimate.
The post is legitimate. He posted the same thread on magictraders, then got really rude/insulting when pretty much everyone told him it was a bad idea.
http://www.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/025426.html
It was later mentioned to me that people have tried to start a point-based approach before and it didn't go very far. I just think it would be cool to have a format where more cards are playable again and if someone wants to break one hey are limited elsewhere. It would reduce the cost a little, and I'm sure there would be a lot more types of decks. Thought more people would be interested in this idea.
It's clear now that this is not "saving" vintage, as I guess nothing will. But it would be the only format that allowed these old, fun cards to be played again and more players could join.
Vintage is vintage because of what it is. What YOU want to make it is something entirely different.
Having said that, you can't save vintage for 2 main reasons.
1. The big cards in vintage are more scarce than volcanos in NJ. And as time goes by, fewer of these cards will be available. With the reprint list, this is a one way spiral to hell.
2. Because of the limited availability of the cards, the prices are insane. Not everybody can afford them. This won't change either. That means even fewer people to play the format.
Please don't get me wrong. I love Vintage. If I had people to play against, it is all I would play. As far as I'm concerned, every other format is a distant second at best. I play them out of necessity to have something to play. But Vintage will always be my first love.
The format is dying and someday will be dead. As it is there's only one WotC recognized MAIN event for Vintage unless there's something going on that I don't know about. I think Gencon is it.
Let the format rest in peace. It had a nice run but it's over. Nobody short of rich preppy boys are going to shell out $3,000 for a Black Lotus.
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
Also, to better explain myself and what I think is fun about Magic, my favorite part is designing different decks with versatility rather than one focus. I realize that wouldn't compete in vintage unless it were so unprepared for bc it is entirely different. I just don't like seeing the same decks for years over. And I don't like building decks that go specifically against one other deck because every game is played like the one before a lot of times. That just gets boring. That's te mindset I come from after playing for this many years. It's kind of like hearing a song you love for the first time and it gets played on the radio 10 times a day. I just get burnt out.
So maybe Vintage isn't for me, but it's the only format that allows my cards to be played, and that is infinitely limiting, especially when the format is about dead.
Does anyone think they will create a new format or expand a current one to allow these cards to see play again? If not, why are the P9 still worth so much?
The advantage of using this method over the points method is that the points method is somewhat arbitrary, when using pricing information the market has already spoken about which cards are valuable and they're priced accordingly. It also makes the format very accessible if everyone knows up front what the costs to get into it are e.g. for a $200 event you'd know that building a deck could cost you up to $200 (and you'd still be competitive) or if you've got the cards you could play in a $1,000 event. Eventually people would figure out which dollar amount events were healthiest and to their liking.
An Australian player would likely know more (I've only looked it up once)
Honestly the legacy banlist is only 62 cards (unless my count was off) most of them banned or restricted in vintage. That might be a better format for you, it's meta is wide open and it's well supported
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
Funny, my Vintage deck that I played in a tournament this weekend had thirteen maindeck cards printed within the last year. ( I placed third in the event )
The metagame for the format is centered around some non-rotating high level strategies but the individual deck instances people play in events feature are very different. The kind of metagame adjustments and 'picking the right deck for the event' are as true in vintage as they are in Standard. This kind of evolution and adaptation points to a healthy Eternal format.
This comment is just to counter your assertion (commonly held) that there is no creativity in deck building, which is completely not the case in Vintage.
As for your proposed format, I don't like it. Weighting cards doesn't work in a format with a variable metagame-card costs in a fixed point system would cause artificial metagame shifts that occur outside of tournament results, new deck technology, and new card printings. Given that the Vintage metagame is actually a balanced and healthy one, this point system is unecessary for format diversity. If there is a format diversity problem introduced by a crippling/overpowered strategy, then there is a current outlet for remediation via DCI restricted list changes.
Who would own the point value weightings? The DCI? How do they determine weights? Would this formula and decision-making be made transparent to the players? Would errors in the original point weightings sour players to the format? Are the actual players of the existing format asking for changes that would be addressed by a point-rationed system?
Just as an aside, when was the last time you played tournament Vintage (complete with Swiss rounds into top4/top8)?
I will argue that Vintage is healthy, however, or maybe more so to the fact that it's very unpopular these days and never really played for obvious reasons already discussed.
You do bring up very good points as to how cards would be rated and whatnot. But this is an open forum and I would love to hear anyones ideas on how to get this to work, if it even can.
Legacy sounds interesting, but doesn't even allow the best cards to be played. That strongly restricts its appeal to me. Not saying its bad, in fact I completely agree with different formats to keep the game fresh and ongoing.
My whole point it Vintage is about dead and if it goes so do all our favorite cards that defined the game for so long. That would be a damn shame really. So I'm trying to get vintage players inputs on what could make for a similar card pool, but more variety in deck design or at least not have first turn lock down decks and first turn kills because it's clearly not that appealing to the magic community as a whole, hence Vintage dying out. There are other reasons for this also, cost for one, but cost isn't the issue I don't think because anyone can make money and buy what they want, or allow proxies as most do nowadays.
I'm trying to shy away from the cost issue and focus solely on gameplay and allowing the most cards possible to be played without becoming broken. Sounds like the Vintage idea, but adjusted to survive once more.
Thror for real I've got nothing against you and would like to pose a truce, and even apologize for being inappropriate before. If we can agree on one thing, I hope it's that we would like to be able to play with powerful cards again not allowed anywhere else. If this point system wouldn't work, I'm more than open to hear other ideas or expand on this one.
Just because you can't use straight out broken cards does NOT mean you aren't able to play with the best cards. Seriously theres not that many banned cards, and none of them are banned without a lot of thought by a group of people that know what they are doing. Now im sure we would all play vintage if there were enough power to go around but there just isn't. Legacy is great though, with the exception of maybe too much delver these days.
The extra problem with Vintage though, is that some cards are just too powerful to reprint, unless they did some sort of non-standard print run.
Competitive Vintage decks require a certain number of P9 cards. Vintage players may say "you don't need *insert card(s) here* to play vintage, but if you lack black lotus/moxen and your opponent doesn't, you're at a huge disadvantage already. I'm sure there are plenty of decks one could build without P9, but chances are it will look more like a Legacy deck than Vintage...and at that point, why not just play Legacy?
As for proxy-allowances, unless you are already a Legacy player/Collector and own those $100+ cards used in Vintage, I'm guessing not many players will fork over that much money to play in a Vintage tournament once a month?
Vintage is a format for players who own the cards.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Agreed. Currently the financial entry barrier to Vintage is just too high to support a healthy player base anywhere out side of a couple areas in Europe. I love the Vintage format myself and have enjoyed playing it with 10 proxy decks for quite a while, but the only thing that's going to get this format to appeal to a wide enough player base to make it popular again is major reprints of Beta, Arabian Nights, and Antiquities.
By "major reprint" I mean something more widely produced than a From the Vault set. It would need to be something like Masters Edition but in paper. A set that people could buy boosters of, draft it, and still have it kept separate from the current standard format. This would definitely breathe life into the Vintage format again (assuming the entire P9, Workshops, Bazaars, Library, etc. were all reprinted) but I don't think anything short of that is going to do it.
I sure would hate to see my collection decrease in value, though. I think it would absolutely destroy Magic from a collecting point of view.
I'm not sure why I care too much about saving Vintage anymore personally, because I'm not too fond of "15 minute turns" and 1st turn kills. Yes it's amazing that it can be done, just isn't my personal style. But like I've been saying, I at least want there to be a health format where these cards can be played.