I've been thinking about this instant for my UB build and wanted some thoughts on it (The idea comes from brainstorming ways to stop my friends aggro loam deck which is near impossible to beat g1).
Pros:
~MB graveyard hate is always, ALWAYS nice. It's flexibility is also cool(exile 1 to stop loam, 2 to stop gifts combo or "types" of cards to shrink Tarmo).
~it can "fireball" late game giving a little extra reach to "delver minus burn" decks
~as an instant, it works well with snappy and counter magic
~helps with quick aggro / undo land+bob pain
~good surprise factor
Cons:
~Reliance on opponents grave for effectiveness
~Never want to draw in multiples, so only 1 or 2 are even possible to put in a deck.
~Might be worse than surgical/spellbomb g2?
~needs a spot, what to take out?
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
I had tried this in the BUG deck before I added Tombstalker to it, and I liked it as a 1-of maindeck, and a second in the sideboard. I won some games that I had no right winning because it can come out of no-where as a response. I've beaten Splinter Twin with the first activation on the stack, because I couldn't get past a Remand into Dispel for my kill spell Smother. He was at two life and I had exactly three open with one of them being a Watery Grave.
Not sure about Loam, as I never played Loam when it was in the deck. I've switched over to Jund Charm for the maindeck hate, but it seems to be worth testing, and being an Instant means you can cast it in response to a Noxious Revival. It would also be better than maindecking extraction effects like Extirpate, as it serves a dual purpose with the Drain Life effect.
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I tested it as a 1-of in my Grixis Delver deck, and it always ended up being the worst card in the deck. As graveyard hate, it's no instant-speed Fireball (I usually set it to X = 1-4 at that time), and I never really found it to be very good reach, even with 23 lands (what, X = 5 or 6 at max, and they're still at 7+ life?) I think I sided it out at present, trimmed the list down to 22 lands, and added more disruption like Spell Snare and Deprive. It was competing with Trickbind for the title of "worst card", and Trickbind was better because at least it was fetchland LD. I cannot recommend this card over other disruption.
I have a hunch Aggro Loam/Loam Control is just a bad match-up Game 1+. Kick out their Loams and you haven't dealt with Liliana OTV the machine gun girl, Bob (who gets LftLs), or Goyf.
I tested it as a 1-of in my Grixis Delver deck, and it always ended up being the worst card in the deck. As graveyard hate, it's no instant-speed Fireball (I usually set it to X = 1-4 at that time), and I never really found it to be very good reach, even with 23 lands (what, X = 5 or 6 at max, and they're still at 7+ life?) I think I sided it out at present, trimmed the list down to 22 lands, and added more disruption like Spell Snare and Deprive. It was competing with Trickbind for the title of "worst card", and Trickbind was better because at least it was fetchland LD. I cannot recommend this card over other disruption.
I have a hunch Aggro Loam/Loam Control is just a bad match-up Game 1+. Kick out their Loams and you haven't dealt with Liliana OTV the machine gun girl, Bob (who gets LftLs), or Goyf.
The graveyard hate part and fireball part were kinda separate, but whatever. Was the 1-4 life drain ever bad? Was there ever a case when you wished it was more? I ask what (if any) personal experiences you remember. Also, does your grixis delver deck run any other graveyard hate? What are your go to graveyard disruption?
For those who have not played against Aggro Loam, the match is a mess. Because of their recursive creature removal (darkblast + flamejab) and crazy inevitability (resolved assult) it makes the game very hard. On top of that, ravens crime rips every card out of your hand that inquisition doesn't get. I mean, you HAVE to waste your counters to keep your threats alive(I play UB delver) even though you know the threats are coming back within the next two turns. Having to race on topdecks with UB is just hard.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
Aggro-loam can not beat Shackles, but Shackles depends a lot on your manabase. They also have a lot of difficulty dealing with a resolved Goyf or other relevant fatty. I've found the best way to beat them is to simply clock them as fast as possible. Maybe a Bog or two in your deck would make the matchup easier, you just have to make sure Lili doesn't stay on the board and that they don't have Revival in hand when you bog them.
I'm testing Suffer against the deck later today though.
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Aggro-loam can not beat Shackles, but Shackles depends a lot on your manabase. They also have a lot of difficulty dealing with a resolved Goyf or other relevant fatty. I've found the best way to beat them is to simply clock them as fast as possible. Maybe a Bog or two in your deck would make the matchup easier, you just have to make sure Lili doesn't stay on the board and that they don't have Revival in hand when you bog them.
I'm testing Suffer against the deck later today though.
I'm not sure I fallow your logic on shackles. What do you steal? Tarmo and Bob? Countryside crusher is either too big to steal or in many cases isn't in the MB anyways.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
I'm not sure I fallow your logic on shackles. What do you steal? Tarmo and Bob? Countryside crusher is either too big to steal or in many cases isn't in the MB anyways.
Steal whatever you want. It doesn't matter because they will have to either kill it or die by it. That's the point of stealing it. That deck tends to have very little board presence, and stealing anything is going to mess up their gameplan if they are trying to aggro you out.
If they go the Aggro route, you have a really good chance of just crushing them, Shackles is just that good against that plan... I usually leave the shackles there threatening to steal anything, and they try to play around it by not casting anything and going the SA with RC plan, which I have answers for already. I'm not playing a Delver variant, and honestly I'm not even playing a Tempo deck, it's just that my deck is closer to the Tempo archetypes than anything else on this site.
Sorry, I lol'd at Countryside Crusher. That's the old version of the deck, and not very good in my particular Meta. He dies to Smother, etc...., and everyone here is running Smother or Terminate. While he does help the Loam out, he also gives your Opponent a lot of information, and makes Liliana really bad. Lili is far better than Crusher. They serve the same role for that deck, and Lili is so much harder for opponents to deal with. Some decks just plain lose to Lili, such as the Tempo and Control decks.
Wait why couldn't they just Maelstrom Pulse the Shackles? Somehow I don't see Shackles being a big problem for any Jund-colored deck, since they'll all be running Pulse mainboard.
Wait why couldn't they just Maelstrom Pulse the Shackles? Somehow I don't see Shackles being a big problem for any Jund-colored deck, since they'll all be running Pulse mainboard.
Aggro-loam does not often run Pulse, and usually then it's only a 1-2 of. Their 3 drop slot is very full, and Pulse often sits in the hand being useless so most lists have cut it completely. You have enough counters to stop a 3cmc sorcery. Their best gameplan against any Blue deck is the Raven's Crime and Liliana one. Any Loam player that isn't new to the deck would know this. I'd be more worried about them dropping Lili down than having a 1 of Pulse. They also board in Ancient Grudge too, but that's easy play around or simply extract.
Pulse really is not a threat if you are clocking them, and disrupting their primary win-con.
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Steal whatever you want. It doesn't matter because they will have to either kill it or die by it. That's the point of stealing it. That deck tends to have very little board presence, and stealing anything is going to mess up their gameplan if they are trying to aggro you out.
If they go the Aggro route, you have a really good chance of just crushing them, Shackles is just that good against that plan... I usually leave the shackles there threatening to steal anything, and they try to play around it by not casting anything and going the SA with RC plan, which I have answers for already. I'm not playing a Delver variant, and honestly I'm not even playing a Tempo deck, it's just that my deck is closer to the Tempo archetypes than anything else on this site.
Sorry, I lol'd at Countryside Crusher. That's the old version of the deck, and not very good in my particular Meta. He dies to Smother, etc...., and everyone here is running Smother or Terminate. While he does help the Loam out, he also gives your Opponent a lot of information, and makes Liliana really bad. Lili is far better than Crusher. They serve the same role for that deck, and Lili is so much harder for opponents to deal with. Some decks just plain lose to Lili, such as the Tempo and Control decks.
Well that's kinda my point. If most lists are only running 8-10 creatures, so shackles seems a bit lackluster, especially because under no circumstances can assault resolve(cant tap out for shackles). The list I'm talking about in particular is my friends which only runs 4 goyf, 4 bob and 1 lavaclaw reaches(hard to control). And even if i control their dude, they just flamejab it to death, AND THEN rip up my hand with ravens crime. How do I prevent assault from resolving while in top deck mode?
The problem I'm continuously having is: for my UB delver, only my man lands can get around flamejab, but I never want to tap them unless I have a feast n' Famine in play. Meanwhile, I draw 1 card per turn and Loam player is basically dredging up their deck(drawing 3-4 per turn).
Wait why couldn't they just Maelstrom Pulse the Shackles? Somehow I don't see Shackles being a big problem for any Jund-colored deck, since they'll all be running Pulse mainboard.
This is loam, not jund I was discussing. So Pulse only shows up as a 1-of if anything.
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
Well that's kinda my point. If most lists are only running 8-10 creatures, so shackles seems a bit lackluster, especially because under no circumstances can assault resolve(cant tap out for shackles). The list I'm talking about in particular is my friends which only runs 4 goyf, 4 bob and 1 lavaclaw reaches(hard to control). And even if i control their dude, they just flamejab it to death, AND THEN rip up my hand with ravens crime. How do I prevent assault from resolving while in top deck mode?
The problem I'm continuously having is: for my UB delver, only my man lands can get around flamejab, but I never want to tap them unless I have a feast n' Famine in play. Meanwhile, I draw 1 card per turn and Loam player is basically dredging up their deck(drawing 3-4 per turn).
This is loam, not jund I was discussing. So Pulse only shows up as a 1-of if anything.
Sounds like he's playing an older list, most of the newer ones I have seen are running Huntmaster of the Falls as well.
Mind posting your list, or linking to it if it's already on here, so we might be able to better help with that available.
Shackles is actually better against decks that rely on only a few creatures. It tends to put them in a position where the one of the few creatures they were able to get to stick ends up being a detriment to them.
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Wait why couldn't they just Maelstrom Pulse the Shackles? Somehow I don't see Shackles being a big problem for any Jund-colored deck, since they'll all be running Pulse mainboard.
You run 2-3 Shackles. They run 0-4 Maelstrom Pulses. Given that Jund doesn't run card draw/filters and Loam doesn't run as many Pulses, they won't always get Pulse when you get Shackles. In testing, there have been quite a few games that Jund outright lost to Shackles because they couldn't get a Pulse in time. Shackles even stole manlands!
I'm not as sure how well Loam fares against Shackles, though. I should test.
Not very well versed on this matchup, but I am fairly certain that loam doesnt AUTOLOSE to shackles, it can flame jab/seismic assualt you to death. Shackles may be good against them, but I know that loam can play out seismic and loam to just kill you and also that shackles doesn't do jack against that plan.
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Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the great banner.
Not very well versed on this matchup, but I am fairly certain that loam doesnt AUTOLOSE to shackles, it can flame jab/seismic assualt you to death. Shackles may be good against them, but I know that loam can play out seismic and loam to just kill you and also that shackles doesn't do jack against that plan.
Pretty much this. Why any tempo deck would care what creatures Loam plays is beyond me. Your worry should be Seismic Assault nuking your delvers/threats(and you) and Loam/Raven's Crime emptying your hand.
G1 you just need to get a threat to put a clock on them and G2 should have enough SB graveyard hate to take care of their main game plan.
^^ You aren't winning through the disruption they board in Game 2, usually when they go to 4x Raven's Crime and Flame Jab anything you play early.
Aggro-Loam has a better long game, and preventing them from playing the Tempo and long game against you is usually the best bet. IE preventing them from landing any meaningful creatures.
This is why that whole Rock, Paper, Scissors idea doesn't work in Modern. Most of the actual competitive decks can take two different paths to victory. Aggro-Loam is a hard matchup for any deck running U, which is why it's such a strong deck in the format, and capable of grinding out wins. All of the Tempo decks rely on an early threat being resolved and protecting it, that is exactly the style of deck Loam is good against. Well pretty much any deck that hopes to hold a lot of cards in hand is bad against Loam.
Not very well versed on this matchup, but I am fairly certain that loam doesnt AUTOLOSE to shackles, it can flame jab/seismic assualt you to death. Shackles may be good against them, but I know that loam can play out seismic and loam to just kill you and also that shackles doesn't do jack against that plan.
That plan isn't very good against any deck running U, because of Spell Spierce/Mana Leak/Cryptic. They run Liliana, Crime, and creatures for that reason. Most Loam players I have run into side out some of the Seismic, because they do not count on it ever resolving until well into the late game.
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Sounds like he's playing an older list, most of the newer ones I have seen are running Huntmaster of the Falls as well.
Mind posting your list, or linking to it if it's already on here, so we might be able to better help with that available.
Shackles is actually better against decks that rely on only a few creatures. It tends to put them in a position where the one of the few creatures they were able to get to stick ends up being a detriment to them.
The only creature this list can stick that would actually hinder it, it goyf. Although historically, if at any time I play shackles, his next turn tends to be some combination of ravens crime my hand and/or land assault(in which case controlling goyf is moot).
Honestly, I'm treating this more like a dredge match up than a Jund match up. Because I can beat jund every day of the week, Loam just has too many recursive threats, and mana leak and remand are just so weak against him. Other than suffer the past, I just have no game 1 against him and games 2-3 are just up to me drawing my sb.
Maybe we should move this discussion to another thread? Seems like we're talking about matchup analysis more than card choice at this point. I do love my suffer the past though. =]
The only creature this list can stick that would actually hinder it, it goyf. Although historically, if at any time I play shackles, his next turn tends to be some combination of ravens crime my hand and/or land assault(in which case controlling goyf is moot).
Honestly, I'm treating this more like a dredge match up than a Jund match up. Because I can beat jund every day of the week, Loam just has too many recursive threats, and mana leak and remand are just so weak against him. Other than suffer the past, I just have no game 1 against him and games 2-3 are just up to me drawing my sb.
Maybe we should move this discussion to another thread? Seems like we're talking about matchup analysis more than card choice at this point. I do love my suffer the past though. =]
I can see how shackles might be hindered. My manabase only has 2 non-islands out of 12 actual lands in it. Most of the time their Goyf's are not even large enough to escape my shackles, and even so they have to cast them so late that my own Goyf's have beaten them down into burn or Snapcaster range quite a bit.
Glad to hear that StP is working out for you. I liked it when I had it in the BUG deck. Primarily for the reach and drain life aspect myself. The MD GY was just a benefit for me.
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Suffer the Past?
I've been thinking about this instant for my UB build and wanted some thoughts on it (The idea comes from brainstorming ways to stop my friends aggro loam deck which is near impossible to beat g1).
Pros:
~MB graveyard hate is always, ALWAYS nice. It's flexibility is also cool(exile 1 to stop loam, 2 to stop gifts combo or "types" of cards to shrink Tarmo).
~it can "fireball" late game giving a little extra reach to "delver minus burn" decks
~as an instant, it works well with snappy and counter magic
~helps with quick aggro / undo land+bob pain
~good surprise factor
Cons:
~Reliance on opponents grave for effectiveness
~Never want to draw in multiples, so only 1 or 2 are even possible to put in a deck.
~Might be worse than surgical/spellbomb g2?
~needs a spot, what to take out?
Not sure about Loam, as I never played Loam when it was in the deck. I've switched over to Jund Charm for the maindeck hate, but it seems to be worth testing, and being an Instant means you can cast it in response to a Noxious Revival. It would also be better than maindecking extraction effects like Extirpate, as it serves a dual purpose with the Drain Life effect.
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I have a hunch Aggro Loam/Loam Control is just a bad match-up Game 1+. Kick out their Loams and you haven't dealt with Liliana OTV the machine gun girl, Bob (who gets LftLs), or Goyf.
The graveyard hate part and fireball part were kinda separate, but whatever. Was the 1-4 life drain ever bad? Was there ever a case when you wished it was more? I ask what (if any) personal experiences you remember. Also, does your grixis delver deck run any other graveyard hate? What are your go to graveyard disruption?
For those who have not played against Aggro Loam, the match is a mess. Because of their recursive creature removal (darkblast + flamejab) and crazy inevitability (resolved assult) it makes the game very hard. On top of that, ravens crime rips every card out of your hand that inquisition doesn't get. I mean, you HAVE to waste your counters to keep your threats alive(I play UB delver) even though you know the threats are coming back within the next two turns. Having to race on topdecks with UB is just hard.
I'm testing Suffer against the deck later today though.
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I'm not sure I fallow your logic on shackles. What do you steal? Tarmo and Bob? Countryside crusher is either too big to steal or in many cases isn't in the MB anyways.
Steal whatever you want. It doesn't matter because they will have to either kill it or die by it. That's the point of stealing it. That deck tends to have very little board presence, and stealing anything is going to mess up their gameplan if they are trying to aggro you out.
If they go the Aggro route, you have a really good chance of just crushing them, Shackles is just that good against that plan... I usually leave the shackles there threatening to steal anything, and they try to play around it by not casting anything and going the SA with RC plan, which I have answers for already. I'm not playing a Delver variant, and honestly I'm not even playing a Tempo deck, it's just that my deck is closer to the Tempo archetypes than anything else on this site.
Sorry, I lol'd at Countryside Crusher. That's the old version of the deck, and not very good in my particular Meta. He dies to Smother, etc...., and everyone here is running Smother or Terminate. While he does help the Loam out, he also gives your Opponent a lot of information, and makes Liliana really bad. Lili is far better than Crusher. They serve the same role for that deck, and Lili is so much harder for opponents to deal with. Some decks just plain lose to Lili, such as the Tempo and Control decks.
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Draft My Cube!
Aggro-loam does not often run Pulse, and usually then it's only a 1-2 of. Their 3 drop slot is very full, and Pulse often sits in the hand being useless so most lists have cut it completely. You have enough counters to stop a 3cmc sorcery. Their best gameplan against any Blue deck is the Raven's Crime and Liliana one. Any Loam player that isn't new to the deck would know this. I'd be more worried about them dropping Lili down than having a 1 of Pulse. They also board in Ancient Grudge too, but that's easy play around or simply extract.
Pulse really is not a threat if you are clocking them, and disrupting their primary win-con.
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Well that's kinda my point. If most lists are only running 8-10 creatures, so shackles seems a bit lackluster, especially because under no circumstances can assault resolve(cant tap out for shackles). The list I'm talking about in particular is my friends which only runs 4 goyf, 4 bob and 1 lavaclaw reaches(hard to control). And even if i control their dude, they just flamejab it to death, AND THEN rip up my hand with ravens crime. How do I prevent assault from resolving while in top deck mode?
The problem I'm continuously having is: for my UB delver, only my man lands can get around flamejab, but I never want to tap them unless I have a feast n' Famine in play. Meanwhile, I draw 1 card per turn and Loam player is basically dredging up their deck(drawing 3-4 per turn).
This is loam, not jund I was discussing. So Pulse only shows up as a 1-of if anything.
Sounds like he's playing an older list, most of the newer ones I have seen are running Huntmaster of the Falls as well.
Mind posting your list, or linking to it if it's already on here, so we might be able to better help with that available.
Shackles is actually better against decks that rely on only a few creatures. It tends to put them in a position where the one of the few creatures they were able to get to stick ends up being a detriment to them.
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Modern
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You run 2-3 Shackles. They run 0-4 Maelstrom Pulses. Given that Jund doesn't run card draw/filters and Loam doesn't run as many Pulses, they won't always get Pulse when you get Shackles. In testing, there have been quite a few games that Jund outright lost to Shackles because they couldn't get a Pulse in time. Shackles even stole manlands!
I'm not as sure how well Loam fares against Shackles, though. I should test.
Pretty much this. Why any tempo deck would care what creatures Loam plays is beyond me. Your worry should be Seismic Assault nuking your delvers/threats(and you) and Loam/Raven's Crime emptying your hand.
G1 you just need to get a threat to put a clock on them and G2 should have enough SB graveyard hate to take care of their main game plan.
Aggro-Loam has a better long game, and preventing them from playing the Tempo and long game against you is usually the best bet. IE preventing them from landing any meaningful creatures.
This is why that whole Rock, Paper, Scissors idea doesn't work in Modern. Most of the actual competitive decks can take two different paths to victory. Aggro-Loam is a hard matchup for any deck running U, which is why it's such a strong deck in the format, and capable of grinding out wins. All of the Tempo decks rely on an early threat being resolved and protecting it, that is exactly the style of deck Loam is good against. Well pretty much any deck that hopes to hold a lot of cards in hand is bad against Loam.
That plan isn't very good against any deck running U, because of Spell Spierce/Mana Leak/Cryptic. They run Liliana, Crime, and creatures for that reason. Most Loam players I have run into side out some of the Seismic, because they do not count on it ever resolving until well into the late game.
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The only creature this list can stick that would actually hinder it, it goyf. Although historically, if at any time I play shackles, his next turn tends to be some combination of ravens crime my hand and/or land assault(in which case controlling goyf is moot).
Honestly, I'm treating this more like a dredge match up than a Jund match up. Because I can beat jund every day of the week, Loam just has too many recursive threats, and mana leak and remand are just so weak against him. Other than suffer the past, I just have no game 1 against him and games 2-3 are just up to me drawing my sb.
Maybe we should move this discussion to another thread? Seems like we're talking about matchup analysis more than card choice at this point. I do love my suffer the past though. =]
For reference: My good friends list vs my list.
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bajuka Bog
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Blood Crypt
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Graven Cairns
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
Spells
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
1 Dark Blast
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
3 Raven's Crime
4 Seismic Assault
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Shred Memory
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Deathmark
2 Jund Charm
2 Nature's Claim
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Terminate
1 Combust
1 Zombie Infestation
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Delver of Secrets
Spells
4 Mana Leak
3 Smother
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Suffer the Past
2 Spell Pierce
2 Repeal
2 Remand
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquision of Kozilek
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Island
3 Swamp
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mutavault
1 Thoughseize
1 Dispel
2 Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Seal of Doom
1 Eradicate
3 Vadelken shackles
I can see how shackles might be hindered. My manabase only has 2 non-islands out of 12 actual lands in it. Most of the time their Goyf's are not even large enough to escape my shackles, and even so they have to cast them so late that my own Goyf's have beaten them down into burn or Snapcaster range quite a bit.
Glad to hear that StP is working out for you. I liked it when I had it in the BUG deck. Primarily for the reach and drain life aspect myself. The MD GY was just a benefit for me.
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Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg: