So in the spirit of the new forum structure I'd like to start a thread to talk about Stifle for cube. My experience is limited as I only drafted it a couple times on MTGO cube. The first thing I noticed was lack of targets is not an issue, you will have a ton of them. Some of them will be very bad, some of them are a fair trade for U and a few of them can result in blowouts (such as when your opponent evokes their Reveillark). In both of my drafts I also had a Snapcaster Mage and I was really surprised at how often Stifle was my best target to flashback when I also had access to some counters and bounce. Anyways I'm convinced enough to give it a shot in my cube and would like to hear how the card has played out for other people, at what size this card becomes an option and anything else related to Stifle in cube.
Stifle just gets better with age. Paying a card and a mana to stop a walker activation seems like a terrible deal in a vacuum, but the cards versatility is off the charts. It so often gives you what you need, when you need it. 360 doesn't have room for it thanks to its color, but any cube above that should test it out. It is especially great in less "powerful" draft methods (i.e. not roto or booster).
I agree with everything Phantizle said except that if you support Blue tempo it easily has a home at 360 (and yeah I know I'm turning into a broken record on U/x tempo). In my playgroup it is a staple and a reasonably early. Yeah it can be card disadvantage but if the activated or triggered ability is strong enough I'm more than happy to lose a card for it.
At this point I should probably for thoroughness' sake make a list of cards with abilities I don't mind Stifling, but there are a few problems with that, 1 it's incredibly situational and based on board position, and 2 would take a lot more time than I have right now.
I don't understand what you mean when you say that Stifle "can result in blowouts (such as when your opponent evokes their Reveillark)". To me it is preventing a blowout, but I would count it as 1:1 card parity.
I used to run Stifle in my cube, but that was a long time ago and things may have changed. Certainly there were only 5 fetch lands back then. It felt OK when it was acting as a 1:1 answer, for example "countering" a Pernicious Deed activation, but it always felt week if an appropriate play was to counter the comes into play ability of an opponent's creature. It may well be that spending U and a card was worth it to stop a Stomphowler from killing an important artifact, but more often than not I wished that the Stifle was another Counterspell.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I don't understand what you mean when you say that Stifle "can result in blowouts (such as when your opponent evokes their Reveillark)". To me it is preventing a blowout, but I would count it as 1:1 card parity.
That was probably a bad example. What I meant was it can be a potentially powerful effect, in the Reveillark example it is powerful in that it's preventing a blowout and with an early fetch it can create one. The important thing to note is not whether or not you're stopping or creating a blowout but that you're getting damn good value for your U mana.
Stifling 'Lark is 1:1 card parity only in the most strict sense (which is a terribly obtuse way to evaluate) considering the opponent would have gotten two creatures + CitP effects if you hadn't had Stifle (in most cases).
Either way, evaluating Stifle on a case use basis misses the point of just how versatile and plan wrecking the card is.
I play Stifle in my 540 cube, and it definitely has a home there. I've used it to punish opponents for cracking their fetches too late, finish off a karn which tried to vindicate a permanent of mine, stop a Jitte equip which would have put me in a terrible place turn 3, and various other things. It's rarely CA, sometimes parity, sometimes just tempo advantage, but it's so versatile that it'll always do something.
Is it better or worse than something like... Spell Pierce?
Spell Pierce is basically the exact opposite. SP is narrow, but (almost) always a good deal when used successfully. These cards are typically terrible in cube (we like our versatility round heya).
Stifle on the other hand makes its bones on being insanely versatile, and scaling to the level that you need. I hate to pull the "just test it and see if it's for you" (aka, the last refuge of people that have no point) but Stifle is a difficult card to describe, since its power level comes from specific game situations.
I tried Stifle in my cube for the first time today after reading this thread. I only drew it once and used it to counter a Precursor Golem's etb ability... "killing" two 3/3's for U seems pretty good. I'll watch closely to see how it continues to perform.
I tried Stifle in my cube for the first time today after reading this thread. I only drew it once and used it to counter a Precursor Golem's etb ability... "killing" two 3/3's for U seems pretty good. I'll watch closely to see how it continues to perform.
That's the thing about Stifle... it's value isn't quantifiable.
However, most decks you play against will have some sort of ability that you'd love to counter for U.
In my 450 card cube, there are 107 (non mana source) activated abilities and 134 triggered abilies. Of course the strength of these abilities vary from one another, and that certain cards have multiple triggers.. Just food for thought
In my 450 card cube, there are 107 (non mana source) activated abilities and 134 triggered abilies. Of course the strength of these abilities vary from one another, and that certain cards have multiple triggers.. Just food for thought
Cool to know, even if it doesn't help evaluation a ton. Thanks for counting.
So, roughly the same amount of targets as a creature removal spell?
For the comparison to Spell Pierce: Spell Pierce is going to be very powerful in a few circumstances but a relatively narrow card. It is probably the blue card closest to Duress, and I do think it's worth a slot in most cubes bigger than 360.
Stifle on the other hand is incredibly versatile in what it answers, the issue is creating a situation where you are enough ahead it is a worthwhile play as the majority of it's targets aren't worth spending a card on. That's why I'll say again, if you support Blue tempo you should be running this card.
How many of those 217 would matter/be worth a card? I'm probably not a countering Garruk Wildspeaker's +1 on turn 4 a lot of the time, for example.
And this is the problem with evaluating this card outside of a game state. If you have the creatures on board in order to attack and kill Garruk next turn, then Stifling Garruk's +1 might be totally worth a card. If not, you hang onto Stifle until you think the correct time has come.
Speaking of, another reason I love the card is because its variance with skill level is off the charts.
That's why it's so hard to evaluate, it really depends on board position.
Maybe countering Jace, the mind sculptor's -1 ability seems bad in a vaccum, but Stifling it and then killing him with the creature he would have bounced is pretty good. Maybe you're in a racing situation and they have a Jitte with no counters, stifling the counters that would be added could be the difference between a win and a loss.
It really depends on board position more than just about any other Blue card I can think of. And before it get's brought up no I don't think it's a win-more card that's only good when you're ahead, even though those tend to be my examples, I'm just bad at examples.
And this is the problem with evaluating this card outside of a game state. If you have the creatures on board in order to attack and kill Garruk next turn, then Stifling Garruk's +1 might be totally worth a card. If not, you hang onto Stifle until you think the correct time has come.
Speaking of, another reason I love the card is because its variance with skill level is off the charts.
He still gets the +1 loyalty, though. Not sure about your point.
He still gets the +1 loyalty, though. Not sure about your point.
I think the assumption is that they could use the extra mana to prevent you from killing Garruk and Stifling that ability can throw a wrench into their plans, basically he's saying that there are situations where Stifling Garruk's +1 is the correct play.
He still gets the +1 loyalty, though. Not sure about your point.
-AA
Stifle his ability, untap, declare attackers. Swing for 4 at garruk. Garruk dies. Life goes on.
I like spell pierce more though. Countering planeswalkers for U is a dramatic tempo swing, especially if your opponent needed that planeswalker in play.
Stifle is not in my cube currently. I've always toyed with the idea of running stifle in cube, but I just don't think it has enough impact. Sure there will be that blowout where you stifle a fetchland, then strip mine/wasteland some other land but that's not going to happen every game. I'd rather not run stifle in my cube.
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Stifle his ability, untap, declare attackers. Swing for 4 at garruk. Garruk dies. Life goes on.
Why are you stifling the ability, then?
-AA
Edit: Yes, which is why I said in my original post that I'm probably not stifling it "a lot of the time". My point is that saying it has 217 targets is not real accurate for the amount of those that are actually worth spending a whole card on.
Edit: Yes, which is why I said in my original post that I'm probably not stifling it "a lot of the time". My point is that saying it has 217 targets is not real accurate for the amount of those that are actually worth spending a whole card on.
You stifle it so you don't have to have evasive creatures to attack through a 3/3? You'd rather trade a stifle for a beast token rather than some 3/3 on your side? There are numerous reasons you'd rather stifle the ability versus trade a creature for the body or have them gain a 3/3. It all depends on boardstate and usually trading 1 for 1 with a planeswalker is as favorable as it gets barring dismiss and company.
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So in the spirit of the new forum structure I'd like to start a thread to talk about Stifle for cube. My experience is limited as I only drafted it a couple times on MTGO cube. The first thing I noticed was lack of targets is not an issue, you will have a ton of them. Some of them will be very bad, some of them are a fair trade for U and a few of them can result in blowouts (such as when your opponent evokes their Reveillark). In both of my drafts I also had a Snapcaster Mage and I was really surprised at how often Stifle was my best target to flashback when I also had access to some counters and bounce. Anyways I'm convinced enough to give it a shot in my cube and would like to hear how the card has played out for other people, at what size this card becomes an option and anything else related to Stifle in cube.
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At this point I should probably for thoroughness' sake make a list of cards with abilities I don't mind Stifling, but there are a few problems with that, 1 it's incredibly situational and based on board position, and 2 would take a lot more time than I have right now.
I used to run Stifle in my cube, but that was a long time ago and things may have changed. Certainly there were only 5 fetch lands back then. It felt OK when it was acting as a 1:1 answer, for example "countering" a Pernicious Deed activation, but it always felt week if an appropriate play was to counter the comes into play ability of an opponent's creature. It may well be that spending U and a card was worth it to stop a Stomphowler from killing an important artifact, but more often than not I wished that the Stifle was another Counterspell.
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That was probably a bad example. What I meant was it can be a potentially powerful effect, in the Reveillark example it is powerful in that it's preventing a blowout and with an early fetch it can create one. The important thing to note is not whether or not you're stopping or creating a blowout but that you're getting damn good value for your U mana.
Either way, evaluating Stifle on a case use basis misses the point of just how versatile and plan wrecking the card is.
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Spell Pierce is basically the exact opposite. SP is narrow, but (almost) always a good deal when used successfully. These cards are typically terrible in cube (we like our versatility round heya).
Stifle on the other hand makes its bones on being insanely versatile, and scaling to the level that you need. I hate to pull the "just test it and see if it's for you" (aka, the last refuge of people that have no point) but Stifle is a difficult card to describe, since its power level comes from specific game situations.
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That's the thing about Stifle... it's value isn't quantifiable.
However, most decks you play against will have some sort of ability that you'd love to counter for U.
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Cool to know, even if it doesn't help evaluation a ton. Thanks for counting.
So, roughly the same amount of targets as a creature removal spell?
Stifle on the other hand is incredibly versatile in what it answers, the issue is creating a situation where you are enough ahead it is a worthwhile play as the majority of it's targets aren't worth spending a card on. That's why I'll say again, if you support Blue tempo you should be running this card.
Further to that, 217 cards have either an activated or triggered ability. That's roughly half of my cube that Stifle can counter an ability of.
-AA
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And this is the problem with evaluating this card outside of a game state. If you have the creatures on board in order to attack and kill Garruk next turn, then Stifling Garruk's +1 might be totally worth a card. If not, you hang onto Stifle until you think the correct time has come.
Speaking of, another reason I love the card is because its variance with skill level is off the charts.
Maybe countering Jace, the mind sculptor's -1 ability seems bad in a vaccum, but Stifling it and then killing him with the creature he would have bounced is pretty good. Maybe you're in a racing situation and they have a Jitte with no counters, stifling the counters that would be added could be the difference between a win and a loss.
It really depends on board position more than just about any other Blue card I can think of. And before it get's brought up no I don't think it's a win-more card that's only good when you're ahead, even though those tend to be my examples, I'm just bad at examples.
He still gets the +1 loyalty, though. Not sure about your point.
-AA
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I think the assumption is that they could use the extra mana to prevent you from killing Garruk and Stifling that ability can throw a wrench into their plans, basically he's saying that there are situations where Stifling Garruk's +1 is the correct play.
Stifle his ability, untap, declare attackers. Swing for 4 at garruk. Garruk dies. Life goes on.
I like spell pierce more though. Countering planeswalkers for U is a dramatic tempo swing, especially if your opponent needed that planeswalker in play.
Stifle is not in my cube currently. I've always toyed with the idea of running stifle in cube, but I just don't think it has enough impact. Sure there will be that blowout where you stifle a fetchland, then strip mine/wasteland some other land but that's not going to happen every game. I'd rather not run stifle in my cube.
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Why are you stifling the ability, then?
-AA
Edit: Yes, which is why I said in my original post that I'm probably not stifling it "a lot of the time". My point is that saying it has 217 targets is not real accurate for the amount of those that are actually worth spending a whole card on.
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You stifle it so you don't have to have evasive creatures to attack through a 3/3? You'd rather trade a stifle for a beast token rather than some 3/3 on your side? There are numerous reasons you'd rather stifle the ability versus trade a creature for the body or have them gain a 3/3. It all depends on boardstate and usually trading 1 for 1 with a planeswalker is as favorable as it gets barring dismiss and company.
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