Been trying to brew a deck for GP Minneapolis and as of right now Tamiyo, the Moon Sage is my favorite card in the new set. I think it has a lot of potential.
Was thinking about adding like 4-5 green sources to the main deck for Ancient Grudge. I could go with a heavy splash of green for Huntmaster of the Fells and/or Beast Within depending how many green sources I truly need.
I really like all the numbers in the deck. I only have one Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded in there just to test him out. I want to be able to decide if he is standard playable or not or even good in this deck.
I think this deck has alot of good things for it. Cheap wraths, a lot of card draw, and very powerful creatures in the format.
Don't run Tibalt. You'll end up discarding a crucial pyroclasm effect more offen than not. His -4 is really only good against control, and his -6 will only go off when your opponent isn't attacking him, which usually means their entire field is dead. Run another creature instead. You can also try running Jace, Memory Adept instead; he'll provide card draw, and is a 3-4 turn clock against control or even aggro decks in topdeck mode if you spam his 0.
@arbitraryarmor - Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded hasn't done anything to interesting in my games yet. I will probably be cutting him soon for something on my idea list.
I'd say cut a think twice before cutting a ravings. Also, snapcaster seems horrifically unexciting in your decklist. Lastly, I'd say add frost titan in there somewhere. As a permission heavy deck, you seem vulnerable to the new breed of wolf run and frosty can help in that regard.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I'd say cut a think twice before cutting a ravings. Also, snapcaster seems horrifically unexciting in your decklist. Lastly, I'd say add frost titan in there somewhere. As a permission heavy deck, you seem vulnerable to the new breed of wolf run and frosty can help in that regard.
After playing with Snapcaster in this deck. I kinda want more. It has always been good for me in my games.
Definitely go with only 3 Tamiyo. While good, it is a control shell, you can dig until you find her. She is also the style of walker that you don't need to have multiple in hand. Once her ultimate goes off, it is GG. Also, I don't know about 4xing Inferno Titan. 2-3 ought to be more than enough. Also, Consecrated Sphinx is still pretty good. The danger of Inferno is Tragic Slip. Usually he ETB, then gets slipped. Kind of sucks.
Regarding card choices, the deck is geared towards the expectation that aggro is a going to be the bulk of the curent meta with the sideboard switching things up for stuff that isn't aggro. I've dropped leaks in favour of negates as the cavern cuts the leaks' ability to stop creatures, so often turning them into a weaker version of negate.
I haven't put any cavern's in as I don't think that resolving a creature should actually be a big deal for this deck, rather getting to the point that it's time to do so is the issue, alternatively it can burn out quite effectively.
I went with only 3 of the lighthouse as I never really need more than one of it and early game having two lightouses and not enough of one of the two colours can be an issue.
Red Sun's and pillar of flame are in large quantity to deal with undying creatures.
The Sideboard is meant to enable the deck to take on control and also to have a hefty answer to burn based decks.
This is very much a work in progress (I don't have quite a few of the cards yet) and I would therefore greatly appreciate critique, I'm not master deck builder and expect that there are several things wrong with this...
This deck looks very sweet. I will be working on this tonight I think. Koth or chandra may be pretty good in this deck also.
I'm not sure how Koth well Koth would fit, he seems to be more a fast beatdown card than a control card to me. I guess he could be there as a win con, perhaps instead of Inferno Titan.
Chandra, I've actually never played a Chandra or played against a Chandra, her ability to double spells could get more from the burn when it's needed, why do you think she'd be good?
Different point, titans as finishers? Yes or no? And Inferno or Frost? or a split as I currently have?
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I am going to be running rite of ruin and some number of bonefire of the damned, that is why I suggested Chandra or koth. Koth can accelerate you into these and Chandra can copy them.
As far as titans are concerned, I am not sure which is better honestly. I would go with 2 frost and one inferno since you have so much card draw.
I am going to be running rite of ruin and some number of bonefire of the damned, that is why I suggested Chandra or koth. Koth can accelerate you into these and Chandra can copy them.
As far as titans are concerned, I am not sure which is better honestly. I would go with 2 frost and one inferno since you have so much card draw.
Can I ask what role rite of ruin will be meant to fill?
I was orriginally going to use bonfire of the dammed in my list but I replaced it with slagstorm as I don't think it's reliable enough. I guess if you have Koth there specifically to set it up, though he only doubles the outputs from your mountains, so you'd probably want to skew the mana base towards mountains.
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
@Rjl I like the idea. But, I think keeping the 4x Dissipate mainboard is a wiser choice. Some things you just don't want your opponents to resolve, even when not playing against control.
A few notes:
-Ghost Quarter seems more relevant considering Cavern of Souls in the game now. Speaking of that you may want to consider Cavern of Souls since you only play two creature types mainboard, Humans and Giants.
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
Thanks for the suggestions, as I said I'm no expert and this is a WIP.
My initial thoughts, including reasons for the orriginal list (which may well be wrong) are as follows, as I'm looking both to build a good deck, and to know why it's a good deck, I'd be interested in any comments on these thoughts that I've had (in particular careful explanations of where I have the wrong idea):
1) Dissipate, I'm expecting most people to be running lots of creatures backed by cavern hence weakening counters to the point that they should be brought in when needed only, (this was a big departure for me as my last deck had 7 counters MB with more in the side), this could have been a bad choice.
2) Ghost quarter due to cavern. My thought had been to not bother dealing with cavern but rather to kill everything after it resolves, again maybe a bad choice, somewhat linked to my decission to cut most counters. (I note that I have no real plan for dealing with wolf run)
3) I'd decided not to play cavern as I was streamlining the deck for the early game vs aggro and assuming that the late game would take care of itself, the creatures obviously not being relevent in the first couple of turns and having a shortage of either red or blue being a potential issue. Cavern would obviously help a lot against any permission focussed deck.
4) Zealous conscripts I honestly hadn't thought of, I can instantly see that being a great card to bring in against planeswalker based control decks, or any deck that focuses around bringing out one fattie (I note he would be very good against this deck...).
5) I've never played so many sweepers before I've just seen so much aggro around atm.
6) I'm confused at the suggestion of moving ravings to the sideboard, in my mind it's a key gas card for the deck rather than an answer to a different strategy, I'd think cut it or mainboard it would be the only real options?
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
Can I ask what role rite of ruin will be meant to fill?
I was orriginally going to use bonfire of the dammed in my list but I replaced it with slagstorm as I don't think it's reliable enough. I guess if you have Koth there specifically to set it up, though he only doubles the outputs from your mountains, so you'd probably want to skew the mana base towards mountains.
Rite of Ruin keeps with the subtle land destruction plan and gives the deck a reliable sweeper against anything. If its a titan deck you ranch their lands and the titan (possibly the Sphere of the suns if they have some out). If its birthing pod, you kill the pod and the dudes. If it's tempered steel, they scoop. It keeps the creature/land count down so tamiyo can do her thing and if you ever have out a chandra, they probably just lose. This card is much, much better than destructive force in the current meta. We are running slagstorm//whipflare and ratchet bombs to keep the early creature count down also, so you dont have to worry about then sacrificing thier weakest creatures.
Bonefire is just because I wanted to have a random miracle card in my deck with desolate lighthouse and I run ponders. Ambitious, but not costing me anything to run it.
@Chiaki: I didn't know there was a subtle land destruction plan, I also note that Rite of Ruin will hit your own lands as badly as their lands. And a deck like this wants it's land... I guess if you have Koth going on to boost your mana that could change a bit.
Hmm, running ponder is somethign I thought about, but I wanted to be draw go as much as I could be, that may be an error, but when they do something bad having a desperate ravings to flash in response in desperate hope does actually often find what you need...
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
6) I'm confused at the suggestion of moving ravings to the sideboard, in my mind it's a key gas card for the deck rather than an answer to a different strategy, I'd think cut it or mainboard it would be the only real options?
Yeah I just moved them to the sideboard just to see what the deck would look like with the dissipates main. Since we have lighthouse now and you can select your discard instead of randomly, it might be best to eliminate ravings in favor of ponder. Or find a way to fit ponder in with ravings and put dissipate back to sideboard like you have it.
[card=Dismal Failure]"Two magi could trade spells all day and never crown a victor.
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you." —Venser[/card]
Well once you add in Tamiyo, Frost Titan, and Rite of Ruin - you start to be able to keep their lands in check. It's not part of your typical game plan, and honestly frost titan and rite of ruin aren't exactly bff's, but it helps against control and wolf run.
Also draw-go hasn't been good for quite a while. The best answers to what your opponent is doing is sorcery speed and counterspells are not as reliable as they used to be with cards like Carvern of Souls and werewolves in the format. For 1 blue, ponder is just want you want to be casting to keep up with your opponent.
My reasons for not trusting the lighthouse to take the roll of ravings are as follows:
1) If an answer is needed early the lighthouse won't find it as it takes 4 mana to use. The first turn you can use somethign found by the lighthouse is turn 5, as opposed to turn 3 you can be using something found by ravings.
2) The lighthouse lets you see only 1 extra card rather than two.
Obviously if you already have a good hand and just wish to tweak it (as would happen late in a game) the lighthouse is better than ravings by a distance, but if your current hand has no answer to what the op has just done and you need something ravings gives you a bit more chance than the house.
I would also note that ravings often won vs faithless looting, as ravings does give you an extra card whereas looting leaves you with the same number of cards you started with, the lighthouse does this as well. (obviously the lighthouse has instant speed which faithless looting doesn't have)
This topic is very interesting to me as I love the way the two colors can mesh together currently. But my thoughts thus far
First Ravings is quite good and I would certainly play that over/with any other card drawing engine in the format with the way these deck lists are panning out.
Second, I see very little mana leak usage in these lists. While I understand that cavern of souls is an issue I also feel that people may be going overboard when looking at how to deal with it(especially in a deck like this with so much creature control). Mana Leak may not be an instant 4 of anymore but I'm not sure I would slash them from my list entirely especially with things like slagstorm and dissipate needing double R or U. Sometimes on turn three you do not have that luxury and mana leak obviously can deal with much more than simply creatures.
Very little snapcaster usage in the lists but maybe I am missing something(or blind).
Third, any thoughts on this in comparison to say a U/B Tamiyo Control shell? I've been playing U/B for a while now and Tamiyo seems like a solid walker for what is conducive to the deck. Where do you think the meta will lean in a few weeks for control? U/B or U/R (Theorycrafting ftl)
Well once you add in Tamiyo, Frost Titan, and Rite of Ruin - you start to be able to keep their lands in check. It's not part of your typical game plan, and honestly frost titan and rite of ruin aren't exactly bff's, but it helps against control and wolf run.
Also draw-go hasn't been good for quite a while. The best answers to what your opponent is doing is sorcery speed and counterspells are not as reliable as they used to be with cards like Carvern of Souls and werewolves in the format. For 1 blue, ponder is just want you want to be casting to keep up with your opponent.
Rite of Ruin.... I didn't even consider this card! Seem like it is good against titans and Thrun which both of this cards are pretty awesome against this deck.
I have been wondering about Pillar of Flame vs G.Blast. One gets rid of the card for good but the other one is good at keep our mana used effective and be able to kill creature in response to sword equipment and maybe even soulbound trigger if that becomes a thing.
Well, I've been playing a list from SCG (with tweaks) and it's been working well for me. I find this deck wants to wipe the board constantly for the first few turns (humans, delver, zombies) and then follow up with big things that can tap down late game threats (wolf run)
If Cavern really does start ruling the meta (it won't rule mine), than I would switch the counters for black removal and splash black to make it grixis. NOTHING can stand that much removal. Think about it. 5 mainboard weenie wipes (6 if you count ratchet bomb), 4-9 Spot Removal (Pillar+Black Spells) and the rest is threats that TAP DOWN YOUR OPPONENTS TREATS. All while drawing cards and sculpting your hand.
The sideboard options are many right now but I am trying to find the right balance.
Trying to calculate the right numbers for these sideboard cards. I mean obviously the counters will be coming out for move removal against the Cavern decks etc, but how many of each is a different matter.
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EDH RADAMARO, FIRST TO DESIRER UKEFNET THE MINDFULU GSASAYA, OROCHI ASCENDANTG MODERN RMONO-RED ELDRAZIR
I been personally been playing 3 whipflare 3 slagstorm 0 bombs I am pretty sure this isn't correct. I feel like there should be 2ish bombs in the deck. I was thinking of just going 3 whipflare 1 slagstorm and 2 bombs. Bonfire of the Damned is a pretty interesting card. I did some testing with it. I personal experience with it is just high variance but if you run ponder it could be very good.
I run 3/4/0 in that order. I had 4/4/0 at one point but I feel like I was just drawing cards and just die to the board because I wasn't doing anything with it. Maybe Blue's Zenith has a place in our deck; maybe not? The only time I ran this card was in UW and UB control and it seem way better in UW because of the Pristine Talisman (another card to think about for this deck)
I personally think that Tamiyo, Karn and maybe even Jace do have a place for this deck but the other two don't. They just seem so underwhelming. As of right now my deck has 4 Tamiyo and 1 Karn. It might be one too many Tamiyo but that card is sooooo good when I draw it. Karn is just the nuts against any deck. Jace is very good against control mirrors.
I think they are really close. One exiles a creature from the game which is very good but at the same time it is sorcery spell. They can slam down swords and just get a sword hit off. Galvanic Blast is instant and It can kill our oppenents turn 1 draw if we are on the play but if we are on the play with Pillar of Flame we have to use one of our 2 mana to kill there one drop then we are pretty much tapped out for there 2 drop. I think it matters a lot but I could be totally wrong.
There are many options but we need to figure out which ones are the best for this deck. Seem like most people are picking Frost Titan; which I don't think it is 100% correct. I feel like aggro swarms it a bigger deal but in the end I think it mainly what your meta is. Frost Titan for Ramp? Inferno Titan for really heavy aggro decks? Consecrated Sphinx for control? Wurmcoil Engine for heavy removal aggro decks? There has to be a correct one.
The issue by picking a counter package is dependent how many many Cavern of Souls we see. I think all sorts of deck will be running 1-4 of them. So our counters against creatures are getting worst and worst. But at the same time I don't believe that is true. We can always use are counter spells to counter non-creature spells.
Ghost Quarter - There are a lot of random lands we could blow up that are annoying
Desolated Lighthouse - I think this is easily in the top 3 nonbasic lands in type 2. I am not sure what is the correct number of these. I been running 4 because I think it is the nuts but it could be really greedy to do so. I think 3 is the safest number for this card.
Cavern of Souls - Even good in the control mirrors! I think running 1-2 is fine in this deck but in enemy color decks the manabase are not the greatest. Another things to think about.
Evolving Wilds - You should run at lease two if you don't you are just wrong!
Random Green Splash for Ancient Grudge - I was thinking about doing this but if you do this I think you need to cut down the colorless lands to 3-4 or maybe not? I am not a 100% sure. The splash seems worth it tho.
Is there any other questions that you ask yourself that people could throw out. I would like people to answer this to see where they are coming from if they have the time.
I been personally been playing 3 whipflare 3 slagstorm 0 bombs I am pretty sure this isn't correct. I feel like there should be 2ish bombs in the deck. I was thinking of just going 3 whipflare 1 slagstorm and 2 bombs. Bonfire of the Damned is a pretty interesting card. I did some testing with it. I personal experience with it is just high variance but if you run ponder it could be very good.
I have been happy with 2 ratchet bombs and 3 slagstorms but you do need other sweepers on top of these or at least some card that instantly stabilizes the board. They just get you to the late game.
I run 3/4/0 in that order. I had 4/4/0 at one point but I feel like I was just drawing cards and just die to the board because I wasn't doing anything with it. Maybe Blue's Zenith has a place in our deck; maybe not? The only time I ran this card was in UW and UB control and it seem way better in UW because of the Pristine Talisman (another card to think about for this deck)
I have settled on 2 Tezzeret's Gamit, 4 think twice, 2 ravings for now. The miser Blue Sun's Zenith is always useful against decks with d.i. removal as it is a win condition they cannot interact with. It is not necessary to the deck, but you should include some incremental card advantage to make up for the fact you have no massive card draw
I personally think that Tamiyo, Karn and maybe even Jace do have a place for this deck but the other two don't. They just seem so underwhelming. As of right now my deck has 4 Tamiyo and 1 Karn. It might be one too many Tamiyo but that card is sooooo good when I draw it. Karn is just the nuts against any deck. Jace is very good against control mirrors.
Jace is probably good in this deck, but I haven't had room. Chandra almost gets no love from anyone so I will at least try to make some selling points for her. She is keeps gravecrawlers under control and can kill an undying dude with a sweeper (first copy resolves and they comeback, then second copy resolves and kills them dead). Slagstorm copied can kill titans. Chandra + Slagstorm kills a hero. She keeps lingering souls under control as long as there are no anthems involved (not all that likely but you do have ratchet bombs to kill those) and she is the stone cold nutter-butters with Rite of Ruin or any big finishing spell. She can also keeps most planeswalkers in check (she aces sorin and liliana). Also tezz's gambit.
Karn is probably the stones in this deck and I will have to make room for him at some point. I agree with 4 tamiyo's, but my 5's are clogged with batterskulls.
I think they are really close. One exiles a creature from the game which is very good but at the same time it is sorcery spell. They can slam down swords and just get a sword hit off. Galvanic Blast is instant and It can kill our oppenents turn 1 draw if we are on the play but if we are on the play with Pillar of Flame we have to use one of our 2 mana to kill there one drop then we are pretty much tapped out for there 2 drop. I think it matters a lot but I could be totally wrong.
Exiling has been the most amazing thing ever against everything. You can just kill a Strangleroot Geist, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, Solemn Simulacrum, Moorland Haunt, and Chandra's Phoenix.
There are many options but we need to figure out which ones are the best for this deck. Seem like most people are picking Frost Titan; which I don't think it is 100% correct. I feel like aggro swarms it a bigger deal but in the end I think it mainly what your meta is. Frost Titan for Ramp? Inferno Titan for really heavy aggro decks? Consecrated Sphinx for control? Wurmcoil Engine for heavy removal aggro decks? There has to be a correct one.
I have been running Batterskull, Frost Titan, and Chandra's Phoenix so far. The only one that has stood out to me has been batterskull as that card is just unreal (you can even bounce it back to you hand the turn before you cast rite of ruin). Frost Titan has been good at keeping Kessig Wolf Run and other titans off my back, but its not that resilient to removal. I think Karn may just be the best of all the win conditions with frost titan being the next best. The fact that we have a hard time dealing with other bombs makes us very limited in what we can actually run.
The issue by picking a counter package is dependent how many many Cavern of Souls we see. I think all sorts of deck will be running 1-4 of them. So our counters against creatures are getting worst and worst. But at the same time I don't believe that is true. We can always use are counter spells to counter non-creature spells.
2 Mana Leak and 2 Dissipates has been acceptable so far. We need them to deal with opposing planeswalkers and Oblivion Rings/Pods/Swords.I also run 3 negates in the board
Ghost Quarter - There are a lot of random lands we could blow up that are annoying
Desolated Lighthouse - I think this is easily in the top 3 nonbasic lands in type 2. I am not sure what is the correct number of these. I been running 4 because I think it is the nuts but it could be really greedy to do so. I think 3 is the safest number for this card.
Cavern of Souls - Even good in the control mirrors! I think running 1-2 is fine in this deck but in enemy color decks the manabase are not the greatest. Another things to think about.
Evolving Wilds - You should run at lease two if you don't you are just wrong!
Random Green Splash for Ancient Grudge - I was thinking about doing this but if you do this I think you need to cut down the colorless lands to 3-4 or maybe not? I am not a 100% sure. The splash seems worth it tho.
I like my mana base so far. I have even gone as far as to put 2 Alchemist's Refuge in my board just to make sure I demolish the control matchups. 2 Lighthouse, 2 Ghost Quarter, 1 Evolving Wilds, 4 green sources is how I run it. You don't want too many etb tapped lands so you have to careful when you balance Sulfur Falls and the like with non-basics. I have been toying with the idea of running green in the deck just for beast within and garruk relentless as I had alot of success with those in UW control
3x Dungeon Geist
2x Frost Titan
Instant (15)
3x Think Twice
1x Negate
3x Mana Leak
1x Dissipate
4x Desperate Ravings
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Galvanic Blast
Sorcery (9)
4x Whipflare
2x Slagstorm
2x Pillar of Flame
1x Devil's Play
1x Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalker (4)
3x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Karn Liberated
Land (26)
4x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
5x Mountain
6x Island
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Hinterland Habor
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Volition Reins
1x Negate
1x Dissipate
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Flashfreeze
2x Phantasmal Image
2x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Batterskull
3x Dungeon Geist
2x Frost Titan
Instant (15)
3x Think Twice
1x Negate
3x Mana Leak
1x Dissipate
4x Desperate Ravings
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Galvanic Blast
Sorcery (9)
4x Whipflare
2x Slagstorm
1x Red Sun's Zenith
2x Pillar of Flame
1x Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalker (4)
3x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Karn Liberated
Land (26)
4x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
5x Mountain
6x Island
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Hinterland Habor
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Volition Reins
1x Negate
1x Dissipate
1x Batterskull
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Flashfreeze
2x Phantasmal Image
2x Jace, Memory Adept
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Dungeon Geist
2x Frost Titan
1x Phantasmal Image
Instant (13)
3x Think Twice
1x Negate
3x Mana Leak
1x Dissipate
4x Desperate Ravings
1x Ancient Grudge
4x Whipflare
2x Slagstorm
1x Red Sun's Zenith
3x Pillar of Flame
Artifacts (1)
1x Ratchet Bomb
Planeswalker (4)
3x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Karn Liberated
3x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
5x Mountain
8x Island
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Hinterland Habor
1x Rootbound Crag
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Inferno Titan
Instant (15)
4x Think Twice
1x Negate
3x Mana Leak
3x Galvanic Blast
1x Dissipate
3x Desperate Ravings
3x Whipflare
3x Slagstorm
1x Red Sun's Zenith
Land (26)
4x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
6x Mountain
8x Island
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Karn Liberated
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Inferno Titan
Instant (16)
4x Think Twice
1x Negate
3x Mana Leak
3x Galvanic Blast
1x Dissipate
4x Desperate Ravings
3x Whipflare
3x Slagstorm
1x Devil's Play
Land (26)
4x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
6x Mountain
8x Island
2x Evolving Wilds
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
4x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
Anti-Aggro
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Batterskull
1x Whipflare
1x Slagstorm
1x Dungeon Geists
Anti-Legendary
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Red Sun's Zenith
1x Pillar of Flame
Random
1x Shrine of Burning Rage
1x Dissipate
1x Frost Titan
1x Spirit Away
1x Negate
1x Ponder
1x Spellskite
1x Temporal Mastery
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Karn Liberated
1x Volition Reins
1x Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
1x Devil's Play
1x Dismember
1x Gut Shot
1x Flashfreeze
1x Ancient Grudge
Been trying to brew a deck for GP Minneapolis and as of right now Tamiyo, the Moon Sage is my favorite card in the new set. I think it has a lot of potential.
Was thinking about adding like 4-5 green sources to the main deck for Ancient Grudge. I could go with a heavy splash of green for Huntmaster of the Fells and/or Beast Within depending how many green sources I truly need.
I really like all the numbers in the deck. I only have one Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded in there just to test him out. I want to be able to decide if he is standard playable or not or even good in this deck.
I think this deck has alot of good things for it. Cheap wraths, a lot of card draw, and very powerful creatures in the format.
Some question to ask yourself.
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@arbitraryarmor - Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded hasn't done anything to interesting in my games yet. I will probably be cutting him soon for something on my idea list.
After playing with Snapcaster in this deck. I kinda want more. It has always been good for me in my games.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Creature (6)
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Inferno Titan
1x Frost Titan
Instant (13)
3x Think Twice
2x Negate
4x Shock
4x Desperate Ravings
Sorcery (12)
4x Whipflare
3x Slagstorm
2x Pilar of Flame
3x Red Sun's Zenith
3x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
7x Mountain
8x Island
4x Evolving Wilds
Planeswalker (3)
3x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Creatures (5)
2x Phantasmal Image
3x Spellskite
2x Witchbane Orb
4x Dissipate
2x Negate
1x Pillar of Flame
Regarding card choices, the deck is geared towards the expectation that aggro is a going to be the bulk of the curent meta with the sideboard switching things up for stuff that isn't aggro. I've dropped leaks in favour of negates as the cavern cuts the leaks' ability to stop creatures, so often turning them into a weaker version of negate.
I haven't put any cavern's in as I don't think that resolving a creature should actually be a big deal for this deck, rather getting to the point that it's time to do so is the issue, alternatively it can burn out quite effectively.
I went with only 3 of the lighthouse as I never really need more than one of it and early game having two lightouses and not enough of one of the two colours can be an issue.
Red Sun's and pillar of flame are in large quantity to deal with undying creatures.
The Sideboard is meant to enable the deck to take on control and also to have a hefty answer to burn based decks.
This is very much a work in progress (I don't have quite a few of the cards yet) and I would therefore greatly appreciate critique, I'm not master deck builder and expect that there are several things wrong with this...
I'm not sure how Koth well Koth would fit, he seems to be more a fast beatdown card than a control card to me. I guess he could be there as a win con, perhaps instead of Inferno Titan.
Chandra, I've actually never played a Chandra or played against a Chandra, her ability to double spells could get more from the burn when it's needed, why do you think she'd be good?
Different point, titans as finishers? Yes or no? And Inferno or Frost? or a split as I currently have?
As far as titans are concerned, I am not sure which is better honestly. I would go with 2 frost and one inferno since you have so much card draw.
Can I ask what role rite of ruin will be meant to fill?
I was orriginally going to use bonfire of the dammed in my list but I replaced it with slagstorm as I don't think it's reliable enough. I guess if you have Koth there specifically to set it up, though he only doubles the outputs from your mountains, so you'd probably want to skew the mana base towards mountains.
A few notes:
-Ghost Quarter seems more relevant considering Cavern of Souls in the game now. Speaking of that you may want to consider Cavern of Souls since you only play two creature types mainboard, Humans and Giants.
-Zealous Conscripts?
Here is what I thought of when I got your decklist:
2 Inferno Titan
1 Frost Titan
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (24):
3 Think Twice
4 Dissipate
3 Shock
2 Negate
2 Desperate Ravings
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Slagstorm
3 Whipflare
3 Red Sun's Zenith
3 Tamiyo, The Moon Sage
Lands (26):
3 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Evolving Wilds
8 Island
7 Mountain
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Spellskite
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Desperate Ravings
2 Negate
1 Shock
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Whipflare
1 Jace, Memory Adept
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Thanks for the suggestions, as I said I'm no expert and this is a WIP.
My initial thoughts, including reasons for the orriginal list (which may well be wrong) are as follows, as I'm looking both to build a good deck, and to know why it's a good deck, I'd be interested in any comments on these thoughts that I've had (in particular careful explanations of where I have the wrong idea):
1) Dissipate, I'm expecting most people to be running lots of creatures backed by cavern hence weakening counters to the point that they should be brought in when needed only, (this was a big departure for me as my last deck had 7 counters MB with more in the side), this could have been a bad choice.
2) Ghost quarter due to cavern. My thought had been to not bother dealing with cavern but rather to kill everything after it resolves, again maybe a bad choice, somewhat linked to my decission to cut most counters. (I note that I have no real plan for dealing with wolf run)
3) I'd decided not to play cavern as I was streamlining the deck for the early game vs aggro and assuming that the late game would take care of itself, the creatures obviously not being relevent in the first couple of turns and having a shortage of either red or blue being a potential issue. Cavern would obviously help a lot against any permission focussed deck.
4) Zealous conscripts I honestly hadn't thought of, I can instantly see that being a great card to bring in against planeswalker based control decks, or any deck that focuses around bringing out one fattie (I note he would be very good against this deck...).
5) I've never played so many sweepers before I've just seen so much aggro around atm.
6) I'm confused at the suggestion of moving ravings to the sideboard, in my mind it's a key gas card for the deck rather than an answer to a different strategy, I'd think cut it or mainboard it would be the only real options?
Rite of Ruin keeps with the subtle land destruction plan and gives the deck a reliable sweeper against anything. If its a titan deck you ranch their lands and the titan (possibly the Sphere of the suns if they have some out). If its birthing pod, you kill the pod and the dudes. If it's tempered steel, they scoop. It keeps the creature/land count down so tamiyo can do her thing and if you ever have out a chandra, they probably just lose. This card is much, much better than destructive force in the current meta. We are running slagstorm//whipflare and ratchet bombs to keep the early creature count down also, so you dont have to worry about then sacrificing thier weakest creatures.
Bonefire is just because I wanted to have a random miracle card in my deck with desolate lighthouse and I run ponders. Ambitious, but not costing me anything to run it.
Hmm, running ponder is somethign I thought about, but I wanted to be draw go as much as I could be, that may be an error, but when they do something bad having a desperate ravings to flash in response in desperate hope does actually often find what you need...
Yeah I just moved them to the sideboard just to see what the deck would look like with the dissipates main. Since we have lighthouse now and you can select your discard instead of randomly, it might be best to eliminate ravings in favor of ponder. Or find a way to fit ponder in with ravings and put dissipate back to sideboard like you have it.
:symr::symu: Reality Bites
:symr::symu: Delver Cyclops
:symr::symu: Niv Control EDH
:symg::symw: Sigarda EDH
The real battle is not one of power but of will.
If your confidence breaks, so too shall you."
—Venser[/card]
Also draw-go hasn't been good for quite a while. The best answers to what your opponent is doing is sorcery speed and counterspells are not as reliable as they used to be with cards like Carvern of Souls and werewolves in the format. For 1 blue, ponder is just want you want to be casting to keep up with your opponent.
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Slagstorm
2 Rite of Ruin
2 Desperate Ravings
1 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Think Twice
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Dissipate
2 Ponder
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Copperline Gorge
7 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
6 Island
2 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Vessel of Endless Rest
1 Batterskull
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Alchemist's Refuge
3 Negate
1 Memory’s Journey
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1) If an answer is needed early the lighthouse won't find it as it takes 4 mana to use. The first turn you can use somethign found by the lighthouse is turn 5, as opposed to turn 3 you can be using something found by ravings.
2) The lighthouse lets you see only 1 extra card rather than two.
Obviously if you already have a good hand and just wish to tweak it (as would happen late in a game) the lighthouse is better than ravings by a distance, but if your current hand has no answer to what the op has just done and you need something ravings gives you a bit more chance than the house.
I would also note that ravings often won vs faithless looting, as ravings does give you an extra card whereas looting leaves you with the same number of cards you started with, the lighthouse does this as well. (obviously the lighthouse has instant speed which faithless looting doesn't have)
First Ravings is quite good and I would certainly play that over/with any other card drawing engine in the format with the way these deck lists are panning out.
Second, I see very little mana leak usage in these lists. While I understand that cavern of souls is an issue I also feel that people may be going overboard when looking at how to deal with it(especially in a deck like this with so much creature control). Mana Leak may not be an instant 4 of anymore but I'm not sure I would slash them from my list entirely especially with things like slagstorm and dissipate needing double R or U. Sometimes on turn three you do not have that luxury and mana leak obviously can deal with much more than simply creatures.
Very little snapcaster usage in the lists but maybe I am missing something(or blind).
Third, any thoughts on this in comparison to say a U/B Tamiyo Control shell? I've been playing U/B for a while now and Tamiyo seems like a solid walker for what is conducive to the deck. Where do you think the meta will lean in a few weeks for control? U/B or U/R (Theorycrafting ftl)
Rite of Ruin.... I didn't even consider this card! Seem like it is good against titans and Thrun which both of this cards are pretty awesome against this deck.
I have been wondering about Pillar of Flame vs G.Blast. One gets rid of the card for good but the other one is good at keep our mana used effective and be able to kill creature in response to sword equipment and maybe even soulbound trigger if that becomes a thing.
3 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Hinterland Harbor
8 Island
4 Sulfur Falls
8 Mountain
3 Dungeon Geists
1 Phantasmal Image
3 Frost Titan
Spells (27)
4 Pillar Of Flame
3 Slagstorm
2 Whipflare
3 Mana Leak
1 Dissipate
2 Negate
4 Think Twice
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Desperate Ravings
3 Tamiyo, The Moon Sage
If Cavern really does start ruling the meta (it won't rule mine), than I would switch the counters for black removal and splash black to make it grixis. NOTHING can stand that much removal. Think about it. 5 mainboard weenie wipes (6 if you count ratchet bomb), 4-9 Spot Removal (Pillar+Black Spells) and the rest is threats that TAP DOWN YOUR OPPONENTS TREATS. All while drawing cards and sculpting your hand.
The sideboard options are many right now but I am trying to find the right balance.
Surgical Extraction: For the up and coming Griselbrand deck.
Jace, Memory Adept: Wins against heavy control
Zealous Conscripts: Great against wolf run, can close out games out of nowhere.
Ancient Grudge: Swords
Mind Control: Gotta love this against Wolf Run
Ratchet Bomb: Tokens?
Dungeon Geists: Bring in the 4th against Wolf Run
Slagstorm/Whipflare: Complete the set of sweepers for game 2. Remove counters.
Trying to calculate the right numbers for these sideboard cards. I mean obviously the counters will be coming out for move removal against the Cavern decks etc, but how many of each is a different matter.
RADAMARO, FIRST TO DESIRER
UKEFNET THE MINDFULU
GSASAYA, OROCHI ASCENDANTG
MODERN
RMONO-RED ELDRAZIR
What is the optimal number of wraths?(Whipflare/Slagstorm/Ratchet Bomb/Bonfire of the Damned)
How Much card draw? (Desperate Ravings/Think Twice/Blue Sun's Zenith)
Number of walkers? (Tamiyo, The Moon Sage/Karn Liberated/Jace, Memory Adept/Chandra, the Firebrand/Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded)
Pillar Of Flame vs Galvanic Blast
What or How do we kill them? (Frost Titan/Inferno Titan/Consecrated Sphinx/Wurmcoil Engine)
Correct counter package? (Mana Leak/Negate/Dissipate/Psychic barrier)
Manabase options? (Ghost Quarter/Desolate Lighthouse/Cavern of Souls/Evolving Wilds/Random Green Splash for Ancient Grudge)
Is there any other questions that you ask yourself that people could throw out. I would like people to answer this to see where they are coming from if they have the time.
I have been happy with 2 ratchet bombs and 3 slagstorms but you do need other sweepers on top of these or at least some card that instantly stabilizes the board. They just get you to the late game.
I have settled on 2 Tezzeret's Gamit, 4 think twice, 2 ravings for now. The miser Blue Sun's Zenith is always useful against decks with d.i. removal as it is a win condition they cannot interact with. It is not necessary to the deck, but you should include some incremental card advantage to make up for the fact you have no massive card draw
Jace is probably good in this deck, but I haven't had room. Chandra almost gets no love from anyone so I will at least try to make some selling points for her. She is keeps gravecrawlers under control and can kill an undying dude with a sweeper (first copy resolves and they comeback, then second copy resolves and kills them dead). Slagstorm copied can kill titans. Chandra + Slagstorm kills a hero. She keeps lingering souls under control as long as there are no anthems involved (not all that likely but you do have ratchet bombs to kill those) and she is the stone cold nutter-butters with Rite of Ruin or any big finishing spell. She can also keeps most planeswalkers in check (she aces sorin and liliana). Also tezz's gambit.
Karn is probably the stones in this deck and I will have to make room for him at some point. I agree with 4 tamiyo's, but my 5's are clogged with batterskulls.
Exiling has been the most amazing thing ever against everything. You can just kill a Strangleroot Geist, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, Solemn Simulacrum, Moorland Haunt, and Chandra's Phoenix.
I have been running Batterskull, Frost Titan, and Chandra's Phoenix so far. The only one that has stood out to me has been batterskull as that card is just unreal (you can even bounce it back to you hand the turn before you cast rite of ruin). Frost Titan has been good at keeping Kessig Wolf Run and other titans off my back, but its not that resilient to removal. I think Karn may just be the best of all the win conditions with frost titan being the next best. The fact that we have a hard time dealing with other bombs makes us very limited in what we can actually run.
2 Mana Leak and 2 Dissipates has been acceptable so far. We need them to deal with opposing planeswalkers and Oblivion Rings/Pods/Swords.I also run 3 negates in the board
I like my mana base so far. I have even gone as far as to put 2 Alchemist's Refuge in my board just to make sure I demolish the control matchups. 2 Lighthouse, 2 Ghost Quarter, 1 Evolving Wilds, 4 green sources is how I run it. You don't want too many etb tapped lands so you have to careful when you balance Sulfur Falls and the like with non-basics. I have been toying with the idea of running green in the deck just for beast within and garruk relentless as I had alot of success with those in UW control