I love the Titans, and I'm just curious as to why the Titans aren't seen that much in Modern, at least from what I can tell.
Is it because 6 mana cost makes them too expensive for Modern, which is a much faster format than Standard? Is it the removal that is available? Or is it some other factor?
Are there any tournament competitive decks that use the Titans?
I think if anything Cavern of Souls might change whether or not they are playable.
Right now Primeval sees play in a couple of ramp decks (To fetch Tron Pieces) and that's about it.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
@ Hinotama, thats kind of what I figured, but even so I still think that a 6/6 creature with a etb and attack effect would be played more, seeing as how good they are.
@ the_cardfather, I hope so, I love using it in standard to force through my Titans, but Modern is my favorite format.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
speeds not the issue. Modern can get to 6 mana turn 3/4 with out much sweat. Its the meta, and Efficiency being the key words you want say. Why do Grave titan when you can crank out more citters with lingering souls? Why inferno titan when you get more burn out of grimlavamacer. You need a big beater? Well hello tarmogoyf or knight.
Path to Exile is a pretty good reason not to play any of the Titans.
It's not that their mana cost is too high, per se.. but rather their effect on the game is too little for that mana cost. You can spend 6 to cast Inferno Titan, but if he just gets Pathed at your end step, well that was a very expensive Lightning Bolt wasn't it?
Path to Exile is a pretty good reason not to play any of the Titans.
It's not that their mana cost is too high, per se.. but rather their effect on the game is too little for that mana cost. You can spend 6 to cast Inferno Titan, but if he just gets Pathed at your end step, well that was a very expensive Lightning Bolt wasn't it?
and this is why prime time DOES see fringe play......getting ANY two lands from your deck into play for 6 mana seems about fair.
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Path to Exile is a pretty good reason not to play any of the Titans.
It's not that their mana cost is too high, per se.. but rather their effect on the game is too little for that mana cost. You can spend 6 to cast Inferno Titan, but if he just gets Pathed at your end step, well that was a very expensive Lightning Bolt wasn't it?
Legacy has access to removal better than what's available in Modern. And they play Grave Titan. It's the fact that the meta is pretty hostile to Midrange decks.
ketchakik, I was just about to mention that. The removal options in modern are far superior to those in Standard, and the format plays out very differently. The difference between 1cmc all creatures removal and 2cmc some creatures removal is surprising. Additionally, while the titans are undoubtedly the best creatures in standard right now, they have far, far more competition in modern. There are just better cards that impact the game earlier for less effort.
ketchakik, I was just about to mention that. The removal options in modern are far superior to those in Standard, and the format plays out very differently. The difference between 1cmc all creatures removal and 2cmc some creatures removal is surprising. Additionally, while the titans are undoubtedly the best creatures in standard right now, they have far, far more competition in modern. There are just better cards that impact the game earlier for less effort.
What cards have as much impact on the board as the Titans? Between Primeval, Inferno, and Grave?
There isn't a cheaper creature that does more as soon as it hits the table for less than 6cc; nor is there a creature printed that is nearly as threatening.
What cards have as much impact on the board as the Titans? Between Primeval, Inferno, and Grave?
There isn't a cheaper creature that does more as soon as it hits the table for less than 6cc; nor is there a creature printed that is nearly as threatening.
OMG I'M going to do it! VEXING DEVIL! THATS RIGHT. INFERNO DOES 3 FOR 6, VEX DOES IT FOR 1
Haha, aside from comparing my favorite little animal to a titan... My point is still valid. Why spend that much to simply have it taken away from you. When your spending chump change its less damage if it gets kicked. Vex costs 1. thats why hes good. Knight can be just like prime, comes down turn 2/3, and gets bigger.
PS. I'm making my professional Animator GF make me a new sig with a little freakin vexing devil staring up a giant Inferno titan, arms crossed and saying "Come at me, Bro!"
Sure, I play Grave Titan and Sun Titan in Legacy Nic Fit, but that's about the only deck where they are played from what I know. They still eat their fair share of Plowshares, but the deck also runs methods to fight the exile via Phyrexian Tower and recur them via Recurring Nightmare.
As far as I know, no other deck has the mana ramp or supporting deck to throw them out so quickly and thus its a very corner case in Legacy.
The same idea could be ported to Modern, I just don't think anyone has done so yet.
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Also, consider that Liliana counts as occasional mana denial, and it starts to become a significant portion of our strategy.
Sun Titan shows up as a Dread Return target in Vintage and Legacy Dredge. Both Sun Titan and Grave Titan are hardcast in Legacy Nic Fit. It took a while for a deck that wanted to hardcast a Titan showed up but the power level they provide is enough for decks to want to use them. Just because there isn't a deck right now that wants them doesn't mean there never will be. It's hard to beat a 2 turn clock that matches up well against spot removal, sacrifice, chump blocks and lifegain while also providing good defense in the form of blockers. Veteran Explorer as an enabler doesn't exist in Modern but that doesn't mean a deck can't pop up that would like a powerful 6 mana finisher.
OMG I'M going to do it! VEXING DEVIL! THATS RIGHT. INFERNO DOES 3 FOR 6, VEX DOES IT FOR 1
Haha, aside from comparing my favorite little animal to a titan... My point is still valid. Why spend that much to simply have it taken away from you. When your spending chump change its less damage if it gets kicked. Vex costs 1. thats why hes good. Knight can be just like prime, comes down turn 2/3, and gets bigger.
PS. I'm making my professional Animator GF make me a new sig with a little freakin vexing devil staring up a giant Inferno titan, arms crossed and saying "Come at me, Bro!"
With Vexing they have the ability to dismember it; so while like you said, it's incredibly efficient and still gets in for 4; He doesn't have the same Board presence (potentially) That Inferno would have. Knight takes a couple turns to be as big as Prime, and takes a couple turns to be able to tutor things that Prime can; I'm more concerned with Grave and Sun Titan though; they're the two all-stars in Legacy; I guess i missed mentioning Sun in my post. Sun is like Reveilark on Steroids, and Grave, even when removed still poops out 4 power worth of zombies.
There's gotta be a decent way to be able to play Grave Titan faster in the format. I'm going to find it.
But, I do love Vexing Devil, and in an unrelated note "The Torm Zoo", has acquired 3 of the little dudes, one is shiny ;), it's almost ready to be opened to the public.
With Vexing they have the ability to dismember it; so while like you said, it's incredibly efficient and still gets in for 4; He doesn't have the same Board presence (potentially) That Inferno would have. Knight takes a couple turns to be as big as Prime, and takes a couple turns to be able to tutor things that Prime can; I'm more concerned with Grave and Sun Titan though; they're the two all-stars in Legacy; I guess i missed mentioning Sun in my post. Sun is like Reveilark on Steroids, and Grave, even when removed still poops out 4 power worth of zombies.
There's gotta be a decent way to be able to play Grave Titan faster in the format. I'm going to find it.
But, I do love Vexing Devil, and in an unrelated note "The Torm Zoo", has acquired 3 of the little dudes, one is shiny ;), it's almost ready to be opened to the public.
Vexing devil really is the new honey badger...
Its true, two really are something else. But most of the game plans they further, you can do for cheaper for example relivark for suntitan. they are different, but generally, you can do the same thing with it.
Quite simply it's just a meta call. The titans don't scream "game over" the same way they do in standard when they hit the table. While they exist as a choice, they're not an instant go-to creature for many of the roles it covers in standard, so naturally they're only seen "sometimes" rather than all the time, which is a phenomena i'm rather enjoying right now. Titan dominated modern would turn off a lot of people from the format more than it would attract.
If valakut was legal, you can place your bets on primeval being around a ton.
1) There is a not insignificant section of the metagame (Delver, Fae, CawBlade, UW Tron) that have some countermagic. Fae is the only one that goes heavy on it, but even for the others, the thing they are sandbagging their one counter for is generally something that would swing the game...like a titan would.
2) Jund is the king of the midrange decks in modern. Its so good at it, it tends to push out others in the midrange game. Looking at the cards in Jund, Dark Confidant is pretty much ubiquitous, and flipping over a titan and taking 6 is not what people want to be doing.*
3) In order to invest the 6 mana in a titan, you need to be able to have already disrupted your opponent. There is a decent section of the metagame that has a combo win. You have to be pretty sure you have sufficiently disrupted them before you can tap out main phase and give them that big of an opening to just kill you.
* I played Jund in a PTQ, but I don't have any Dark Confidant. I did run a pair of titans, and they performed well.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Part of the reason they're not very playable is that quite a few decks often kill you before you play your titan. Twin, Storm, or jst about any other combo deck (GR Tron, Living End, etc) would all be fine with you having any amount of titans in your hand, aggro decks like UWR Delver, Burn, or Melira Pod all race titans as well.
Agreed with the above two posts. I'm basically fine with not getting much titan action going in Modern, though I would like to see Primeval in more than 1-2 decks (G/x tron and Summoning Trap) because he's clearly the most powerful and breakable in the format.
Every time I'm brewing something and reach for a 5-6 mana threat like a titan, I always realize that there's something already doing that job faster at 4 or less.
Sun Titan in Dredge is simply bad. There is only one deck in Legacy that can use the titans: Nic Fit. And even there they are two flexible slots.
Actually its pretty insane, more-so in Vintage than in legacy since it lets you rebuy Bazaar which dredges the rest of your deck and wins you the game. Pretty much the same thing can be said with Cephalid Colosseum in Legacy but its slightly more dicey since you do need another land to be able to crack it.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
They're playable, but need dedicated strategies built around them.
I don't think Frost or Inferno titan are very playable with that being said.
As others have mentioned, why waste 6 mana on a titan when you can play a 2 mana goyf that can win the game faster, is a strong early game blocker, and gets around countermagic much easier?
Unless you're doing some inherently degenerate things with Sun Titan (which is possible) or grabbing a few ramp pieces with Prime Time, there really just isn't that great of a reason to be playing titans. It's not that they're unplayable, but typically, there are better options for most decks. Most modern decks also have a much higher grade of synergy in them than standard decks do, so it rarely comes down to simply dropping the most powerful bomb, and in the cases where you do want the most powerful bombs, you want them to come out turn 2-4, not way late in a game.
It's also worth considering modern curves are generally much lower, which allows a lower land count, and higher spell count. This isn't always practical when you're sandbagging a 6 mana titan.
As for legacy, they're played in Nic Fit usually as singletons because they have way better ramp than anything Modern can pull off via Veteran Explorer.
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Is it because 6 mana cost makes them too expensive for Modern, which is a much faster format than Standard? Is it the removal that is available? Or is it some other factor?
Are there any tournament competitive decks that use the Titans?
If Valakut was legal, Primeval might see some play.
Right now Primeval sees play in a couple of ramp decks (To fetch Tron Pieces) and that's about it.
@ the_cardfather, I hope so, I love using it in standard to force through my Titans, but Modern is my favorite format.
Grave Titan sees play in a very popular deck in Legacy. So it's not the speed or the counters available that's keeping them out. It's the meta itself.
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It's not that their mana cost is too high, per se.. but rather their effect on the game is too little for that mana cost. You can spend 6 to cast Inferno Titan, but if he just gets Pathed at your end step, well that was a very expensive Lightning Bolt wasn't it?
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and this is why prime time DOES see fringe play......getting ANY two lands from your deck into play for 6 mana seems about fair.
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
Legacy has access to removal better than what's available in Modern. And they play Grave Titan. It's the fact that the meta is pretty hostile to Midrange decks.
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What cards have as much impact on the board as the Titans? Between Primeval, Inferno, and Grave?
There isn't a cheaper creature that does more as soon as it hits the table for less than 6cc; nor is there a creature printed that is nearly as threatening.
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
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OMG I'M going to do it! VEXING DEVIL! THATS RIGHT. INFERNO DOES 3 FOR 6, VEX DOES IT FOR 1
Haha, aside from comparing my favorite little animal to a titan... My point is still valid. Why spend that much to simply have it taken away from you. When your spending chump change its less damage if it gets kicked. Vex costs 1. thats why hes good. Knight can be just like prime, comes down turn 2/3, and gets bigger.
PS. I'm making my professional Animator GF make me a new sig with a little freakin vexing devil staring up a giant Inferno titan, arms crossed and saying "Come at me, Bro!"
As far as I know, no other deck has the mana ramp or supporting deck to throw them out so quickly and thus its a very corner case in Legacy.
The same idea could be ported to Modern, I just don't think anyone has done so yet.
-MTG Salvation.
With Vexing they have the ability to dismember it; so while like you said, it's incredibly efficient and still gets in for 4; He doesn't have the same Board presence (potentially) That Inferno would have. Knight takes a couple turns to be as big as Prime, and takes a couple turns to be able to tutor things that Prime can; I'm more concerned with Grave and Sun Titan though; they're the two all-stars in Legacy; I guess i missed mentioning Sun in my post. Sun is like Reveilark on Steroids, and Grave, even when removed still poops out 4 power worth of zombies.
There's gotta be a decent way to be able to play Grave Titan faster in the format. I'm going to find it.
But, I do love Vexing Devil, and in an unrelated note "The Torm Zoo", has acquired 3 of the little dudes, one is shiny ;), it's almost ready to be opened to the public.
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
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You haven't lived until you've cast instant-speed Frost Titan.
Vexing devil really is the new honey badger...
Its true, two really are something else. But most of the game plans they further, you can do for cheaper for example relivark for suntitan. they are different, but generally, you can do the same thing with it.
If valakut was legal, you can place your bets on primeval being around a ton.
Modern: Twin URW Wilted Abzan WBG
Legacy: Stax WWW Maverick WBG
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1) There is a not insignificant section of the metagame (Delver, Fae, CawBlade, UW Tron) that have some countermagic. Fae is the only one that goes heavy on it, but even for the others, the thing they are sandbagging their one counter for is generally something that would swing the game...like a titan would.
2) Jund is the king of the midrange decks in modern. Its so good at it, it tends to push out others in the midrange game. Looking at the cards in Jund, Dark Confidant is pretty much ubiquitous, and flipping over a titan and taking 6 is not what people want to be doing.*
3) In order to invest the 6 mana in a titan, you need to be able to have already disrupted your opponent. There is a decent section of the metagame that has a combo win. You have to be pretty sure you have sufficiently disrupted them before you can tap out main phase and give them that big of an opening to just kill you.
* I played Jund in a PTQ, but I don't have any Dark Confidant. I did run a pair of titans, and they performed well.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
They're just too big and slow for the format
Every time I'm brewing something and reach for a 5-6 mana threat like a titan, I always realize that there's something already doing that job faster at 4 or less.
Actually its pretty insane, more-so in Vintage than in legacy since it lets you rebuy Bazaar which dredges the rest of your deck and wins you the game. Pretty much the same thing can be said with Cephalid Colosseum in Legacy but its slightly more dicey since you do need another land to be able to crack it.
I don't think Frost or Inferno titan are very playable with that being said.
As others have mentioned, why waste 6 mana on a titan when you can play a 2 mana goyf that can win the game faster, is a strong early game blocker, and gets around countermagic much easier?
Unless you're doing some inherently degenerate things with Sun Titan (which is possible) or grabbing a few ramp pieces with Prime Time, there really just isn't that great of a reason to be playing titans. It's not that they're unplayable, but typically, there are better options for most decks. Most modern decks also have a much higher grade of synergy in them than standard decks do, so it rarely comes down to simply dropping the most powerful bomb, and in the cases where you do want the most powerful bombs, you want them to come out turn 2-4, not way late in a game.
It's also worth considering modern curves are generally much lower, which allows a lower land count, and higher spell count. This isn't always practical when you're sandbagging a 6 mana titan.
As for legacy, they're played in Nic Fit usually as singletons because they have way better ramp than anything Modern can pull off via Veteran Explorer.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn