Green sun's zenith. I recently added it to my cube, more because I like the card than anything else. How has it performed for you guys, and what's your favorite thing to grab with it? Is only grabbing green creatures good enough?
Mostly good, its great when you grab multicolors like a Knight of the Reliquary or even Jenara, Asura of War. Found it hilarious grabbing Coiling Oracles or a Spiritmonger as well. I haven't played Spiritmonger in a long time!
I found that my green section contains a lot of toolbox answers in the form of green creatures and GSZ give's green a way to find them. Some tutoring and card advantage in green is good.
I seem to use it to grab my finisher in ramp occasionally, but most often to grab a missing mana elf on T2 or a Naturalize creature when needed. I love grabbing a ramp creature early and redrawing it late game to grab a fatty.
I found that my green section contains a lot of toolbox answers in the form of green creatures and GSZ give's green a way to find them. Some tutoring and card advantage in green is good.
GSZ isn't card advantage.
It's a cool build-around-me card for heavy green decks, especially with a lot of toolbox critters. It wasn't as good in my smaller list because we did a lot of Winston and Sealed where it didn't really shine. But in a regular draft format with a larger group, it'll likely be a lot better than it was before. I may be testing it out again in the future.
Green's main strength is in creatures. Be it that they come with handy ETB abilities like Uktabi Orangutan, Acidic Slime or Eternal Witness, or fixing/ramping with Llanowar Elf, turning GSZ into a Rampant Growth of sorts, or fatties that win you the game; there's always a target that you'd want.
However, I don't have much practice with this card, these are just thoughts, but still: Green has such good creatures, and they can do such wildly different things (everything from Llanowar Elves over Deranged Hermit all the way through Primeval Titan is represented) why not add a tutor for them?
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
GSZ is basically a Demonic Tutor for green creatures at a cost of G
Forgetting the shuffle effect that is still very good. I've been happy to have it because it gives me another way to find the one creature I am looking for.
I played against a deck last week with it where the guy had Birds of Paradise, Wall of Blossoms, Viridian Shaman, Deranged Hermit, Sigarda, and Hornet Queen (among others, I just remember those). It was ridiculous. I don't remember if he had a great green four drop or not, but still, that's the deck you're trying to build with it.
GSZ is basically a Demonic Tutor for green creatures at a cost of G
This. And you can get almost everything on a green creature: mana acceleration, card draw, naturalize, life gain and regrowth. I think GSZ is great in green decks, and green decks are something I want to play because of cards like GSZ.
It's not quite a Demonic Tutor, because you have to play the mana for the tutor and the mana for the card you're tutoring at the same time, but it's a good toolbox effect for grabbing green creatures with ETB triggers. And additionally being able to grab ramp early and fatties later on plays nicely into green's ramp decks. A solid addition into any GG/x deck with a fair range of green creatures.
It's not quite a Demonic Tutor, because you have to play the mana for the tutor and the mana for the card you're tutoring at the same time, but it's a good toolbox effect for grabbing green creatures with ETB triggers. And additionally being able to grab ramp early and fatties later on plays nicely into green's ramp decks. A solid addition into any GG/x deck with a fair range of green creatures.
It also fixes mana, allowing you to find and cast otherwise hard to manage spells like Vorapede. Some times you don't get triple green easily..
This card just gets so much worse when you go from 60->40 cards. Not only it is easier to run a tutor box with silver bullets and cards at each cmc ( like Dryard Abor, which got the card banned in Modern), but with the cards that you naturally draw, you often get down to 5 or even less targets in your deck.
I think Worldly Tutor is preferable, since besides having almost twice the number of targets, it also allows you to get bigger creatures earlier.
And you would want to get big creatures early because...? You still have to cast them, mind you, which GSZ conveniently does for you. GSZ doesn't create card disadvantage, costs the same altogether, but can't be split up.
On the other hand, both Tutor and Zenith are really good cards and I don't see the point in saying Chain Lightning is worse than Lightning Bolt if both are perfectly playable.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
This card just gets so much worse when you go from 60->40 cards. Not only it is easier to run a tutor box with silver bullets and cards at each cmc ( like Dryard Abor, which got the card banned in Modern), but with the cards that you naturally draw, you often get down to 5 or even less targets in your deck.
Yawgmoth's Will is a million times worse in cube than constructed. I play with Yawgmoth's Will in cube anyways though. We should be discussing the merits of GSZ in cube, not comparing it with how it plays in constructed.
@NewbornMuse: He means you can get it into play a turn earlier which is a definite upside.
And you would want to get big creatures early because...?
Because it's better to have something earlier than later? On T4 I can Worldly Tutor for my 5-drop, and then play a land and cast it on T5. With Green Sun's Zenith, it's card parity instead of card disadvantage, but the tempo is slower because that same creature wouldn't resolve until T6.
But this:
Quote from NewbornMuse »
On the other hand, both Tutor and Zenith are really good cards and I don't see the point in saying Chain Lightning is worse than Lightning Bolt if both are perfectly playable.
Worldly tutor may also suffer against counter magic and shuffle effects, though I'm not really sure how relevant that is most of the time since I haven't played with it.
Worldly tutor may also suffer against counter magic and shuffle effects, though I'm not really sure how relevant that is most of the time since I haven't played with it.
It doesn't really suffer against either. It's an instant, so you're in control of when you cast it regarding shuffle effects. And against countermagic, it's no worse than GSZ. It's probably better, because you don't have to wait until you have 6 mana open to play your 5-drop. The creature comes down on-curve with the Tutor.
To me, Worldly Tutor provides more versatility IN the late game, while green sun's zenith provides more actual versatility between the early game and the late game.
Worldly Tutor goes and gets anything, but I'm not particularly likely to burn it turn one to get a mana elf to play turn 2, so that I can play my four drop on turn 3. The card disadvantage simply isn't worth it, and once I've burned it I can't ever cast it again. On the other hand, late in the game it can get Baneslayer Angel or Shriekmaw, which Green Sun can't.
Green Sun, on the other hand, is the perfect tutor to have early because it does function as a Rampant Growth on turn 2 if you have a Birds or Llanowar Elf, but also as a great threat later on to go get your Vorapede. Also, in 40 card land, if you cast Green Sun on turn 2, you might actually get to redraw it before the game is over. I'm not saying that's hugely likely, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
I cut Worldly Tutor because it never ended up making my lists. It would be the 24th or 25th card, and I'd cut it because my green deck couldn't easily make up the card disadvantage and I didn't have enough silver bullets that I really felt it was a necessary card. I don't think I've cut Green Sun from a deck that had a one drop and a 5 drop it could get.
I cut Worldly Tutor because it never ended up making my lists. It would be the 24th or 25th card, and I'd cut it because my green deck couldn't easily make up the card disadvantage and I didn't have enough silver bullets that I really felt it was a necessary card.
I find green to be the color that can most easily recover the card advantage (especially since the creature I'm grabbing will likely recover it for me), and that I'd almost always rather have my 8 best creatures and a tutor than my 9 best creatures. Being able to play the creature on-curve and hitting non-green creatures is key, and my creature suite is usually full of silver bullets.
If you simply sum up the amount of card advantage that a color generates (using each engine card twice and factoring in negative card advantage), green beats blue almost 2:1.
Given the number of two-for-one creatures in green this doesn't surprise me. But what do you mean by "engine card".
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I've had GSZ in my cube since it came out. Sure, only getting green creatures is what makes the card fair but it's still a tutor and tutor's are quite powerful when they are lowly costed like GSZ is at a single green mana basically. Even if you have only 7 targets with it, I would still play the card as it gives you more live topdecks due to its shuffle in ability as I greatly prefer drawing GSZ to a land lategame or some other durdle card. And if you have no targets left for it, then it's a dead draw sure but so is a land. But I agree with the chain lightning and lightning bolt comparison. Sure, chain lightning is strictly worse when you compare it to bolt but that doesn't mean you don't run chain lightning anyways.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I'm a big fan of GSZ. I consider it a staple. Green's utility is mostly on its creatures, and GSZ gets you what you what when you need it. It can act as a two mana ramp card by grabbing an elf or bird, or toolbox for any effect you need. Mid-late game, it's the best creature in your deck. Although it's worse when going from 40-60 cards, you can end up with more choice in the average cube deck than constructed decks, given that we have exclusively one-ofs.
Not to mention that it's incredibly useful in G/x or three colour builds to circumvent annoying mana costs like Rafiq of the Many.
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
360 Uncommons only Cube!
My $40 MTGO cube
Draft my cube at Cubetutor!
GSZ isn't card advantage.
It's a cool build-around-me card for heavy green decks, especially with a lot of toolbox critters. It wasn't as good in my smaller list because we did a lot of Winston and Sealed where it didn't really shine. But in a regular draft format with a larger group, it'll likely be a lot better than it was before. I may be testing it out again in the future.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
However, I don't have much practice with this card, these are just thoughts, but still: Green has such good creatures, and they can do such wildly different things (everything from Llanowar Elves over Deranged Hermit all the way through Primeval Titan is represented) why not add a tutor for them?
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Forgetting the shuffle effect that is still very good. I've been happy to have it because it gives me another way to find the one creature I am looking for.
http://hgcube.blogspot.com/ (help me Make my Custom CUBE!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=382498
The "Make a Proxy Thread
Redit Proxy Article "current gallery"
MY LEGACY ALTERS
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
It also fixes mana, allowing you to find and cast otherwise hard to manage spells like Vorapede. Some times you don't get triple green easily..
http://hgcube.blogspot.com/ (help me Make my Custom CUBE!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=382498
The "Make a Proxy Thread
Redit Proxy Article "current gallery"
MY LEGACY ALTERS
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
And you would want to get big creatures early because...? You still have to cast them, mind you, which GSZ conveniently does for you. GSZ doesn't create card disadvantage, costs the same altogether, but can't be split up.
On the other hand, both Tutor and Zenith are really good cards and I don't see the point in saying Chain Lightning is worse than Lightning Bolt if both are perfectly playable.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Yawgmoth's Will is a million times worse in cube than constructed. I play with Yawgmoth's Will in cube anyways though. We should be discussing the merits of GSZ in cube, not comparing it with how it plays in constructed.
@NewbornMuse: He means you can get it into play a turn earlier which is a definite upside.
Because it's better to have something earlier than later? On T4 I can Worldly Tutor for my 5-drop, and then play a land and cast it on T5. With Green Sun's Zenith, it's card parity instead of card disadvantage, but the tempo is slower because that same creature wouldn't resolve until T6.
But this:
Is more apt.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
It doesn't really suffer against either. It's an instant, so you're in control of when you cast it regarding shuffle effects. And against countermagic, it's no worse than GSZ. It's probably better, because you don't have to wait until you have 6 mana open to play your 5-drop. The creature comes down on-curve with the Tutor.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
Ya, Sylvan Tutor is far far worse, and would be vulnerable to countermagic.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Worldly Tutor goes and gets anything, but I'm not particularly likely to burn it turn one to get a mana elf to play turn 2, so that I can play my four drop on turn 3. The card disadvantage simply isn't worth it, and once I've burned it I can't ever cast it again. On the other hand, late in the game it can get Baneslayer Angel or Shriekmaw, which Green Sun can't.
Green Sun, on the other hand, is the perfect tutor to have early because it does function as a Rampant Growth on turn 2 if you have a Birds or Llanowar Elf, but also as a great threat later on to go get your Vorapede. Also, in 40 card land, if you cast Green Sun on turn 2, you might actually get to redraw it before the game is over. I'm not saying that's hugely likely, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
I cut Worldly Tutor because it never ended up making my lists. It would be the 24th or 25th card, and I'd cut it because my green deck couldn't easily make up the card disadvantage and I didn't have enough silver bullets that I really felt it was a necessary card. I don't think I've cut Green Sun from a deck that had a one drop and a 5 drop it could get.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I find green to be the color that can most easily recover the card advantage (especially since the creature I'm grabbing will likely recover it for me), and that I'd almost always rather have my 8 best creatures and a tutor than my 9 best creatures. Being able to play the creature on-curve and hitting non-green creatures is key, and my creature suite is usually full of silver bullets.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Given the number of two-for-one creatures in green this doesn't surprise me. But what do you mean by "engine card".
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Currently Playing:
Retired
Not to mention that it's incredibly useful in G/x or three colour builds to circumvent annoying mana costs like Rafiq of the Many.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms: