Is it possible to activate my fiend hunter's second ability first "when it leaves the battlefield" when I use cloudshift so it does not actually have a target creature to return and then when it returns activate its first ability so I permanently exile the targeted creature?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
Make the white queen run so fast, she hasn't got time to make you wise.
Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream.
Doctor, my eyes, tell me what you see. I hear their cries... just say if it's too late for me.
Doctor, my eyes...cannot see the sky. Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry?
You are correct it is possible to bounce/flicker the fiend hunter whilst the ETB is on the stack to permanently exile the targeted creature for the reasons you specified.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
You are correct it is possible to bounce/flicker the fiend hunter whilst the ETB is on the stack to permanently exile the targeted creature for the reasons you specified.
Cool and this is because I get to choose which abilities go on the stack first if a creature has multiple abilities, correct?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
Make the white queen run so fast, she hasn't got time to make you wise.
Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream.
Doctor, my eyes, tell me what you see. I hear their cries... just say if it's too late for me.
Doctor, my eyes...cannot see the sky. Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry?
Cool and this is because I get to choose which abilities go on the stack first if a creature has multiple abilities, correct?
Actually, no; it's because the abilities are put on the stack in the order they trigger. Because Fiend Hunter is leaving the battlefield before its first ability resolves, its second ability triggers, and does nothing when it resolves, since nothing's been exiled yet. Then the original ETB trigger resolves, exiling the original creature permanently. Note that when you do this, you'll also get to exile a new creature, since Fiend Hunter's ability will trigger again when it re-enters; this new creature WILL come back once Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield again.
it's because the abilities are put on the stack in the order they trigger.
This is incorrect. The abilities are put on the stack in an order of their controller's choice because they would be put on the stack at the same time, after Cloudshift has finished resolving.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 2 Magic Judge
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
This is incorrect. The abilities are put on the stack in an order of their controller's choice because they would be put on the stack at the same time, after Cloudshift has finished resolving.
True, but in this case it doesn't actually matter what order the abilities are when they get put on the stack. Fiend Hunter's second ability will resolve before the first instance of his first ability regardless of whether it is before or after the second instance.
This is incorrect. The abilities are put on the stack in an order of their controller's choice because they would be put on the stack at the same time, after Cloudshift has finished resolving.
No abilities are being put on the stack simultaneously in this situation though so there shouldn't be a choice. It would go like this wouldn't it?
ETB trigger goes on the stack as Fiend Hunter hits play.
Cloudshift hits the Fiend hunter causing a leaves play trigger to go on the stack.
Fiend Hunter reenters the battlefield adding another ETB trigger. So at the end the stack would look like:
ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter
LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
So you would resolve the first trigger and Fiend Hunter would lock that card down, then a LTB trigger for nothing would resolve, then the ETB trigger for the previous instance of Fiend Hunter would resolve and permanently exile a creature.
Not quite. When the Fiend Hunter enters the battlefield as it resolves, its first ability triggers.
You respond with Cloudshift, which does the following:
Fiend Hunter is exiled - here, its second ability triggers, but that trigger doesn't go on the stack yet. Fiend Hunter returns to the battlefield - here, its first ability triggers again, but that trigger doesn't go on the stack yet.
Now, since a spell has finished resolving and the active player would receive priority, state-based actions are checked (and there are none), so NOW abilities can go on the stack. Here, the controller can place the two abilities waiting to go on the stack in any order. In this particular case, that order is irrelevant---the Fiend Hunter's Leaves-the-battlefield ability will not do anything no matter when it resolves, because the triggered ability linked to it hasn't resolved yet (it's on the bottom of the stack, waiting patiently).
So your proposed stack is one possibility:
ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter
LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
But there is another possibility:
LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
But like I said, in this particular case, both possibilities have the same outcome.
Is it possible to activate my fiend hunter's second ability first "when it leaves the battlefield" when I use cloudshift so it does not actually have a target creature to return and then when it returns activate its first ability so I permanently exile the targeted creature?
Quote from King Pun »
Cool and this is because I get to choose which abilities go on the stack first if a creature has multiple abilities, correct?
I haven't seen anyone directly address this, but what I think you're asking, King Pun, is whether there's some way you can "use up" Fiend Hunter's leaves the battlefield ability with Cloudshift and not target a creature with the "exile" ability until you've done so.
i.e., it sounds to me like you're asking if you can cast Fiend Hunter, have it resolve, not put its first ability ("exile") on the stack, Cloudshift the Fiend Hunter, resolve the second ability ("return") without returning anything, then put the first ability on the stack when Fiend Hunter returns to the battlefield. The way you phrased some of that makes me think you're imagining something along those lines, but I apologize if I've misunderstood you.
If that is what you're asking, please note that the trick doesn't work quite like that. bimmerbot's and Aazadan's posts have already explained the sequence in detail, but just to emphasize, what's happening is that you DO target a creature with Fiend Hunter's "exile" ability when it first enters the battlefield, but you cause the Leaves the Battlefield ability to trigger and resolve first because Fiend Hunter left the battlefield with the first ability still on the stack. When it re-enters the battlefield from Cloudshift, the first ability will trigger a second time.
The end result will be that you can exile the first creature you targeted forever, and you may exile another target creature which will be returned if Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield again.
Make the white queen run so fast, she hasn't got time to make you wise.
Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream.
Doctor, my eyes, tell me what you see. I hear their cries... just say if it's too late for me.
Doctor, my eyes...cannot see the sky. Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry?
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Cool and this is because I get to choose which abilities go on the stack first if a creature has multiple abilities, correct?
Make the white queen run so fast, she hasn't got time to make you wise.
Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream.
Doctor, my eyes, tell me what you see. I hear their cries... just say if it's too late for me.
Doctor, my eyes...cannot see the sky. Is this the prize for having learned how not to cry?
Actually, no; it's because the abilities are put on the stack in the order they trigger. Because Fiend Hunter is leaving the battlefield before its first ability resolves, its second ability triggers, and does nothing when it resolves, since nothing's been exiled yet. Then the original ETB trigger resolves, exiling the original creature permanently. Note that when you do this, you'll also get to exile a new creature, since Fiend Hunter's ability will trigger again when it re-enters; this new creature WILL come back once Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield again.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
This is incorrect. The abilities are put on the stack in an order of their controller's choice because they would be put on the stack at the same time, after Cloudshift has finished resolving.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.
True, but in this case it doesn't actually matter what order the abilities are when they get put on the stack. Fiend Hunter's second ability will resolve before the first instance of his first ability regardless of whether it is before or after the second instance.
No abilities are being put on the stack simultaneously in this situation though so there shouldn't be a choice. It would go like this wouldn't it?
ETB trigger goes on the stack as Fiend Hunter hits play.
Cloudshift hits the Fiend hunter causing a leaves play trigger to go on the stack.
Fiend Hunter reenters the battlefield adding another ETB trigger. So at the end the stack would look like:
ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter
LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
So you would resolve the first trigger and Fiend Hunter would lock that card down, then a LTB trigger for nothing would resolve, then the ETB trigger for the previous instance of Fiend Hunter would resolve and permanently exile a creature.
You respond with Cloudshift, which does the following:
Fiend Hunter is exiled - here, its second ability triggers, but that trigger doesn't go on the stack yet.
Fiend Hunter returns to the battlefield - here, its first ability triggers again, but that trigger doesn't go on the stack yet.
Now, since a spell has finished resolving and the active player would receive priority, state-based actions are checked (and there are none), so NOW abilities can go on the stack. Here, the controller can place the two abilities waiting to go on the stack in any order. In this particular case, that order is irrelevant---the Fiend Hunter's Leaves-the-battlefield ability will not do anything no matter when it resolves, because the triggered ability linked to it hasn't resolved yet (it's on the bottom of the stack, waiting patiently).
So your proposed stack is one possibility:
ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter
LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
But there is another possibility:
LTB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for Fiend Hunter
ETB trigger for previous Fiend Hunter
But like I said, in this particular case, both possibilities have the same outcome.
This FAQ answers many of the common questions asked in the MTGS Rulings forum. Take a look!
I'm the editor/content manager of the Magic Rules Tips Blog - Bookmark this site for daily tips about game and tournament rules.
"Abstract concepts of perfect judging run headlong into the realities of how people play the game." - Toby Elliott (papa_funk)
My Type 4 Stack -- DCI Documents -- Comp Rules
I haven't seen anyone directly address this, but what I think you're asking, King Pun, is whether there's some way you can "use up" Fiend Hunter's leaves the battlefield ability with Cloudshift and not target a creature with the "exile" ability until you've done so.
i.e., it sounds to me like you're asking if you can cast Fiend Hunter, have it resolve, not put its first ability ("exile") on the stack, Cloudshift the Fiend Hunter, resolve the second ability ("return") without returning anything, then put the first ability on the stack when Fiend Hunter returns to the battlefield. The way you phrased some of that makes me think you're imagining something along those lines, but I apologize if I've misunderstood you.
If that is what you're asking, please note that the trick doesn't work quite like that. bimmerbot's and Aazadan's posts have already explained the sequence in detail, but just to emphasize, what's happening is that you DO target a creature with Fiend Hunter's "exile" ability when it first enters the battlefield, but you cause the Leaves the Battlefield ability to trigger and resolve first because Fiend Hunter left the battlefield with the first ability still on the stack. When it re-enters the battlefield from Cloudshift, the first ability will trigger a second time.
The end result will be that you can exile the first creature you targeted forever, and you may exile another target creature which will be returned if Fiend Hunter leaves the battlefield again.