Personally, I really hate the echo mechanic. Its just no fun. That said, I'm also horrible at making decisions regarding echo creatures as well, so maybe that's part of it.
Obviously, there are cards like Avalanche Riders and Keldon Champion that provide significant value before your next upkeep, but there is this crushing feeling when you pay three mana again for your Cradle Guard and then it gets killed. Or what about green aggro decks with Pouncing Jaguar, where hands that would normally be able to go one drop, two drop, three drop, or whatever, have to choose which part of their curve to ruin.
So I guess what this boils down to is: What echo cards are you running? How do you evaluate a lot off the echo cards that exist that might lie on the edge of playability? Also, I think this is different at different power levels, as the mana investment is a bigger deal, the more powerful things you could be doing with your mana.
The aggro echo cards (Pouncing Jaguar, Goblin Patrol, Albino Troll) weren't well received here, so they don't make the cut for us. As you mentioned, these are cards that make you feel bad when you don't get to use them after you've paid twice (no matter how small the investment).
Every other echo card I run provides some value up front. Plenty of the smaller guys are solid. Bone Shredder gets a guy, Ghitu Slinger deals some damage, Keldon Vandals break something, etc. Yes, I've invested a little more up front for the effect on these guys, but that's ok because they're strapped to guys, and I don't mind paying extra here for the shenanigans associated with that. And if I don't pay echo on them, that's fine too. I got my effect and a chump blocker for a turn.
Ring of Gix is a tough one for me. Not having played with it, it feels steep for an Icy.
I run all the echo cards that InsuranceMan mentions. If you support green aggro, you pretty much have to run Pouncing Jaguar. I've rarely found the echo on that or Goblin Patrol to disrupt my curve (I was going to say "never" but I can't swear to that). Albino Troll just has a good-sized body for the cost. There are few creatures that can profitably block him or attack into him on turns 2 and 3.
Ring of Gix is sometimes better than Icy Manipulator (when you need to tap something on turn 4, like a Sword-equipped Soltari, for example) and sometimes worse. At 500 cards, I have room for both and neither is near the cutting board.
Echo is a fine mechanic. Lots of echo cards do suck, but there are quite a number of cubeworthy ones.
Does anyone run Cradle Guard? Seems pretty horrible.
I don't mind echo at all. It's a balanced drawback that lets me have more value up front. And in some cases, it can be helpful as a built-in sac outlet. The aggro dudes were all good here; they play just fine with other 1cc cards.
That said, bad cards are bad, and Cradle Guard shouldn't be sullying your opinion of good echo creatures.
We had similar results to InsuranceMan. We're only running the echo cards that provide value up front when you play them. If you pay the Echo on Keldon Champion, Avalanche Riders, or Deranged Hermit, and they get killed, it sucks, but not nearly the same as when you pay the echo on Albino Troll and it gets killed.
I think on this one it depends entirely on what your playgroup enjoys. I know wtwlf's group must love it because they play the green aggro dudes with echo and swear by them, but even when I forced those cards, they never played well for me. This one seems like personal preference in a large way.
The cube needs a critical mass of 2-power 1-drops. Patrol/Jaguar are good creatures in that role. Especially if you build your deck with an extra few 1cc cards to compensate for the early curve. Most people don't do that, and they get pissed when their curve is disrupted. I don't play Albino Troll anymore, but I do like it.
I guess I might just need to give Patrol/Jaguars a fair try then, they're probably better than I think. Thanks for the feedback!
Yes, but like wtwlf says, make sure you are running enough aggro 1-drops across red and green (plus white and black). I usually drop Patrol/Jaguar and then next turn I pay echo, swing, and then cast something for 1 mana (dude, Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt, whatever).
Nobody likes Echo, since it is a drawback mechanic. But eidolon's list of echo cards commonly used and his proposed metric for when an echo card cuts it despite the drawback is pretty accurate.
The best echo cards are ones with ETB effects that are approximately worth the mana cost, and then the fact that they come attached to a body (even one with echo) just makes them abusable.
Yeah I guess the whole echo one drop thing particularly bugs me. My cube is peasant so I really don't have a choice but to run all of those one drops, etc. Thanks for the echo card data! I'm surprised so few cubes are running pouncing jaguar, I guess I thought green aggro was more widely supported.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Obviously, there are cards like Avalanche Riders and Keldon Champion that provide significant value before your next upkeep, but there is this crushing feeling when you pay three mana again for your Cradle Guard and then it gets killed. Or what about green aggro decks with Pouncing Jaguar, where hands that would normally be able to go one drop, two drop, three drop, or whatever, have to choose which part of their curve to ruin.
So I guess what this boils down to is: What echo cards are you running? How do you evaluate a lot off the echo cards that exist that might lie on the edge of playability? Also, I think this is different at different power levels, as the mana investment is a bigger deal, the more powerful things you could be doing with your mana.
Mimic Vat and other abuseable things come to mind.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Every other echo card I run provides some value up front. Plenty of the smaller guys are solid. Bone Shredder gets a guy, Ghitu Slinger deals some damage, Keldon Vandals break something, etc. Yes, I've invested a little more up front for the effect on these guys, but that's ok because they're strapped to guys, and I don't mind paying extra here for the shenanigans associated with that. And if I don't pay echo on them, that's fine too. I got my effect and a chump blocker for a turn.
Ring of Gix is a tough one for me. Not having played with it, it feels steep for an Icy.
Ring of Gix is sometimes better than Icy Manipulator (when you need to tap something on turn 4, like a Sword-equipped Soltari, for example) and sometimes worse. At 500 cards, I have room for both and neither is near the cutting board.
Echo is a fine mechanic. Lots of echo cards do suck, but there are quite a number of cubeworthy ones.
Does anyone run Cradle Guard? Seems pretty horrible.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
That said, bad cards are bad, and Cradle Guard shouldn't be sullying your opinion of good echo creatures.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think on this one it depends entirely on what your playgroup enjoys. I know wtwlf's group must love it because they play the green aggro dudes with echo and swear by them, but even when I forced those cards, they never played well for me. This one seems like personal preference in a large way.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Yes, but like wtwlf says, make sure you are running enough aggro 1-drops across red and green (plus white and black). I usually drop Patrol/Jaguar and then next turn I pay echo, swing, and then cast something for 1 mana (dude, Thoughtseize, Lightning Bolt, whatever).
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
The best echo cards are ones with ETB effects that are approximately worth the mana cost, and then the fact that they come attached to a body (even one with echo) just makes them abusable.