Stoneforge Mystic seems to be a shoe-in for most cubes at this point, so I'm not really wondering whether people find her to be worth inclusion. I think the far more interesting discussion is how much equipment you should be running to support her at different cube sizes.
I had 8 people draft a 450 two weeks ago, which means 90 cards weren't drafted. One of my drafters first picked Stoneforge Mystic, and never saw a single piece of equipment in the entire draft. He was hurt because Jitte was first picked on one side of him and Sword of War and Peace was first picked on his other side, but that doesn't mean the situation isn't worthy of discussion.
I currently run 11 pieces of equipment in my 450, and I've been shaving equipment constantly every time I want to squeeze something in. I suspect I may have gone too far. What are people's experiences with Stoneforge, how much equipment do you run to support her and at what size?
For reference, I'm running the 5 swords, Batterskull, Jitte, Skullclamp, Grafted Wargear, Bonesplitter, and Lightning Greaves.
You have the consensus eight best equipment plus nos. 9, 10 and 11 in some order (wargear, splitter, greaves). I honestly think this is the exact right number, possibly even one too many at 450.
This isn't a problem with equipment, its a problem with pick logic. You can't assume that you are getting equipment (most of it is high pickable and colorless, further moving it up the collective pick order), and therefore shouldn't fp stoneforge except out of a weak pack. If you want to add more, Loxodon Warhammer, Sword of Vengance, Behemoth Sledge and maybe even Leonin Bola are reasonable choices at larger sizes.
450, and 14 equipment. Flayer Husk, Basilisk Collar, and Loxodon Warhammer are the ones I have in addition to your 11.
For what it's worth, the equipment package we run has nothing to do with Stoneforge Mystic. These cards are all legitimately strong enough to include on their own. Stoneforge puts them over the top, of course, but any green / red aggro deck would be happy to pack a Jitte + Sword, for example. Aggro decks often need that extra punch to break through creatures stalemates, or to punish do-nothing control decks, and equipment goes a long way towards solving that problem.
Edit:
If you've got 11 equipment, that means each drafter should see approximately 11 / 450 * 45 = 1.1 pieces of equipment per draft. Your friend probably just got unlucky, as normally you would average just a hair over one piece per person.
This isn't a problem with equipment, its a problem with pick logic. You can't assume that you are getting equipment (most of it is high pickable and colorless, further moving it up the collective pick order), and therefore shouldn't fp stoneforge except out of a weak pack.
It was legimately a weak pack (I was two seats down from him, and there was very little in it when I saw it, I don't know exactly what went pick two though)
450, and 14 equipment. Flayer Husk, Basilisk Collar, and Loxodon Warhammer are the ones I have in addition to your 11.
For what it's worth, the equipment package we run has nothing to do with Stoneforge Mystic. These cards are all legitimately strong enough to include on their own. Stoneforge puts them over the top, of course, but any green / red aggro deck would be happy to pack a Jitte + Sword, for example. Aggro decks often need that extra punch to break through creatures stalemates, or to punish do-nothing control decks, and equipment goes a long way towards solving that problem.
Don't get me wrong, I love equipment. In fact, I used to have close to 20, and have been shaving a lot because I think I had too much (I'd regularly have decks with 3-4 pieces of equipment and have to cut something awesome just because I had too much)
The question, then, is not "should I run more equipment," but "how much equipment is correct if you want to run stoneforge", the same way you have to have enough artifacts for Tinker, or enough fatties for Reanimator. I could easily make any of the extra equipment cards you mentioned fit in, and many of them have been in the cube until very recently, but I've prioritized more utility artifacts or artifact creatures over them.
I think Stoneforge is great but is a bit overrated in this forum. If you draft her early, you have to accept that you may not get the equipment to run her. If I have even one equiment, I'll snap her up from a pack. I only need 2 pieces in a deck to run her.
Bonehoard is a really solid piece of equipment no one has mentioned yet.
Bonehoard is a really solid piece of equipment no one has mentioned yet.
I agree. It is the only one I run in addition to the 11 in JeffDerek's list. I think 11 or 12 equipment is fine when you run SFM in a 450 cards cube; sometimes you draft it and don't get the equipment to go along, but I don't think that is actually a problem.
He just got unlucky is all I want to say.
Really you could say the same thing when you pick tinker or a selective tutor "Oh there was no good targets" kind of deal. Think of them more as a 2 card combo. At the end of the day they will still be in the cube because they are indeed very strong cards but sometimes things dont line up properly and you have to just say oh well and move on. Many times I have first picked tinker and not seen a single target etc. It happens.
He just got unlucky is all I want to say.
Really you could say the same thing when you pick tinker or a selective tutor "Oh there was no good targets" kind of deal. Think of them more as a 2 card combo. At the end of the day they will still be in the cube because they are indeed very strong cards but sometimes things dont line up properly and you have to just say oh well and move on. Many times I have first picked tinker and not seen a single target etc. It happens.
Absolutely. And it looks like based on other people's lists that is the case. Still, I think the question is certainly warranted. It sounds like I'm on the low end of equipment at 450, but still have plenty. I might slot in one more piece next time I tweak things, but I don't feel the need to push it.
Like you say, not every draft is going to end up perfect, but and sometimes you won't find support for your first pick, but I just wanted to see if people thought that I had enough support for SFM.
She was absolutely killer for me at 360, but she gets worse as the cube gets bigger, unless you scale up your equipment by percentage, but that leads you to having a bunch of sub-par equipment cards. I think there are 10 staple equipment cards that should be in 360 cubes. So in a 720 list, if you're not using at least 20 pieces of equipment, she's going to be worse at that cube size (both because the quality of the targets are lower and the quantity by percentage is harder to draft together). For most cubes, she's still a staple. But she's probably best at 360.
Stoneforge Mystic seems to be a shoe-in for most cubes at this point, so I'm not really wondering whether people find her to be worth inclusion. I think the far more interesting discussion is how much equipment you should be running to support her at different cube sizes.
I had 8 people draft a 450 two weeks ago, which means 90 cards weren't drafted. One of my drafters first picked Stoneforge Mystic, and never saw a single piece of equipment in the entire draft. He was hurt because Jitte was first picked on one side of him and Sword of War and Peace was first picked on his other side, but that doesn't mean the situation isn't worthy of discussion.
I currently run 11 pieces of equipment in my 450, and I've been shaving equipment constantly every time I want to squeeze something in. I suspect I may have gone too far. What are people's experiences with Stoneforge, how much equipment do you run to support her and at what size?
For reference, I'm running the 5 swords, Batterskull, Jitte, Skullclamp, Grafted Wargear, Bonesplitter, and Lightning Greaves.
Its probably not going to be that good in a 2 man draft, you really need to see about 90% of the cards to definitely get an equipment. the other problem you run into is that all the equipment you mentioned are very high picks, this makes the chances of seeing them a bit lower as well. Basically its kind of like tinker in a way, but it actually has a few more reasonable targets. I think there is less than 11 cards I'd want to tinker for in most cubes.
She was absolutely killer for me at 360, but she gets worse as the cube gets bigger, unless you scale up your equipment by percentage, but that leads you to having a bunch of sub-par equipment cards. I think there are 10 staple equipment cards that should be in 360 cubes. So in a 720 list, if you're not using at least 20 pieces of equipment, she's going to be worse at that cube size (both because the quality of the targets are lower and the quantity by percentage is harder to draft together). For most cubes, she's still a staple. But she's probably best at 360.
She's definitely a lot worse at higher cube sizes because of the numbers game. Compare a 40 card cube deck with a 100 card commander deck. Even if you keep ratios consistent, your deck becomes subject to a much wider range of outcomes when you increase the card pool. It should be the same for cube sizes. Unless you apply a consistent ratio when randomizing your cube for a draft, she has the potential to be even more of a crapshoot than wtwlf indicates.
She's still a force to be reckoned with if you already have equipment under your belt, but she's a high-risk card at larger sizes. I'm not willing to dilute my colorless section for her because it sucks to be on the receiving end of a Sword while you're stuck with second-rate equipment.
I think that really depends on the deck. The equip cost on Loxodon Warhammer is a bit high now that we have so many Swords, but Bonehoard is really good because it is both an equipment and a creature. In the right deck, Lightning Greaves are very good as well. I think I would often prefer Bonehoard just because fetching a creature with Stoneforge Mystic is really really good.
If I'm playing the Stoneforge on curve, the Bonehoard is really unimpressive. Whereas a T3 Greaves can make so many 4-drops complete bombs, and it can turn my curve toppers into a Fires style deck.
Except Bonehoard, which won't do much for her at that stage in the game. She rarely carries equipment herself anyways. It's primarily used to make my other threats better, particularly the ones with evasion.
I'm not fond of her in creature light control decks at all. Equipment is less than stellar when you have a small number of creatures to attach them to, and she's not really a prime target.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Generally it's a good aggro-control equipment to pick up with Stoneforge if you have them both, as you'll have smaller disruptive guys, and then an equipment buffing them up based off the number of counterspells/hand disruption spells/kill spells you have.
For it's cheap cost, getting like +2/+0 (+scaling higher) and First Strike is really good..it's also a nice equipment for aggressive red-based decks with lots of burn if you can manage to stick it on a guy.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
I feel without Batterskull, Skullclamp or Kaldra Compleat (I don't run it though) in my deck, she's not really worth it.
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I feel without Batterskull, Skullclamp or Kaldra Compleat (I don't run it though) in my deck, she's not really worth it.
I think Stoneforge Mystic is easily one of the best white cards in cube (assuming you're not holding back on equipment). A 2 for 1 for that cheats things into play is busted at 1W.
Not running Batterskull / Clamp does lower its power level a bit, but I'd still cube it if I were cubing Jitte / critical mass of swords / etc.
Stoneforge Mystic seems to be a shoe-in for most cubes at this point, so I'm not really wondering whether people find her to be worth inclusion. I think the far more interesting discussion is how much equipment you should be running to support her at different cube sizes.
I had 8 people draft a 450 two weeks ago, which means 90 cards weren't drafted. One of my drafters first picked Stoneforge Mystic, and never saw a single piece of equipment in the entire draft. He was hurt because Jitte was first picked on one side of him and Sword of War and Peace was first picked on his other side, but that doesn't mean the situation isn't worthy of discussion.
I currently run 11 pieces of equipment in my 450, and I've been shaving equipment constantly every time I want to squeeze something in. I suspect I may have gone too far. What are people's experiences with Stoneforge, how much equipment do you run to support her and at what size?
For reference, I'm running the 5 swords, Batterskull, Jitte, Skullclamp, Grafted Wargear, Bonesplitter, and Lightning Greaves.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
This isn't a problem with equipment, its a problem with pick logic. You can't assume that you are getting equipment (most of it is high pickable and colorless, further moving it up the collective pick order), and therefore shouldn't fp stoneforge except out of a weak pack. If you want to add more, Loxodon Warhammer, Sword of Vengance, Behemoth Sledge and maybe even Leonin Bola are reasonable choices at larger sizes.
For what it's worth, the equipment package we run has nothing to do with Stoneforge Mystic. These cards are all legitimately strong enough to include on their own. Stoneforge puts them over the top, of course, but any green / red aggro deck would be happy to pack a Jitte + Sword, for example. Aggro decks often need that extra punch to break through creatures stalemates, or to punish do-nothing control decks, and equipment goes a long way towards solving that problem.
Edit:
If you've got 11 equipment, that means each drafter should see approximately 11 / 450 * 45 = 1.1 pieces of equipment per draft. Your friend probably just got unlucky, as normally you would average just a hair over one piece per person.
It was legimately a weak pack (I was two seats down from him, and there was very little in it when I saw it, I don't know exactly what went pick two though)
Don't get me wrong, I love equipment. In fact, I used to have close to 20, and have been shaving a lot because I think I had too much (I'd regularly have decks with 3-4 pieces of equipment and have to cut something awesome just because I had too much)
The question, then, is not "should I run more equipment," but "how much equipment is correct if you want to run stoneforge", the same way you have to have enough artifacts for Tinker, or enough fatties for Reanimator. I could easily make any of the extra equipment cards you mentioned fit in, and many of them have been in the cube until very recently, but I've prioritized more utility artifacts or artifact creatures over them.
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Bonehoard is a really solid piece of equipment no one has mentioned yet.
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Really you could say the same thing when you pick tinker or a selective tutor "Oh there was no good targets" kind of deal. Think of them more as a 2 card combo. At the end of the day they will still be in the cube because they are indeed very strong cards but sometimes things dont line up properly and you have to just say oh well and move on. Many times I have first picked tinker and not seen a single target etc. It happens.
Absolutely. And it looks like based on other people's lists that is the case. Still, I think the question is certainly warranted. It sounds like I'm on the low end of equipment at 450, but still have plenty. I might slot in one more piece next time I tweak things, but I don't feel the need to push it.
Like you say, not every draft is going to end up perfect, but and sometimes you won't find support for your first pick, but I just wanted to see if people thought that I had enough support for SFM.
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Its probably not going to be that good in a 2 man draft, you really need to see about 90% of the cards to definitely get an equipment. the other problem you run into is that all the equipment you mentioned are very high picks, this makes the chances of seeing them a bit lower as well. Basically its kind of like tinker in a way, but it actually has a few more reasonable targets. I think there is less than 11 cards I'd want to tinker for in most cubes.
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She's definitely a lot worse at higher cube sizes because of the numbers game. Compare a 40 card cube deck with a 100 card commander deck. Even if you keep ratios consistent, your deck becomes subject to a much wider range of outcomes when you increase the card pool. It should be the same for cube sizes. Unless you apply a consistent ratio when randomizing your cube for a draft, she has the potential to be even more of a crapshoot than wtwlf indicates.
She's still a force to be reckoned with if you already have equipment under your belt, but she's a high-risk card at larger sizes. I'm not willing to dilute my colorless section for her because it sucks to be on the receiving end of a Sword while you're stuck with second-rate equipment.
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So you say. I'd rather have the Greaves.
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"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Body and Mind
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Light and Shadow
Skullclamp
Umezawa's Jitte
Batterskull
Behemoth Sledge
Loxodon Warhammer
Bonehoard
Runechanter's Pike (it's actually pretty sweet)
Basilisk Collar
Lightning Greaves
Sword of Vengeance
Grafted Wargear
Manriki-Gusari
I think we're at around 480 cards, and it's pretty hard to not get at least 1 equipment.
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Generally it's a good aggro-control equipment to pick up with Stoneforge if you have them both, as you'll have smaller disruptive guys, and then an equipment buffing them up based off the number of counterspells/hand disruption spells/kill spells you have.
For it's cheap cost, getting like +2/+0 (+scaling higher) and First Strike is really good..it's also a nice equipment for aggressive red-based decks with lots of burn if you can manage to stick it on a guy.
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Basically this.
Any of the blue-based decks with early disruption are just awesome with Pike.
I feel without Batterskull, Skullclamp or Kaldra Compleat (I don't run it though) in my deck, she's not really worth it.
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I think Stoneforge Mystic is easily one of the best white cards in cube (assuming you're not holding back on equipment). A 2 for 1 for that cheats things into play is busted at 1W.
Not running Batterskull / Clamp does lower its power level a bit, but I'd still cube it if I were cubing Jitte / critical mass of swords / etc.
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