I've always liked this card. We played it with success in the Classic Cube, but it didn't make it into the combined list. I have a few players that are interested in playing it, especially with the addition of extra token support and the increase in X/U tempo decks being built.
I'd play it at 450. It's a pretty awesome card that produces some fun blue-tempo archetypes. It's kind of like Tooth and Nail or Wildfire, you pick up the card early and then try to figure out your deck based on it.
I love cards that allow you to incorporate more archetypes into the cube than are normally supported.
It's particularly awesome with token generation (obviously), and mana dorks. U/G and Bant are pretty common with it.
It's been in my cube for a while, and sees play. It used to be very popular in UG. With tokens getting a push in Innistrad block, Uw and UWB decks have been abusing it too.
It's similar to most build around me cards. Very powerful in the right deck but you need tools to make it work. This makes it's value largely dependent on how you draft your cube. In winston/sealed this card is pretty bad because it's difficult to get enough tools to make it work. In 8 man drafts it's very powerful and easily makes the cut at 450. I've had it in since I built my cube years ago and it's likely never leaving.
It never worked for me. If it was white or green, it would be pretty amazing. Blue wants this effect less than any other color. You are right in that it may be time to give it a second look, but for me and my group, I doubt it will be any better than it was the first time around.
It never worked for me. If it was white or green, it would be pretty amazing. Blue wants this effect less than any other color. You are right in that it may be time to give it a second look, but for me and my group, I doubt it will be any better than it was the first time around.
Cheers,
rant
You can try Glare of Subdual, but that loses a lot of the versatility that Opposition grants you.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
Yeah, I think that Glare of Subdual is awful because opposition is at its best locking down their lands on upkeep while you beat down with a token + sword or something. I think it's been summarized pretty well so far: great in the right deck, needs to show up early in the draft so you can build around it. I think it's definitely better than Equilibrium, and also better than the bounce all lands card from Urza's Saga. I think this card should be there at 450 if you support some amount of blue tempo.
Also Opposition can be very difficult to get off the table due to a lot of the enchantment removal being sorcery speed. I've lost a lot of games to Opposition holding stuff like Kor Sanctifiers in my hand but couldn't cast it because my opponent was mana screwing me.
You can try Glare of Subdual, but that loses a lot of the versatility that Opposition grants you.
glare is cool and i like it a lot, but it's no opposition. as people have said this is a sick build around me card because any kind of tokens or u/x beats deck can just set up a turn where out of nowhere the opponent is just locked down completely and now needs a disenchant (has to be an instant one to cause their only opportunity will be to float in their upkeep) or they're just toast.
imo this isn't just a high priority for the decks that want it, it's one of the keystones. i doubt i'll ever cut it.
e: sarnath'd (kids still saying that around here these days?)
also, yes this is better than equilib
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Never played it but my friends have expressed interested in playing it... but man is this card very annoying to play against. For that reason alone I don't want to add it.
These cards hose a deck that wants to invest a ton of value into a single permanent that is supposed to stabilize the board, and not interact otherwise. I think it is reasonable for those decks to be hosed, because the alternative is a fairly lame environment IMO.
Opposition (and Equilibrium since it was mentioned here) are cards whose amazingness is inversely proportional to how aberrant your blue section is compared to other sections of your cube. If you still have a old-school cube where 50% or fewer of blue's cards are creatures, or most of its creatures are 4+ mana, then both of these cards are build-around bombs that have the 'penalty' of costing mana that your deck doesn't otherwise want to run.
If blue in your cube has a reasonable number of creatures and can play a tempo game, then these cards are nearly windmill-slam bombs for many drafters.
In specific, Opposition is basically blue's land destruction bomb, often holding an opponent off of their mana as or more effectively than Crucible+Strip Mine combo -- except that it also has an alternate mode where it can break board stalls in various other sweet ways -- it is very effective at trumping decks that want to get large in order to invalidate your early plays -- they need to answer your Opposition before this play works.
Getting more than 1 of these cards in the same deck as Opposition is borderline silly.
This has always been my issue with the card. Doesn't getting any of these token producers online (with tokens surviving) plus a midrange enchantment win you most games anyway? Moat + Flying tokens? Tokens + Future Sight? Tokens + Phyrexian Arena? Tokens + Control Magic? Tokens + Humilty? Maybe Opposition locks down the game better than some of the other options, but it is also less useful on its own, right?
Opposition is pretty damn useful on it's own. It allows you to tap things EOT so you can swing with your team through their guys, or use your worst guy to tap down their best guy if you're D'ing up.
Opposition is pretty damn useful on it's own. It allows you to tap things EOT so you can swing with your team through their guys, or use your worst guy to tap down their best guy if you're D'ing up.
I would not describe needing a creature out to be an Icy as "pretty damn useful on it's own". It's not completely dead without an army, but clearly it is not worth a card and four mana if you have 0-1 creature.
This has always been my issue with the card. Doesn't getting any of these token producers online (with tokens surviving) plus a midrange enchantment win you most games anyway? Moat + Flying tokens? Tokens + Future Sight? Tokens + Phyrexian Arena? Tokens + Control Magic? Tokens + Humilty? Maybe Opposition locks down the game better than some of the other options, but it is also less useful on its own, right?
This assessment is pretty accurate, it's less useful on it's own but it's better at locking down the game since it can protect both itself and the tokens from sorcery speed removal and prevents the opponent from committing to the board.
When I played it in my classic cube back in the day, it was great. If you're playing a mid-range deck, using your 2 smaller creatures to disrupt their mana base or lock down attackers while your curve-topper wins the game for you, it can be very good in that role. You don't need to have 5+ creatures out on the board for this card to be a dealbreaker for your opponent in a way that other enchantments can't. Specifically, the ability to lock your opponent off of a color can be simply game-winning on its own, and it doesn't require more than 1-2 creatures, and no additional mana costs.
I don't have much experience with it in the full cube, but I did recently re-add it. After I get in some serious playtesting, I'll be sure to post results.
I wanted to circle back on this discussion because I'm considering cutting Opposition. It's not a bad card, but the situations where it's good (UG with mana elves, tokens, U/x tempo) just haven't really happened in any of the cubes I've drafted that included Opposition. Anyway, I wanted to hear some more discussion about Opposition before it goes.
I've always liked this card. We played it with success in the Classic Cube, but it didn't make it into the combined list. I have a few players that are interested in playing it, especially with the addition of extra token support and the increase in X/U tempo decks being built.
Thoughts?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I love cards that allow you to incorporate more archetypes into the cube than are normally supported.
It's particularly awesome with token generation (obviously), and mana dorks. U/G and Bant are pretty common with it.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
You can try Glare of Subdual, but that loses a lot of the versatility that Opposition grants you.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Morphling: Opposition turns him into an Icy Manipulator machine gun.
Also Opposition can be very difficult to get off the table due to a lot of the enchantment removal being sorcery speed. I've lost a lot of games to Opposition holding stuff like Kor Sanctifiers in my hand but couldn't cast it because my opponent was mana screwing me.
glare is cool and i like it a lot, but it's no opposition. as people have said this is a sick build around me card because any kind of tokens or u/x beats deck can just set up a turn where out of nowhere the opponent is just locked down completely and now needs a disenchant (has to be an instant one to cause their only opportunity will be to float in their upkeep) or they're just toast.
imo this isn't just a high priority for the decks that want it, it's one of the keystones. i doubt i'll ever cut it.
e: sarnath'd (kids still saying that around here these days?)
also, yes this is better than equilib
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Opposition (and Equilibrium since it was mentioned here) are cards whose amazingness is inversely proportional to how aberrant your blue section is compared to other sections of your cube. If you still have a old-school cube where 50% or fewer of blue's cards are creatures, or most of its creatures are 4+ mana, then both of these cards are build-around bombs that have the 'penalty' of costing mana that your deck doesn't otherwise want to run.
If blue in your cube has a reasonable number of creatures and can play a tempo game, then these cards are nearly windmill-slam bombs for many drafters.
In specific, Opposition is basically blue's land destruction bomb, often holding an opponent off of their mana as or more effectively than Crucible+Strip Mine combo -- except that it also has an alternate mode where it can break board stalls in various other sweet ways -- it is very effective at trumping decks that want to get large in order to invalidate your early plays -- they need to answer your Opposition before this play works.
Getting more than 1 of these cards in the same deck as Opposition is borderline silly.
My Legacy-Legal Cube <--- Draft It!
wtwlf123's Classic Cube
Lanxal's Pauper Cube
Cubers, UNITE! Don't forget to post your cube location on The Great Cube Map Thread
This has always been my issue with the card. Doesn't getting any of these token producers online (with tokens surviving) plus a midrange enchantment win you most games anyway? Moat + Flying tokens? Tokens + Future Sight? Tokens + Phyrexian Arena? Tokens + Control Magic? Tokens + Humilty? Maybe Opposition locks down the game better than some of the other options, but it is also less useful on its own, right?
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I would not describe needing a creature out to be an Icy as "pretty damn useful on it's own". It's not completely dead without an army, but clearly it is not worth a card and four mana if you have 0-1 creature.
This assessment is pretty accurate, it's less useful on it's own but it's better at locking down the game since it can protect both itself and the tokens from sorcery speed removal and prevents the opponent from committing to the board.
I don't have much experience with it in the full cube, but I did recently re-add it. After I get in some serious playtesting, I'll be sure to post results.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Same here. It's dominated games in every draft since adding it.
Deckbox tradelist/for sale
Draft my cube on cubetutor!
Check out my blog on Cube Archetypes!