What Legacy Will Dissension Have?

[Sr. Kitty]

This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, What Legacy Will Dissension Have?. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.

[Einsteinmonkey]

How does Nightcreep stop SalGame while they're going off?

[NightStar]

Superman's Robin...Jimmy Olsen?

[Talen Lee]

Since High Tide is a deck that goes off at instant speed by definition, the idea of somehow stopping them from winning by using nightcreep - especially in a blue deck with remands! - strikes me as indicating a fundamental ignorance about the deck.

Then you go on to list two green cards that are more expensive than existant options, or unnecessary, that even then are only good in a deck that itself isn't.

Then you mention Utopia Sprawl, saying 'well, it might be good somewhere'.

Then you say, about Augustin, in essence, 'I don't think it will work, but IF IT DOES YOU SAW IT HERE FIRST THANKS TO MY FRIEND!!!'

I stopped reading after that point.

[xepel]

It's evident that you didn't read it, Talin.

Reset-High Tide (the instant-speed version) needs to go off on the opponent's turn, after the upkeep step (or else Reset doesn't do anything). You Nightcreep on your own upkeep, and... it buys you a turn. Not too wonderful, but when all you need is another turn or so... it can be worth it.

[Dark Lord of Squirrels]

You could do it in response to the Reset, and even if they can play something on top of that, you've essentially countered Reset #1, which could just make them overextend and crap out. A bit iffy if you ask me, but it does work. Or at least has the potential of working.

IMO, Spell Snare is fully in the "Should" group. Pwns the hell out of Homebrew and isn't remotely dead against anything but combo (which you, the control player, should bag anyway).

I dunno about Voidslime... 3 mana's a lot for a counter in Legacy.

I like the idea of Bronze Bombshell with Endless Whispers a lot .

Swift Silence will not see play in Legacy for certain, and probably not anywhere else either... the only thing Legacy combo decks do in responce to their own spells is sacrifice LED, which won't get countered. The only use this sucker has is in counter wars... where it's WAYYYY too expensive.

Good article overall . You mentioned several cards I hadn't considered at all in the format.


(BTW, even if Sui black does come back, you don't wanna pick up any Juzams .)

[auntyjamima]

great article. i enjoyed it. ya i dont understand how nightcreep stops salgame but the high tide use is interesting.

[TheDragon]

Now you mention that the bombshell will deal 7. It should in fact kill the opponent almost at instant speed. They gain control and then sac it and take 7, it hits your graveyard and guess where it goes. So yes it does do 7 but numerous times. Even better combo in Casual.

I like the Natural Order and Simic Sky Swallower idea, you know why, because it was my idea. I've been waiting years for a great critter for the Order(needed to be green obviously, untarget is the best part, but then fling and trample, there will be no chumping this guy).

And Talen, I see that alot of your opinions are demeaning. Every article I read, there you are degrading it over and over.

I enjoy most articles I read and this is no exception. And yes the tutor will be banned within a month or 2.

[Aggro_zombies]

Originally Posted by Talen Lee

Since High Tide is a deck that goes off at instant speed by definition, the idea of somehow stopping them from winning by using nightcreep - especially in a blue deck with remands! - strikes me as indicating a fundamental ignorance about the deck.

Then you go on to list two green cards that are more expensive than existant options, or unnecessary, that even then are only good in a deck that itself isn't.

Then you mention Utopia Sprawl, saying 'well, it might be good somewhere'.

Then you say, about Augustin, in essence, 'I don't think it will work, but IF IT DOES YOU SAW IT HERE FIRST THANKS TO MY FRIEND!!!'

I stopped reading after that point.

QFT. against solidarity, either nightcreep will not resolve, or they'll go off in response. even if you play it during your upkeep, they still have turnabouts to untap with, although trying to go off with half the untap effects you would normally have is not very sexy.

augustin is horrible. for one thing, he's not out of bolt range. for another, there is a ton of creature hate in this format that can take him out easily. the benefit he gives you is too narrow to really be useful...why not just play the tempest medallions if you want cost reduction that badly? and sphere of resistance >>> this guy.

at least the tutor was spot-on. i don't think it's at a ban-able level, but it is very good in some decks.

i also noticed that you didn't mention some cards that are actually being tested right now. i know from mtg the source that several people are working on machinehead decks using jagged poppet as a way to wreck control after quickly emptying your hand in the early game. having not tested the decks myself, i can't speak for their viability, but the card at least deserved a mention. you also didn't mention research // development. if you're going to talk about all the benefits survival gets (and that deck hasn't been good since before needle came out), you might as well have mentioned this card and turboland.

[Talen Lee]

Originally Posted by xepel

It's evident that you didn't read it, Talin.

After I said that I didn't read it, it might be a big hint that maybe I didn't read it. I'm sorry, are we just going to sit here and quote the obvious, or worse, the blatantly stated?

Originally Posted by xepel

Reset-High Tide (the instant-speed version) needs to go off on the opponent's turn, after the upkeep step (or else Reset doesn't do anything). You Nightcreep on your own upkeep, and... it buys you a turn. Not too wonderful, but when all you need is another turn or so... it can be worth it.

You presume it resolves. You also presume that Reset Tide can only use Reset to win. You also presume that buying one turn vs High Tide is going to win you the game, especially if it cost you a card to do so.

We have this thing in a lot of cases - you may have heard of it, - where a new holy day effect is printed. And lo, nobody cares. Spending one card to buy one turn and do nothing else is a waste - Nightcreep doesn't even have the dignity of costing 1.

Then the author goes on to talk about a deck like Survival, which is already incredibly mana hungry and already boned vs High Tide, and suggests cutting a cheap card for a card that costs twice as much and more, and a countermeasure that needs a blue-moon arrangement to work.

So why the heck should I bother reading what the guy has to say? He ventures opinions in such a way that he looks ignorant, talking about decks in a way that indicates his knowledge seems to have been gathered from a wikipedia synopsis rather than actual research.

By all means, prove me wrong, sirrah author. But these 'points' don't seem to be going away, and I still don't see how a near-fog is good enough vs a deck that hardly cares what you do.

[MillionsKnives]

Originally Posted by TheDragon

Now you mention that the bombshell will deal 7. It should in fact kill the opponent almost at instant speed. They gain control and then sac it and take 7, it hits your graveyard and guess where it goes. So yes it does do 7 but numerous times. Even better combo in Casual.

Did you even bother to read Endless Whispers? The creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from play, chose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from that graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn."
Endless Whispers can not create instant wins, it does not even deal 7 each end of turn since your opponent has to chose a target opponent (most likely you), no matter which graveyard the creature hits, so you will regain control of the bombshell.

[hamster]

I realy liked the article aldo I have no idea about the format. I found it very funy that the rav shock lands are for budget builders were they are considerd to expensive everywere else. Very funy.

PS Yeah I'm quoted in a sig

[Mr. Nightmare]

Originally Posted by hamster

I realy liked the article aldo I have no idea about the format.

This seems to me to be the key requirement for enjoying the article. In general I feel like Sr. Kitty is a bad choice for MTGSalvation to represent the Legacy format, and I usually disagree strongly with everything he says, but I'm not writing articles, so I really don't have room to complain. Anyway, about this article.

Nightcreep is bad. Black decks already have a decent game vs. High Tide, due to the combination of hand and land disruption, plus a clock. Pikula in particular splashes white, so has access to a much better disruptive package in Abeyance and Orim's Chant, if it's even needed.

Stomphowler is ok in Survival, but Sex Monkey and Shaman are both half the cost. Most modern Survival builds have a very tight mana curve and few can afford the large cost of the Howler.

Loaming Shaman is a card I agree with, but not in the deck you said, rather, its amazing in the Gro mirror.

WTF @ Demonfire bringing Pros-Bloom back. That deck is awful by today's standards, and it needs a heck of a lot more to get it good again.

I'm not sure the card disadvantage of Natural Order will be good with Gro being Tier 1 in today's meta, but if that changed, SSS is a sure thing.

Where, oh where, is Trygon Predator? That card is a HOUSE. He's a Naturalize on a stick, with evasion, and in the base colors of the best deck in the format! I expect to see a lot of this guy running around.

By FAR, the most important card for Legacy to come out of this set is Infernal Tutor, and I expect once people catch on to how good IGG is, we can kiss it goodbye.

[xepel]

Originally Posted by Talen Lee

After I said that I didn't read it, it might be a big hint that maybe I didn't read it. I'm sorry, are we just going to sit here and quote the obvious, or worse, the blatantly stated?

Spiteful much?

Originally Posted by Talen Lee

You presume it resolves. You also presume that Reset Tide can only use Reset to win. You also presume that buying one turn vs High Tide is going to win you the game, especially if it cost you a card to do so.

"That card isn't good, it can be countered!" Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't say it was OMGAWSOME, I just said it could, possibly, buy you a turn. You had no idea how it could stop High Tide, I gave an instance. I didn't say anything else, you don't have be so snippy.

[Finn]

Where, oh where, is Trygon Predator? That card is a HOUSE. He's a Naturalize on a stick, with evasion, and in the base colors of the best deck in the format! I expect to see a lot of this guy running around.

Seriously? Hmm. I considered it briefly, but figured that Threshold was doing rather well with Pithing Needle. Perhaps it could be good as a sideboard card against Stax, Confinement, or Worship. But then, these are not top-level strategies right now. Am I missing something?

Survival IMO has a lot of good matchups right now. And as hard as Pithing Needle has been on that deck, Nullstone Gargoyle (for Welder Survival) is just as hard on its opponents. If these decks ever get back into the meta, Stomphowler will rarely be the weapon of choice against Needles and Lightning Rifts. Tin Street Hooligan and Kami of Ancient Law work very well in tandem instead.

Xepel, it's hard to argue with a politician who notes his ignorance (because he didn't read the whole article in this case) as a weapon against you. But I can state as a matter of fact that you are correct - it is possible. However, the most effective strategy black has against High Tide is one of many small stings, none of which cripple the deck, but as a group hold it back long enough to beat it down, often causing High Tide to attempt to go off without all the necessary resources in hand. Nightcreep does not aid this strategy, and is not a silver bullet. So it will definitely not be an inclusion for that purpose in any serious deck. Of course, this is akin to what Nightmare said.

Actually, as usual, Mr. Nightmare has things proper. And it's too bad he is not a writer.