What does everyone think of the Maniac? In most Cubes he's not good enough to break the R/G barrier of entry. There are two questions I've been asking myself...
1)Would I run him if he just cost R?
2)Would I run him if he just cost G?
Both answers are "yes" to me because he helps both colors get to the critical mass of 1-drops (and I support green aggro). I've been cheating a little bit lately in how I classify a few cards (ex: Lingering Souls in white). I'm thinking I might make an exception for this guy. How relevant will the "attacks each turn if able" clause truly be? I don't think in a true aggro deck it will matter too often.
Here are the red 1-drops I would rank it behind (in no particular order):
My green section has two different purposes (ramp & aggro) so he's behind most creatures in that color. Still, I would run him in either color if he was reprinted today as either just a red or green creature. Am I alone in my line of thinking?
Both answers are "no" to me. Having to attack is a terrible, terrible drawback. Being unable to block is bad enough, but having to attack is just 10x worse. There's too much combat in the cube. Sometimes (every time?) not attacking into their untapped 3-drop is really important. Hold off until you can clear a path and then go back to attacking. This is a critical decision to be able to make in zoo-style aggro, and the option is lost on the Maniac.
That being said, a critical mass of passable aggro 1-drops are required for the archetype to be successful. Small to medium size cubes can do it without adding in Tattermunge quality creatures. Larger cubes cannot. I think he's a necessary evil for cubes in the 630-720 range, but I wouldn't play him in anything smaller.
I think these are all much better than the Tatt Maniac. I'm all for turning 2/1 one drops sideways, but this guy (as stated above) has the worst drawback.
He's alright, certainly not better than Stormkirk, Vexing Devil, or Reckless Waif, but as everyone stated, being forced to attack isn't a good thing. I have tried many times to fit him in my cube and they're just better cards in the R/G section and better red one drops to put him in the red section so he's on the outside looking in (I don't support Green Aggro really either so). If he was a 3/1, then maybe he'd get somewhere, but as a 2/1 that is forced to attack every turn, not very good.
Vexing Devil is not nearly as good as TM, I think. Obviously, there is a list of one-drops that are better,
I've been running him for quite a while, and he has never been in danger of removal in my 540. I like having 2-power one drops, and his drawback isn't often that big a deal.
I've seen it be better in large cubes too. I can't really put my finger on why - maybe the density of two drops that can block it and still live is smaller? Maybe everything else is just weaker? It's probably just that my sample size is too small.
It's certainly better than Vexing Devil, that card is straight-up terrible.
I think Tattermunge is absolutely terrible. I wish so much that he just couldn't block instead of having to attack each turn. Being forced to run head first into my opponent's 2/X first striker or 3/3 is just awful. I cut him after only being in my cube for a few drafts and have not missed him since. He doesn't even make that cut in my C/U cube.
I run Tattermunge Maniac as a red card and I am quite happy with it. Typically you want to attack with your creatures anyway and use burn to clear the way if they play a blocker. If they block with an X/3 you can still get a 2 for 2 with an Arc Trail or Forked Bolt, and some decks will kill your first wave of creatures with a Wrath anyway before actually casting a creature of their own. Sometimes they have to block another creature first.
The suicide into something does not come up as often as one would think.
What about Stonewright? That card is an absolute power house in AVR drafts, and seems like it can keep aggro from over committing to the board early on, while also making the late game better when combined with 1 mana durdles.
What about Stonewright? That card is an absolute power house in AVR drafts, and seems like it can keep aggro from over committing to the board early on, while also making the late game better when combined with 1 mana durdles.
Has anyone tested it?
Some have and there is a vivid discussion in the other thread. It actually made me want to include that card.
The only card there I could see being iffy is Hull Breach and I'd be inclined to replace it with something like Vithian Renegades. Hell, even Rip-Clan Crasher or Scab-Clan Mauler would be better than Tattermunge, IMO.
The suicide into something does not come up as often as one would think.
It came up often enough here in just a few drafts for me to decide the card is basically terrible. If he had haste, I think he'd be worth it. As is, he's decent on turn one when you're on the play and his value drops significantly after that.
I would think Tattermunge would be even worse in a c/u environment. aggro needs to run cards that help it get through in the midrange matchup and either get through or play midrange in the mirror. it doesn't need cards that are blank on a contested board-state.
I like it more than Vexing Devil, but not more than the others.
When is vexing devil worse than this guy (discounting the G)?
Turn one against a deck with speed issues perhaps, but my initial response would be to think that I'd much rather my opponent play this guy than flame javelin my face for R at nearly any point in the game. When my opponent chooses to let me have a 4/3, a 4/3 is better than a 2/1. It's almost a win/win by comparison.
Almost.
I almost always played Firespout for R without G, so It ended up in my red pile but outclassed by breath of darigaaz, sulfurous blast, slice and dice and pyroclasm (those do a good job at being distinct from one another as well).
Vexing Devil is not a creature. It's a 4-damage Lava Spike with a terrible drawback. A really terrible drawback.
When is the 2/1 that has to attack each turn if able better than 4 damage to the face? I'm not being argumentative, I'm legitimately trying to understand.
I am under the impression that both modes are better than the other guy's one, subpar mode, 60-80% of the time.
When is the 2/1 that has to attack each turn if able better than 4 damage to the face? I'm not being argumentative, I'm legitimately trying to understand.
It can block the first turn, it can be equipped (or boosted other ways), sacrificed to Smokestack, Recurring Nightmare or Skullclamp and it can potentially do more then 4 damage.
When is the 2/1 that has to attack each turn if able better than 4 damage to the face? I'm not being argumentative, I'm legitimately trying to understand.
I am under the impression that both modes are better than the other guy's one, subpar mode, 60-80% of the time.
Having a creature out is more than just the average damage you can expect from it. It makes all your other creatures better. It forces your opponent to respond to the presence. It makes your future attacks more efficient. It can force trades with your opponent so you actually impact the board with them. It benefits from equipment, anthems and other creature pumps. When backed up by removal, you can potentially get more than 4 damage from it.
Ask yourself this: When was the last time you aimed a Lightning Bolt at your opponent's face on T1? Would you ever make the decision to do that over casting a 2-power 1-drop? Hopefully the answers are no, and that's because establishing board presence is important. Zoo style aggro decks (which most cube aggro imitates that shell) wants board presence early, backed up by removal and versatile burn that can do more than just hit players. Because board presence is critical to how those decks play, a T1 creature gives something to the deck that you can't get from the Devil.
During deck construction, particularly in aggro, cards are dedicated to certain slots as needed. You need X creatures to develop your board. You need X burn spells that can hit both creatures and players so you have reach and removal. There aren't slots available that you don't care what the card does. And that's the situation you need for Vexing Devil to be good. If you need a card to function in a certain role, Devil's not your card, because it will never be what you need.
EDIT this was aimed at the post 2 posts up
Ah, see, I come from the land of peasant, and the last three are not in my environment (clamp for power reasons).
The first reason, however, shouldn't come up unless you are super losing. If you're losing in a deck that would run maniac, I would at least hope the opponent is in burn range and in which case the devil is significantly better once again.
Ask yourself this: When was the last time you aimed a Lightning Bolt at your opponent's face on T1? Would you ever make the decision to do that over casting a 2-power 1-drop? Hopefully the answers are no, and that's because establishing board presence is important. Zoo style aggro decks (which most cube aggro imitates that shell) wants board presence early, backed up by removal and versatile burn that can do more than just hit players. Because board presence is critical to how those decks play, a T1 creature gives something to the deck that you can't get from the Devil.
What does everyone think of the Maniac? In most Cubes he's not good enough to break the R/G barrier of entry. There are two questions I've been asking myself...
1)Would I run him if he just cost R?
2)Would I run him if he just cost G?
Both answers are "yes" to me because he helps both colors get to the critical mass of 1-drops (and I support green aggro). I've been cheating a little bit lately in how I classify a few cards (ex: Lingering Souls in white). I'm thinking I might make an exception for this guy. How relevant will the "attacks each turn if able" clause truly be? I don't think in a true aggro deck it will matter too often.
Here are the red 1-drops I would rank it behind (in no particular order):
Goblin Guide
Greater Gargadon
Grim Lavamancer
Jackal Pup
Spikeshot Elder
Here are the red 1-drops I would rank it ahead of (in no particular order):
Goblin Patrol
Reckless Waif
Stromkirk Noble
Vexing Devil
My green section has two different purposes (ramp & aggro) so he's behind most creatures in that color. Still, I would run him in either color if he was reprinted today as either just a red or green creature. Am I alone in my line of thinking?
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
Both answers are "no" to me. Having to attack is a terrible, terrible drawback. Being unable to block is bad enough, but having to attack is just 10x worse. There's too much combat in the cube. Sometimes (every time?) not attacking into their untapped 3-drop is really important. Hold off until you can clear a path and then go back to attacking. This is a critical decision to be able to make in zoo-style aggro, and the option is lost on the Maniac.
That being said, a critical mass of passable aggro 1-drops are required for the archetype to be successful. Small to medium size cubes can do it without adding in Tattermunge quality creatures. Larger cubes cannot. I think he's a necessary evil for cubes in the 630-720 range, but I wouldn't play him in anything smaller.
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Reckless Waif
Stromkirk Noble
Vexing Devil
I think these are all much better than the Tatt Maniac. I'm all for turning 2/1 one drops sideways, but this guy (as stated above) has the worst drawback.
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I've been running him for quite a while, and he has never been in danger of removal in my 540. I like having 2-power one drops, and his drawback isn't often that big a deal.
-AA
P.S. If it was a 3/1, it would be absurd.
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It's certainly better than Vexing Devil, that card is straight-up terrible.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
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-AA
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The suicide into something does not come up as often as one would think.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Has anyone tested it?
Some have and there is a vivid discussion in the other thread. It actually made me want to include that card.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I run the guild system in my peasant cube. At 380 cards I have 7 cards per guild. My Gruul section currently looks like this:
The only card there I could see being iffy is Hull Breach and I'd be inclined to replace it with something like Vithian Renegades. Hell, even Rip-Clan Crasher or Scab-Clan Mauler would be better than Tattermunge, IMO.
It came up often enough here in just a few drafts for me to decide the card is basically terrible. If he had haste, I think he'd be worth it. As is, he's decent on turn one when you're on the play and his value drops significantly after that.
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When is vexing devil worse than this guy (discounting the G)?
Turn one against a deck with speed issues perhaps, but my initial response would be to think that I'd much rather my opponent play this guy than flame javelin my face for R at nearly any point in the game. When my opponent chooses to let me have a 4/3, a 4/3 is better than a 2/1. It's almost a win/win by comparison.
Almost.
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Every time you want a creature?
Vexing Devil is not a creature. It's a 4-damage Lava Spike with a terrible drawback. A really terrible drawback.
Pretty much this.
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As for better candidates
tattermunge witch, kird ape, hull breach, skarrg, the rage pits... maybe even colossal might or gruul guildmage or Fires of yavimaya, but this is a bit of a stretch now. You wouldn't catch me playing vengeful rebirth unless I happened to cycle jungle weaver.
Actually... hmm...
I almost always played Firespout for R without G, so It ended up in my red pile but outclassed by breath of darigaaz, sulfurous blast, slice and dice and pyroclasm (those do a good job at being distinct from one another as well).
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430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
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The only decks it is worth it are the ones full with burn or consist mainly of one and two drops.
If I should put a size on it I would say 650-800 range?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
When is the 2/1 that has to attack each turn if able better than 4 damage to the face? I'm not being argumentative, I'm legitimately trying to understand.
I am under the impression that both modes are better than the other guy's one, subpar mode, 60-80% of the time.
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430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
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It can block the first turn, it can be equipped (or boosted other ways), sacrificed to Smokestack, Recurring Nightmare or Skullclamp and it can potentially do more then 4 damage.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Having a creature out is more than just the average damage you can expect from it. It makes all your other creatures better. It forces your opponent to respond to the presence. It makes your future attacks more efficient. It can force trades with your opponent so you actually impact the board with them. It benefits from equipment, anthems and other creature pumps. When backed up by removal, you can potentially get more than 4 damage from it.
Ask yourself this: When was the last time you aimed a Lightning Bolt at your opponent's face on T1? Would you ever make the decision to do that over casting a 2-power 1-drop? Hopefully the answers are no, and that's because establishing board presence is important. Zoo style aggro decks (which most cube aggro imitates that shell) wants board presence early, backed up by removal and versatile burn that can do more than just hit players. Because board presence is critical to how those decks play, a T1 creature gives something to the deck that you can't get from the Devil.
During deck construction, particularly in aggro, cards are dedicated to certain slots as needed. You need X creatures to develop your board. You need X burn spells that can hit both creatures and players so you have reach and removal. There aren't slots available that you don't care what the card does. And that's the situation you need for Vexing Devil to be good. If you need a card to function in a certain role, Devil's not your card, because it will never be what you need.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Ah, see, I come from the land of peasant, and the last three are not in my environment (clamp for power reasons).
The first reason, however, shouldn't come up unless you are super losing. If you're losing in a deck that would run maniac, I would at least hope the opponent is in burn range and in which case the devil is significantly better once again.
This makes sense
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430, Peasant, Very Unpowered
Why you should take your hybrids out of your gold section
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