There's a lot of love for Avalanche Riders, and rightly so, for the reasons discussed in the linked thread.
There's also a few cube staples that have land destruction capability, such as Wasteland, Vindicate, and Molten Rain.
Land destruction has an important place in Magic. Are there enough quality cards to push a full-on theme in cube, perhaps in larger cubes? If so, should there be a color identity, or is spreading out amongst red, green, and black OK? (white if you want to count land sweepers). There has been some discussion that green ramp is an especially potent combo, found here.
From the looks of it, red/green seems to the most viable, which could play as a tempo styled deck with some ramp if need be. Black has fewer options, but could play well with white's sweepers I suppose.
Did you know if you cascade into boom/bust off of a bloodbraid elf you can cast the Bust half of it?
I think Red-Green is the way to go, because while black might have Sinkhole and a couple more LD spells at 3 CMC, it's really nice to have Acidic Slime, and more importantly to have mana dorks which allow you to cast your 3CMC LD spells on turn 2 instead of 3. They also make the Boom half of Boom/Bust better.
Black's LD mirrors the land LD (wasteland and such): it's mainly for getting rid of pesky lands.
For the base cubes, the auto-includes for red get rid of the pesky lands, as well as being the deal-sealer for aggro: turn 4, you knock out their 3rd/4th land and swing with everyone. There goes their turn 4/5 answer.
For larger cubes, I've found that it's very easy to push a gruul LD theme (like the OP states) in at least a 540 cube.
Here are the ones I run:
Red:
Keldon Firebombers are actually pretty good in an aggro deck as they keep big dudes from coming down. They're also pretty cool in that Red artifact-wildfire deck.
Minus Ogre Arsonist (thanks for the add), I didn't add these cards because either
- they're bad toolbox cards. Creeping Mold and Aftershock do more (if we're going to say LD is worth 3 mana, one more mana for the utility is quite economical)
- they require you losing a land, which doesn't serve the purposes of a tempo LD strategy
In the case of Goblin Settler, Ravenous Baboons is a straight upgrade.
In the case of Goblin Settler, Ravenous Baboons is a straight upgrade.
Far from it. Goblin Settler destroys any land, while Ravenous Baboons only destroys nonbasic lands. Most cube decks run a bunch of nonbasics, but they don't always drop one in the first few turns and I have a few friends who always pick them very low and use as few as possible.* Also, if you have multiple LD effects and draw your Baboons right after you destroyed your opponent's only nonbasic land, that is bad, too. All in all, being a 2/2 is more relevant than a measly 1/1, but it certainly isn't a "straight upgrade". The main strike against the Goblin is that she costs way too much money. I wish they would just reprint her.
* I once thought one of them simply forgot to put his Overgrown Tomb into his BG deck, but he said that he didn't want to use it, because his "mana was already good" and he hates both etb tapped lands and life loss.
- they're bad toolbox cards. Creeping Mold and Aftershock do more (if we're going to say LD is worth 3 mana, one more mana for the utility is quite economical)
If we're saying that LD is worth 3 mana and utility LD is worth the extra mana, what does that say about cards like Ogre Arsonist that cost 5? How does this take into account the colored mana in a spell's cost? (see Stone Rain vs Rain of Tears vs Winter's Grasp). If we're going with the LD plan, those destruction spells need to be cast on curve, and double mana symbols greatly decrease that probability.
- they require you losing a land, which doesn't serve the purposes of a tempo LD strategy
If this were true, then Strip Mine, Wasteland, Rishadan Port and all their variants wouldn't see play either. The suggestions I put forth require you to lose a land and a card. But even if Strip Mine required you to discard a card to activate, it would probably still see play. That's because it doesn't take up a spell slot, which is an incredibly valuable resource to manage in a deck.
And if we're using the Loam/Crucible argument, then Raze and Boom//Bust are just as playable if not more than Scorched Earth, since they are castable earlier, thus helping the tempo plan.
I've had a lot of success in my C/Ube with 'incidental land destruction'. What I mean by this is cards that can destroy lands, but have other applications as well, so their opportunity cost in draft is very low. It's easy to pick up Pillage, Acidic Slime or Goblin Ruinblaster because they do other things as well. The only true LD I run is Stone Rain and Molten Rain.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
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**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
Far from it. Goblin Settler destroys any land, while Ravenous Baboons only destroys nonbasic lands. Most cube decks run a bunch of nonbasics, but they don't always drop one in the first few turns and I have a few friends who always pick them very low and use as few as possible.* Also, if you have multiple LD effects and draw your Baboons right after you destroyed your opponent's only nonbasic land, that is bad, too. All in all, being a 2/2 is more relevant than a measly 1/1, but it certainly isn't a "straight upgrade". The main strike against the Goblin is that she costs way too much money. I wish they would just reprint her.
I could hug you. This is a great point. I am one of the select few who is currently running Goblin Settler and I couldn't be happier with it. With a larger cube you still need the critical mass of LD spells and I found that compared to some of the other fringe playable LD spells, this is the most consistent effect. While obviously MUCH worse than Avalanche Riders I would actually put it on par with Ravenous Baboons. So many times I had to hold onto that Baboons waiting for a juicy target (Or even worse, so I wouldn't be forced to blow up my own non-basic). Settler is never dead. Sure you only get a 1/1 for 4, but this creature can be used as a chump blocker, can suit up with some equipment, or you can live the dream and start blinking it with Venser, the Sojourner or Restoration Angel (Which I have done, and it sure feels sweet). Its too bad that the card has a $60 price tag. I was lucky enough to have one remaining from my pile of cards from my youth, back when I used to crack Starter 1999 packs (Sadly I could never find my old Dakmor Sorceress). If you get the chance to pick this card up on the cheap, I eagerly recommend it for larger cubes (>540) especially if you support land death highly.
I think they're pretty comparable in power-level, but I prefer the Baboons. On T4 or later, I usually have a nonbasic target for it, and the 2/2 body is just so much better than the 1/1 body. But in the rare occasion where the Baboons is rotting in your hand for lacking a target, Settler is the better effect for sure.
what do people think of orcish settlers? think it would be too good if errata'd so you don't sac it?
If you mean errata changing his abiltiy to 2R tap, destroy target land, then yes, that's too good. Land Destruction shouldn't be repeatable at that cheap of a price.
i agree w/ Fidelis, i also use Goblin Settlers & the card has played great. W/ LD, you want to bust their lands as early as possible & not be handcuffed by the non-basic constraint. + it does have a semi-relevant creature type
I understand that. It was printed as a continuous artifact, which by rule required it to be untapped to have an effect. Now that the card type has been removed, and there's no printing of it that says "when untapped..." I can see why they changed it, but I don't agree with it.
I understand that. It was printed as a continuous artifact, which by rule required it to be untapped to have an effect. Now that the card type has been removed, and there's no printing of it that says "when untapped..." I can see why they changed it, but I don't agree with it.
I'm really hoping they print it in FTV:20 with the correct ruling on it and update Oracle.
I think I may start running it as intended. Its a much better card that way, and that was how the designers meant for it to be played. I already run an errata on Chaos Orb, I might as well do it for Winter Orb.
I understand that. It was printed as a continuous artifact, which by rule required it to be untapped to have an effect. Now that the card type has been removed, and there's no printing of it that says "when untapped..." I can see why they changed it, but I don't agree with it.
Take a look at the oracle text on winter orb, they removed the "if untapped" clause from it. The only card that still needs to be untapped to work is howling mine.
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Yep. And I think they should've left it on there. Considering that's how the card was supposed to work when it was printed. They just never printed a version with that wording on it, and discontinued the "continuous artifact" card type. Therefore, the Oracle no longer supports the card as it was printed.
It's not the first time that the card doesn't function as they intend it to. Mogg Fanatic and Morphling also get their function change entirely due to the combat rule change, no longer work the way they intend it to. I view it as a similar issue. Anyways, Wizards choose to change the way the card works, so I'll be playing it as Wizards want it to currently work. I think it's a slippery slope.
There's also a few cube staples that have land destruction capability, such as Wasteland, Vindicate, and Molten Rain.
Land destruction has an important place in Magic. Are there enough quality cards to push a full-on theme in cube, perhaps in larger cubes? If so, should there be a color identity, or is spreading out amongst red, green, and black OK? (white if you want to count land sweepers). There has been some discussion that green ramp is an especially potent combo, found here.
Possibilities:
Red
Pillage
Molten Rain
Stone Rain
Avalanche Riders
Goblin Ruinblaster
Dwarven Blastminer
Dwarven Miner
Ravenous Baboons
Ravaging Horde
Ogre Arsonist
Wildfire
Burning of Xinye
Aftershock
Scorched Earth
Green
Acidic Slime
Mold Shambler
Terastodon
Woodfall Primus
Ice Storm
Thermokarst
Winter's Grasp
Creeping Mold
Bramblecrush
Beast Within
Mwonvoli Acid-Moss
Plow Under
Black
Sinkhole
Choking Sands
Icequake
Rancid Earth
Rain of Tears
Helldozer
White
Balance
Armageddon
Ravages of War
Catastrophe
Cataclysm
Colorless
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Tectonic Edge
Dust Bowl
Sundering Titan
Multicolor
Fulminator Mage
Vindicate
Desolation Angel
Angel of Despair
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
From the looks of it, red/green seems to the most viable, which could play as a tempo styled deck with some ramp if need be. Black has fewer options, but could play well with white's sweepers I suppose.
I think Red-Green is the way to go, because while black might have Sinkhole and a couple more LD spells at 3 CMC, it's really nice to have Acidic Slime, and more importantly to have mana dorks which allow you to cast your 3CMC LD spells on turn 2 instead of 3. They also make the Boom half of Boom/Bust better.
For the base cubes, the auto-includes for red get rid of the pesky lands, as well as being the deal-sealer for aggro: turn 4, you knock out their 3rd/4th land and swing with everyone. There goes their turn 4/5 answer.
For larger cubes, I've found that it's very easy to push a gruul LD theme (like the OP states) in at least a 540 cube.
Here are the ones I run:
Red:
Green:
It works fine in 540+ because you have the wiggle room to include enough for a theme without sacrificing any of the must-includes.
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Minus Ogre Arsonist (thanks for the add), I didn't add these cards because either
- they're bad toolbox cards. Creeping Mold and Aftershock do more (if we're going to say LD is worth 3 mana, one more mana for the utility is quite economical)
- they require you losing a land, which doesn't serve the purposes of a tempo LD strategy
In the case of Goblin Settler, Ravenous Baboons is a straight upgrade.
I threw in Scorched Earth because it combos quite well with Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds. A 2 mana Stone Rain (or 3 mana Rain of Salt) is quite good.
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Far from it. Goblin Settler destroys any land, while Ravenous Baboons only destroys nonbasic lands. Most cube decks run a bunch of nonbasics, but they don't always drop one in the first few turns and I have a few friends who always pick them very low and use as few as possible.* Also, if you have multiple LD effects and draw your Baboons right after you destroyed your opponent's only nonbasic land, that is bad, too. All in all, being a 2/2 is more relevant than a measly 1/1, but it certainly isn't a "straight upgrade". The main strike against the Goblin is that she costs way too much money. I wish they would just reprint her.
* I once thought one of them simply forgot to put his Overgrown Tomb into his BG deck, but he said that he didn't want to use it, because his "mana was already good" and he hates both etb tapped lands and life loss.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
If we're saying that LD is worth 3 mana and utility LD is worth the extra mana, what does that say about cards like Ogre Arsonist that cost 5? How does this take into account the colored mana in a spell's cost? (see Stone Rain vs Rain of Tears vs Winter's Grasp). If we're going with the LD plan, those destruction spells need to be cast on curve, and double mana symbols greatly decrease that probability.
If this were true, then Strip Mine, Wasteland, Rishadan Port and all their variants wouldn't see play either. The suggestions I put forth require you to lose a land and a card. But even if Strip Mine required you to discard a card to activate, it would probably still see play. That's because it doesn't take up a spell slot, which is an incredibly valuable resource to manage in a deck.
And if we're using the Loam/Crucible argument, then Raze and Boom//Bust are just as playable if not more than Scorched Earth, since they are castable earlier, thus helping the tempo plan.
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Specialities about the cube:
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Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
I could hug you. This is a great point. I am one of the select few who is currently running Goblin Settler and I couldn't be happier with it. With a larger cube you still need the critical mass of LD spells and I found that compared to some of the other fringe playable LD spells, this is the most consistent effect. While obviously MUCH worse than Avalanche Riders I would actually put it on par with Ravenous Baboons. So many times I had to hold onto that Baboons waiting for a juicy target (Or even worse, so I wouldn't be forced to blow up my own non-basic). Settler is never dead. Sure you only get a 1/1 for 4, but this creature can be used as a chump blocker, can suit up with some equipment, or you can live the dream and start blinking it with Venser, the Sojourner or Restoration Angel (Which I have done, and it sure feels sweet). Its too bad that the card has a $60 price tag. I was lucky enough to have one remaining from my pile of cards from my youth, back when I used to crack Starter 1999 packs (Sadly I could never find my old Dakmor Sorceress). If you get the chance to pick this card up on the cheap, I eagerly recommend it for larger cubes (>540) especially if you support land death highly.
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If you mean errata changing his abiltiy to 2R tap, destroy target land, then yes, that's too good. Land Destruction shouldn't be repeatable at that cheap of a price.
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I'm really hoping they print it in FTV:20 with the correct ruling on it and update Oracle.
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Take a look at the oracle text on winter orb, they removed the "if untapped" clause from it. The only card that still needs to be untapped to work is howling mine.
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