The game is a draw regardless of the rest of the board state right?
What? No. Why would you think this to be the case?
You get a 6/6 artifact Caged Sun and all forests you control would be 2/2 Basic Land Creature - Forest Saporling.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
No, that wouldn't cause a draw either. It would EITHER be a 7/7 Basic Land Artifact Creature - Forest Saporling or a 2/2 Basic Land Artifact Creature - Forest Saporling depending on which card came onto the battlefield SECOND, March of the Machines or Life and Limb.
They are both power and toughness setting effects so you just apply the more recent timestamp. IE, whichever card came onto the battlefield LAST that sets its power and toughness.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
So it's now a 2/2 or 7/7 (depending on whether Life and Limb or March of the Machines entered the battlefield second, and thus had the later timestamp) Forest-Saproling. How does this make it a draw?
If you tell us your reasoning for thinking it's a draw, we might be able to figure out why it's correct/incorrect.
I tap Caged Sun for green and it triggers itself over and over and (I think???) it's a mana ability so it's impossible for anyone to even try and break the loop.
I tap Caged Sun for green and it triggers itself over and over and (I think???) it's a mana ability so it's impossible for anyone to even try and break the loop.
You're correct on this. The triggered ability on Caged Sun is a land's ability that adds mana of the chosen color to your mana pool, which will trigger itself over and over creating a non-interruptable loop, causing the game to end in a draw immediately.
You're correct on this. The triggered ability on Caged Sun is a land's ability that adds mana of the chosen color to your mana pool, which will trigger itself over and over creating a non-interruptable loop, causing the game to end in a draw immediately.
No, he's right. There is a loop. Adding mana is an ability from a land since caged sun is now a land.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
I'm not sure where your confusion is coming from; I'm agreeing with you that this creates an infinite loop.
Because you ninja edited it. When we both quoted you, you had the incorrect answer.
Yours was just "it will add one extra mana."
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
It is an involuntary loop, but it can be broken. Triggered abilities can only be mana abilities of they're triggered by the activation of a mana ability. So if you tap the caged sun for mana, it will add gg to your mana pool, then a trigger of "add g to your mana pool" will go on the stack, and each resolution will throw another one on. Once you generate a lot of mana, you could then use an instant in response to the next trigger and potentially win the game or break the loop. Neither player has to break the loop though, so if you just want to draw a game you can't win, thats certainly an option.
It is an involuntary loop, but it can be broken. Triggered abilities can only be mana abilities of they're triggered by the activation of a mana ability. So if you tap the caged sun for mana, it will add gg to your mana pool, then a trigger of "add g to your mana pool" will go on the stack, and each resolution will throw another one on. Once you generate a lot of mana, you could then use an instant in response to the next trigger and potentially win the game or break the loop. Neither player has to break the loop though, so if you just want to draw a game you can't win, thats certainly an option.
I agree with Xelo - only the first 'trigger' is a mana ability. That ruling is regarding the mana ability in general, and surely isn't referencing this convuluted situation (it usually is a simple mana ability).
605.1b A triggered ability without a target that triggers from activating a mana ability and could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves is a mana ability.
Because the triggered ability is triggering off of a triggered ability, it falls outside of this definition and isn't actually a triggered ability.
Jax - From the definition of a triggered mana ability stated in rule "605.1b", I would also have to agree with your conclusion. They specifically call out that a triggered ability is only a mana ability if triggered from "activating" the mana ability, and then clearly states in rule "605.5" that this is the only case.
I am still going to do a little research here, as I would like to find out if the intent for the ruling, and the terminology, was stated correctly in the comprehensive rules. But as it's stated, I would agree with you.
I think we've hit one of those strange, one-and-a-million corner cases in Magic that the rules aren't prepared to handle. For the life of me I can't think of another situation that could be handled the same way. I can't think of a mana ability that triggers off of triggered mana abilities, rather than activated ones... Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Hand of god (official ruling) says it's a mana ability, so it is. That's my conclusion. Either way, the loop IS infinite, and will end the game in a draw; the only question here is whether or not it is interruptable. I'm still saying no since wizards is maintaining that this is a mana ability.
Hand of god (official ruling) says it's a mana ability, so it is. That's my conclusion. Either way, the loop IS infinite, and will end the game in a draw; the only question here is whether or not it is interruptable. I'm still saying no since wizards is maintaining that this is a mana ability.
Well, mana abilities can't be responded to, as you and several people have said. They don't allow for spells and abilities to go on the stack before resolving, and thus can't be interrupted.
So no, it is not interruptable.
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The game is a draw regardless of the rest of the board state right?
What? No. Why would you think this to be the case?
You get a 6/6 artifact Caged Sun and all forests you control would be 2/2 Basic Land Creature - Forest Saporling.
They are both power and toughness setting effects so you just apply the more recent timestamp. IE, whichever card came onto the battlefield LAST that sets its power and toughness.
If you tell us your reasoning for thinking it's a draw, we might be able to figure out why it's correct/incorrect.
You're correct on this. The triggered ability on Caged Sun is a land's ability that adds mana of the chosen color to your mana pool, which will trigger itself over and over creating a non-interruptable loop, causing the game to end in a draw immediately.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
No, he's right. There is a loop. Adding mana is an ability from a land since caged sun is now a land.
I'm not sure where your confusion is coming from; I'm agreeing with you that this creates an infinite loop.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
Because you ninja edited it. When we both quoted you, you had the incorrect answer.
Yours was just "it will add one extra mana."
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214345
6/1/2011 Caged Sun's triggered ability is a mana ability, which means the ability doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to.
605.1b A triggered ability without a target that triggers from activating a mana ability and could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves is a mana ability.
Because the triggered ability is triggering off of a triggered ability, it falls outside of this definition and isn't actually a triggered ability.
THANK YOU I thought I was crazy!!!
I am still going to do a little research here, as I would like to find out if the intent for the ruling, and the terminology, was stated correctly in the comprehensive rules. But as it's stated, I would agree with you.
I think we've hit one of those strange, one-and-a-million corner cases in Magic that the rules aren't prepared to handle. For the life of me I can't think of another situation that could be handled the same way. I can't think of a mana ability that triggers off of triggered mana abilities, rather than activated ones... Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Hand of god (official ruling) says it's a mana ability, so it is. That's my conclusion. Either way, the loop IS infinite, and will end the game in a draw; the only question here is whether or not it is interruptable. I'm still saying no since wizards is maintaining that this is a mana ability.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
Well, mana abilities can't be responded to, as you and several people have said. They don't allow for spells and abilities to go on the stack before resolving, and thus can't be interrupted.
So no, it is not interruptable.