Hello everyone. This deck is built around a combo that was discussed in the article "Old, New, and New New" yesterday. The goal of this deck is to use Deadeye Navigator, Deceiver Exarch/Zealous Conscripts, and Gilded Lotus to produce infinite mana. From there, the other cards in the deck are designed to either help you reach this combo, or win the game once you've attained this combo. In addition, Zealous Conscripts is a quasi-win condition, since you can permanently steal all of your opponent's non-hexproof creatures and continuously steal their lands at the beginning of each upkeep.
While this deck can get the job done, I feel there are some more effective ways of attacking this deck. For instance, there needs to be Ponder in this deck. So, I made a couple of adjustments to the deck; in addition, I decided to add green to the deck to help give it more resiliency.
I'll explain a couple of the cards I added really quickly:
Elvish Visionary- one of the advantages with going green is getting a two mana dude that draws cards when it EtB, therefore allowing it to easily fit on the curve. Because of this, it helps you reach your combo and once you've established the infinite mana, you can use this to find a way to end the game.
Huntmaster of the Fells- this deck will probably take a bunch of hits early. Having the card draw and blockers off of Huntmaster will be really key. In addition it can serve as a wincon by generating infinite wolves with the inifinite mana.
Amass the Components- being a combo deck, I think that drawing more cards is the best thing we can do. For this deck, this is essentially a concentrate, since whatever card we pitch is one we don't need for the combo.
Bonfire of the Damned- personally, I think this is a much better choice over Brimstone Volley. It kills multiple creatures, it is better for helping us hold out against aggro decks, and after generating infinite mana, hitting someone for 500 billion off of Bonfire will usually end the game :p.
Alright, so let's see what we cand do with this.
Edit: Two things. First, there is also the possibilty of building this with a birthing pod setup. I'm not a huge fan, but just putting it out there. The other thing is the sideboard. Here is what I'm thinking for a sideboard:
Augur of Bolas - If you are playing a version with more dig/cantrips, this allows you to get to them and also soulbond to deadeye on your last iteration to find the spell to kill your opponent.
Archaeomancer Similar if you are using a version with more dig spells however, elvish visionary does this job better. If you play this lots of things become win conditions and opens the possibility of lots of loops if you get the combo. (burn, d-tide shenanigans, thought scour loop, anything you want). Just be sure to announce the mana you are making (8000000000000000 blue first then whatever other colors you want).
Thragtusk has to be in this deck if you are RUG, although I guess huntmaster is very similar.
I've been testing this some as well and it seems very well positioned just in terms of artifact destruction and black removal being the only real way to interact with the combo. Remember too that you don't really need anything to kill them once you've got the combo in place since you can lock them out on upkeep each turn/steal all their permenants for the turn. I'll post my list later when I'm not at work, but it definitely is very fun, very big and at least tier 2 (insomuch as URx control is fringe)!
Honestly I rather just get infinite mana and use either blue sun's zenith or increasing confusion.
The problem with that strategy is that increasing confusion is only useful with infinite mana and blue sun's zenith is marginally useful without infinite mana. With the cards here, there is still the inevitability of simply winning with infinite mana, but the cards are much more useful without infinite. Huntmaster + Deadeye Navigator is still annoying to deal with and Bonfire is still extremely useful.
Quote from deego »
Things to consider:
Augur of Bolas - If you are playing a version with more dig/cantrips, this allows you to get to them and also soulbond to deadeye on your last iteration to find the spell to kill your opponent.
Archaeomancer Similar if you are using a version with more dig spells however, Elvish Visionary does this job better.
I've been testing this some as well and it seems very well positioned just in terms of artifact destruction and black removal being the only real way to interact with the combo. Remember too that you don't really need anything to kill them once you've got the combo in place since you can lock them out on upkeep each turn/steal all their permenants for the turn. I'll post my list later when I'm not at work, but it definitely is very fun, very big and at least tier 2 (insomuch as URx control is fringe)!
I'll give you Archaeomancer. In the U/R version, he is quite good, especially if you have any burn spell like incinerate or gut shot in your deck. He isn't too out of place on the curve, so I would say he is a reasonable option. I personally prefer the cheapness of Elvish Visionary, and I think the deck needs the survivability that Huntmaster provides. But I do think he is a good option for the deck.
Augur of Bolas doesn't fit too well into the deck imo. The instant and sorceries in the deck aren't really that important, and there are not enough to consistently draw them off of him. In addition, he can't be used to draw into win conditions (except for Bonfire and there are better ways of doing that). Not saying he's a bad card, just not right for the deck.
Glad to hear about your testing. I'll be quite interested in seeing your list when you get it up.
I like archaeomancer, ghostly flicker, and talrand, sky summoner. Sure you are adding 3 cards, but I think they play well with the deck. You flicker exarch and the archaeomancer with sky summoner and lotus out for an army of drakes. I wanted to build a sky summoned deck and when I saw the old new, and new new article I knew where to add him.
Glad to hear about your testing. I'll be quite interested in seeing your list when you get it up.
Yeah, more or less every time a new set comes out, I become interested in making a UR combo deck. I'll get the list up as soon as I can.
I do agree with you on augur somewhat. Visionary is much better in this deck. I do think thragtusk should be in here possibly over huntmaster. One other card that may be interesting is Solemn Simulacrum as it would likely help the deck with its mana hunger. Depending on how much Delver takes a hit with 2013 or if a blue based control deck (other then this) gets a big chunk of the meta, cavern of souls definitely works here too.
These builds don't have enough protection for the combo. You don't need any explicit wincons as you can just steal/tap down the board each upkeep and swing with navigator. As a result I'd up the number of counters to protect the combo.
Playing all these other cards that synergize with navigator seems silly, as if the opponent is going to be able to remove a combo piece they should always try to get the navigator. Plus you have 8 copies of the other creatures required to go infinite. The only other creatures I'd run is some copies of snapcaster mage, and some copies of spellskite in tue board against black decks.
I've got a list, but not on me. I'll post it later.
These builds don't have enough protection for the combo. You don't need any explicit wincons as you can just steal/tap down the board each upkeep and swing with navigator. As a result I'd up the number of counters to protect the combo.
Playing all these other cards that synergize with navigator seems silly, as if the opponent is going to be able to remove a combo piece they should always try to get the navigator. Plus you have 8 copies of the other creatures required to go infinite. The only other creatures I'd run is some copies of snapcaster mage, and some copies of spellskite in tue board against black decks.
I've got a list, but not on me. I'll post it later.
For the most part, I agree with you. Having things that only are good once you've reached the combo are bad, and the primary goal of the deck should be to protect the combo. All I would say is that I think it is still necessary to have cards like Huntmaster and Bonfire simply because this combo isn't particularly fast (I think the absolute earliest it could combo off is turn 6 unless you use ramp). But, I'll look for places to put a couple of negates into my list.
Quote from deego »
I do agree with you on augur somewhat. Visionary is much better in this deck. I do think thragtusk should be in here possibly over huntmaster. One other card that may be interesting is Solemn Simulacrum as it would likely help the deck with its mana hunger. Depending on how much Delver takes a hit with 2013 or if a blue based control deck (other then this) gets a big chunk of the meta, cavern of souls definitely works here too.
The main reason I went with Huntmaster of the Fells over Thragtusk is that huntmaster fits better into the curve. Turn 5, we really want to be playing Guilded Lotus. Having to choose between staying alive or getting a combo piece onto the board is not something I want to do. Huntmaster also encourages your opponent to be less catious and reliant on counterspells, therefore presenting opportunities to get combo pieces onto the field.
Solemn Simulacrum is an interesting option, but I don't think he does what we need. He doesn't hit the field until turn 4, so he doesn't provide additional mana until turn 5. Turn 5 we already have 5 drops we want to play, so ramping to 6 mana isn't very relevant. All in all, good card, just not good here imo.
I really like the idea behind this deck. i've been wanting to abuse the Navigator ever since I got him in my sealed pool along with bounce dude and draw dude and wreched everyone.
That said...i don't think a pure combo deck that doesn't go critical until T6 (maybe T5 with ramp) at the earliest has a hope in hell in a format with the ridiculous aggro decks we have right now. I think you have to pair the U with either B or W and go heavy control or tempo to make this work.
The advantage of this approach is that control is always going to give you time to find your win-con. Once you do, it doesn't matter if it's Restoration Angel, deadeye combo or Hammer of Bogardan. plus you still have the possibility of the oops-I-win draw for that dirty combo feeling. Conversely, pure combo is a goldfish deck that really just hopes to live long enough to go critical.
So, without any testing or tuning and literally off the top of my head, I think i will throw something like the following together and test them -- one control and one pure combo.
Control
Can be two or three colours with the land we have now. It's good enough for Esper control decks so it should be just fine for this. I think you can just take the Sun Titan combo out of Flare and get something pretty solid.
These lands can also be the wincon or finisher (in order of best to worst). Remember that you don't have to force those colors since Lotus gives us any color. Kessig Wolf Run Stensia Bloodhall Nephalia Drownyard
why not add frost titan? with decievers as well as tamiyo the moon sage's, i think we could turn this into a control deck. at least thats what i wanna do... lol
maybe G/U/R ? i like it cuz it sounds like "grrr" lol
I also like the idea of turning it more control (Just bought 4 boosters and got my first three tamiy's from them...oh my, 3 tamiyo's out of 4 boosters how lucky :D)
I haven't worked on a list yet, but I am doing it right now
if we're going control, I'd prefer to go more into U/b and turn it into a mill, maybe with a splash of red for conscripts and maybe...just maybe....Bolas?
why not add frost titan? with decievers as well as tamiyo the moon sage's, i think we could turn this into a control deck. at least thats what i wanna do... lol
maybe G/U/R ? i like it cuz it sounds like "grrr" lol
The problem is the combo is HIGH CMC. The desperate need for interaction is at the lower CMC.
I also like the idea of turning it more control (Just bought 4 boosters and got my first three tamiy's from them...oh my, 3 tamiyo's out of 4 boosters how lucky :D)
Well considering it is impossible to have more than two in a box of 36 boosters given typical mythic print runs; I'd say you were very lucky.
2 deadeye navigators and 2 frost titans arent going to be that ridiculous of a mana curve, especially if you partner it up with green. we could still keep our interactions at the low mana costs with decievers, solemns, elvish visionary's, aether edept, maybe borderland rangers, the striders wouldn't be a problem, and tragtusk would be sweet as well.
im not saying i dont like the versions that are on here im just saying this one has any chance the others have.
Unfortunately, if you want to maximize the combo you want 4 navigators, and 4 Zealous Conscripts.
ya i suppose your right. having 4 navigators, 4 zealous, and 2 frosties would be pretty high.
Maybe for my deck i could just put this in as a capable side shenanigan, but asside my main focus of control. having a gur deck is different, which is one of the many reasons why i wanna build it... lol
ya i suppose your right. having 4 navigators, 4 zealous, and 2 frosties would be pretty high.
Maybe for my deck i could just put this in as a capable side shenanigan, but asside my main focus of control. having a gur deck is different, which is one of the many reasons why i wanna build it... lol
I agree that frostie is a great SB card in this case.
I still think Grixis or UR is better for control than RUG which lends itself better to midrange with an oops combo.
I would prefer to run an RUG list that focuses on accelerating the combo, instead of stalling until turn 5 or 6 and simply hoping you don't lose...so maybe this...
I would prefer to run an RUG list that focuses on accelerating the combo, instead of stalling until turn 5 or 6 and simply hoping you don't lose...so maybe this...
Wait, so you are saying that one shouldn't play control because you are simply "hoping you don't lose".
When you goldfish the ramp list it will probably seem more consistent than and will go off quicker than the control list. But in real matches, the control list will gain ground; the question is whether it overtakes the ramp list in consistency. This will largely depend on the metagame.
Wait, so you are saying that one shouldn't play control because you are simply "hoping you don't lose".
When you goldfish the ramp list it will probably seem more consistent than and will go off quicker than the control list. But in real matches, the control list will gain ground; the question is whether it overtakes the ramp list in consistency. This will largely depend on the metagame.
ya i agree, again lol when i play control im not hoping i dont lose, im sitting with my mana untapped while my opponent stresses on what answers i may or may not have for him my hand while he tries to play out his deck.
but none of that matters if the deck doesnt have consistency. we need playtesting... lol
Deceiver Exarch and Zealous Conscripts accomplish the same thing. Same goes for Stensia Bloodhall, Bonfire of the Damned, and Devil's Play. Added bonus to Devil's Play is that you can pitch it to Faithless Looting, then flash it back for the kill later on. May up it to 4, it seems really good. The rest is dig dig dig for pieces.
I'm working on a list right now, looks awesome. Love the idea.
I am thinking in Grixis that Nicol Bolas wouldn't be a bad secondary wincon. Turn 5 Gilded Lotus = 3 mana up for Deceiver Exarch, the 8 mana for turn 6 (Bolas, maybe even Griselbrand). Bolas or Griselbrand would likely be a 1 of secondary wincon. Bolas is the nuts, but Griselbrand is great too and can draw you into the combo if necessary.
So, here is the deck from the article:
4 Evolving Wilds
12 Island
3 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
24 lands
4 Deadeye Navigator
4 Deceiver Exarch
2 Gryff Vanguard
4 Pierce Strider
3 Zealous Conscripts
21 creatures
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Mana Leak
4 Think Twice
15 other spells
While this deck can get the job done, I feel there are some more effective ways of attacking this deck. For instance, there needs to be Ponder in this deck. So, I made a couple of adjustments to the deck; in addition, I decided to add green to the deck to help give it more resiliency.
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Deceiver Exarch
4x Huntmaster of the Fells
3x Zealous Conscripts
4x Deadeye Navigator
Artifacts (4)
4x Gilded Lotus
4x Ponder
4x Mana Leak
3x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Amass the Components
Lands (24)
1x Desolute Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Rootbound Crag
4x Evolving Wild
2x Mountain
3x Forest
4x Island
I'll explain a couple of the cards I added really quickly:
Elvish Visionary- one of the advantages with going green is getting a two mana dude that draws cards when it EtB, therefore allowing it to easily fit on the curve. Because of this, it helps you reach your combo and once you've established the infinite mana, you can use this to find a way to end the game.
Huntmaster of the Fells- this deck will probably take a bunch of hits early. Having the card draw and blockers off of Huntmaster will be really key. In addition it can serve as a wincon by generating infinite wolves with the inifinite mana.
Amass the Components- being a combo deck, I think that drawing more cards is the best thing we can do. For this deck, this is essentially a concentrate, since whatever card we pitch is one we don't need for the combo.
Bonfire of the Damned- personally, I think this is a much better choice over Brimstone Volley. It kills multiple creatures, it is better for helping us hold out against aggro decks, and after generating infinite mana, hitting someone for 500 billion off of Bonfire will usually end the game :p.
Alright, so let's see what we cand do with this.
Edit: Two things. First, there is also the possibilty of building this with a birthing pod setup. I'm not a huge fan, but just putting it out there. The other thing is the sideboard. Here is what I'm thinking for a sideboard:
3x Spellskite
2x Flashfreeze
3x Whipflare
2x Dismember
3x Apostle's Blessing
2x Ancient Grudge
Augur of Bolas - If you are playing a version with more dig/cantrips, this allows you to get to them and also soulbond to deadeye on your last iteration to find the spell to kill your opponent.
Archaeomancer Similar if you are using a version with more dig spells however, elvish visionary does this job better. If you play this lots of things become win conditions and opens the possibility of lots of loops if you get the combo. (burn, d-tide shenanigans, thought scour loop, anything you want). Just be sure to announce the mana you are making (8000000000000000 blue first then whatever other colors you want).
Thragtusk has to be in this deck if you are RUG, although I guess huntmaster is very similar.
I've been testing this some as well and it seems very well positioned just in terms of artifact destruction and black removal being the only real way to interact with the combo. Remember too that you don't really need anything to kill them once you've got the combo in place since you can lock them out on upkeep each turn/steal all their permenants for the turn. I'll post my list later when I'm not at work, but it definitely is very fun, very big and at least tier 2 (insomuch as URx control is fringe)!
The problem with that strategy is that increasing confusion is only useful with infinite mana and blue sun's zenith is marginally useful without infinite mana. With the cards here, there is still the inevitability of simply winning with infinite mana, but the cards are much more useful without infinite. Huntmaster + Deadeye Navigator is still annoying to deal with and Bonfire is still extremely useful.
I'll give you Archaeomancer. In the U/R version, he is quite good, especially if you have any burn spell like incinerate or gut shot in your deck. He isn't too out of place on the curve, so I would say he is a reasonable option. I personally prefer the cheapness of Elvish Visionary, and I think the deck needs the survivability that Huntmaster provides. But I do think he is a good option for the deck.
Augur of Bolas doesn't fit too well into the deck imo. The instant and sorceries in the deck aren't really that important, and there are not enough to consistently draw them off of him. In addition, he can't be used to draw into win conditions (except for Bonfire and there are better ways of doing that). Not saying he's a bad card, just not right for the deck.
Glad to hear about your testing. I'll be quite interested in seeing your list when you get it up.
Yeah, more or less every time a new set comes out, I become interested in making a UR combo deck. I'll get the list up as soon as I can.
I do agree with you on augur somewhat. Visionary is much better in this deck. I do think thragtusk should be in here possibly over huntmaster. One other card that may be interesting is Solemn Simulacrum as it would likely help the deck with its mana hunger. Depending on how much Delver takes a hit with 2013 or if a blue based control deck (other then this) gets a big chunk of the meta, cavern of souls definitely works here too.
Playing all these other cards that synergize with navigator seems silly, as if the opponent is going to be able to remove a combo piece they should always try to get the navigator. Plus you have 8 copies of the other creatures required to go infinite. The only other creatures I'd run is some copies of snapcaster mage, and some copies of spellskite in tue board against black decks.
I've got a list, but not on me. I'll post it later.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
For the most part, I agree with you. Having things that only are good once you've reached the combo are bad, and the primary goal of the deck should be to protect the combo. All I would say is that I think it is still necessary to have cards like Huntmaster and Bonfire simply because this combo isn't particularly fast (I think the absolute earliest it could combo off is turn 6 unless you use ramp). But, I'll look for places to put a couple of negates into my list.
The main reason I went with Huntmaster of the Fells over Thragtusk is that huntmaster fits better into the curve. Turn 5, we really want to be playing Guilded Lotus. Having to choose between staying alive or getting a combo piece onto the board is not something I want to do. Huntmaster also encourages your opponent to be less catious and reliant on counterspells, therefore presenting opportunities to get combo pieces onto the field.
Solemn Simulacrum is an interesting option, but I don't think he does what we need. He doesn't hit the field until turn 4, so he doesn't provide additional mana until turn 5. Turn 5 we already have 5 drops we want to play, so ramping to 6 mana isn't very relevant. All in all, good card, just not good here imo.
That said...i don't think a pure combo deck that doesn't go critical until T6 (maybe T5 with ramp) at the earliest has a hope in hell in a format with the ridiculous aggro decks we have right now. I think you have to pair the U with either B or W and go heavy control or tempo to make this work.
The advantage of this approach is that control is always going to give you time to find your win-con. Once you do, it doesn't matter if it's Restoration Angel, deadeye combo or Hammer of Bogardan. plus you still have the possibility of the oops-I-win draw for that dirty combo feeling. Conversely, pure combo is a goldfish deck that really just hopes to live long enough to go critical.
So, without any testing or tuning and literally off the top of my head, I think i will throw something like the following together and test them -- one control and one pure combo.
Control
Can be two or three colours with the land we have now. It's good enough for Esper control decks so it should be just fine for this. I think you can just take the Sun Titan combo out of Flare and get something pretty solid.
3 Gilded Lotus
4 Deciever Exarch
2 Spellskite
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 White Sun's Zenith
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Day of Judgment
1 Terminus
2 Mana Leak
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Go For the Throat
2 Doom Blade
1 Dismember
Combo
3 Gilded Lotus
4 Deciever Exarch
2 Spellskite
2 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Vapor Snag
4 Unsummon
2 Devastation Tide (or whatever the miracle Evacuation is called)
4 Mana Leak
Like I said, totally off the top of my head so not at all optimized, but a decent point of conversation I think.
/M
edit: I used exactly the same coding with both these decks and they look different. Weird.
Kessig Wolf Run
Stensia Bloodhall
Nephalia Drownyard
........................
4 Deadeye Navigator
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Deceiver Exarch
4 Zealous Conscripts
2 Snapcaster Mage
Removal (10):
3 Gutshot
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Ponder
1 Negate
4 Mana leak
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
maybe G/U/R ? i like it cuz it sounds like "grrr" lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
I haven't worked on a list yet, but I am doing it right now
if we're going control, I'd prefer to go more into U/b and turn it into a mill, maybe with a splash of red for conscripts and maybe...just maybe....Bolas?
BWZombie ControlBW
RWBoros Humans $10 versionWR
BBBMono Black Zombie VampsBBB
BWExalted FalconsWB
In the Brewery:
RUIzzet Dead Yet?UR
UWBEsper TokensBWU
The problem is the combo is HIGH CMC. The desperate need for interaction is at the lower CMC.
Well considering it is impossible to have more than two in a box of 36 boosters given typical mythic print runs; I'd say you were very lucky.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
It was from a shop that randomly opens boxes and shuffle's the packs, so the odds are changed
BWZombie ControlBW
RWBoros Humans $10 versionWR
BBBMono Black Zombie VampsBBB
BWExalted FalconsWB
In the Brewery:
RUIzzet Dead Yet?UR
UWBEsper TokensBWU
im not saying i dont like the versions that are on here im just saying this one has any chance the others have.
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
I agree...
Unfortunately, if you want to maximize the combo you want 4 navigators, and 4 Zealous Conscripts.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
ya i suppose your right. having 4 navigators, 4 zealous, and 2 frosties would be pretty high.
Maybe for my deck i could just put this in as a capable side shenanigan, but asside my main focus of control. having a gur deck is different, which is one of the many reasons why i wanna build it... lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
I agree that frostie is a great SB card in this case.
I still think Grixis or UR is better for control than RUG which lends itself better to midrange with an oops combo.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
true, true.
zealous and navigator is nasty with the open mana. that much is certain
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Deceiver Exarch
3x Deadeye Navigator
2x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Zealous Conscripts
4x Gilded Lotus
Sorceries:
4x Ponder
3x Faithless Looting
3x Rampant Growth
1x Devil's Play
Instants:
3x Apostle's Blessing
2x Sulfur Falls
3x Mountain
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Island
7x Forest
This version looks good on paper, but I'll have to run some testing to see how solid it is otherwise....
Wait, so you are saying that one shouldn't play control because you are simply "hoping you don't lose".
When you goldfish the ramp list it will probably seem more consistent than and will go off quicker than the control list. But in real matches, the control list will gain ground; the question is whether it overtakes the ramp list in consistency. This will largely depend on the metagame.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
ya i agree, again lol when i play control im not hoping i dont lose, im sitting with my mana untapped while my opponent stresses on what answers i may or may not have for him my hand while he tries to play out his deck.
but none of that matters if the deck doesnt have consistency. we need playtesting... lol
Thanks you very much DarkNightCavalier for the Sig.
2x Evolving Wilds
10x Island
6x Mountain
2x Stensia Bloodhall
4x Ponder
4x Faithless Looting
3x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Devil's Play
4x Deadeye Navigator
4x Deceiver Exarch
3x Zealous Conscripts
4x Gilded Lotus
My first shot at it.
Deceiver Exarch and Zealous Conscripts accomplish the same thing. Same goes for Stensia Bloodhall, Bonfire of the Damned, and Devil's Play. Added bonus to Devil's Play is that you can pitch it to Faithless Looting, then flash it back for the kill later on. May up it to 4, it seems really good. The rest is dig dig dig for pieces.
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▲ ▲
I am thinking in Grixis that Nicol Bolas wouldn't be a bad secondary wincon. Turn 5 Gilded Lotus = 3 mana up for Deceiver Exarch, the 8 mana for turn 6 (Bolas, maybe even Griselbrand). Bolas or Griselbrand would likely be a 1 of secondary wincon. Bolas is the nuts, but Griselbrand is great too and can draw you into the combo if necessary.