This is my first attempt at a pauper deck, and I decided to pick none other than the most expensive uncommon I could find (see, I'm already bad at this).
The goal is to bounce for crazy card advantage, swing with spuds, and thoroughly annoy your opponents in the process.
Yey, more pauper EDH players! Not bad for a first attempt IMO. My play group limits the commander to a common rather than uncommon, so I run a similar concept with Winged Coatl instead. Since the snake doesn't cantrip though, my list focuses more on abusing Viridian Longbow and damage dealing triggers than bounce (though I run plenty of that too).
One thing I find missing in your list are "engine" type cards that generate repeated long term card advantage. Since I'm not in black, I'm limited to "bounce engines" like Capsize, Havengul Skaab and Viridian Longbow + Sigil of Sleep. Those will probably work well for you too, but Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest are stronger options. I'd prioritize those before one-shot effects like Unearth and Man-o'-War.
Another thing I'd want in a Pauper list is some sort of finisher. I run Untamed Might in my UG build and I think Howl from Beyond would work just as well in yours - seeing as you do have a cheap evasive general and want to attack to win. If you do, you will probably want to include Dizzy Spell too - I love it, but the again I also rely on Viridian Longbow for most of my removal needs. You have quite a few 1 CMC utility spells though, so it could be worth your while.
There are a few cards I think you should consider cutting:
Crookclaw Transmuter: The ETB-ability is rather useless
Pith Driller: Overcosted for what it does. Evincar's Justice should cover all your weenie killing needs.
Explorer's Scope: This should be Darksteel Relic. Overall, you're missing out on a lot of good draw/search/filter like Brainstorm, Mystical Teachings and Forbidden Alchemy.
Leonin Bola: Consider cards like Freed from the Real or Stonybrook Angler in this slot instead - they come with Viridian Longbow synergy as well.
Slagwurm Armor: What is this supposed to help with?
Mistvein Borderpost: Terrible. Run good artifact ramp like Wayfarer's Bauble instead.
Necromantic Thirst: Throw away in favor of the more resilient grave engines I mentioned.
For more inspiration, I can recommend a few threads:
Dozu's Child of Alara Pauper: Yes it's 5 color, but it's one of the best threads to read through in order to get what works best in pauper. Also, the list is like 60% U/B anyway, so this should be your first stop for goodstuff cards in your colors.
Zombie Shakespears's Merieke Pauper: Almost same colors as you and I think you could pick up a worthy inclusion or two from this list. It has tested well in non-pauper environments too, which is saying something.
My own Winged Coatl list: Another flying deathtouch general but with green instead of black. I worked on it a lot so I hope it can give some ideas.
You'll find them all on page 1 on this forum. Finally, there were a few gems in your list that I have missed and am now considering for my own list:
Thalakos Seer: I already run Looter il-Kor and Blighted Agent, but not the small cantripping dudes (Elvish Visionary, Sea Gate Oracle). This is an interesting mix that I'll have to consider.
Wormfang Drake: A 3/4 flying for 3 mana is pretty spectacular in pauper by itself, but with a "drawback" that's actually a benefit in an ETB-list? And it helps recovery against sweepers, permits instant speed ETB-shenanigans with bounce-effects etc. Wow. I must find room for this one. But what to cut, eh?
Hope that gave you something to think about. I'd much appreciate your feedback on my Winged Coatl list too
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One thing I find missing in your list are "engine" type cards that generate repeated long term card advantage. Since I'm not in black, I'm limited to "bounce engines" like Capsize, Havengul Skaab and Viridian Longbow + Sigil of Sleep. Those will probably work well for you too, but Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest are stronger options. I'd prioritize those before one-shot effects like Unearth and Man-o'-War.
My primary engine cards are Cavern Harpy and Escape Routes...but I added Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest, because they are definitely superior to one-shot grave rez.
Man-o'-War and the like are pretty rad in here...being able to bounce my general to draw more cards or to continually bounce my opponents' creatures....I wouldn't want to replace them. I'd even add Aether Adept if I could find something to cut.
Another thing I'd want in a Pauper list is some sort of finisher. I run Untamed Might in my UG build and I think Howl from Beyond would work just as well in yours - seeing as you do have a cheap evasive general and want to attack to win. If you do, you will probably want to include Dizzy Spell too - I love it, but the again I also rely on Viridian Longbow for most of my removal needs. You have quite a few 1 CMC utility spells though, so it could be worth your while.
good point...both added.
There are a few cards I think you should consider cutting:
Crookclaw Transmuter: The ETB-ability is rather useless
Pith Driller: Overcosted for what it does. Evincar's Justice should cover all your weenie killing needs.
Mistvein Borderpost: Terrible. Run good artifact ramp like Wayfarer's Bauble instead.
Necromantic Thirst: Throw away in favor of the more resilient grave engines I mentioned.
Leonin Bola: Consider cards like Freed from the Real or Stonybrook Angler in this slot instead - they come with Viridian Longbow synergy as well.
removed these guys.
I thought crookclaw would be better in this format, but it doesn't seem the case....although it's pretty funny with slagwurm armor
Explorer's Scope: This should be Darksteel Relic. Overall, you're missing out on a lot of good draw/search/filter like Brainstorm, Mystical Teachings and Forbidden Alchemy.
Slagwurm Armor: What is this supposed to help with?
Explorer's Scope is busted with all of my evasive guys...it's tutorable with trinket mage/dizzy spell...repeated ramp...don't think I'm willing to part with it.
I assume you mean Darksteel Pendant? I'd truthfully rather have a Sage Owl or Tower Geist than it...I want maximum creatures so I can keep cycling through abilities...scry 1 isn't very exciting to me when I'm drawing multiple cards a turn off of my creatures.
Slagwurm Armor was included because it's easily fetched...and my guys are TINY. the armor makes everything much more difficult to kill..
My pleasure, glad some of the suggestion were useful And yes, Darksteel Relic -> Darksteel Pendant.
Man-o'-War and the like are pretty rad in here...being able to bounce my general to draw more cards
I thought along the same vein when toying with the idea of making Coiling Oracle my general, but I don't think it's that great. You end up paying 5 mana for a 2/2, a 1/1 and a card. That's not much of a "combo" compared to something like Mulldrifter which gives you a 2/2 flyer and 2 cards for the same price.
And even if we look at something more optimal like Mulldrifter and you're relying on engines like Cavern Harpy and Escape Routes, you end up paying 7-8 mana to draw 2 cards. With a 2 card combo... That's why I personally choose to cut back on the bounce package and just include some good draw spells instead. There are some effects that can only be had on a stick, and there are some that are even best in stick form (Sakura-Tribe Elder is an example), but I don't think bouncing creature cantrips in general are worth it when you're in blue anyway.
YMMV - just food for thought. Bouncing ETB dudes quickly leads to the danger of cool things, as does the struggle to find playable combos in Pauper. I took me a while to realize that sometimes, something lackluster but straight-forward like Foresee is better.
Explorer's Scope is busted with all of my evasive guys...it's tutorable with trinket mage/dizzy spell...repeated ramp...don't think I'm willing to part with it.
OK, I use Avenging Druid in a similar way in my build and it is pretty broken there too so I get what you mean.
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I thought along the same vein when toying with the idea of making Coiling Oracle my general, but I don't think it's that great. You end up paying 5 mana for a 2/2, a 1/1 and a card. That's not much of a "combo" compared to something like Mulldrifter which gives you a 2/2 flyer and 2 cards for the same price.
And even if we look at something more optimal like Mulldrifter and you're relying on engines like Cavern Harpy and Escape Routes, you end up paying 7-8 mana to draw 2 cards. With a 2 card combo... That's why I personally choose to cut back on the bounce package and just include some good draw spells instead. There are some effects that can only be had on a stick, and there are some that are even best in stick form (Sakura-Tribe Elder is an example), but I don't think bouncing creature cantrips in general are worth it when you're in blue anyway.
I totally hear you, but if you don't mind, let's discuss this a little more. If I'm overvaluing bounce engines (which is entirely possible) I'd like to understand why.
Compared to something like Grim Harvest which is a Pauper staple:
Cavern Harpy + Mulldrifter =4UUB and 1 life for 2 cards Mulldrifter and Cavern Harpy in play...or 2UUB for just Cavern Harpy in Play
Grim Harvest + Mulldrifter=5BBU for 2 cards if we are talking about a repeated use w/o a creature in play...7BBU with mulldrifter in play...3BBU at its cheapest for one shot of grim harvest and evoked drifter.
which is fairly comparable...
Foresee is 3U for scry 4 draw 2 that is a one shot spell...compared to Harpy/Drifter which can be repeated as neccessary and is an additional 1UB for a 2/1 nigh-killable flyer and a 2/2 flyer with no draw manipulation.
Escape Routes is a little more limited in its targets but can exile creatures through Faceless Butcher triggers and is an easy 2UUB draw a card with my general...not to mention the interactions with other creatures.
One shot bouncers like Man-o'-War and Sedraxis Alchemist just allow for more flexibility...and creatures are easier than spells to recur in Pauper. They function as tempo-gainers, token nukes, save your guys from Lignify effects, fizzle Armadillo Cloaks and similar, a warm body on the battlefield, and get an extra Etb out of the more pivotal creatures in the deck. They're a lot like charms in that respect.
To be fair, I do not have any experiences with Pauper EDH...I'm only theorizing based on experience in other formats and assuming that Pauper EDH goes through a lot more turns before a game ends. I also imagine that grindy, slow, repetable effects are what typically wins games (and being able to avoid a fireball to the dome).
YMMV - just food for thought. Bouncing ETB dudes quickly leads to the danger of cool things, as does the struggle to find playable combos in Pauper. I took me a while to realize that sometimes, something lackluster but straight-forward like Foresee is better.
Winning is also not of supreme importance to me, but I'd like to leave this out when discussing what is more effective. Just for the record, I'd much rather have my general really shape the flavor of the deck its commanding. "Cool things" are what EDH is about for me.
This is my build Since its so similar to yours I don't see a need to make my own thread. I notice you dint run crypt ratsor pestilence which are awesome but you do run slagworm armor when I test saw it I thought it was for rats / pestilence why do you run it? I want to add slagworm to my lust for this reason as well ad ashes to ashes. It's also notable I play alot of 1v1 and 3 man pods in pauper. How do you feel about relit acid capsize combo is capsize good enough that it's a wasted slot ? It's been decent on mtgo where I have to use scargasm as my general.
My group is likely going to give Pauper EDH a try, and this list really appeals to me. Couple changes I might make:
- I don't like Howl from Beyond. I understand the need to finish a game, but you don't run much ramp, so it seems like this won't really get very far. Evincar's Justice and Crypt Rats are probably better.
- Does Pauper really make auras like Helm of the Ghastlord playable? Wouldn't you be better off with equipment, like maybe a Bonesplitter (also a Trinket)?
- Jhessian Zombies seems a lot better than Twisted Abomination due to the versatility. Do you often find yourself hard-casting TA?
- Is Dizzy Spell worth it? Most of your one-drops are artifacts, so it's basically Trinket Mage without the 2/2 body, and that doesn't seem very good. How often do you tutor up Curfew or Undying Evil?
- On the subject of one-drops, Tortured Existence seems insane. Pit Keeper seems like the weakest recursion spell, so I might make that swap.
- Also on the subject of one-drops, how about Innocent Blood?
The goal is to bounce for crazy card advantage, swing with spuds, and thoroughly annoy your opponents in the process.
Suggestions are welcomed!
1 Baleful Strix
Creatures (31)
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Dream Stalker
1 Pit Keeper
1 Thalakos Seer
1 Tidehollow Strix
1 Vedalken Aethermage
1 Cadaver Imp
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Liliana’s Specter
1 Man-o’-War
1 Mistblade Shinobi
1 Moriok Scavenger
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Pilgrim’s Eye
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Sedraxis Alchemist
1 Trinket Mage
1 Wormfang Drake
1 Archaeomancer
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Gravedigger
1 Heartstabber Mosquito
1 Liliana’s Shade
1 Mist Raven
1 Ninja of Deep Hours
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Mulldrifter
1 Okiba-Gang Shinobi
1 Twisted Abomination
1 Dizzy Spell
1 Curfew
1 Undying Evil
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Grim Harvest
1 Into the Roil
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Capsize
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Murder
1 Perplex
1 Reaping the Graves
1 Recoil
1 Soul Manipulation
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Death Denied
1 Howl from Beyond
Sorcery (2)
1 Disturbed Burial
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Syphon Mind
Artifacts (9)
1 Executioner’s Capsule
1 Explorer’s Scope
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Slagwurm Armor
1 Viridian Longbow
1 Mind Stone
1 Dimir Signet
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Escape Routes
1 Rhystic Study
1 Helm of the Ghastlord
Lands (36)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Barren Moor
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Command Tower
1 Rupture Spire
12 Swamp
13 Island
Cards I'd like to fit in:
Changelog:
-1 Pith Driller, + 1 Heartstabber Mosquito
-1 Crookclaw Transmuter, +1 Dizzy Spell
-1 Stir the Grave, +1 Grim Harvest
-1 Unearth, +1 Disturbed Burial
-1 Mistvein Borderpost, +1 Evincar's Justice
-1 Necromantic Thirst, +1 Howl from Beyond
-1 Leonin Bola, +1 Skinthinner
-1 Repulse, +1 Mystical Teachings
-1 Swamp, +1 Rupture Spire
Thanks for looking!
One thing I find missing in your list are "engine" type cards that generate repeated long term card advantage. Since I'm not in black, I'm limited to "bounce engines" like Capsize, Havengul Skaab and Viridian Longbow + Sigil of Sleep. Those will probably work well for you too, but Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest are stronger options. I'd prioritize those before one-shot effects like Unearth and Man-o'-War.
Another thing I'd want in a Pauper list is some sort of finisher. I run Untamed Might in my UG build and I think Howl from Beyond would work just as well in yours - seeing as you do have a cheap evasive general and want to attack to win. If you do, you will probably want to include Dizzy Spell too - I love it, but the again I also rely on Viridian Longbow for most of my removal needs. You have quite a few 1 CMC utility spells though, so it could be worth your while.
There are a few cards I think you should consider cutting:
Crookclaw Transmuter: The ETB-ability is rather useless
Pith Driller: Overcosted for what it does. Evincar's Justice should cover all your weenie killing needs.
Explorer's Scope: This should be Darksteel Relic. Overall, you're missing out on a lot of good draw/search/filter like Brainstorm, Mystical Teachings and Forbidden Alchemy.
Leonin Bola: Consider cards like Freed from the Real or Stonybrook Angler in this slot instead - they come with Viridian Longbow synergy as well.
Slagwurm Armor: What is this supposed to help with?
Mistvein Borderpost: Terrible. Run good artifact ramp like Wayfarer's Bauble instead.
Necromantic Thirst: Throw away in favor of the more resilient grave engines I mentioned.
For more inspiration, I can recommend a few threads:
Dozu's Child of Alara Pauper: Yes it's 5 color, but it's one of the best threads to read through in order to get what works best in pauper. Also, the list is like 60% U/B anyway, so this should be your first stop for goodstuff cards in your colors.
Zombie Shakespears's Merieke Pauper: Almost same colors as you and I think you could pick up a worthy inclusion or two from this list. It has tested well in non-pauper environments too, which is saying something.
My own Winged Coatl list: Another flying deathtouch general but with green instead of black. I worked on it a lot so I hope it can give some ideas.
You'll find them all on page 1 on this forum. Finally, there were a few gems in your list that I have missed and am now considering for my own list:
Thalakos Seer: I already run Looter il-Kor and Blighted Agent, but not the small cantripping dudes (Elvish Visionary, Sea Gate Oracle). This is an interesting mix that I'll have to consider.
Wormfang Drake: A 3/4 flying for 3 mana is pretty spectacular in pauper by itself, but with a "drawback" that's actually a benefit in an ETB-list? And it helps recovery against sweepers, permits instant speed ETB-shenanigans with bounce-effects etc. Wow. I must find room for this one. But what to cut, eh?
Hope that gave you something to think about. I'd much appreciate your feedback on my Winged Coatl list too
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
My primary engine cards are Cavern Harpy and Escape Routes...but I added Disturbed Burial and Grim Harvest, because they are definitely superior to one-shot grave rez.
Man-o'-War and the like are pretty rad in here...being able to bounce my general to draw more cards or to continually bounce my opponents' creatures....I wouldn't want to replace them. I'd even add Aether Adept if I could find something to cut.
good point...both added.
removed these guys.
I thought crookclaw would be better in this format, but it doesn't seem the case....although it's pretty funny with slagwurm armor
Explorer's Scope is busted with all of my evasive guys...it's tutorable with trinket mage/dizzy spell...repeated ramp...don't think I'm willing to part with it.
I assume you mean Darksteel Pendant? I'd truthfully rather have a Sage Owl or Tower Geist than it...I want maximum creatures so I can keep cycling through abilities...scry 1 isn't very exciting to me when I'm drawing multiple cards a turn off of my creatures.
Slagwurm Armor was included because it's easily fetched...and my guys are TINY. the armor makes everything much more difficult to kill..
Changes made:
-1 Pith Driller, + 1 Heartstabber Mosquito
-1 Crookclaw Transmuter, +1 Dizzy Spell
-1 Stir the Grave, +1 Grim Harvest
-1 Unearth, +1 Disturbed Burial
-1 Mistvein Borderpost, +1 Evincar's Justice
-1 Necromantic Thirst, +1 Howl from Beyond
-1 Leonin Bola, +1 Skinthinner
-1 Repulse, +1 Mystical Teachings
-1 Swamp, +1 Rupture Spire
Thanks for your feedback, it was really helpful!
I thought along the same vein when toying with the idea of making Coiling Oracle my general, but I don't think it's that great. You end up paying 5 mana for a 2/2, a 1/1 and a card. That's not much of a "combo" compared to something like Mulldrifter which gives you a 2/2 flyer and 2 cards for the same price.
And even if we look at something more optimal like Mulldrifter and you're relying on engines like Cavern Harpy and Escape Routes, you end up paying 7-8 mana to draw 2 cards. With a 2 card combo... That's why I personally choose to cut back on the bounce package and just include some good draw spells instead. There are some effects that can only be had on a stick, and there are some that are even best in stick form (Sakura-Tribe Elder is an example), but I don't think bouncing creature cantrips in general are worth it when you're in blue anyway.
YMMV - just food for thought. Bouncing ETB dudes quickly leads to the danger of cool things, as does the struggle to find playable combos in Pauper. I took me a while to realize that sometimes, something lackluster but straight-forward like Foresee is better.
OK, I use Avenging Druid in a similar way in my build and it is pretty broken there too so I get what you mean.
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
I totally hear you, but if you don't mind, let's discuss this a little more. If I'm overvaluing bounce engines (which is entirely possible) I'd like to understand why.
Compared to something like Grim Harvest which is a Pauper staple:
Cavern Harpy + Mulldrifter =4UUB and 1 life for 2 cards Mulldrifter and Cavern Harpy in play...or 2UUB for just Cavern Harpy in Play
Grim Harvest + Mulldrifter=5BBU for 2 cards if we are talking about a repeated use w/o a creature in play...7BBU with mulldrifter in play...3BBU at its cheapest for one shot of grim harvest and evoked drifter.
which is fairly comparable...
Foresee is 3U for scry 4 draw 2 that is a one shot spell...compared to Harpy/Drifter which can be repeated as neccessary and is an additional 1UB for a 2/1 nigh-killable flyer and a 2/2 flyer with no draw manipulation.
Escape Routes is a little more limited in its targets but can exile creatures through Faceless Butcher triggers and is an easy 2UUB draw a card with my general...not to mention the interactions with other creatures.
One shot bouncers like Man-o'-War and Sedraxis Alchemist just allow for more flexibility...and creatures are easier than spells to recur in Pauper. They function as tempo-gainers, token nukes, save your guys from Lignify effects, fizzle Armadillo Cloaks and similar, a warm body on the battlefield, and get an extra Etb out of the more pivotal creatures in the deck. They're a lot like charms in that respect.
To be fair, I do not have any experiences with Pauper EDH...I'm only theorizing based on experience in other formats and assuming that Pauper EDH goes through a lot more turns before a game ends. I also imagine that grindy, slow, repetable effects are what typically wins games (and being able to avoid a fireball to the dome).
Winning is also not of supreme importance to me, but I'd like to leave this out when discussing what is more effective. Just for the record, I'd much rather have my general really shape the flavor of the deck its commanding. "Cool things" are what EDH is about for me.
3 tide wallow strix
4 darksteel ingot
5 repulse
6 repeal
7 cavern harpy
8 ghostly flicker
9 tortured existence
10 capsize
11 deep analysis
12 reality acid
13 perplex
14 drifting phantasm
15 impulse
16 preordain
17 bone to ash
18 ponder
19 rend flesh
20 counterspell
21 sign in blood
22 consult the necro sages
23 mull drifter
24 man-o-war
25 mana leak
26 exclude
27 dimir infiltrator
28 archeomancer
29 dimir house gayrd
30 gravedigger
31 faceless butcher
32 ninja of deep hours
33 dimir signet
34 trinket Mage
35 sedrixas alchemist
36 escape routes
37 forbidden alchemy
38 hymn to torach
39 helm of the ghastlord
40 disturbed burial
41 eldrazi crusher
42 lilana specter
43 crypt rats
44 nihil spell bomb
45 excutionsrs capsule
46 merchant scroll
47 muddle the mixture
48 foresee
49 compulsive research
50 wayfarers bauble
51 flood
52 murder
53 into the roil
54 arcane denial
55 cancel
56 pestilence
57 snap
58 halimr wavewatch
59 undertaker
60 scrivener
61 mnuemonic wall
62 Merfolk looter
63 recoil
64 soul manipulation
66 evolving wilds
67 halimr depths
68 bojuka bog
69 command tower
70 dimir aquduct
15 swamps
This is my build Since its so similar to yours I don't see a need to make my own thread. I notice you dint run crypt ratsor pestilence which are awesome but you do run slagworm armor when I test saw it I thought it was for rats / pestilence why do you run it? I want to add slagworm to my lust for this reason as well ad ashes to ashes. It's also notable I play alot of 1v1 and 3 man pods in pauper. How do you feel about relit acid capsize combo is capsize good enough that it's a wasted slot ? It's been decent on mtgo where I have to use scargasm as my general.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
- I don't like Howl from Beyond. I understand the need to finish a game, but you don't run much ramp, so it seems like this won't really get very far. Evincar's Justice and Crypt Rats are probably better.
- Does Pauper really make auras like Helm of the Ghastlord playable? Wouldn't you be better off with equipment, like maybe a Bonesplitter (also a Trinket)?
- Jhessian Zombies seems a lot better than Twisted Abomination due to the versatility. Do you often find yourself hard-casting TA?
- Is Dizzy Spell worth it? Most of your one-drops are artifacts, so it's basically Trinket Mage without the 2/2 body, and that doesn't seem very good. How often do you tutor up Curfew or Undying Evil?
- On the subject of one-drops, Tortured Existence seems insane. Pit Keeper seems like the weakest recursion spell, so I might make that swap.
- Also on the subject of one-drops, how about Innocent Blood?
Again, love the deck, hope this helps you out!
EDIT: Aether Adept seems a little better than Man-o'-War because he's a Wizard...