Felt like these guys deserved their own thread after their stellar showings over the years. Now we've had time with the three new additions to the cycle, how do they stack up to their ancestors SoFaI and SoLaS? Give five in the first pack, what would you first pick be and why? Are any of them cuttable at small cube sizes? If (when?) the five allied swords see print, would you run them alongside these, and if so, how many can be supported in a 360 cube?
Of the newcomers, SoFaF has impressed me for its ability to double your effective output and provide disruption, but the huge life swing potential of SoWaP has been most influential of the new cards. In particular, it can do cruel things with Wheel of Fortune effects.
They're all pretty broken. Sword of Fire and Ice is my favorite, and Sword of Feast and Famine is my least favorite. The other ones seem to fall up or down in the ranking based on what situation they're in, but my ranking is probably:
#1 Fire and Ice
#2 Light and Shadow
#2 Body and Mind
#4 War and Peace
#5 Feast and Famine
They are constantly shuffling in rank (with F+I on top, and F+F on the bottom) but in non roto drafting I don't value them much differently. They are all bombs.
B+M has the worst protection, but if you get a hit in, your opponent is in a world of trouble. You have a 2/2 ready to pick up the sword straight away even if you lose the original to removal. For that reason, I love it with hasty red creatures in particular.
B+M has the worst protection, but if you get a hit in, your opponent is in a world of trouble. You have a 2/2 ready to pick up the sword straight away even if you lose the original to removal. For that reason, I love it with hasty red creatures in particular.
An equipment that produces its own carrier is just great. You also often win when you hit your opponent two times with this thing. Three times is definitely game over. And while it has the worst protection regarding removal, green has a lot of creatures that could block other Swords. Block and live, since green has lots of big guys and also a few regenerators. This sword just ignores all of them.
An equipment that produces its own carrier is just great. You also often win when you hit your opponent two times with this thing. Three times is definitely game over. And while it has the worst protection regarding removal, green has a lot of creatures that could block other Swords. Block and live, since green has lots of big guys and also a few regenerators. This sword just ignores all of them.
Yeah, double protection is never bad The fact that green just has more creatures than the other colours shouldn't be overlooked too. Less likely to see a chump blocker if you're pro-green.
Someone took LS and FI out of his cube because someone got beaten hard by one of the swords and threw the guy's cards, and then convinced himself that they're "too good," as the decks that it hoses (like a BW deck vs SoLS) "can't beat it."
Obviously, he refuses to use the new swords as well. Which is kinda a shame since aggro is bad enough in his cube.
Someone took LS and FI out of his cube because someone got beaten hard by one of the swords and threw the guy's cards, and then convinced himself that they're "too good," as the decks that it hoses (like a BW deck vs SoLS) "can't beat it."
Obviously, he refuses to use the new swords as well. Which is kinda a shame since aggro is bad enough in his cube.
Obviously, there's no way they're leaving my cube, unless artifacts become REALLY insanely tight.
Swords are pretty broken cards in that some decks just can't beat certain swords that are equipped. I guess this is why we draft artifact removal and counterspells. It is frustrating to lose to a sword with "protection from your deck" but I can usually blame myself for not getting enough ways to destroy the sword.
The swords are also one of the main reasons to ensure that you have a critical mass of artifact destruction.
I'm sure this is just a statistical variance thing, but I wonder if there is ever a time or deck where people would run one sword, but not run it if it were another sword.
I'm sure this is just a statistical variance thing, but I wonder if there is ever a time or deck where people would run one sword, but not run it if it were another sword.
I have only done this once. I ran Light and Shadow as a Genesis/Stronghold imitator for a Sneak Attack/Birthing Pod deck once. It's the only sword I wanted for that deck because I was specifically looking at the repeatable Raise Dead effect.
But generally speaking, no. The Swords are more or less interchangeable.
I'm sure this is just a statistical variance thing, but I wonder if there is ever a time or deck where people would run one sword, but not run it if it were another sword.
Absolutely, there is. Some of the swords are reasonable even if you a bit creature-light, or if you are cheating on creatures with cards like Mishra's Factory, etc. Sword of Light and Shadow can be disappointing without a card to return, but plenty of others in the cycle are still sweet, especially Fire & Ice and Body & Mind. Often in a deck like that, you have a lot of mana sinks and so Feast and Famine is also very sweet.
Fire and Ice + Body and Mind are the best because they make any deck with an even quasi-reasonable amount of creatures. The other three swords' effects are more conditional.
I cut SoBaM from my cube. I would probably play it if it's blue part did anything other than mill. Like most people were saying it is such a blow out on turn 5 to be hit by it, but I think ultimately it doesn't do anything interactive with any other cards in the cube. I'm not saying its not good or to good. I think mill is lame in limited. My cube doesn't run many plains walkers (4) but if I ran as many as I could I also wouldn't run the jace with the mill ability.
I cut SoBaM from my cube. I would probably play it if it's blue part did anything other than mill. Like most people were saying it is such a blow out on turn 5 to be hit by it, but I think ultimately it doesn't do anything interactive with any other cards in the cube. I'm not saying its not good or to good. I think mill is lame in limited. My cube doesn't run many plains walkers (4) but if I ran as many as I could I also wouldn't run the jace with the mill ability.
I never thought I'd hear the day someone cut SoBaM because it wasn't good enough :p, the mill is what makes it insane, 2 connects and they have to win fast, 3 and you just win. If you only get in once it can still be value due to the 2/2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to Cube but don't have one? Check the map if anyone is in your area and get cubing!
Are people rating SoLaS high because of the protections? There are often times when the abilities are irrelevant but you are effectively getting pro: removal (all swords protect against red to an extent by pumping creatures out of burn range).
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Are people rating SoLaS high because of the protections? There are often times when the abilities are irrelevant but you are effectively getting pro: removal (all swords protect against red to an extent by pumping creatures out of burn range).
Getting creatures back every turn is pretty amazing too. Not just the great protections.
Getting a creature back can be amazing with cheap etb guys. Combining the sword with Bone Shredder or Shriekmaw is the best case scenario, but there a other creatures that work well with it. It is also very good in a race, since both life gain and getting more attackers (or even just blockers) really helps coming out ahead. Add to this a protection from the best removal colors (including a nice toughness pump against red) and you have one of the best three swords.
I never thought I'd hear the day someone cut SoBaM because it wasn't good enough :p, the mill is what makes it insane, 2 connects and they have to win fast, 3 and you just win. If you only get in once it can still be value due to the 2/2.
I didn't say it wasn't good. I don't like that it doesn't interact with any other cards or archetypes in my cube. It's just bonkers mill. Same with M12 jace. It's just bonkers mill. I don't find those cards to be interesting in limited and I don't think they add to drafting or deck building at all so I'm not running either of them. They both are extremely powerful. If it was anything other then mill ten for the blue ability I would run the full sword suite.
I didn't say it wasn't good. I don't like that it doesn't interact with any other cards or archetypes in my cube. It's just bonkers mill. Same with M12 jace. It's just bonkers mill. I don't find those cards to be interesting in limited and I don't think they add to drafting or deck building at all so I'm not running either of them. They both are extremely powerful. If it was anything other then mill ten for the blue ability I would run the full sword suite.
I'll never understand this. They're both super powerful cards that win along a different axis, and if you get interrupted in the middle of winning along that axis, you don't have any way to keep going again, so you have to go back to caring about life total. That, in my mind, keeps them in check. You can absorb two hits from SOBAM, then kill the sword, and easily win the game (assuming you also killed the creatures that were hitting you with SOBAM).
Alternate win conditions, to me, are fun, and I like that there are powerful enough ones that they support themselves and you don't have to run an entire strategy in order to support the alternate wincon.
I tend to die to the damage about 95% of the time as opposed to the mill, so removing the card for being "un-interactive" seems like an overreaction. Jace 3 it is not. Sword of War and Peace almost always kills faster.
Edit: On second thought, 95 is probably a poor exaggeration. I'll restate as "a clear majority of the time".
Felt like these guys deserved their own thread after their stellar showings over the years. Now we've had time with the three new additions to the cycle, how do they stack up to their ancestors SoFaI and SoLaS? Give five in the first pack, what would you first pick be and why? Are any of them cuttable at small cube sizes? If (when?) the five allied swords see print, would you run them alongside these, and if so, how many can be supported in a 360 cube?
Of the newcomers, SoFaF has impressed me for its ability to double your effective output and provide disruption, but the huge life swing potential of SoWaP has been most influential of the new cards. In particular, it can do cruel things with Wheel of Fortune effects.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
#1 Fire and Ice
#2 Light and Shadow
#2 Body and Mind
#4 War and Peace
#5 Feast and Famine
With L&S and B&M being tied for second best.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
This would be my list, too. I wasn't sure if I wanted to rank L&S or B&M second, but you took care of this problem.
An equipment that produces its own carrier is just great. You also often win when you hit your opponent two times with this thing. Three times is definitely game over. And while it has the worst protection regarding removal, green has a lot of creatures that could block other Swords. Block and live, since green has lots of big guys and also a few regenerators. This sword just ignores all of them.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Yeah, double protection is never bad The fact that green just has more creatures than the other colours shouldn't be overlooked too. Less likely to see a chump blocker if you're pro-green.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
http://hgcube.blogspot.com/ (help me Make my Custom CUBE!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=382498
The "Make a Proxy Thread
Redit Proxy Article "current gallery"
MY LEGACY ALTERS
Obviously, he refuses to use the new swords as well. Which is kinda a shame since aggro is bad enough in his cube.
Speaking of which, there was a tweet where Max McCall asked if people considered them to be sacred cows and if people would miss them if they were taken out. Heart skipped a beat when I saw that, since like the other cube, aggro's bad enough and taking them out just seems odd.
Obviously, there's no way they're leaving my cube, unless artifacts become REALLY insanely tight.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Swords are pretty broken cards in that some decks just can't beat certain swords that are equipped. I guess this is why we draft artifact removal and counterspells. It is frustrating to lose to a sword with "protection from your deck" but I can usually blame myself for not getting enough ways to destroy the sword.
The swords are also one of the main reasons to ensure that you have a critical mass of artifact destruction.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
I'm sure this is just a statistical variance thing, but I wonder if there is ever a time or deck where people would run one sword, but not run it if it were another sword.
I have only done this once. I ran Light and Shadow as a Genesis/Stronghold imitator for a Sneak Attack/Birthing Pod deck once. It's the only sword I wanted for that deck because I was specifically looking at the repeatable Raise Dead effect.
But generally speaking, no. The Swords are more or less interchangeable.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Absolutely, there is. Some of the swords are reasonable even if you a bit creature-light, or if you are cheating on creatures with cards like Mishra's Factory, etc. Sword of Light and Shadow can be disappointing without a card to return, but plenty of others in the cycle are still sweet, especially Fire & Ice and Body & Mind. Often in a deck like that, you have a lot of mana sinks and so Feast and Famine is also very sweet.
Fire and Ice + Body and Mind are the best because they make any deck with an even quasi-reasonable amount of creatures. The other three swords' effects are more conditional.
I never thought I'd hear the day someone cut SoBaM because it wasn't good enough :p, the mill is what makes it insane, 2 connects and they have to win fast, 3 and you just win. If you only get in once it can still be value due to the 2/2.
The Great Cube Map!
My Powered Cube
Draft it here!
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Getting creatures back every turn is pretty amazing too. Not just the great protections.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I have had drafts where I had to leave a sword in the SB (like the one in my most recent draft video) but it's usually uncommon.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
I have them the same with 4 and 5 switched.
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
I didn't say it wasn't good. I don't like that it doesn't interact with any other cards or archetypes in my cube. It's just bonkers mill. Same with M12 jace. It's just bonkers mill. I don't find those cards to be interesting in limited and I don't think they add to drafting or deck building at all so I'm not running either of them. They both are extremely powerful. If it was anything other then mill ten for the blue ability I would run the full sword suite.
And we don't play Jace 3.0, it's too much instant win.
I'll never understand this. They're both super powerful cards that win along a different axis, and if you get interrupted in the middle of winning along that axis, you don't have any way to keep going again, so you have to go back to caring about life total. That, in my mind, keeps them in check. You can absorb two hits from SOBAM, then kill the sword, and easily win the game (assuming you also killed the creatures that were hitting you with SOBAM).
Alternate win conditions, to me, are fun, and I like that there are powerful enough ones that they support themselves and you don't have to run an entire strategy in order to support the alternate wincon.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
Edit: On second thought, 95 is probably a poor exaggeration. I'll restate as "a clear majority of the time".
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS