Looking to add one more green fatty as I move my unpowered cube up from 360 to 450. Currently, have Woodfall Primus and Avenger of Zendikarin there already. I was thinking about adding Terrastodon or Hornet Queen but wanted to here people's experiences on Craterhoof Behemoth. Seems like if you have a decent but stalled green board, Craterhoof would break that stalemate and should win you the game. However, I can see it as more of a win-more and doesn't have the flexibility of the other two cards mentioned.
Anyone have any experiences or thoughts on the AVR fatty?
I like both Terastodon and Hornet Queen more than this guy. He requires that you have at least two other decent sized creatures out before he's really good. He seems good in G/X ramp but he's not good enough in a reanimator or some other decks that want to cheat a fatty into play. This guy on turn 2 is just a 5/5. Compare that to the 'Don or Queen Bee. I'd rather play the creature that will go into more decks/archetypes.
I was just thinking about making a thread about this card, since I watched the Andrew Cooperfauss cube draft where he rants about this card not being included with the AVR update of the MTGO cube.
I don't think it is a win-more card, since it can end games on the spot that you wouldn't have won otherwise. This with only two other creatures out is an Overrun + a hasty 5/5. And since the opponent can't really see this coming, it will often outright finish them off.
I agree with calibretto that he is only really good in some kind of green ramp deck or in slower environments, where your midrange decks can count on reaching eight mana even without some acceleration. While most other fatties double up as reanimation targets, this one doesn't excel in that role.
I was thinking about cutting Avenger for a bit. Seems like he never works out the way people want to in drafts. Usually just creates a bunch of chump blockers, which is annoying but not gamebreaking.
Maybe I'll try Craterhoof and Queen/Terrasto for a while.
EDIT: also kinda tempted to use him just because I have a foil one lying around...
It seems like a decent finisher, but I can't even begin to justify including it over Hornet Queen. If you add Hornet Queen and still want another finisher, you can talk about this guy, although I'd probably also run Terastodon over him too. Terastodon gets better than this guy if you run Sneak Attack, Natural Order, and support Reanimation, though. If you're hard casting more often, this may be the better 8 drop.
Just wanted to pipe in real quick and say that over the last month this card has probably killed more people (or been the result of more wins) than almost any other card in my cube (and most certainly done as much or more work than any of the other green "fatties"). It is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than it looks on paper, as the amount of damage it produces is absurd.
The problems that I see with tis card is that it isn't good on its own and does not work that well with creature based acceleration. Unless your opponent has 3+ other creatures on the board, instant speed removal can reduce the value that you get out of this card to something that isn't worth anything close to 8 mana.
How does this guy not work well with creature acceleration? Why does it matter if the opponent has 3+ creatures?
He plays poorly with creature based acceleration like Birds of Paradise, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Somberwald Sage, etc, because those creatures are all tapped the turn he comes into play, which means they don't attack. I don't want a 5/6 Birds of Paradise with trample that can't attack, it seems pretty crappy.
He plays poorly with creature based acceleration like Birds of Paradise, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Somberwald Sage, etc, because those creatures are all tapped the turn he comes into play, which means they don't attack. I don't want a 5/6 Birds of Paradise with trample that can't attack, it seems pretty crappy.
It does boost your other creatures as well though.
So if you have a random Wild Mongrel and 2 mana dudes, you still swing for 15 trample. I don't think that's a nonbo, but rather think they have fine synergy.
True, but if you played T1 Birds, T2 Rofellos, T3 Sage, then T4 Craterhoof, you swing with a 9/9 trample, then you have a 5/5. In order to have random other things, the game has to have gone on a little longer. Now you have to make sure you have random not mana dudes on the board before you play him.
It's not a horrible nonbo, but it definitely exists.
He plays poorly with creature based acceleration like Birds of Paradise, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Somberwald Sage, etc, because those creatures are all tapped the turn he comes into play, which means they don't attack. I don't want a 5/6 Birds of Paradise with trample that can't attack, it seems pretty crappy.
But he has haste, and gets a bigger boost. It is far better to cast him off of creature acceleration than off of any other type of accel (or no accel) so I fail to see how this is an accurate statement.
But he has haste, and gets a bigger boost. It is far better to cast him off of creature acceleration than off of any other type of accel (or no accel) so I fail to see how this is an accurate statement.
I consider paying 8 mana for a 9/9 trampler with haste that becomes a 5/5 the next turn to be bad. That's not enough for 8 mana in this format (as ridiculous as it sounds). Especially when you consider how horribly it fails the terminate test if you're ramping it out early.
It may be better to cast him off of Somberwald Sage than Grim Monolith, but ramping him out early still sucks. He wants to be the big dude at the end of the game when everyone has a bunch of little guys around and you need the mother of all Overruns. That's a lot more narrow than something like Terastodon or Woodfall Primus. Yes, in the late game he does really awesome things on stalled boards, but I'm less than enthralled by the fact that if I get the nut draw and could play him on turn 4 that I'm probably better holding on to him until later. I want it to be awesome when I play my 8 drop on turn 4, not underwhelming.
I think the argument then is "he plays poorly with acceleration" He really wants to be played in the late game, not ramped out quickly. And that is the real problem. The fact that when you do it with creatures it feels particularly bad doesn't really matter, it's just painful.
It should be noted he is infinitely better with Rofellos, Treespeaker, Lotus Cobra, and Somberwald Sage. Playing him on turn 5 off a Rofellos or sage should end the game with some random dorks on board. I put him tied with avenger on the list of fatties. They suffer opposite weaknesses with ramp and share 1 (instant removal)
Basically if you run avenger and dislike it's average results try this out, if you don't run avenger figure out which of the two you like more of you really want another ramp target.
As an end-game curve topper to break salemates, there's almost nothing better. He's truly a bomb 8-drop. My only issue with him is that he's not nearly as good when cheated into play. I want my 8cc creatures to be just as good (if not better) if they're reanimated into play on T3. He's just not that guy. That's why I prefer cards like Woodfall Primus & Hornet Queen ...even Pelakka Wurm and Terastodon over cards like the Avenger and the Behemoth. They play a lot better when I reanimate/Natural Order them onto the battlefield.
It should be noted he is infinitely better with Rofellos, Treespeaker, Lotus Cobra, and Somberwald Sage. Playing him on turn 5 off a Rofellos or sage should end the game with some random dorks on board. I put him tied with avenger on the list of fatties. They suffer opposite weaknesses with ramp and share 1 (instant removal)
Basically if you run avenger and dislike it's average results try this out, if you don't run avenger figure out which of the two you like more of you really want another ramp target.
Its really strange to me. What you're saying is so obvious, yet everyone is contorting themselves to rationalize why he isn't good enough. Meanwhile, other creatures that are clearly inferior to him get tortured justifications as to why they're must plays.
Play creature ramp: somberwald, rofellos, gaea's cradle, elves, etc. Cast Behemoth. Win game. Duh?
Hes fine to Natural Order too, if you have a few other creatures in play.
The fact that he isn't great for every single fatty cheat method isn't terribly relevant unless cards are suddenly bad for not fitting into every single deck now.
The fact that he isn't great for every single fatty cheat method isn't terribly relevant unless cards are suddenly bad for not fitting into every single deck now.
It's not a bad thing to want your narrow expensive spells to be good in as many decks as possible.
I actually like moldgraf monstrosity quite a bit. He is always huge and almost always gives you some advantage when hit with a doom blade. But don't get me wrong I run more fatties than most. I have t-don, and have tried elder scale wurm, sylvan primordial, and hornet queen. It is such a popular deck with my group, so I have extra fatties rotating to keep it fun.
Its really strange to me. What you're saying is so obvious, yet everyone is contorting themselves to rationalize why he isn't good enough. Meanwhile, other creatures that are clearly inferior to him get tortured justifications as to why they're must plays.
What an utterly execrable statement. Rather than anyone 'contorting' themselves, perhaps people would rather make their extremely narrow expensive cards less narrow by including ones that are at least passable in multiple decks. No-one is telling anyone they 'must play' anything... But any 8 (!) Mana card I include in my own cube shouldn't also require me to have at least two other untapped creatures to be acceptable. Hell, that's a criterion that cheaper cards than this have to satisfy. A card this expensive probably won't be hardcast and needs to be optimal for as many decks as possible.
It's cool if you want to run as a finisher for some kind of Green creature ramp deck that doesn't tap its guys for mana. Just don't insinuate that others are wrong for not running it.
Play creature ramp: somberwald, rofellos, gaea's cradle, elves, etc. Cast Behemoth. Win game. Duh?
If you're trying to get people on board with a card condescending remarks aren't going to make people want to test it, nor will it make people even want to consider your opinion.
I do agree with you that it is a lot easier to win with the card than I initially thought, it's a great card in the midrange/control control decks playing green since you can just win a board stall out of nowhere.
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Hi s2kong,
my opinion is firsto to look at the archetypes built with green, and see whether the Craterfoot could fit well or not.
For example, could see play on Mono green ramp, Gw tokens or Grull, but all depends on "cards direction": lots of evasive, or token, or mana, or fatty, or deathtouch or whatever... If a token-theme or ramp-theme is present, you'll probably see play of it.
I think is not as much effective than other cards for the intensive mana costs compared to the effect, it doesn't allow a super advantage unless:
- we control 2 or more creatures (over it)
- those creatures must be UNtapped, so forget the ramp on turn 5 with mana-creatures TAPped
- opponents isn't rushing as we do, otherwise you'll cast as blocker
Second, removing permanents or evasive/recursion is bit more efficient than pumping creatures, what you think?
I have 6 fatty creatures in green divided following the CMC curve:
A lot of people will go with Primeval Titan and Woodfall Primus first. 2nd best is Hornet Queen but still really good. Third best card depends on the person. It could be Gaea's Avenger, Avenger of Zendikar, Craterhoof Behemoth, Moldgraf Monstrosity or Pelakka Wurm. I don't run the Avenger of Zendikar in part because I already have Rampaging Baloths. When you are playing green it is better to have cards like Deranged Hermit and Hornet Queen that work good with reanimation effects. The only green creatures I play that benefit from playing extra lands is Vinelasher Kudzu and Rampaging Baloths. I could play Primeval Titan but don't feel it has to be in my cube.
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Looking to add one more green fatty as I move my unpowered cube up from 360 to 450. Currently, have Woodfall Primus and Avenger of Zendikarin there already. I was thinking about adding Terrastodon or Hornet Queen but wanted to here people's experiences on Craterhoof Behemoth. Seems like if you have a decent but stalled green board, Craterhoof would break that stalemate and should win you the game. However, I can see it as more of a win-more and doesn't have the flexibility of the other two cards mentioned.
Anyone have any experiences or thoughts on the AVR fatty?
EDIT: Also, look at its face! It's adorable.
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I don't think it is a win-more card, since it can end games on the spot that you wouldn't have won otherwise. This with only two other creatures out is an Overrun + a hasty 5/5. And since the opponent can't really see this coming, it will often outright finish them off.
I agree with calibretto that he is only really good in some kind of green ramp deck or in slower environments, where your midrange decks can count on reaching eight mana even without some acceleration. While most other fatties double up as reanimation targets, this one doesn't excel in that role.
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Maybe I'll try Craterhoof and Queen/Terrasto for a while.
EDIT: also kinda tempted to use him just because I have a foil one lying around...
Heh, I really identified with this bit.
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Craterhoof Behemoth is great in rampy midrange decks, but is not that good in reanimator and other fast cheaty decks.
I would love to see Avenger of Zendikar, next turn Craterhoof Behemoth though...
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Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
How does this guy not work well with creature acceleration? Why does it matter if the opponent has 3+ creatures?
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It does boost your other creatures as well though.
So if you have a random Wild Mongrel and 2 mana dudes, you still swing for 15 trample. I don't think that's a nonbo, but rather think they have fine synergy.
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It's not a horrible nonbo, but it definitely exists.
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But he has haste, and gets a bigger boost. It is far better to cast him off of creature acceleration than off of any other type of accel (or no accel) so I fail to see how this is an accurate statement.
I consider paying 8 mana for a 9/9 trampler with haste that becomes a 5/5 the next turn to be bad. That's not enough for 8 mana in this format (as ridiculous as it sounds). Especially when you consider how horribly it fails the terminate test if you're ramping it out early.
It may be better to cast him off of Somberwald Sage than Grim Monolith, but ramping him out early still sucks. He wants to be the big dude at the end of the game when everyone has a bunch of little guys around and you need the mother of all Overruns. That's a lot more narrow than something like Terastodon or Woodfall Primus. Yes, in the late game he does really awesome things on stalled boards, but I'm less than enthralled by the fact that if I get the nut draw and could play him on turn 4 that I'm probably better holding on to him until later. I want it to be awesome when I play my 8 drop on turn 4, not underwhelming.
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Basically if you run avenger and dislike it's average results try this out, if you don't run avenger figure out which of the two you like more of you really want another ramp target.
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Its really strange to me. What you're saying is so obvious, yet everyone is contorting themselves to rationalize why he isn't good enough. Meanwhile, other creatures that are clearly inferior to him get tortured justifications as to why they're must plays.
Play creature ramp: somberwald, rofellos, gaea's cradle, elves, etc. Cast Behemoth. Win game. Duh?
Hes fine to Natural Order too, if you have a few other creatures in play.
The fact that he isn't great for every single fatty cheat method isn't terribly relevant unless cards are suddenly bad for not fitting into every single deck now.
It's not a bad thing to want your narrow expensive spells to be good in as many decks as possible.
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What an utterly execrable statement. Rather than anyone 'contorting' themselves, perhaps people would rather make their extremely narrow expensive cards less narrow by including ones that are at least passable in multiple decks. No-one is telling anyone they 'must play' anything... But any 8 (!) Mana card I include in my own cube shouldn't also require me to have at least two other untapped creatures to be acceptable. Hell, that's a criterion that cheaper cards than this have to satisfy. A card this expensive probably won't be hardcast and needs to be optimal for as many decks as possible.
It's cool if you want to run as a finisher for some kind of Green creature ramp deck that doesn't tap its guys for mana. Just don't insinuate that others are wrong for not running it.
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If you're trying to get people on board with a card condescending remarks aren't going to make people want to test it, nor will it make people even want to consider your opinion.
I do agree with you that it is a lot easier to win with the card than I initially thought, it's a great card in the midrange/control control decks playing green since you can just win a board stall out of nowhere.
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I currently have my cube at around 385 Cards and got the cube down to 3 6cc+ cards.
1. Rampaging Baloths
2. Pelakka Wurm
3. Hornet Queen
A lot of people will go with Primeval Titan and Woodfall Primus first. 2nd best is Hornet Queen but still really good. Third best card depends on the person. It could be Gaea's Avenger, Avenger of Zendikar, Craterhoof Behemoth, Moldgraf Monstrosity or Pelakka Wurm. I don't run the Avenger of Zendikar in part because I already have Rampaging Baloths. When you are playing green it is better to have cards like Deranged Hermit and Hornet Queen that work good with reanimation effects. The only green creatures I play that benefit from playing extra lands is Vinelasher Kudzu and Rampaging Baloths. I could play Primeval Titan but don't feel it has to be in my cube.