I'm just stopping by this thread to support Nylon.
Persist reads, in part, "return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it."
Simply because this ability includes the word "with" does not make it a replacement effect. The rules are quite clear that a replacement effect must follow an exact structure: "614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . .” are replacement effects."
Persist does not follow that exact structure. It looks similar, but similarity does not equal exactitude. If the rules meant persist to be a replacement effect, it would follow that exact structure. It does not.
what confuses me is that i can understand that tatterkite and melira's keepers work outside of the battlefield - they reference themselves and therefore work in all zones - but melira, sylvok outcast references 'creatures you control,' and melira is only a creature you control when it's on the battlefield.
i don't care which way the ruling is, but it would make more sense to me if she entered the battlefield with a minus counter.
Persist is indeed not a replacement affect. It does modify how a card entres play, but cards which modify how a card enter play are not always replacement effects. IE Grimoire of the Dead's second ability is an activated ability, and does not create any replacement effects. Persist is a triggered ability which does not create any replacement effects either.
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Nylon is just wrong. I don't know how to more clearly show it, but the comp rules themselves define an object entering the battlefield with a counter on it as a form of placing a counter on that permanent, and Melira prevents counters from being able to be placed on creatures you control, which could also be read indirectly as Melira giving all your creatures "Counters can't be placed on this creature." It doesn't matter whether she's self-referencial or not.
You can go ahead and continue believing what you want to believe, but don't be surprised if a similar situation happens during a tournament you're participating in and you're wrong.
EDIT: Again, you're wrong. One of the kinds of replacement effects described in the comp rules talks about effects such as "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with...", which is precisely the effect that persist has, making it a replacement effect. That's elementary level deduction, and irrefutable.
614.1c Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.
614.4. Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
...
Example: Orb of Dreams is an artifact that says "Permanents enter the battlefield tapped." It won't affect itself, so Orb of Dreams enters the battlefield untapped.
As a result, if Melira is persisted, she will enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it due to 614.12. Tatterkite and Melira's Keepers will not, since they have static effects which affect only themselves, and Melira herself will have a counter since her effect affects a general set of permanents which includes herself, so she is not on the battlefield in time for her static effect to kick in before the replacement effect that modifies "enters the battlefield" with "enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it" has already applied.
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Melira's ability isn't a replacement effect, so everything you quoted is irrelevant in that sense. Her ability doesn't say anything about how she enters the battlefield. It says that counters can't be placed on creatures you control, which is a static ability that alters the characteristics of all your creatures.
Actually, it is a replacement effect. Melira's effect can be read as "If -1/-1 counters would be placed on a creature you control, they instead aren't."
Just like other "this enters the battlefield with..." effects.
In any case, 614.4 still addresses this. Melira's effect only applies while she's on the battlefield. The game can't look back in time and say "Melira's going to be on the battlefield, she can't get the counter." The game has to look at the board state at the time Melira would enter the battlefield. At this point, Melira is not on the battlefield, there is no static effect stopping counters from being on your creatures, and she will get the -1/-1 counter from Persist.
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The part you bolded in 614.12 talks specifically about effects that modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. Whether or not Melira's ability is a replacement effect, which I'm quite certain it's not, rule 614.12 is irrelevant to her ability.
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Persist reads, in part, "return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it."
Simply because this ability includes the word "with" does not make it a replacement effect. The rules are quite clear that a replacement effect must follow an exact structure: "614.1c Effects that read “[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ,” or “[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . .” are replacement effects."
Persist does not follow that exact structure. It looks similar, but similarity does not equal exactitude. If the rules meant persist to be a replacement effect, it would follow that exact structure. It does not.
Persist is not a replacement effect.
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i don't care which way the ruling is, but it would make more sense to me if she entered the battlefield with a minus counter.
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You can go ahead and continue believing what you want to believe, but don't be surprised if a similar situation happens during a tournament you're participating in and you're wrong.
EDIT: Again, you're wrong. One of the kinds of replacement effects described in the comp rules talks about effects such as "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with...", which is precisely the effect that persist has, making it a replacement effect. That's elementary level deduction, and irrefutable.
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Decks:
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:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
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As a result, if Melira is persisted, she will enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it due to 614.12. Tatterkite and Melira's Keepers will not, since they have static effects which affect only themselves, and Melira herself will have a counter since her effect affects a general set of permanents which includes herself, so she is not on the battlefield in time for her static effect to kick in before the replacement effect that modifies "enters the battlefield" with "enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it" has already applied.
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Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
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Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
Just like other "this enters the battlefield with..." effects.
In any case, 614.4 still addresses this. Melira's effect only applies while she's on the battlefield. The game can't look back in time and say "Melira's going to be on the battlefield, she can't get the counter." The game has to look at the board state at the time Melira would enter the battlefield. At this point, Melira is not on the battlefield, there is no static effect stopping counters from being on your creatures, and she will get the -1/-1 counter from Persist.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
My art blog
Claims:
The kicker variant in WWK will be "Kicker without a kicked effect." - proven wrong Jan 2010 : 2 wrongs
Decks:
:symu::symb: Bloodchief Ascension - Modern
:symb::symr: Rakdos, the Defiler - EDH
:symu::symb::symw: Sharuum the Hegemon - EDH
:symw::symu::symb: Zur the Enchanter - EDH
This is not a replacement effect. It simply says that something can't happen. Don't treat it as one.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.