[Primer] WUR Delver

[Hunger]

GY hate can also stop them from getting counters on PA which most builds seem to be playing. If they get two counters on a PA it's probably game.

[HomelandZecurity]

Originally Posted by Hunger

GY hate can also stop them from getting counters on PA which most builds seem to be playing. If they get two counters on a PA it's probably game.

For those unfamiliar, PA = Pyromancer's Ascension.

Suffice it to say that a few GY hate cards definitely help against Storm, but you really need some sort of disruption as well, preferably counterspells and Cliques. Also, despite what some people may think, an early Kor Firewalker can make their life miserable, putting you out of storm reach before they really get started. (some people seem to think that they can just generate a 25+ storm count with ease, but in my experience this doesn't happen reliably for them.)

This is one of the reasons I'm a bit reluctant to run the Gifts package in paper form, as you don't have many free slots to dedicate to decks like this. I'm still unsure if Reanimating Iona on Red really works against them.

On that note though, I'm rethinking Izzet Charm a bit. For those running the Gifts package in the Side, I would recommend testing 2-3 Charms in the 75 somewhere to provide flexibility and help set up the combo. I also think that if you're running Gifts, it's best to just max out on them, rather than trying to just squeeze in 3 and hope to draw it when you need it. It's a known quantity now, and you're better off just getting to it as often as possible.

[Rhinne]

I know this is a bit old, but i have started playing with a lynx-less build on paper after being sucsessful with it online. the list uses delver as its main, and backs it up with more instants and a full set of scepters.
To further exploit the stick, i got some interesting cards i on the sb i can bring in to add a little spice, one of the most useful ones being research//development.

Since the deck revolves around scepter and its interaction with delver so much(you need many instants to use botn delver and scepter efficiently) i was considering at least one academy ruins to get back destroyed artifacts.

The bighest problem i see now is a deck with a heavy artifact hate plan, since i dont run lynxes and most of my sb is dedicated to problem decks and stick fodder, i dont really have a plan B in case the scepter is useless.
I have considered a gifst pack, but im not sure.
Any ideas?

[HomelandZecurity]

Originally Posted by Rhinne

The bighest problem i see now is a deck with a heavy artifact hate plan, since i dont run lynxes and most of my sb is dedicated to problem decks and stick fodder, i dont really have a plan B in case the scepter is useless.
I have considered a gifst pack, but im not sure.
Any ideas?

List?

In general though, I think you've already identified the issues with having Scepter as your plan A, especially if you aren't going a full control route. Scepter is too easily destroyed, and when that happens it's a real blowout for you. Also, cutting Lynx makes Delver worse, since you can't just bait with the kitty and then drop the better threat on turn 2 (with Serum Visions mana to boot). Having only Delver as your turn 1 threat means he's going to eat removal a lot more often. But if you insist...

If anything, I think you'd want to try out the 5-color version with Tribal Flames, since at least that is bonkers if you get one on a Scepter (And full Domain). You could run a few Goyfs to fill in the blanks on threats too. You could definitely be on the Gifts plan post-board if you wanted to, and the one upside to Scepter in that build is that it makes your horrible mana base much easier to deal with. But at the very least, if you stay in straight WUR, you need to be running some number of Spell Pierces to protect your stick, and as a way to fill in the gap in your curve. Maybe even 1-2 Apostle's Blessing? I'm reaching a bit there though....

Cutting a 1-drop for a 2-drop is tough news in Modern, especially when Scepter is closer to a 4-drop. If anything, I'd recommend trying out an actual WUR Control build with the scepters as your plan A, but with a lot more disruption and a better plan B. There is probably a playable midrange list in there somewhere, but I think it would differ greatly from the WUR Delver lists we've been seeing succeed online.

Picture the difference in a non-Delver opener. Turn 1 Lynx vs. Turn 2 Scepter on Helix. By turn 3, the lynx has done 4-8 damage, and you've played other spells too. If they removed it, oh well you only spent 1 mana and are even on card parity. Meanwhile, your Scepter has done 3 damage only (or a 6pt swing), and you've spent 4 times as much mana, and twice as many cards. You haven't had much time to cast anything other than a Serum Visions and maybe a Remand or another Removal spell, and in order to kill your opponent you'll have to spend 2 mana for the rest of the game.

I know you like Scepter, and so do I, but I don't quite understand why you want to leave the Lynx behind? It's no less consistent than Delver, and it doesn't force you to tapout when you don't want to, or to cry when you see an Ancient Grudge or Qasali Pridemage or Maelstrom Pulse.

[Rhinne]

My real issue with lynx is its maintenance costs, AKA land dropping. I really dont want to have to drop a land every time i want to attack, and if i dont, lynx is a totally worthless 0/1. The second problem is that, while he usually gets 4 damage or so on T2, he usually doesnt hit again on T3 since hes blocked or removed, and on T4 hes damage cap starts getting lower.

If I do draw a land and drop it, i didnt draw a more useful card, like a threat (geist, snapcaster) or burn/counters, only to add 2~4 damage, at most.
I know that if all the good players play 4, then i must sound like an idiot for cutting him, but i feel hes not doing enough for me.
Also, there arent many things MB on G1 that can destroy the stick, except for maelstrom pulse, and quasali.

I cant give a list just yet, since im running the deck on lanterns IQ, but after im done there i will post it, together with all the feedback on what did work and what didnt, etc.

I totally get why lynxs is good, but i dont like his maintenance cost, while delver only need to flip once to be a threat. If delver eats removal trhough my counters, then so be it, i just spent 1 mana on him, and meanwhile my spells do the rest of the work.
And i cant stress this enough, scepter turn 2 with helix, bolt or jet, unless answered in 2~3 turns is usually such a huge edge that wins the game on its own.

[Hazzard]

Originally Posted by HomelandZecurity

List?

In general though, I think you've already identified the issues with having Scepter as your plan A, especially if you aren't going a full control route. Scepter is too easily destroyed, and when that happens it's a real blowout for you. Also, cutting Lynx makes Delver worse, since you can't just bait with the kitty and then drop the better threat on turn 2 (with Serum Visions mana to boot). Having only Delver as your turn 1 threat means he's going to eat removal a lot more often. But if you insist...

If anything, I think you'd want to try out the 5-color version with Tribal Flames, since at least that is bonkers if you get one on a Scepter (And full Domain). You could run a few Goyfs to fill in the blanks on threats too. You could definitely be on the Gifts plan post-board if you wanted to, and the one upside to Scepter in that build is that it makes your horrible mana base much easier to deal with. But at the very least, if you stay in straight WUR, you need to be running some number of Spell Pierces to protect your stick, and as a way to fill in the gap in your curve. Maybe even 1-2 Apostle's Blessing? I'm reaching a bit there though....

Cutting a 1-drop for a 2-drop is tough news in Modern, especially when Scepter is closer to a 4-drop. If anything, I'd recommend trying out an actual WUR Control build with the scepters as your plan A, but with a lot more disruption and a better plan B. There is probably a playable midrange list in there somewhere, but I think it would differ greatly from the WUR Delver lists we've been seeing succeed online.

Picture the difference in a non-Delver opener. Turn 1 Lynx vs. Turn 2 Scepter on Helix. By turn 3, the lynx has done 4-8 damage, and you've played other spells too. If they removed it, oh well you only spent 1 mana and are even on card parity. Meanwhile, your Scepter has done 3 damage only (or a 6pt swing), and you've spent 4 times as much mana, and twice as many cards. You haven't had much time to cast anything other than a Serum Visions and maybe a Remand or another Removal spell, and in order to kill your opponent you'll have to spend 2 mana for the rest of the game.

I know you like Scepter, and so do I, but I don't quite understand why you want to leave the Lynx behind? It's no less consistent than Delver, and it doesn't force you to tapout when you don't want to, or to cry when you see an Ancient Grudge or Qasali Pridemage or Maelstrom Pulse.

Can't use Tribal Flames on Scepter.

[lsho]

TribalWUR is super strong. Just came back last Sat in 3 games I should absolutely have not won with the standard build and snagged a win against Tron, TribalZoo and the mirror. Unreal.

[capitacom]

I have been testing the five color version as well and it has so much going for it.

The issue with steppe lynx is on the one hand you want spells for delver and you want to maximize your drawing of useful stuff, while steppe lynx wants you to draw lands. Dissynergy. Cutting lynx allows you to cut down on the number of lands you play and your curve, allowing you to maximize your burn potential and your chances of flipping delver. You do need goblin guide if you cut lynx though.

[HomelandZecurity]

Good call Hazzard, I forgot Scepter is instants only.

Capitacom, I think you're overstating the "dissynergy" here. The only time that would be a problem is when you have both Lynx and Delver in play, no lands in hand, and your Serum Vision reveals: land, spell. You have a choice then whether to flip your Delver or make Lynx a threat next turn. Outside of that situation, you don't actually have any control over what frequency you draw spells and lands aside from building your deck with more of them. Unless the build changes considerably, we are always going to have around 22 lands and 22 spells, which gives you a relatively equal chance of making either of them a threat. The difference being, you can have hands that are "Lynx, Fetch, Fetch, Plains" which guarantee you that the Kitty will be deadly if left unanswered. Since you do have control over your mulligans, I would actually say this makes Lynx a more consistent Turn 1 threat for us. When you happen to draw both in your opener, you just play whichever threat is better for the situation on turn 1 (usually Lynx). By the time Lynx has ran out of steam, you can probably flip your Delver.

Even if we had Brainstorm, I still wouldn't call it dissynergy. You would keep the fetchlands and put spells on top of your deck. They require different types of cards, but in different zones, so they aren't causing you to do anything you wouldn't be doing anyway.

I'll test the TribalWUR build, but as I said before, I understand that it is very powerful. The problem is consistency. If you really have had no issues with mana (which I can't fathom since I have issues with the mana in regular WUR quite frequently), than by all means keep jamming 5 colors. But I would imagine at some point you'll have a run with the deck featuring all of the off color lands at all the wrong times. And when your opponent Spreading Seas or Molten Rains you, it's going to make it worse.

[Valkyries]

Does someone have a decklist to share for the 5 color version? I'm curious what the changes are.

Also I've been having tons of success with this decks, currently using 2 scepter and 2 spell pierce as my final 4. Rest of the list is identical to what homeland has in his primer. My sb is also way more consistent. I passed on the gifts package, simply don't like it. felt very clunky and the times I did get iona in play the game was already over. Never felt like I needed it so I went with what I like instead.

Current sb has molten rain for tron and 5 color decks, surgical, sts, and couple volcanic fallout which have really come in handy against aggro or token decks.

I finally cut one land and went with 21 overall, but I may quickly regret that and go back to 22.

Lastly lynx has been awesome for me... I understand the concerns with him but I would need a very over powering argument to consider cutting him. He wins games all on his own and I know with full certainty I wouldn't be as consistent without it. also imo goblin guide is a downgrade in this deck. I tried it and really hated it.... I was feeding them tempo and cards, good players/decks will tear you apart with that kind of advantage.

[Rhinne]

I think i would prefer vexing devil over goblin guide, anyday. But they are both inferior to lynx, and god knows i hate lynx.

[Hunger]

Originally Posted by Valkyries

Does someone have a decklist to share for the 5 color version? I'm curious what the changes are.

Here is a 3-1 list from an MTGO Modern daily:

Deck
Land (22) 4 Arid Mesa 1 Blood Crypt 1 Breeding Pool 1 Hallowed Fountain 1 Island 2 Marsh Flats 2 Misty Rainforest 1 Plains 1 Sacred Foundry 4 Scalding Tarn 1 Steam Vents 1 Stomping Ground 1 Temple Garden 1 Watery Grave	Creatures (15) 4 Delver of Secrets 3 Geist of Saint Traft 4 Snapcaster Mage 4 Tarmogoyf Spells (23) 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Lightning Helix 4 Path to Exile 2 Sleight of Hand 2 Spell Pierce 3 Spell Snare 4 Tribal Flames	Sideboard 2 Ancient Grudge 2 Annul 2 Combust 1 Disenchant 2 Rest for the Weary 1 Spell Pierce 3 Thoughtseize 2 Threads of Disloyalty

Basically making use of the Shocklands to hit all the land types for full Domain on Tribal Flames.

[Rhinne]

Deck
4 Delver of Secrets 3 Geist of Saint Traft 4 Snapcaster Mage 4 Lightning Helix 4 Lightning Bolt 4 Serum Visions 3 Path to Exile 4 Remand 2 Magma Jet 2 Spell Pierce 2 Research // Development 4 Isochron Scepter Lands (20) 4 Scalding Tarn 2 Steam Vents 2 Misty Rainforest 1 Island 1 Hallowed Fountain 2 Seachrome Coast 4 Arid Mesa 1 Sacred Foundry 1 Mountain 1 Eiganjo Castle 1 Plains	SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens SB: 2 Combust SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall SB: 2 Annul SB: 4 Steppe Lynx SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements

Well, this is the list i went with in the IQ, unfortunately i had to face Jund, one of (if not the only one) deck that comes equipped with artifact hate MB, except maybe for naya pod. I ended up losing 2-1 on a really close game 3 to jund.
I felt a bit unlucky on game 3, when i had control of the game and he bolted a flipped delver and liliana´d my geist with just 2 cards in hand, and then proceeded to topdeck a bob and 2 goyfs to kill me while i drew 3 lands, but overall the deck performed well in testing.

Im still devating on the 21 land, i know lynx needs them, but im not really convinced i want to go that way yet.
As always, a T2 helix or research/development tends to be game unless answered inmediatly, thats what happened on game 2.

[Staxxor]

Anyone tried squeezing 1-2 equipments with 1-2 steelshaper's gift in the non-lynx with scepter version? I was thinking maybe pike or basilisk collar since they're cheap to cast/use and can flip the creature war? I also hate playing lynxes!

[HomelandZecurity]

Originally Posted by Staxxor

Anyone tried squeezing 1-2 equipments with 1-2 steelshaper's gift in the non-lynx with scepter version? I was thinking maybe pike or basilisk collar since they're cheap to cast/use and can flip the creature war? I also hate playing lynxes!

Another Kitty-hater, eh? What am I going to do with all you outlaws!

Anyway, Equipment is good, but my worry would be that if you go down that road, you are starting to really get into Midrange-land, and if you go there, you're going to be competing with Jund, U/W Aggro variants, POD, and a variety of other decks. Basically, if you aren't better than U/W Blade type decks, it's not worth the slots. Snapcaster with a Sword is much less scary than Restoration Angel with a Sword.

However, I do think it's worth testing. For starters, I'd only run Basilisk collar if you have at LEAST 3-4 Grim Lavamancers and/or Cunning Sparkmages. Beyond that, the Collar doesn't help you race nearly enough, and the Deathtouch isn't all that useful. You're still going to lose the Geist if they block it.

I'd probably go with a 1/1/1 split, being 1 Steelshaper's Gift, 1 SoWAP, and 1 SOFAF. I'd also recommend adding a land (23), and maybe another large threat, like 2-3 Restoration Angels or Vendilion Cliques.

SoWAP is your way to beat other WUR decks, and also just race since you don't have Lynx. SoFAF helps against Pod, Jund, and Control/Combo, while also letting you cast your spells in addition to using your Scepters.

Swords are sweet, but keep in mind that if you commit to them too much, all your high-impact cards outside of Delver/Geist are vulnerable to Artifact hate in Games 2/3. If your opponent draws just 1 Ancient Grudge to your Scepter/Steelshaper/Snapcaster draw, you basically just lose.