Sorry, original thread got archived because it mentioned the rot...errr it got archived, here goes again with some editing if its ok with the mods:
Looking for comments & tips (Specially from people who test the deck), as well as a side board.
Background:
This started as a Door to Nothingness deck. In order to get it into mid game I had to pack the deck with removal, so I went creatureless to evade running out of removal spells mid game. Went through removal testing, after a couple wins with the door I noticed I was getting more wins via Devil's Play. Took out the door and started testing a slow creatureless burning deck but after a couple wins it was not doing much use of its mana while digging for the devils so I added Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. It worked great, with just enough removal and ramp to get him into play safe, but Nicol is too popular, too predictable and expected and my opponent most probably has a way to deal with it easier than with Staff of Nin so I decided to go planeswalkerless as well. Here is what I have been toying with:
Main card: Staff of Nin. Love these kind of cards that beg to be built around, so I did, and I love it. Did some research on staff decks, didn't found much other than decks using it as a 1 or 2 off, but no decks built around it, and none was creatureless so I found nothing helpful. The only suggestions I found where that it needs a slow deck and that "it will not see standard play in such a fast format". So I built a slow but steady deck that packs lots of bullets for a fast format, it may not be Tier 1 (yet) and may never get there, but it can go toe-to-toe with any deck and its just devilishly fun to play it.
Win con: Devil's Play/Staff of Nin. The deck packs just enough effective removal to get you to mid game against most decent Tier decks with a decent draw, once there you set up a staff and start picking at your opponent while drawing two cards per turn into more staves/removal/devil's play. Basically after a staff is set my hand fills with removal spells faster than I use them while loading up on lands for Devil plays. The fun part of the deck is devil playing the opponent to just enough life to actually finish off with the staves even if you have enough mana to finish with the devil play.
Rule 1: Creatureless, no matter what. No time to mount assaults or try silly creature combos. The staves need a dedicated slow deck that can dig/ramp while keeping the board as clear as possible in order to get into mid game where it sets up shop and steadily outpaces your opponent. There is also the plus of disabling cards in the opponent's deck by not having creatures, always helps.
Rule 2: Only cards from M13, DKA, ISD, AVR. Yes I know about all the good cards that currently would do wonders in the deck (BSZ, DoJ, etc.), feel free to make suggestion lists with those cards and even test, but for personal reasons I'll keep my deck version to those sets.
Early notable weaknesses:
Most include soon to go cards/combos like Sorin combo.
Fast burn decks.
Early tokens/unattended creature.
Most infect decks (the Turn 2 kill ones).
Your opinion is welcomed!
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Answers to replies in previous thread:
Quote from phashowned »
You never splash green for mana fixing, that's just a rule. I think those spots would be better as artifacts that give mana and making it just Oros colored control.
Creatureless sounds great but cards like Lingering Souls are the kinds of cards that give decks like this the time they need and is a win condition on its own, really. And good with faithless looting.
My only G is abundant growth which on T1 gives me access to all my spells. The other is farseek which ramps and fixes (mostly finds a mountain or the second swamp for barters). The current mana artifacts either cost more than 2 (Vessel) or will soon be useless (Talisman/sphere). G wasn't splashed in, I first put in the G for draw/ramp/fix and then splashed for spells as needed, which is why it ended being 4C (so far). There is one artifact producing mana that im looking forward, but cant talk about that yet or thread gets archived. I don't know, I haven't had much problems with the current build which is why im posting it here to finish polishing it.
Lingering souls would mean 3-4 spots on the deck, if I give that space to lingering souls Im sure I will run out of removal at some critical point and its no fun playing a lingering souls against an elesh norn or a griselbrand or something nastier, I rather play a tribute to hunger or something that can keep my opponent from even attacking rather than trying to block with 1/1s. Also, I don't need the win via 1/1s, if I can set the staff and get past mid game the Devil Plays backed by the staves do their thing pretty well. Besides, playing creatures, even token ones, will enable cards in my opponent's hand. The deck could be tested with the card, but I doubt it will help more than it will hurt.
Quote from SuperSeed »
-1 Tribute to Hunger
+1 Rolling Tremblor
-1 Barter in Blood
+1 Terminus
Helps with token issues ^
Will do some testing with Rolling temblor, seems great for sideboard along with bonfires. thanks.
What no faith in the staves? You will see... hehe anyways.
Sideboard ideas:
Currently I am working on a sideboard with just answers to weaknesses, but I want something rather unexpected from the SB.
Since the deck relies on the staff, it is vulnerable to Artifact hate after SB. So I was thinking about making a dual deck, as in switch out the staves and lotuses for something else non-artifact. The idea is to have two different decks out of one primer (B/R/w/g burn-control???) to eliminate predictability and catch my opponent completely off guard.
I could go with Planeswalkers since my opponent will probably switch removal for artifact hate letting me play planeswalkers carelessly.
I could maybe even play with the idea of creatures or tokens since my opponent will surely SB his removal spells to deal with the staves.
Enchantments? More ramp/draw into faster burn? Counters?
ugh please redo your Deck tags so the number comes BEFORE the 'x' that way it makes links. I can tell you right now, this deck needs a lot of work, and TBH, it may not be that good of a plan to begin with. But I'll get to that. A few thoughts...
As a guy who plays a creatureless Grixis deck, I can tell you right now 3 Terminus will not cut it for you on a consistent basis. You said a weakness is fast aggro decks like Infect so i think if you increase the number of sweepers to 6-7 you will be fine. Your running red so adding 3 Whipflare should be great for you. It only costs 2 mana so if they come out super fast you can play it turn 3 and pretty much wipe out everything they got.
Your mana base needs serious work as well. In my grixis deck I run 12 dual color lands and some say thats still not enough. I also run 25 lands because I also use Staff of Nin and other mana hungry permanents. You run 8 dual lands and only 21 lands total. That's not going to cut it even with mana ramp. That's not to say that you will never get you Staff of Nin on the field with it. You will. However, you can do it way more consistently if you run at least 24 lands.
Lastly, I'd also just like to point out my view on the central piece of your deck, the Staff. I cannot tell you enough how much I love that card. It is a powerful card that helps give you advantage on the board and advantage through card draw. It is a wonderful way to help you execute other strategies, but the Staff, by itself, is not going to win you games. The only other way to win that I see is Devil's Play and for all you know you may have to use it for removal so your opponent doesn't kill you. I just don't see this deck killing your opponent before your opponent kills you on a regular basis. Dont get me wrong, Staff is great, but it's not a card you build a deck around.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current standard decks:
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Once RTR hits, you'll certainly get a lot of new stuff to play around with.
Abrupt Decay/Dreadbore is great removal in your colors, Rakdos' Return may be useful, Chromatic Lantern will be extremely great for manafixing/rampint, and if you decide to cut green, or just go five color, you can splash blue for Supreme Verdict... I have no clue whether that would actually work, but with Chromatic Lantern, it seems plausible.
In the Standard forum, new card discussion is only allowed in this forum. Warning/Infraction issued.
-mabberman
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
No bonfire screams why to me. Also possibly a couple sideboars sever the bloodline. Other sb should be focused on anti control and grafdiggers cage. So i would say some lilianna of the veil and some other possible discard.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Bolas fits great in this deck, I need to test it with the current mana base. Im not worried about after SB word spreading, mainly because I don't play FNMs or anything, this is only a fun hobbie for me.
So far I can deal with inkmoth through the staff and tribute to hungers, luckily he will be gone next month, though it hasn't been much of a problem.
Burn is still a threat though, the deck wants the game to go long, and that gives burn decks time to get to their spells, so far tribute to hunger helps some with life gain. On the third pic posted, I got +10 by tributing 2 phyrexian obliterators. Had to get rid of four of them in that game without loosing a single permanent to its ability.
@Goropeza
3 Terminus has proven good so far, terminus is hardly the card that usually gets me out of trouble. Its good when things get out of hand, but so long as i get my land drops, I can keep removing creatures turn after turn (Theoretically speaking). Against agro/weenie/G.ramp/zombie/etc decks, rolling temblor is proving itself worthy. Will check out whipflare.
Mana base has been fixed, how does it look now? Still 21 lands though, why? Because I need removal on a consistent basis, as long as I keep removing creatures there is no rush to get to the 6 land mark for Nin. I don't know, sometimes I find myself even discarding lands to faithless looting. Would need to test with a higher mana count to see how smooth it runs, but so far it works great.
The staff by itself does win games, look at the pics I posted, forget the devil play, just look at my hand, there is so much removal in my hand after a Staff is set that keeping board control is easy, specially with lots of flashback spells. The staff can keep pinging all day long, but it rarely happens, because usually a devil play ends the game 2-4 turns after the staff. Now, I do use Devil Play for removal without a second thought, because its got flashback and I got 4 of them, after a staff is set getting to the rest of the DPs is easy so I don't hesitate to kill a birds of paradise on T2 with a DP. My aim at all times is to keep the board clear. I don't know, I built a deck around this card and I love it so far, if it weren't working great I would have already started building something else, but I think this thing has potential, cant wait to see what rotation brings.
I love the deck so far, Im working on 5 mono color versions for it just to see what I come up with, but thats another subject.
@Pickleishopeless
Bonfire was maindeck, but it never did great things for me, and usually it got stuck in hand since the field is usally empty when I draw it for miracle. Dunno, deck works better without it so far, I Sbed it in case I come up against heavy token decks.
@Moz.the.blessed
4 Devil Plays is a must, and I do use it for spot removal if needed rather than for direct damage. It can kill small and big creatures. I only use it for direct damage when I got enough lands to kill in 1-2 turns (T1 cast, T2 flashback for kill) the rest of the time its just another removal spell. But still, 4 is a must, have tested with less and its no good relying just on the staff for damage, too slow and could give my opponent time for some miracle.
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Well thats it so far, will keep testing, with current deck list things are running much better.
Hardest matchup so far is U control, not because I cant deal with it, it is usually 50/50 depending on who makes the one and only mistake in the game, but it is the hardest matchup because how long a match takes.
Easiest matchup so far: G decks, specially mono G. I smile inside when my opponent plays its first land and its a forest : )
Pic1: Mid game pic, to show how the deck can hold its own on just 5 lands.
Pic2: End of the same game, to show how the deck outpaces the opponent after a staff.
Pic3: Killed Arbor elf off devil play, Terminus for 3 undying creatures, ORinged Wolfir, Then Terminus for 2 more creatures, thats why his grave is almost empty.
Pic4: Notice his graveyard full of creatures, had to use & flashback my first 2 devil plays and Rolling Temblor. Oringed his two key enchantments. Then ended with a 15 dmg Devil Play followed by a tap of the staff.
All kills via staff : )
Now to keep testing, pardon double posts.
EDIT: Pic5: U/B Heartless Summoning. 2 wurmcoils (and 4 babies), 2 Grand architects and 2 Myr Superions down the drain. Notice Devil Play on grave, had just hit for 11 (At that stage it could be flashbacked for 9 to kill for 20 if my opponent has not been gaining life).
Well a couple of cards that would probably help are Charmbreaker Devils and a set of Whipflares. Olivia Voldaren would also wreck people in this deck if you ever untap with her its pretty much over lol. I also really like Batterskull. I'm building a similar Grixis deck but I only run one Staff and use Karn Liberated but to each his own lol
I second the usage of olivia here, as that could decrease your usage of plays on opponents creatures after board. It also allows you to steal your opponents creatures.
Not sure you have run into anything of the sort, but you could run increasing confusion as a 1 or two of in the side to combat infinite lifegain or something along those lines. Other sideboard materials I would consider include something strong with lifelink, a nicol bolas just because, and torpor orbs to combat enters the battlefield triggers. You could also try elixir of immortality to get some key cards back in your library, though I'm not sure you would want to.
Looking for comments & tips (Specially from people who test the deck), as well as a side board.
Background:
This started as a Door to Nothingness deck. In order to get it into mid game I had to pack the deck with removal, so I went creatureless to evade running out of removal spells mid game. Went through removal testing, after a couple wins with the door I noticed I was getting more wins via Devil's Play. Took out the door and started testing a slow creatureless burning deck but after a couple wins it was not doing much use of its mana while digging for the devils so I added Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. It worked great, with just enough removal and ramp to get him into play safe, but Nicol is too popular, too predictable and expected and my opponent most probably has a way to deal with it easier than with Staff of Nin so I decided to go planeswalkerless as well. Here is what I have been toying with:
Main card: Staff of Nin. Love these kind of cards that beg to be built around, so I did, and I love it. Did some research on staff decks, didn't found much other than decks using it as a 1 or 2 off, but no decks built around it, and none was creatureless so I found nothing helpful. The only suggestions I found where that it needs a slow deck and that "it will not see standard play in such a fast format". So I built a slow but steady deck that packs lots of bullets for a fast format, it may not be Tier 1 (yet) and may never get there, but it can go toe-to-toe with any deck and its just devilishly fun to play it.
Win con: Devil's Play/Staff of Nin. The deck packs just enough effective removal to get you to mid game against most decent Tier decks with a decent draw, once there you set up a staff and start picking at your opponent while drawing two cards per turn into more staves/removal/devil's play. Basically after a staff is set my hand fills with removal spells faster than I use them while loading up on lands for Devil plays. The fun part of the deck is devil playing the opponent to just enough life to actually finish off with the staves even if you have enough mana to finish with the devil play.
Rule 1: Creatureless, no matter what. No time to mount assaults or try silly creature combos. The staves need a dedicated slow deck that can dig/ramp while keeping the board as clear as possible in order to get into mid game where it sets up shop and steadily outpaces your opponent. There is also the plus of disabling cards in the opponent's deck by not having creatures, always helps.
Rule 2: Only cards from M13, DKA, ISD, AVR. Yes I know about all the good cards that currently would do wonders in the deck (BSZ, DoJ, etc.), feel free to make suggestion lists with those cards and even test, but for personal reasons I'll keep my deck version to those sets.
Early notable weaknesses:
Most include soon to go cards/combos like Sorin combo.
Fast burn decks.
Early tokens/unattended creature.
Most infect decks (the Turn 2 kill ones).
Your opinion is welcomed!
--------------------
Answers to replies in previous thread:
My only G is abundant growth which on T1 gives me access to all my spells. The other is farseek which ramps and fixes (mostly finds a mountain or the second swamp for barters). The current mana artifacts either cost more than 2 (Vessel) or will soon be useless (Talisman/sphere). G wasn't splashed in, I first put in the G for draw/ramp/fix and then splashed for spells as needed, which is why it ended being 4C (so far). There is one artifact producing mana that im looking forward, but cant talk about that yet or thread gets archived. I don't know, I haven't had much problems with the current build which is why im posting it here to finish polishing it.
Lingering souls would mean 3-4 spots on the deck, if I give that space to lingering souls Im sure I will run out of removal at some critical point and its no fun playing a lingering souls against an elesh norn or a griselbrand or something nastier, I rather play a tribute to hunger or something that can keep my opponent from even attacking rather than trying to block with 1/1s. Also, I don't need the win via 1/1s, if I can set the staff and get past mid game the Devil Plays backed by the staves do their thing pretty well. Besides, playing creatures, even token ones, will enable cards in my opponent's hand. The deck could be tested with the card, but I doubt it will help more than it will hurt.
Will do some testing with Rolling temblor, seems great for sideboard along with bonfires. thanks.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Sideboard ideas:
Currently I am working on a sideboard with just answers to weaknesses, but I want something rather unexpected from the SB.
Since the deck relies on the staff, it is vulnerable to Artifact hate after SB. So I was thinking about making a dual deck, as in switch out the staves and lotuses for something else non-artifact. The idea is to have two different decks out of one primer (B/R/w/g burn-control???) to eliminate predictability and catch my opponent completely off guard.
I could go with Planeswalkers since my opponent will probably switch removal for artifact hate letting me play planeswalkers carelessly.
I could maybe even play with the idea of creatures or tokens since my opponent will surely SB his removal spells to deal with the staves.
Enchantments? More ramp/draw into faster burn? Counters?
Looking for original ideas.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
You need some way to deal with Inkmoths after siding out Staff. You also need a way to cope with Bonfires and other burn.
And Caravan Vigil is much better with all your removal. Stock them in your hand to chain them out.
As a guy who plays a creatureless Grixis deck, I can tell you right now 3 Terminus will not cut it for you on a consistent basis. You said a weakness is fast aggro decks like Infect so i think if you increase the number of sweepers to 6-7 you will be fine. Your running red so adding 3 Whipflare should be great for you. It only costs 2 mana so if they come out super fast you can play it turn 3 and pretty much wipe out everything they got.
Your mana base needs serious work as well. In my grixis deck I run 12 dual color lands and some say thats still not enough. I also run 25 lands because I also use Staff of Nin and other mana hungry permanents. You run 8 dual lands and only 21 lands total. That's not going to cut it even with mana ramp. That's not to say that you will never get you Staff of Nin on the field with it. You will. However, you can do it way more consistently if you run at least 24 lands.
Lastly, I'd also just like to point out my view on the central piece of your deck, the Staff. I cannot tell you enough how much I love that card. It is a powerful card that helps give you advantage on the board and advantage through card draw. It is a wonderful way to help you execute other strategies, but the Staff, by itself, is not going to win you games. The only other way to win that I see is Devil's Play and for all you know you may have to use it for removal so your opponent doesn't kill you. I just don't see this deck killing your opponent before your opponent kills you on a regular basis. Dont get me wrong, Staff is great, but it's not a card you build a deck around.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Abrupt Decay/Dreadbore is great removal in your colors, Rakdos' Return may be useful, Chromatic Lantern will be extremely great for manafixing/rampint, and if you decide to cut green, or just go five color, you can splash blue for Supreme Verdict... I have no clue whether that would actually work, but with Chromatic Lantern, it seems plausible.
In the Standard forum, new card discussion is only allowed in this forum. Warning/Infraction issued.
-mabberman
it can be flashbacked, and you should use it other than winning burst of damage.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
Took your advice.
-4 Forest
+1 swamp
+1 Mountain
+1 Rootbound crag
+1 Woodland cemetery
Mana is running smoother.
@SuperSpeed:
Rolling Temblor is a great utility/weenie/token sweeper, and its got flashback, thanks.
+3 Rolling temblor
-1 Tribute to hunger
-1 Barter in blood
-1 Abundant Growth
@The rest: Interesting replies, I will get back to you in a few hours from work, gtg.
Here is some pics to show what I mean by "Devil playing" the opponent and where I got the idea for the name of the deck, Staff of Devil.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
(Thanks for telling me how to do deck tags the right way, Goropeza)
----------------
@Baladi
Bolas fits great in this deck, I need to test it with the current mana base. Im not worried about after SB word spreading, mainly because I don't play FNMs or anything, this is only a fun hobbie for me.
So far I can deal with inkmoth through the staff and tribute to hungers, luckily he will be gone next month, though it hasn't been much of a problem.
Burn is still a threat though, the deck wants the game to go long, and that gives burn decks time to get to their spells, so far tribute to hunger helps some with life gain. On the third pic posted, I got +10 by tributing 2 phyrexian obliterators. Had to get rid of four of them in that game without loosing a single permanent to its ability.
@Goropeza
3 Terminus has proven good so far, terminus is hardly the card that usually gets me out of trouble. Its good when things get out of hand, but so long as i get my land drops, I can keep removing creatures turn after turn (Theoretically speaking). Against agro/weenie/G.ramp/zombie/etc decks, rolling temblor is proving itself worthy. Will check out whipflare.
Mana base has been fixed, how does it look now? Still 21 lands though, why? Because I need removal on a consistent basis, as long as I keep removing creatures there is no rush to get to the 6 land mark for Nin. I don't know, sometimes I find myself even discarding lands to faithless looting. Would need to test with a higher mana count to see how smooth it runs, but so far it works great.
The staff by itself does win games, look at the pics I posted, forget the devil play, just look at my hand, there is so much removal in my hand after a Staff is set that keeping board control is easy, specially with lots of flashback spells. The staff can keep pinging all day long, but it rarely happens, because usually a devil play ends the game 2-4 turns after the staff. Now, I do use Devil Play for removal without a second thought, because its got flashback and I got 4 of them, after a staff is set getting to the rest of the DPs is easy so I don't hesitate to kill a birds of paradise on T2 with a DP. My aim at all times is to keep the board clear. I don't know, I built a deck around this card and I love it so far, if it weren't working great I would have already started building something else, but I think this thing has potential, cant wait to see what rotation brings.
I love the deck so far, Im working on 5 mono color versions for it just to see what I come up with, but thats another subject.
@Pickleishopeless
Bonfire was maindeck, but it never did great things for me, and usually it got stuck in hand since the field is usally empty when I draw it for miracle. Dunno, deck works better without it so far, I Sbed it in case I come up against heavy token decks.
@Moz.the.blessed
4 Devil Plays is a must, and I do use it for spot removal if needed rather than for direct damage. It can kill small and big creatures. I only use it for direct damage when I got enough lands to kill in 1-2 turns (T1 cast, T2 flashback for kill) the rest of the time its just another removal spell. But still, 4 is a must, have tested with less and its no good relying just on the staff for damage, too slow and could give my opponent time for some miracle.
--------------------
Well thats it so far, will keep testing, with current deck list things are running much better.
Hardest matchup so far is U control, not because I cant deal with it, it is usually 50/50 depending on who makes the one and only mistake in the game, but it is the hardest matchup because how long a match takes.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Pic1: Mid game pic, to show how the deck can hold its own on just 5 lands.
Pic2: End of the same game, to show how the deck outpaces the opponent after a staff.
Pic3: Killed Arbor elf off devil play, Terminus for 3 undying creatures, ORinged Wolfir, Then Terminus for 2 more creatures, thats why his grave is almost empty.
Pic4: Notice his graveyard full of creatures, had to use & flashback my first 2 devil plays and Rolling Temblor. Oringed his two key enchantments. Then ended with a 15 dmg Devil Play followed by a tap of the staff.
All kills via staff : )
Now to keep testing, pardon double posts.
EDIT: Pic5: U/B Heartless Summoning. 2 wurmcoils (and 4 babies), 2 Grand architects and 2 Myr Superions down the drain. Notice Devil Play on grave, had just hit for 11 (At that stage it could be flashbacked for 9 to kill for 20 if my opponent has not been gaining life).
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
RG Tron
UR Delver/Twin
Grand Architect
Standard:
Junk Tokens
Not sure you have run into anything of the sort, but you could run increasing confusion as a 1 or two of in the side to combat infinite lifegain or something along those lines. Other sideboard materials I would consider include something strong with lifelink, a nicol bolas just because, and torpor orbs to combat enters the battlefield triggers. You could also try elixir of immortality to get some key cards back in your library, though I'm not sure you would want to.