I know we're all excited for RTR spoilers, but being that this is a multicolored card, we ought to discuss it. Demagogue brought this up in the Dimir evaluation thread, where he said "It's like a Vampiric Tutor that gives you a little extra for the harder casting cost."
I have to agree, but I would go a little bit further, and suggest that the "little bit extra" is actually a LOT extra. Tutors are awesome, and tutors that can also fix your next few draws are essentially unprecedented. The statisticians among us can probably do better than I can working out what the expected life loss is if you're digging for a single card, but I can't imagine it's bad enough for only 1% of the people on this forum to be running this card, is it?
I played it in my cube when I first started. I also have played it in my classic cube. It's a nice card, but I think I like other U/B cards a little better. If it was a mono black card we'd be talking.
I love this card. Casting it in legacy just feels like cheating. I feel giddy and filthy ever time I have done it. That said, in cube where decks tend not to be comboing off on t3-4 I doubt that it would be all that stellar.
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Baleful Strix is such a solid value dude though. He is kinda a 'Seal of Doom Blade' that also draws a card when it comes into play.
2-for-1 every time
Good blocker/deterrent
Holds swords really well
Tezz, sure I guess.
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That's awesome, Jim, thanks so much. So on average you're paying 1.21>x>1.1 more life than Vampiric Tutor, but you get the benefit of setting up your next 4 draws as well. I think that's probably well worth the extra U in the mana cost, given how awesome playable tutors are. I think I'm going to test this out.
I'm disinclined to play the card because there are a couple annoying control players in my group that like to take 3 minutes to think in between their draw step and main phase. Resolving this card would take a week!
Something that others haven't mentioned yet, is that another benefit that Vault has over Vampiric Tutor is that it is both Blue and Black. That means that it can be exiled for effects like Force of Will and Misdirection. Sure, it's not a major benefit, but at times it is relevant.
The effect you get from the Vault for 2 mana is great, no doubt. What keeps it out of most cubes is the limited space in the UB section.
I like the card quite a bit but finding room for it is really hard, considering the competition. I'd say you can start looking at including Vault when you include 5 or more UB cards. Tezzeret, Tog and Finkel are a lot better. Oona and Baleful Strix are direct competition. Personally, i'd run Wydwen as my #5.
I run both Wydwen and Vault in my cube, and I have to say Vault is the far superior card as far as things go for me.
So the upshot is that it's almost always a better Vampiric Tutor for an extra blue mana. Seriously, why are people not playing this card in small lists?
Because it's not better than Tog, Finkel, Tezz or Strix if you support the artifact deck.
I could see running it in the #5 slot, if you're not looking for a mana rock in Dimir, which most unpowered cubes are.
I ran it back in my classic cube for a long time, and it didn't really feel like a better Vamp Tutor for UB at all. I'm usually tutoring for a single specific card, which often means I'm paying more than 2 life to find it, and costing 2 mana (and being 2 colors!) is a pretty significant drawback. Saying that it's "almost always a better Vamp Tutor for an extra blue mana" is pretty disingenuous, because doubling the mana cost and making it gold makes it a very different card. A 2-color 2-mana card is a rough starting point for net card disadvantage.
I don't know this card exists. It looks really good. But to be honest, with Gatecrush coming, I'm probably waiting to see where my guild section is heading after that first.
I'm usually tutoring for a single specific card, which often means I'm paying more than 2 life to find it, and costing 2 mana (and being 2 colors!) is a pretty significant drawback. Saying that it's "almost always a better Vamp Tutor for an extra blue mana" is pretty disingenuous, because doubling the mana cost and making it gold makes it a very different card. A 2-color 2-mana card is a rough starting point for net card disadvantage.
All good points. Since you're the one who has a lot of experience with the card, did you find that the ability to manipulate your draws isn't as good as I'm imagining it to be?
The average draw is going to be pretty good in the cube anyways. It's a nice added effect, but it didn't usually justify the extra mana spent on the spell. And a lot of the time, I'm grabbing a Tinker, which shuffles my library.
I don't know this card exists. It looks really good. But to be honest, with Gatecrush coming, I'm probably waiting to see where my guild section is heading after that first.
This statement is a big contradiction to how high you value being able to look 3 cards deep, be it on Brainstorm / Ponder vs Preordain or more recently on the new Jace's -2 ability.
Considering that all those cards are 1-mana, 1-colored spells that aren't card disadvantage, I hardly see any contradiction here.
I think if your (U/B) section isn't built around the artifact deck (mainly no Tezz) it is probably worth trying. Some people like it some don't. It also depends on how strongly your cube supports things like reanimator/twin/other combo decks since it is really strong in those decks.
You know, this might be weird but I like LDV more than I like Tog...
Ok, hear me out on this, it's not that Tog is bad, I love Tog, it's just that I like tutors more. Not only that but Tog is also a 1/2 for 3, and while he's not really a 1/2 for 3, he requires valuable resources to become larger than that and doesn't have a lot of protection naturally. He evades burn to some extent, but to dodge a Lightning bolt he requires either 2 discards or 4 cards from the grave, or some mix of that... Potentially you can get a 0 for 1, but you have to be pretty late in the game for that, and every time to protect him from something, you're losing future pumps making him more of a 1/2. Now that's just Lightning Bolt, and something like Dismember is even harder to dodge, requiring 8 cards from the grave if you want to protect from it. That's a lot of investment.
As for being an engine for things like Reanimator, he's good for that, but we're getting plenty of other engines that allow us to discard. Also, when playing reanimator the outlet is important, but so is the Reanimator spell, and LDV allows you to get one or the other, if not both on some occasions, and that's huge.
More so, we all tend to run the other tutors such as Enlightened and Mystic, and those are more restrictive on most occasions.
Psychatog is an absolute beast. He's a game-ending creature in the late game for three mana. In the mid-game, you can trade cards from your 'yard for your opponent's creatures and removal spells. He's really easy to cast and protect because he only costs three mana. And he's an enabler for discard decks of all kinds. It's the best Dimir card, and it makes this card look ridiculous by comparison.
And the reason why Enlightened, Mystical and friends are better than this card is because they're half the mana, only one color, and can tutor up the exact card you want without costing life, no matter where it is in your library.
You know, this might be weird but I like LDV more than I like Tog...
Ok, hear me out on this, it's not that Tog is bad, I love Tog, it's just that I like tutors more. Not only that but Tog is also a 1/2 for 3, and while he's not really a 1/2 for 3, he requires valuable resources to become larger than that and doesn't have a lot of protection naturally. He evades burn to some extent, but to dodge a Lightning bolt he requires either 2 discards or 4 cards from the grave, or some mix of that... Potentially you can get a 0 for 1, but you have to be pretty late in the game for that, and every time to protect him from something, you're losing future pumps making him more of a 1/2. Now that's just Lightning Bolt, and something like Dismember is even harder to dodge, requiring 8 cards from the grave if you want to protect from it. That's a lot of investment.
As for being an engine for things like Reanimator, he's good for that, but we're getting plenty of other engines that allow us to discard. Also, when playing reanimator the outlet is important, but so is the Reanimator spell, and LDV allows you to get one or the other, if not both on some occasions, and that's huge.
More so, we all tend to run the other tutors such as Enlightened and Mystic, and those are more restrictive on most occasions.
@Wtwlf: Except they're more restrictive and don't set up following draws to some extent.
You're also running Imperial Seal, a card that costs two life and is a Sorcery. I'd much rather have an Instant than a Sorcery for one extra mana when it puts the card on top of the library.
@Wtwlf: Except they're more restrictive and don't set up following draws to some extent.
You're also running Imperial Seal, a card that costs two life and is a Sorcery. I'd much rather have an Instant than a Sorcery for one extra mana when it puts the card on top of the library.
Yes, and I'm not saying it's a bad card by any means. I just think a Tutor is generally better.
The limited tutors are 1 mana and 1 color. And they don't cost me any life.
Seal costs 1 mana and it's not gold. And it never costs more than 2 life to get me any card I want.
Psychatog is a card that justifies its casting cost and the gold drawback. The Vault never felt like it did.
You're also running Imperial Seal, a card that costs two life and is a Sorcery. I'd much rather have an Instant than a Sorcery for one extra mana when it puts the card on top of the library.
That one extra mana is a pretty big deal when it's in a different color.
Don't get me wrong, I love tutoring. I just have a cutoff in quality, and that cutoff is a lot higher in multicolor. I don't run Seal either because of of its sorcery speed. Although it would be interesting to see SCDs on the lesser tutors like Diabolic Intent, Beseech the Queen, Grim Tutor, Rhystic Tutor or Spoils of the Vault because I'm a sucker for talking about junk. Maybe have a ranking contest for tutors or something
I know we're all excited for RTR spoilers, but being that this is a multicolored card, we ought to discuss it. Demagogue brought this up in the Dimir evaluation thread, where he said "It's like a Vampiric Tutor that gives you a little extra for the harder casting cost."
I have to agree, but I would go a little bit further, and suggest that the "little bit extra" is actually a LOT extra. Tutors are awesome, and tutors that can also fix your next few draws are essentially unprecedented. The statisticians among us can probably do better than I can working out what the expected life loss is if you're digging for a single card, but I can't imagine it's bad enough for only 1% of the people on this forum to be running this card, is it?
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2-for-1 every time
Good blocker/deterrent
Holds swords really well
Tezz, sure I guess.
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I run both Wydwen and Vault in my cube, and I have to say Vault is the far superior card as far as things go for me.
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I could see running it in the #5 slot, if you're not looking for a mana rock in Dimir, which most unpowered cubes are.
I ran it back in my classic cube for a long time, and it didn't really feel like a better Vamp Tutor for UB at all. I'm usually tutoring for a single specific card, which often means I'm paying more than 2 life to find it, and costing 2 mana (and being 2 colors!) is a pretty significant drawback. Saying that it's "almost always a better Vamp Tutor for an extra blue mana" is pretty disingenuous, because doubling the mana cost and making it gold makes it a very different card. A 2-color 2-mana card is a rough starting point for net card disadvantage.
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All good points. Since you're the one who has a lot of experience with the card, did you find that the ability to manipulate your draws isn't as good as I'm imagining it to be?
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I'm going to second this
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Considering that all those cards are 1-mana, 1-colored spells that aren't card disadvantage, I hardly see any contradiction here.
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Ok, hear me out on this, it's not that Tog is bad, I love Tog, it's just that I like tutors more. Not only that but Tog is also a 1/2 for 3, and while he's not really a 1/2 for 3, he requires valuable resources to become larger than that and doesn't have a lot of protection naturally. He evades burn to some extent, but to dodge a Lightning bolt he requires either 2 discards or 4 cards from the grave, or some mix of that... Potentially you can get a 0 for 1, but you have to be pretty late in the game for that, and every time to protect him from something, you're losing future pumps making him more of a 1/2. Now that's just Lightning Bolt, and something like Dismember is even harder to dodge, requiring 8 cards from the grave if you want to protect from it. That's a lot of investment.
As for being an engine for things like Reanimator, he's good for that, but we're getting plenty of other engines that allow us to discard. Also, when playing reanimator the outlet is important, but so is the Reanimator spell, and LDV allows you to get one or the other, if not both on some occasions, and that's huge.
More so, we all tend to run the other tutors such as Enlightened and Mystic, and those are more restrictive on most occasions.
And the reason why Enlightened, Mystical and friends are better than this card is because they're half the mana, only one color, and can tutor up the exact card you want without costing life, no matter where it is in your library.
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Have you ever cast a psycatog?
You're also running Imperial Seal, a card that costs two life and is a Sorcery. I'd much rather have an Instant than a Sorcery for one extra mana when it puts the card on top of the library.
Yes, and I'm not saying it's a bad card by any means. I just think a Tutor is generally better.
I was joking. I just found it funny that you picked the hands down best dimir card to critique in favor of a card that most lists don't play.
The limited tutors are 1 mana and 1 color. And they don't cost me any life.
Seal costs 1 mana and it's not gold. And it never costs more than 2 life to get me any card I want.
Psychatog is a card that justifies its casting cost and the gold drawback. The Vault never felt like it did.
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That one extra mana is a pretty big deal when it's in a different color.
Don't get me wrong, I love tutoring. I just have a cutoff in quality, and that cutoff is a lot higher in multicolor. I don't run Seal either because of of its sorcery speed. Although it would be interesting to see SCDs on the lesser tutors like Diabolic Intent, Beseech the Queen, Grim Tutor, Rhystic Tutor or Spoils of the Vault because I'm a sucker for talking about junk. Maybe have a ranking contest for tutors or something
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